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Bayonetta 2 Review Thread - Metacritic: one billion-hit combo, buy it kids

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It is their chance to draw Bayonetta 1 fan from XBOX360 and PS3.

Super Smash can target only their old customers.

Apparently you were actually serious. I get so tired of this stuff, from both sides. Either paid for good reviews or "check bounced" because a game got bad reviews.

Of course there are issues here, and real life examples (most notably with the impetus for Giant Bomb's creation). But to have this knee-jerk reaction about every game is so overblown. I'm sure there are no shortage of conflicts of interest but I don't believe for a second this practice is remotely common.
 

walnuts

Member
91 after 31 reviews, wow, that's excellent! Really happy to see that

Now Nintendo, buy Platinum Games and the Bayonetta Franchise!

I agree that Nintendo should buy the franchise, and co-own it with PG, but PG should stay independent, there's always the risk that they wouldn't be able to do the games they wanted, and only develop games about Nintendo franchises.

Look what happened to Camelot, since Nintendo bought it, they have only been doing Mario Tennis and similar games, no Golden Sun or the games they wanted to do. Just like Microsoft did with Rare, Nintendo did it with Camelot.

Of course it doesn't mean that would happen, the guys at Monolith are doing the games they want, so Atlus with Sega. Anyway, I prefer and independent Platinum Games, better for all gamers.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I wasn't talking about you mate, but the general sentiment of that statement.
I really like Bayonetta, but I have seen posters on this forum where it was seemingly okay to compare them to neo-nazis or other extreme analogies.

Bayonetta can be as exploitative as any other character depending on the experiences, and personal viewpoints of their own sexuality, which seems to be projected outwardly in a sort of "oh-you-don't-get-it-because-your-sexual-perception-is-not-like-mine".
I can agree with this, not in terms of what I have witnessed on GAF (I have mostly stayed away from such debates) but insofar as such outright blanket condemnations tend to arise in regard to the topic in our society.

Display of sexuality, no matter how subtle or extreme, is not inherently servility. It need not be passive to be self-possessive. It is true that an aspect of sexuality is interplay of gratification, and a large avenue for this exchange is in visuals, both of body language and direction of presentation. Yet gratification does not hold exclusive power over the avenue of visual exchange, and the narrative space can also be used for communication, for personal expression.

Both can be active in the avenue at once, so a view of sexual attributes and expressions can be something given to serve another, and a such viewing-upon can also be something demanded of another to serve oneself, even within the gratification it gives others. It can be both at once, and if it serves one or the other party or both mutually is determined by context. Context also determines the measures by which these benefits distribute to admiration or degradation, to the opening or narrowing of perspective of identity and respect between both parties (viewing all sexual gratification as inherently manipulative/animalistic/evil is an undue assumed coloration no matter how often such things are the case) in their minds and desires.

The simple fact of presentation in itself does not provide all the information required for a full and truthful conclusion on these matters. In real life productions involving real people there are even further complications between the influence of society and power of employers in entertainment, both "honest" and corrupt, and the actual personal ambitions and self-directives and philosophies of performers and where they got them from and how. Even dark negative realities in such realms do not wholly invalidate the positive realities possible.

So, in a creative work such as this where no actual person is the character conveyed and our greatest concern is how it might impact the minds of those who look upon it, which is something primarily directed not by the work itself but by the conversations we have around it, I find outright condemnations exceedingly narrow-minded, simplistic, and dishonest to the full spectrum of how we all as humans end up actually treating our sexuality in our self-esteem and in relating to others.
 
I kind of agree partly with the Polygon review in the sense that Bayonetta (the original and the sequel apparently) did put me off with its crude designs and mannerisms. It felt tacky and unnecessary. Bear in mind I'm not someone who gets fazed by stuff like this but something about it simply made me lose interest in buying the original. I just couldn't bring myself to buy it even though I really enjoyed the DMC games. I would not have put so much weight on that deterrence quantitatively though especially if the gameplay was solid.
 

AdanVC

Member
Ok so it's 5:30 am and I made this.

SickChubbyBilby.gif
 

Stardust_Comet

Neo Member
When I first commented in this thread, I was quite surprised for the lack of gender/sexuality debates going on.

Then I come back later in the day, and I see I commented too early that I missed the start of it.

