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[jon bones]

my WiiU is ready.

i loved the first, and i'll love this - despite the cringeworthy design and embarassing manchildren-pandering antics of the star.

 

[BigDug13]

This has some of the best scores I've seen all year and it will probably be beaten out by freaking Destiny. :

You mean an exclusive game on the lowest selling console might not sell more than the most anticipated game of the year that was released on 4 platforms?!!

 

[Shengar]

Such as? I just looked at the PS3/360 MCs for 91+, none of them sold that poorly.

Really? Big releases? Which ones?

Grim Fandago is one such case
While it ranges between 100k-500k, it's most possible below 500k
I know it was different genre, different platform, in different time, but high metacritic score doesn't instantly makes people went crazy and buy it. I hope for Bayonetta wouldn't be one of this case.

 

[BY2K]

Good scores.seems to be another one of the good games from Platinum Games.

Platinum Games good games: Bayonetta, Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising

Platinum Games bad games: MadWorld, Anarchy Reigns, Wonderful 101

so with this one PG will have more good games than bad ones. lets hope Korra don't make it a draw again.

 

[Scoops]

I want this game so bad

Buy it.

 

[StuBurns]

I feel bad about agreeing with Polygon but the oversexualization of Bayonetta has always been off putting to me, moreso than with other female characters. Maybe it's better in the context of the full game but I have never been able to get past it and I don't know why it's so uniquely upsetting to me with this particular character. That said I wouldn't penalize the game heavily in a review for it, especially when the game sounds so great.

No idea about in Bayo 2, but she's a greatly empowered, potent sexual force in the first game, but it's not an exploitative thing really. She teases people with it, but she's wholly the one abusing it, not having it abused by others.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Honestly, they should run an ad ASAP with some choice quotes from those reviews. It's the only chance the game has at any sort of success, which sucks.

Gies review quotes would sell some copies for sure.

 

[Acid08]

Oh come on now

why do people still feel the need to bring up the tired - and almost certainly erroneous - assertion that teenage boys are the primary game playing audience?

Assassin's Creed and MGS both have a massive female following and conversely Bayonetta and Tomb Raider have a massive male following.

Your stance or position seems to be of an inately divisive one where there is no convergence of ideas. the fact is female perspective on the issue will probably be as diverse as men's. There have been plenty of female posters in this thread alone. And I suspect the upcoming days and weeks will lend themselves to a lot of articles by women on the matter.



Sexualization and sexuality are two different things. And I imagine different women will view it differently depending on culture, experiences and natural affinity.

Why do you think that men aren't still the primary target audience for games? You have a couple examples of things moving in the right direction but in the grand scheme of things I don't think what you're saying is true at all.

And I hope you're right about there being more articles from women coming. I hope that even in the face of all the GamerGate harassment that we will still get their perspective because this industry desperately need it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. There have been several articles posted from female games writers that view Bayonetta as an empowering character. The reason there aren't more is simply because the industry with all it's underlying societal sexist tendencies unfortunately doesn't have more female writers (and I'm not trying to blame the outlets themselves, here).

Also, this isn't just about what women think, it's also about how this game changes (or doesn't) mens' view of females. In that sense, it is VERY relevant for men to discuss this issue as well, as they are a part of what causes sexism in society.

I'm saying that it's wrong there aren't more. I'm saying it's wrong that so many reviews of this game are by men. There need to be different perspectives in games and there aren't.

And honestly, yes, this should mostly be about what women think. What they have to say on this subject is far more important than what men have to say, full stop.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

I feel bad about agreeing with Polygon but the oversexualization of Bayonetta has always been off putting to me, moreso than with other female characters. Maybe it's better in the context of the full game but I have never been able to get past it and I don't know why it's so uniquely upsetting to me with this particular character, maybe it's just the character design. That said I wouldn't penalize the game heavily in a review for it, especially when the game sounds so great.

