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Bayonetta 2 Review Thread - Metacritic: one billion-hit combo, buy it kids

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O

Ozium

Member
Have any of the reviews touched on the amount of unlockable content? There was a shit ton in Bayo 1 and I'm expecting the same or more for Bayo 2..
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Just play the game and don't read about it, hardly anyone's ever going to talk about the actual gameplay.

Exclusivity > Sales > Sexism > She almost landed on a poor squirrel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>combat/enemy design, etc...
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Wut. Bayonetta 1's gameplay was discussed to hell and back when it was released. This genre in general has a lot of very good input about gameplay features and the discussion tends to follow whenever a new game within it is released.

However, the reason I'm not discussing gameplay is that I'm trying to stay as far away from gameplay-related spoilers as possible. I just read the Gamespot review to see what the co-op thingy was all about because I'm too curious to stay away. Also, nobody here (save for some people importing, I guess) has actually played the game, and those who have probably don't want to risk spoiling anything either, so... why would there me a discussion about gameplay now?

Sure, sexism will probably be part of the discussion within the OT, but I'd imagine it will be dwarfed by people going "HOLY FUCKING SHIT DID THAT JUST HAPPEN!?!?!?" within spoiler tags as is customary with Platinum Games.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
The Technomancer said:
Not surprised at Polygons review, even if I think I'm going to disagree with them. Part of the problem is, from what I've seen, Bayonetta games do suffer from an inconsistency. Character animation, voice acting, and character design are all communicating a hyper-sexualized character who is entirely in control of their own sexuality. However the camera movements do then undo some of that by reverting back to almost voyeuristic male gaze swooping and zooming. I've tried to figure out how to reconcile that with the more positive sexuality on display in every other aspect of the character and I don't think I really can, it really does seem like one aspect that's not on the same page as the rest. However the Polygon review is frustrating because I feel like it misses that point, while I'd like to think Gies has his heart in the right place, I think he is too quick to jump on "sexy = bad" at the moment.

What's fascinating about Bayonetta is that she works as a character because she's so much more then "a sexy female who kicks ass". Out pop-culture, geek pop-culture specifically, is littered with that archetype and its still done for the favor of a largely male audience. She even (moreso in the first game then what I've seen of the second) has a dominatrix like affect going on, and that is (often) the literal definition of submissive indulgence from a position of apparent dominance. But the way she carries herself and the way that she acts and reacts communicates a character who is in complete ownership of their actions and their appearance, something that is very often missing when it comes to "sexy kick-ass heroines"
Click to expand...

You seem to paint sexuality as a war between males and females, and i don't get why.
 
B

Bold One

Member
Acid08 said:
Alright it's 5am here so I'll attempt to put something at least a bit coherent out there.

Bayonetta is a female main character, that's pretty unique in the gaming world. When discussing sexualization of female characters(and really female sexuality in general) I would much rather hear from women because they can actually express a point of view that is wholly unique. Women who play games have probably seen countless examples of blatant sexism and sexualization across hundreds of game. Men can of course recognize this too but it actually doesn't affect us the same way at all. Women have to constantly put up with the bimbo characters with completely unrealistic proportions. Or the completely wasted potential of female character ex: Miranda from ME having her ass be the focus instead of her character(thank you fidelio for that perfect example). Women barely ever get a reprieve from this it's so prevalent in games. The quality female characters are pretty few and far between.

So when a character like Bayonetta comes along that may be challenging these conventions I absolutely want to know more about it from their perspective. Men don't have to deal with that kind of thing, we have thousands of strong male characters that get to be the hero. We don't have the same perspective on this thing. Men see Bayonetta and automatically think "whoa she kicks ass, great female character!" Basically because she's different from the norm that she's automatically better. That isn't enough though, it deserves more critique than that. And I firmly believe that is a critique that women are way better suited to give because it's so specific to their particular perspective on their representation in games. What Bayonetta means to them is way more important than what any dude has to say on the subject.
Click to expand...


That reasoning is flawed, narrow and simplistic

Everyone should be able to critique the game and whatever themes it may carry.

Thats like saying only Black people critique San Andreas or only Asians can critique Sleeping Dogs because both demographics are just as marginalised in the gaming space.

Either everythign is open to critique from all aspects or nothing is
 
K

Ken Masters

Banned
GAF loves to hate polygon but they are 100% right about the hyper sexualization of women in this game, it's laughable in most cases in this game actually
 
D

DrDrizzay101

Member
Stardust_Comet said:
I don't pretend to act like males get off without being sexualised either. Pretty seems to be the standard of making a character "important" or "sympathetic". .
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I agree with your whole post, but I especially appreciated this line. It's a weird truth of so much media/fiction, especially since there isn't really a correlation IRL.
 