Now this feels like a proper Bayonetta thread.
 

Sadist

Member
I agree that Nintendo should buy the franchise, and co-own it with PG, but PG should stay independent, there's always the risk that they wouldn't be able to do the games they wanted, and only develop games about Nintendo franchises.

Look what happened to Camelot, since Nintendo bought it, they have only been doing Mario Tennis and similar games, no Golden Sun or the games they wanted to do. Just like Microsoft did with Rare, Nintendo did it with Camelot.

Of course it doesn't mean that would happen, the guys at Monolith are doing the games they want, so Atlus with Sega. Anyway, I prefer and independent Platinum Games, better for all gamers.
Camelot is owned by Nintendo? I don't think that's the case.
 
I'm posting in a thread about Bayonetta 2 reviews...

Fuck off with posting shitty demeaning gifs, please.

Yes, you are - and the one outlier review discussed sexism in videogames, thus the thread discussing sexism in video games. My point still stands.

Edit: Yes, really. You are actively trying to stifle discussion by posting idiotic image macros.
 

Shane

Member
Geis is the feminist that gaming deserves...

I'd hope that everyone posting in this thread is a feminist.

As for the game/console itself...real life - learning to finally drive - is higher on my list at the moment. The Wii U is easily the first console I'd buy given the opportunity. Such a great range of titles.

Oh you mean the reviews that are calling the game sexist?

I'm only aware of one review that mentioned the characterization and camera direction left them uncomfortable at times. Even then I didn't see it calling it sexist directly.
 
That Polygon review is a sad display of boneheaded puritanism. Way to completely miss the point of Bayonetta's character.

Bayonetta is all about power and poise and confidence. The way she exults in her sexuality and wields it as a weapon is entirely consistent with her persona. She's never ever reduced to a sexual ornament for male characters or the audience. She claims equal standing with, or flat out dominates, every man she meets. She's isn't the damsel in distress who waits for the studly hero to sweep her off her feet and save the day. She pulls her own weight and takes care of her friends. Bayonetta is the superhero everyone else relies on. Her sexuality is self-gratifying and intimidating, not inviting, and that's one of the core strengths of her character.

It's worth mentioning that Bayonetta's designer is a woman who took inspiration for Bayonetta's extended proportions from fashion illustrations, whose figures are tall and elegant to emphasize physical grace rather than sexuality. If Bayonetta was supposed to pander to a straight male audience, where are the balloon tits and other stereotypical features of the woman-shaped background props that countless games employ for no other reason than cheap sex appeal? Why the bizarre spider-like limbs and long neck, exaggerated qualities that enhance her acrobatic movements and statuesque poses while she fights? Her design complements her actions, which complement her personality, which complements both.

Bayonetta is a fully realized character, possibly the only self-actualized female protagonist in complete control of her sexuality that the entire medium has to offer. Shame on Arthur Gies for misrepresenting Platinum's great work and failing to celebrate such a progressive character. Shame on Polygon.

Your reasoning is very solid and I think you're right in a lot of ways. But something you can't dismiss, is how it makes people feel when they're playing this game, which is entirely subjective.

And I'm mostly talking about this part in his review:

It's also the kind of game that left me asking how many times and how many different ways developer Platinum could run a camera up the main character's spread legs and cleavage.

For some people, and I might have to include myself in this, this just gets too uncomfortable after a while. Zooming in on her crotch, doesn't emphasize her strength and her using her sexuality as her strength. No, that's just zooming in on her crotch. And sure, if it's once or twice in the whole game, I get that it's part of making fun of the stereotypes. But doing it over and over? I feel like we're beyond the point of making fun anymore and just doing it for the heck of it.

You don't have to agree with me and I don't expect you to. Since I think this is a very personal opinion and everyone has to decide this for themselves. But I'm glad Polygon is pointing this out for those who are concerned about it.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I agree with people saying it's "Bayonetta" zooming on her crotch. She wants to flaunt it.

Your reasoning is very solid and I think you're right in a lot of ways. But something you can't dismiss, is how it makes people feel when they're playing this game, which is entirely subjective.

and that's fine

just don't turn it into some form of informed critique against sexuality when the person doesn't even know the character

it's like pokemon. It's fine if you only like generation 1, just don't be that guy who is an expert of "Pokemon Design" and claim the new mons aren't good because of your "informed facts".
 