Maybe you could try paying more attention to how immensely detailed her outfit is etc, rather than how sexualized it is? I completely understand this sentiment if that was the only thing she had going for her, but man is that outfit thematically amazing in the context of the game universe.

I'm saying that it's wrong there aren't more. I'm saying it's wrong that so many reviews of this game are by men. There need to be different perspectives in games and there aren't.

And honestly, yes, this should mostly be about what women think. What they have to say on this subject is far more important than what men have to say, full stop.

I agree on the first part, but I completely disagree with you on the second. Would you care to explain why you think so rather than asserting a "full stop"? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

Well I already pre-ordered obviously but its still nice to see positive scores.

Thanks nintendo for making it possible when no one else would.

And thanks platinum for just making it.


Personally I thought Tropical Freeze was the GotY up until now but I guess we'll see.

 

[$h@d0w]

I hate to say it but Gies is spot on.

This is one step too far.

 

[Stardust_Comet]

Different people have different taste, but most of the time it goes like that considering most character designer are male.
But, in Nathan Drake case though, he seems stand in the middle ground.

That sums it all up really.

I can understand that this is why most females don't get treated as true characters and more as sex symbols. But I can get tired of people jumping on the tiniest thing to claim that a female character is sexist because it's a female character they're doing it to. Yet if a male character has that same trait, most people just don't care.

 

[KingSnake]

Except setting it up for PC is a complete nightmare that I've never managed to solve. Gah.

That's not true. All you need is an adapter. It's so easy and it's a joy of using the Wii U Pro Controller on PC:

 

[TheSlySoul]

Platinum Games bad games: MadWorld, Anarchy Reigns, Wonderful 101

I would classify MadWorld and Anarchy Reigns are experimental games that can be fun if you are willing to give it a shot. Wonderful 101 is hot mess though...

 

[Acid08]

That might be largely true for Western games, but it's not as true for Japanese games. Many Japanese character designer try to pander to everybody - fangirls are a big and important audience to them.

I wouldn't say every game that has a male in it is just for men. I admittedly play JRPG more than Western ones, and there's quite a lot of times where men are pretty much only have personalities built around by what they think females will find endearing or sexy if the game was targetted at a female audience.

But yeah, for a majority of the games, that is otherwise true.

These are good points and yeah, you're right, I was mostly speaking on Western games.

 

[immortal-joe]

It's only a matter of time before Platinum get major success, with one of thier games. It's going to happe, if not with Bayonetta 2.

Microsoft, assuming they decide to give their game a push. They'll make sure the hype is loud and clear.

A game with male heroes, swords and giant beasts is much easier to push than a character action game staring a female witch who wears her own hair as a suit.

 

[Snkfanatic]

This is a lovely gif haha

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I hate to say it but Gies is spot on.

This is one step too far.

He would know.

 

[Courage]

Wonderful 101 is Platinum's best game.

Don't fight it guys. You know it's true.

 

[Majukun]

Can we please stop talking about sexualization in this topic too?

this thread is about review scores for bayonetta,if you want to talk about sexualization in games,there are already threads for that

 

[wsippel]

Different people have different taste, but most of the time it goes like that considering most character designer are male.
But, in Nathan Drake case though, he seems stand in the middle ground.

Right, though Bayonetta's character designer is female. So is the Wonderful 101 character designer, by the way - Platinum apparently has several female character designers. And surprisingly, one of the designers most (in)famous for sexy girls, Kinu Nishimura, also happens to be female.

 

[KooopaKid]

Okami ):

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

"Total sales for the game remained under 600,000 total units by March 2009, and was named the "least commercially successful winner of a game of the year award" in the 2010 version of the Guinness World Records Gamer's Edition"

Not sure if that 600,000 figure is for the PS2 version only or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckami#Sales

Do you have other examples?

Grim Fandago is one such case
While it ranges between 100k-500k, it's most possible below 500k
I know it was different genre, different platform, in different time, but high metacritic score doesn't instantly makes people went crazy and buy it. I hope for Bayonetta wouldn't be one of this case.

