WrenchNinja
Member
Im skipping it cause the demo didnt do anything for me. The hubbub with the IGF, QA and Fish's stupid comments just give me even more incentive to skip it.
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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"
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CecilRousso
Member
What did he say about a PC version?
Glass Rebel
Member
That remains to be seen.
There wouldn't be one because he wants people to play it on a comfy couch, even though this is just the way I play the PC version of Skyrim.
pslayer666
Member
Wow, as cool as Fez looks like, I now don't feel the urge to want to play this, after reading all this.
Not really for the 'Japanese games suck' quote as much as for all the other stuff this guy tweeted afterwards
Not really for the 'Japanese games suck' quote as much as for all the other stuff this guy tweeted afterwards
spindoctor
Member
People make a value judgement anytime they buy anything. If they do not want to support this guy because of his behavior, then he's the one losing out, not the consumer.
CecilRousso
Member
Oh well, if he doesn´t want the 500k sales that games like Super Meat Boy and Dungeon Defender hav gotten on PC, then he shouldn´t do a PC version I guess.
But as we saw with the original comfy couchers, Remedy, that comment probably doesn´t mean anything.
guidestone
Banned
What does "adult" mean exactly? And why do you seek for validation of a hobby from a larger public? In order to feel "secure" about enjoing yourselves and not worry about the Christian-inherited nonsense of downplaying the importance of pleasure (often dergotory referred to as "entertainment")? You cannot achieve "maturity" or the highest possible levels of pleasure in an interactive context without complex mechanics, which is the opposite of what people like Fez, Chen, Santiago, Blow, Yu etc. are doing.
http://stonebytes.blogspot.com/2011/09/thatgamecompany-sucks-at-making-games.html
Thoughtful analysis? Jesper Jull's book is destroyed here - http://insomnia.ac/commentary/the_simulacrum_is_true/
Yep, XBLA is an awesome platform. Great to have another game like Fez. Tommorrow Trials!
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Agreed. They're trying to express something in video games so much so that it doesn't really become a game anymore. Honestly, with the way they're doing, they wanted to be "special" but at the same time missing the idea.
It's not so much the desire to analyse videogames that puts me off this video, it's the fact the people in it are so retch-inducingly pretentious, it makes me want to play Metal Slug for 3 hours straight and purge any trace of Leigh Alexander from my mind.
The fact one of the guys has the job title 'Video Game Scholar' pretty much sums it up.
Well thats an awesome way to support game developers... >_>
Let me rephrase, the game industry is getting bigger and bigger, and more and more people are being educated to become game designers. Now, whether this is necessarily a good thing I'll leave in the middle, but I do believe that it is good to try to determine the psychology behind what makes gaming so interesting. What makes a good game good and a bad game bad. By all means, I am not downplaying the importance of pleasure, and neither is Zimmerman. In fact, pleasure and the homo ludens are key concepts in modern literature on game design.
What I essentially mean to say is that game design is a rather complex form of interaction design and currently most people are just trying to randomly do stuff and see whether it is engaging. There is benefits to gain from better understanding this engagement and we shouldn't downplay that. Music has theories, film and writing have theories, and on the other side computer science and interaction design have theories. So why not gaming?
Granted, I am a student in Human Media Interaction, so I'm sort of preaching my own profession here, but I do believe that understanding the world and human behaviour is important and we should never downplay science in that fashion.
I only bought it a few weeks ago, but it is an awesome game and not nearly as hard as some reviewers claimed it to be.
MarshMellow96
Member
Yes, up until 2005 all we cared about were the graphical capabilities of consoles, and no games were ever made on the cheap, Mr. Videogame Scholar..
Criminal Upper
Banned
I as well. Why should I support anyone who disrespects their peers?
Most academic-style game design writing is just not good. That doesn't mean academic writing about games has to be bad, but adopting academic affectations doesn't make something "adult", sophisticated or worthwhile either. Some academic fields (I won't name names) are awash in academic-styled garbage.