For some people, and I might have to include myself in this, this just gets too uncomfortable after a while. Zooming in on her crotch, doesn't emphasize her strength and her using her sexuality as her strength. No, that's just zooming in on her crotch. And sure, if it's once or twice in the whole game, I get that it's part of making fun of the stereotypes. But doing it over and over? I feel like we're beyond the point of making fun anymore and just doing it for the heck of it.

You don't have to agree with me and I don't expect you to. Since I think this is a very personal opinion and everyone has to decide this for themselves. But I'm glad Polygon is pointing this out for those who are concerned about it.

That's perfectly fair, but I'm having a hard time seeing how that is sexist because it makes some people uncomfortable? It just means that those people have a problem in one way or another with overt female sexuality being on display (which in and of itself may or may not be a product of a sexist society).

vvv- Well I mean, why not? Few people here have played the game and the other reviews mostly just agree that the game is fucking amazing. So, like, what else is there to discuss here?
 

Bold One

Member
Boy this escalated quickly, its now a full blown discussion on gender and sexuality.

Majority of game protagonists are a sexulaised power fantasy ideals, I find no difference in topless Kratos running around in a skirt to Bayo really. On the surface there is really no difference.

What I think takes people aback is the innate use of sexuality in the combat mechanics of Bayonetta, everything she does in combat is fetishized to a degree that is ludicrous at times.

I don't think its fair to label anyone who acknowledges this as 'narrow-minded' or 'ignorant'.
 

walnuts

Member
Camelot is owned by Nintendo? I don't think that's the case.

My mistake, it's second party. But since they are with Nintendo, they only have made Mario Golf and Mario Tennis, Golden Sun is the only exception.

Edit: checking the Wikipedia page, they only did Shining Force games with Sega and Golf games for Playstation. Forget everything I said about Camelot. I probed I had no idea it all about this.
 

Sesha

Member
Maybe Capcom should have hired Platinum to make the DMC reboot instead of NT since one of their stated goals was to have games in the series reach 90+ on metacritic.

And remember Team Little Angels is largely the same team that worked on the original DMC, which revolutionized the action/hack and slash-genre at the time and kickstarted the extreme/stylish action sub-subgenre in the first place.

oh yeah wait Platinum doesn't sell because there's this silly narrative that ignores the shit marketing their games get (and the Wii U). Something something self-fulfilling prophecy something
 

spekkeh

Banned
That Polygon review is a sad display of boneheaded puritanism. Way to completely miss the point of Bayonetta's character.

Bayonetta is all about power and poise and confidence. The way she exults in her sexuality and wields it as a weapon is entirely consistent with her persona. She's never ever reduced to a sexual ornament for male characters or the audience. She claims equal standing with, or flat out dominates, every man she meets. She's isn't the damsel in distress who waits for the studly hero to sweep her off her feet and save the day. She pulls her own weight and takes care of her friends. Bayonetta is the superhero everyone else relies on. Her sexuality is self-gratifying and intimidating, not inviting, and that's one of the core strengths of her character.

It's worth mentioning that Bayonetta's designer is a woman who took inspiration for Bayonetta's extended proportions from fashion illustrations, whose figures are tall and elegant to emphasize physical grace rather than sexuality. If Bayonetta was supposed to pander to a straight male audience, where are the balloon tits and other stereotypical features of the woman-shaped background props that countless games employ for no other reason than cheap sex appeal? Why the bizarre spider-like limbs and long neck, exaggerated qualities that enhance her acrobatic movements and statuesque poses while she fights? Her design complements her actions, which complement her personality, which complements both.

Bayonetta is a fully realized character, possibly the only self-actualized female protagonist in complete control of her sexuality that the entire medium has to offer. Shame on Arthur Gies for misrepresenting Platinum's great work and failing to celebrate such a progressive character. Shame on Polygon.

I don't fully agree with this. (Have to judge on Bayonetta 1 here, but) I think the TnA shots are definitely there for titillation, not to intimidate me as an audience (although cringing might be a form of intimidation, but in any case I'm not normally intimidated by things I crave, i.e. bewbs). In addition, Bayonetta is obviously a dominatrix. Whether you think a dominatrix shows women in power or is sexual wishfulfillment of submissive men depends entirely on your point of view.