At least it seems to be quite rare. Okami in from 2006 and Grim Fandango from 1998.

 

[Exile20]

BAYONETTA 2: Game Of The Year?: http://youtu.be/gOJTTvDztEo

 

[Bold One]

I hate to say it but Gies is spot on.

This is one step too far.

No one should ever agree with Gies on anything ever

 

[Xpliskin]

Good job nintendo&platinum games.

I really hope this sells loads so Bayo 3 becomes reality.

 

[Kiru]

He would know.

I found this weird quote via google:

I only know about him because I listened to the "Rebel FM" podcast he did with Anthony Gallegos, and there were quite a few times where he came off like a complete tool.

It's been, like, four years since I dropped that podcast, so my memory of specific things is mostly gone. But there are two instances that stick out to me. The first is Gies him bringing a guest on the podcast who went out of his way to brag about how often his girlfriend gave him blowjobs, a diversion that Gies had no qualms with and seemed to encourage. The second is Gies constantly using the phrase "vaginal companion" to refer to his girlfriend, because--as he explained on the podcast--the word "girlfriend" just sounded silly to him.

Like, was he joking there or serious about that "vaginal companion" stuff ? Anyone got that podcast ?

 

[TheGraykid]

What you're doing is merely looking at her through a glance.

Her whole persona is defined as she doesn't care what you or others think, as she has her own destiny. She likes to flaunt herself because she knows she's that good.

Also, I've seen many people comment that she's apparently unattractive due to her odd proportions. How can that be a male gaze? That's like drawing a stickman with boobs, zoom on them, and call it a male gaze.

What you are doing (and essentially many people) is that you are looking at her without context.

Who is she flaunting for though?! Is it for the random angel things shes about to perform a special move on and kill? I think it's for me and you. Why?

I think we can both agree that she is meant to be attractive, despite random outlier opinions.

And I think the context of this game being made by mostly a bunch of dudes for mostly a bunch of dudes makes this feel a certain way. It feels like the attempt of some guys to empower the type of characters that they've been making for forever, but they don't go all the way in doing it. It feels like they attempt to empower her by saying that she makes the choice to be a sex object rather than it being a thing thrust upon her, but the thing is that Bayonetta is a fictional character, so she doesn't really chose anything, she is whatever her makers want her to be. So here we are again with a female character defined by her sexuality and pretty much nothing else. In a world where that is exactly what most female characters are. I think that context will make this game feel creepy to some people.

 

[silva1991]

Game of the forever!

 

[RoboPlato]

No idea about in Bayo 2, but she's a greatly empowered, potent sexual force in the first game, but it's not an exploitative thing really. She teases people with it, but she's wholly the one abusing it, not having it abused by others.

I've only played the demo of the first game so I'm freely admitting that I do not have all the information necessary to reach a full conclusion. Just as an outsider who has mostly seen trailers, it's actually made me want to play the games less.

But hey, I enjoyed Lolipop Chainsaw so I can be won over.

 

[Benzychenz]

Good scores.seems to be another one of the good games from Platinum Games.

Platinum Games good games: Bayonetta, Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising

Platinum Games bad games: MadWorld, Anarchy Reigns, Wonderful 101

so with this one PG will have more good games than bad ones. lets hope Korra don't make it a draw again.

W101 is their best game currently.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Who is she flaunting for though?!

For herself because she can and no one else, which is the point.

 

[Subaru]

No idea about in Bayo 2, but she's a greatly empowered, potent sexual force in the first game, but it's not an exploitative thing really. She teases people with it, but she's wholly the one abusing it, not having it abused by others.

Exactly!

The problem with Polygon's review is that Bayonetta is a fucking feminist.
Just because we aren't used to see females who enjoy to be sexy - because of our machist society - that the game is machist. On contrary, she uses her sexuality to make FUN of her enemies.