A

Acid08

Banned
Bold One said:
That reasoning is flawed, narrow and simplistic

Everyone should be able to critique the game and whatever themes it may carry.

Thats like saying only Black people critique San Andreas or only Asians can critique Sleeping Dogs because both demographics are just as marginalised in the gaming space.

Either everythign is open to critique from all aspects or nothing is
Click to expand...
Nothing more broad minded than saying ALL OR NOTHING

I'm saying the critique from women here matters more than the critique from men. Because it obviously does.
 
G

gelf

Member
Punished_Snake said:
Not all reviews. Some websites reviewed the first one separately. Why they don't review the entire package like The Orange Box?
Click to expand...

To be fair many places did review those separately too. And I seem tI recall it was Portal receiving the game of the year awards not Orange Box.
 
B

BrokenEchelon

Banned
Ken Masters said:
GAF loves to hate polygon but they are 100% right about the hyper sexualization of women in this game, it's laughable in most cases in this game actually
Click to expand...

Isn't it fumny that the people who bitch about this ignore every other facet of Bayonetta's strength and wit so they can just talk about how offended they are by her ass? It's sad.
 
O

Ozium

Member
OK.. can someone tell me what the controversy around Captain Toad is?

For one thing, why is there controversy around a game starring Toads?
 
S

sora87

Member
Polygon showing yet again they simply don't have a clue.
Good to see dem nines and tens raining in from actual trustworthy reviewers.
 
T

TheSlySoul

Member
Ozium said:
OK.. can someone tell me what the controversy around Captain Toad is?

For one thing, why is there controversy around a game starring Toads?
Click to expand...
I have no clue, it was because people judging the game early and Toadette is a "damsel in distress" despite us knowing nothing how the game plays out. So pretty much people jumping to conclusions.

Kade said:
Another quality review thread.
Click to expand...
Indeed, I miss the days when we could just enjoy a video game for being silly.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
BrokenEchelon said:
Isn't it fumny that the people who bitch about this ignore every other facet of Bayonetta's strength and with so they can just talk about how offended they are by her ass? It's sad.
Click to expand...

I mean, it would be pretty easy to do a Bayonetta style character badly (or worse, depending on your opinion). Gaming is littered with female characters who, for whatever traits the writers supposedly give them, I have trouble playing with because its just so clear that someone was bending over backwards to give the audience some eye/emotion-candy. But Bayonetta doesn't feel like that character. Aside from the aforementioned camera problem everything about Bayonetta's demeanor communicates that she does everything because she wants to, not because you the viewer might find it sexy or attractive
 
E

Effect

Member
toastyToast said:
D-D-D-DAMN

Seeing all these day of release embargos lately and then Platinum straight up not giving a fuck with close to two weeks before release is some cut throat type of shit.

They already know.
Click to expand...

You mean Nintendo. They're the publisher here. They're the ones that decide when the embargo ends. They've been having these early embargo for a lot of their games lately.
 
S

slit

Member
Ken Masters said:
GAF loves to hate polygon but they are 100% right about the hyper sexualization of women in this game, it's laughable in most cases in this game actually
Click to expand...

You say that like it's something bad.

Seriously though, only prudes worry about that. Most media is filled with it anyway.
 
F

Feindflug

Member
Ozium said:
Have any of the reviews touched on the amount of unlockable content? There was a shit ton in Bayo 1 and I'm expecting the same or more for Bayo 2..
Click to expand...

The question is did the reviewers play the game enough or even cared for the unlockables? they sure had a lot of time for that considering how early the review codes were sent to them. Platinum games are meant to be played more than once to have a full grasp on the game's mechanics and content.
 
shanafan

shanafan

Member
Reishiki said:
Sometimes, I wish I could be half the woman Bayonetta is.

Might have to finally get a Wii U...
Click to expand...

You won't be disappointed. The Wii U has the best first party library currently being offered in my opinion. The Pro controller is excellent, and with the addition of GBA games in the eShop, the Wii U is a solid choice to any gamer's library.
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
Acid08 said:
Alright it's 5am here so I'll attempt to put something at least a bit coherent out there.

Bayonetta is a female main character, that's pretty unique in the gaming world. When discussing sexualization of female characters(and really female sexuality in general) I would much rather hear from women because they can actually express a point of view that is wholly unique. Women who play games have probably seen countless examples of blatant sexism and sexualization across hundreds of game. Men can of course recognize this too but it actually doesn't affect us the same way at all. Women have to constantly put up with the bimbo characters with completely unrealistic proportions. Or the completely wasted potential of female character ex: Miranda from ME having her ass be the focus instead of her character(thank you fidelio for that perfect example). Women barely ever get a reprieve from this it's so prevalent in games. The quality female characters are pretty few and far between.