I also think you must have a massive pole up your ass to let that deter you from the tremendous fun that the game provides, but still.
 
Maybe Capcom should have hired Platinum to make the DMC reboot instead of NT since one of their stated goals was to have games in the series reach 90+ on metacritic.

And remember Team Little Angels is largely the same team that worked on the original DMC, which revolutionized the action/hack and slash-genre at the time and kickstarted the extreme/stylish action sub-subgenre in the first place.

oh yeah wait Platinum doesn't sell because there's this silly narrative that ignores the shit marketing their games get (and the Wii U). Something something self-fulfilling prophecy something

Team Little Devils becoming Team Little Angels warmed my heart. DMC1 is still my favourite game in that franchise, however much I love the combat systems of 3/4.
 
Honestly, it's just a part of the job. You get used to it for the most part, though occasionally it boils over some times.

But really folks, if you dislike the Polygon review, the best thing you can do is not talk about it after you read it. When you do talk about it, it gets others to read it, which counts as more readers.

Read the stuff you like, ignore the stuff you don't, find reviewers who you can trust.
Yup. Don't think people going on and on about oh how stupid Jeff's 8.8 Zelda review, the 8/10 Uncharted 3 review or Polygon's own 6/10 review for Dragon's Crown did those respective sites any disfavors, at least in terms of hits generated. Not like it's that unexpected for Gies to miss the point of something or going off previous comments of his to simply have less of a taste for Platinum games, but unless he says something objectively, factually incorrect, there's no point getting worked up about how he feels as a reviewer.

Good to see the game's doing awesome regardless, the demo has me hyped. The port of the first game is meant to run as well as the 360 version, right? After this I really just have Vanquish, MvsC3
and Nuts & Bolts
keeping me from giving my Xbox to my family.
 

Sadist

Member
Maybe Capcom should have hired Platinum to make the DMC reboot instead of NT since one of their stated goals was to have games in the series reach 90+ on metacritic.

And remember Team Little Angels is largely the same team that worked on the original DMC, which revolutionized the action/hack and slash-genre at the time and kickstarted the extreme/stylish action sub-subgenre in the first place.

oh yeah wait Platinum doesn't sell because there's this silly narrative that ignores the shit marketing their games get (and the Wii U). Something something self-fulfilling prophecy something
Kamiya and the gang have no interest in Capcom anymore. Even if Capcom would have an interest in a partnership, they would be turned by Platinum. Capcom really stomped on their feelings apparently. Mikami and Inafune say the same thing.
 
Kamiya and the gang have no interest in Capcom anymore. Even if Capcom would have an interest in a partnership, they would be turned by Platinum. Capcom really stomped on their feelings apparently. Mikami and Inafune say the same thing.

Could you link to your source for this? I don't keep up with Inafune but I've never heard of Mikami, Kamiya or anyone at Platinum saying anything of the sort. I'm not suggesting they would work with Capcom, but this doesn't sound like something they'd say.
 

DevilFox

Member
Nailed it again

Time and word of mouth made Bayonetta associated with the best action game out there.
About Bayonetta 2, there has been a lot of talks about the game since the announce. This and the high marks ( > 91 on Metacritic, my bet) are hopefully going to help it and the included port of Bayonetta is a great move.
I wish Platinum Games and Kamiya could get the praise of more and more people.

This one was easy, though :p
 
I'd hope that everyone posting in this thread is a feminist.

As for the game/console itself...real life - learning to finally drive - is higher on my list at the moment. The Wii U is easily the first console I'd buy given the opportunity. Such a great range of titles.



I'm only aware of one review that mentioned the characterization and camera direction left them uncomfortable at times. Even then I didn't see it calling it sexist directly.

Actually sexist is used in that review, although it doesn't make any sense to me.

For more intense quicktime sequences, she'll even do a sexy pose as it flies off, with the absolute barest minimum covered.

It's sexist, gross pandering, and it's totally unnecessary.
 

Sbraik79

Banned
Just told my wife about the Polygon review and she said the following;

"People do know that female sexual confidence is an extremely good thing for feminism, dont they?"
 
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