I understand that Bayonetta is a game made by and for men, but it's so hard to see such a STRONG female characters that I feel sad that these guys don't get it.

Btw, great scores, but I was expecting. Bayonetta 2 seems to be the GOTY.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

For reference, all of Platinum's meta scores:

Bayonetta 2 - 91 (WiiU)
Bayonetta - 90/87/84 (360/PS3/WiiU)
Vanquish - 84 (360 and PS3)
Metal Gear Rising: Revengance - 83/82/80 (PC/360/PS3)
MadWorld - 81 (Wii)
The Wonderful 101 - 78 (WiiU)
Infinite Space - 75 (DS)
Anarchy Reigns - 73/71 (360/PS3)

But the reviewers can't play PG games, they're so hard!

Spoiler

Joke about the W101 review thread

 

[trixx]

I don't get this fanaticism about one review. He scored the game what he thought it deserved same reviewer gave Link between worlds a 9.5 last year so it isnt some nintendo bias either.
He thinks the character is oversexualized, okay valid point. I don't think that should doc marks of game score but he felt it should, so whatever.

Anyways, day 1.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Nice scores. Sucks that the game is gonna sell like absolute crap.

 

[Prine]

Incredible reviews, cannot wait for Scalebound

 

[Shengar]

that comic has been proved wrong so and so many times

It alls boild down to authorial intent and people taste, I know that, but the main point is just you can't bring "equivalency" let alone a false one unless the authorial intent is proved.

Right, though Bayonetta's character designer is female. So is the Wonderful 101 character designer, by the way - Platinum apparently has several female character designers. And surprisingly, one of the designers most (in)famous for sexy girls, Kinu Nishimura, also happens to be female.

Yeah, many sexy character designers from Japanese are female., so it all boils down to authorial intent. People just shouldn't use the sexualization so easily, especially as accusation.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Nice scores. Sucks that the game is gonna sell like absolute crap.

A great game that no other publisher wanted to fund that sells like crap.....is still a great game that gets to exist.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

That's not true. All you need is an adapter. It's so easy and it's a joy of using the Wii U Pro Controller on PC:

I was referring to figuring out the bluetooth setup. Requiring an adapter already makes it infinitely harder than any of my other PC gamepads

Also, from the Gamespot review:

If you manage to work your way through all that, there's Tag Climax's two-player online co-op to master too. Not only does Tag Climax let you do battle with enemies not in the main game, it's actually also one of the best ways to acquire halos (Bayonetta 2's in-game currency), if you've got the chops for it. You can wager halos against your online partner as to who will get the highest score, with larger wagers upping the difficulty as well as the potential reward. Then, at the end of six rounds of furious battling, a winner is declared. Shared abilities like Witch Time and Umbran Climax ensure that there's an element of teamwork to these cooperative battles, and on higher wagers, they can get incredibly challenging.

I had no idea what this mode was going to be but that sound friggin' amazing! I'm all about custom difficulty and linking it to the wager sounds really satisfying. That said, I wonder how important farming haloes will end up being. Both the first game and W101 had you left with nothing to spend them on pretty quickly. I hope there are some ridiculous money-sink hidden weapons to acquire, just to have something to work towards via this co-op mode.

 

[Phil S.]

What an unexpectedly high set of scores (unexpected to me)! Hype increased!!!

 

[MrBadger]

To be honest, I'm shocked and pleased by the fact that Polygon is the only reviewer that marked it down for being sexist and every other reviewer's just been handing it fantastic scores.

 

[RoboPlato]

Exactly!

The problem with Polygon's review is that Bayonetta is a fucking feminist.
Just because we aren't used to see females who enjoy to be sexy - because of our machist society - that the game is machist. On contrary, she uses her sexuality to make FUN of her enemies.

I understand that Bayonetta is a game made by and for men, but it's so hard to see such a STRONG female characters that I feel sad that these guys don't get it.