So when a character like Bayonetta comes along that may be challenging these conventions I absolutely want to know more about it from their perspective. Men don't have to deal with that kind of thing, we have thousands of strong male characters that get to be the hero. We don't have the same perspective on this thing. Men see Bayonetta and automatically think "whoa she kicks ass, great female character!" Basically because she's different from the norm that she's automatically better. That isn't enough though, it deserves more critique than that. And I firmly believe that is a critique that women are way better suited to give because it's so specific to their particular perspective on their representation in games. What Bayonetta means to them is way more important than what any dude has to say on the subject.
Click to expand...

Thank you for taking the time to write this post. I mostly agree with you, but there is one thing in particular that I would like to address.

Your post kind of puts men and women into two separate chambers when we're all actually living in the same society. So, stating that men aren't affected in the same way might be true, but we are obviously also HEAVILY affected by sexism in game, even if it is in a somewhat different way. This is exactly why I love Anitas video series as well, but I digress. Men also constantly have to put up with bimbo characters with completely unrealistic proportions and Miranda butt-shots, and I don't think it is wise to ignore that fact considering this is still a male dominated industry where unfortunately men have to do their part in opening it up toward both female workers and a female consumer base.

Like, I get what you're saying - men in games have plenty of power fantasies they can relate to, but honestly I can't relate to Nathan Drake at all. That guy isn't my guy, I don't want to be him at all. I'd fucking rather be Bayonetta to be honest, and that fact matters quite a bit in this discussion especially because I'm NOT female. This character actually makes me stand in awe of women, while male characters almost never impress me in video games.

Aside from that, I will concede that I am probably slightly more interested in what women have to say about this simply by virtue of them being fewer in number and perhaps providing a different viewpoint, but honestly - the articles I've read that were written by women about this series haven't been very different at all from articles written by men, signalling to me that this is a pretty universal issue that both genders can relate to equally, even if both are affected in different ways.


On another note, I think it bears repeating about the camera work in Bayonetta 1/2:
The camera sure does throw "male gaze" at her, but it's always her intentionally showing off, never is she put in a position where it's out of her control. Of course, it's just a game and the designers can do whatever, but I still think it's an important distinction to make. Now, this would be completely irrelevant generally, BUT, whenever Bayonetta does something with emotional impact (saving Luka/Cereza etc) the camera instantly focuses on her face and expression and nothing else. Never are the camera movements out of place based on what is actually happening. You don't get a crotch shot when she's worried about Jeanne being abducted, in those scenes she is presented in very stoic poses that put Conan to shame. The times you get a crotch shot is when she's provoking the angels with her sexuality, possibly being a symbolic criticism of anti-sexual puritanical religion. I think many people miss out on this part of the context of her sexuality. That's what she does in her taunts as well, which should tell you a lot about the intent behind her actions.

Now, I've only played the demo thus far but compare the first cutscene to how she acts about Gommorah breaking free. Instead of showing off her body, she instantly goes into a sarcastic version of anger, I guess? Stating "I don't like pets who disobey their masters". What would be the point of taunting a demon by being sexual? Granted, the full game might contain instances like that.
 
M

MrNyarlathotep

Banned
Ken Masters said:
GAF loves to hate polygon but they are 100% right about the hyper sexualization of women in this game, it's laughable in most cases in this game actually
Click to expand...

But for every pro-feminist viewpoint that Bayonettas overt sexuality is demeaning, there is also held the counterpoint misogynist viewpoint that they are uncomfortable with her overt sexuality because women aren't supposed to act like that.

It's almost like human sexuality isn't some easily labelled bucket that is easily defined and categorised, or that differing ideologies can at times bothy agree on a topic from entirely opposite ends of a spectrum.
 
P

Punished_Snake

Member
gelf said:
To be fair many places did review those separately too. And I seem tI recall it was Portal receiving the game of the year awards not Orange Box.
Click to expand...

But the first Portal got 90 on metacritic while the Orange Box got 96 http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-orange-box, huge different. In the US and far as I know both Bayo games are included in the package. So it doesn't make sense why they don't review Bayo 1 and 2 as a package.
 
S

Stardust_Comet

Neo Member
Boguester said:
I agree with your whole post, but I especially appreciated this line. It's a weird truth of so much media/fiction, especially since there isn't really a correlation IRL.
Click to expand...

Thank you~

I honestly don't get how it correlates with RL either. I can get media wanting to give us an "ideal" beauty we can't live up to, but how did that translate into worth of sympathy?
 
M

Moofers

Member
It's nice to see some sort of validation for the game through these high numbers, but of course the reviews mean nothing when you've got a free demo out there that will tell you everything you need to know.

Can't wait!
 
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