Btw, great scores, but I was expecting. Bayonetta 2 seems to be the GOTY.

This post makes me want to give the character/series another shot. I'll shut up now.

 

[Sadist]

Reading through the Gamespot comment section... well, shoot.

And what's this about the Wonderful 101 being bad? Nuh-uh. The game might be a bit.. strange to directly understand, but it's good. If you call MadWorld bad... that's debatable.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I found this weird quote via google:

Like, was he joking there or serious about that "vaginal companion" stuff ? Anyone got that podcast ?

Disgiesting.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Who is she flaunting for though?! Is it for the random angel things shes about to perform a special move on and kill? I think it's for me and you. Why?

I think we can both agree that she is meant to be attractive, despite random outlier opinions.

And I think the context of this game being made by mostly a bunch of dudes for mostly a bunch of dudes makes this feel a certain way. It feels like the attempt of some guys to empower the type of characters that they've been making for forever, but they don't go all the way in doing it. It feels like they attempt to empower her by saying that she makes the choice to be a sex object rather than it being a thing thrust upon her, but the thing is that Bayonetta is a fictional character, so she doesn't really chose anything, she is whatever her makers want her to be. So here we are again with a female character defined by her sexuality and pretty much nothing else. In a world where that is exactly what most female characters are. I think that context will make this game feel creepy to some people.

She is flaunting at her enemies, yes. She shows that she doesn't care about them because they can't put a dent on her.

While I don't really find her looks offputting, her design is definitely not meant to be the "usual". Her height is 12 Bayonetta heads and her limbs are unusually long. Go ask a random person and you'll get more "she looks odd" than "she looks sexy" due to her proportions.

Listen to what you posted. How can something be a sex object if she doesn't see herself as one? So what if the developers are males - Bayonetta's character is not hindered at all. Also your last post becomes a slurry of nonsense in attempt to make her sexualization bad - seriously, why are you arguing about her being fictional? Holy fucking shit.

I also have something to say about internet/blogger "feminism" but this isn't the thread for it.

 

[Stardust_Comet]

I gotta commend the OP for managing to keep up with all the new reviews being posted all over the place on this thread in between random comments.

 

[Shengar]

Do you have other examples?



At least it seems to be quite rare. Okami in from 2006 and Grim Fandango from 1998.

I don't have any number, but Planescape: Torment supposed to have lukewarm sales compared to its metacritic. There are any other examples, but they just can't come up to my mind.

 

[KooopaKid]

BAYONETTA 2: Game Of The Year: http://youtu.be/gOJTTvDztEo

Fixed.

Nice scores. Sucks that the game is gonna sell like absolute crap.

If Okami managed to sell 200,000 copies in North America in 2006, maybe Bayonetta 2 can?

 

[MoGamesXNA]

Will there be a thread for Bayonetta 2 that's exempt from gender debates/discussion? I'm a relic from the 90s that doesn't find that side of the modern gaming discourse to be entertaining, enlightening or worthwhile.

I'm assuming that I'm going to have to avoid all NeoGAF B2 threads from now on damnit. It's a shame as the game looks godtier. WiiU purchase incoming.

 

[StuBurns]

I've only played the demo of the first game so I'm freely admitting that I do not have all the information necessary to reach a full conclusion. Just as an outsider who has mostly seen trailers, it's actually made me want to play the games less.

But hey, I enjoyed Lolipop Chainsaw so I can be won over.

I found her to be a really enjoyable character. I was surprised how much I enjoyed the story, as I expected nothing of it. In that first game, she becomes something of a reluctant guardian of a little girl, and her pull between being this sexy superhero, and this responsible adult who now has someone she has to take care of was actually pretty interesting. Similarly, the main male character, Luka, is torn between his hatred for Bayonetta on a moral level, with his attraction to her.

I guess essentially, while being held up as a sexual figure, she's far from vapid, and she's not used as a source of eroticism or anything.