"Rules of Play" is not something I've read but paging through it on Amazon it looks ridiculous, even before you realize that the author is the guy behind "Top Chef: The Game". On page 75 the book is still concerned with defining what a "game" is and presents EIGHT different definitions and a chart comparing them. Get real.
First up, let me say that I definately agree that most gaming related literature is extremely weak when compared to other scientific fields. Though that is not a valid reason to ignore it, it should definately be taken with a grain of salt. But more importantly, I believe it should be further expanded and jjust become better. Game design studies, as a relatively new medium, are just starting to form and you cant expect an all defining literature work in such a short time.
Neither does following the basics of a theoriy authomatically result in a good game or vice versa. But again, learning the strong and weak points of user interaction like games can be a helpful guide for aspiring designers and I do see value there.
As for the book itself (since thats the reason I defended Zimmerman in the first place): You cant build any theories without defining the platform on which you're building your theory. "A Game" is really very undefined. I can ask you what a game is, and while you will have an idea of it, describing the entire set of games is quite difficult, if not impossible. So yeah, there is some literature review, but thats what science is built around so I see no rediculousness in that. In fact, its completely necessary, because by overviewing them, Zimmerman posed a good featureset of a game that I use very frequently when writing papers on games I've worked on for my university. Also, good theorists arent ncessarily the biggest names in the practical field, so I wouldnt hold that against him too much. Will Wright seems to like it at the very least.
IrishNinja
Member
someone's talking about stuff i don't like = let's have this thread locked
ps leigh alexander ain't so bad, ya'll
Glass Rebel
Member
I actually did buy it, but it really needed more work. The experience has definitely been marred by pretty serious technical hitches that I keep encountering.
So, despite my distaste for what he said, I still gave his game a shot and was left with a buggy game that forced me to restart and constantly throws problems in my face. After his negative comments on testers I suppose that isn't surprising.
I'm kind of glad to see people sticking to their word and skipping the game, though. It is a good game, no doubt, but his attitude is pretty shit AND they ultimately released a buggy game.
Then he should have made damn well sure that the game wasn't a technical piece of shit on 360.
IrishNinja
Member
to be fair, neither you nor i have ever seen illegal amounts of money.
Glass Rebel
Member
that's true. fucking lakers.
WrenchNinja
Member
That doesn't really work here.
It's actually very difficult to teach game design.
Mostly because it's a very, *very* "artistic" process in that there is no set of rules you must follow to be one.
The only thing you can learn, then, are the tools you will use, which is ridiculous because there are no set of tools everyone uses.
It's sort of like this: I can take classes to learn how to paint. It'll teach me all about color theory, brush techniques, perspective, etc. But none of that matters if I'm a shitty painter: I'll have all the "tools" mastered but with none of the talent.
Game design is in the same sort of boat, except there are no real tools. There are no "techniques" to game design because there doesn't need to be. It's a very fluid discipline that is strictly governed by gut feeling, exploration and inspiration (at it's core - the actual work also makes you work within budgets and such, but that's another thing that cannot be taught because it varies WILDLY between studios).
Level designers have it a bit easier because their work is more technical, in a sense: if they work with 3D levels, they can learn architecture, layouts, etc. to make their levels better in a technical standpoint, but depending on their goals much of their task revolves around reproducing realities.
Game designers can only study game mechanics, and those change and evolve all the time. The best tools a game designer has are good memory, analytical skills and a large cultural knowledge, which are all 3 not elements that can be properly taught, they are skills that are gained through studying other disciplines.
Trying to "compartmentalize" game design is a futile endeavor, seriously. I respect the indie guys because they typically have much more freedom to do what they want to do, but generally they produce a *lot* of shit because of their "artsy" mindset. Kind of like a lot of amateur filmmakers or photographers; there's a lot of crap out there, but they typically at least have the decency to call themselves amateurs.
I'll have to look at that book, but if it is indeed like that, I personally know an idiot designer who works like that. He's very, VERY bad, but hides behind all of that stuff to cover just how sucky he is. All his work is fluff, "emotional flowcharts", defining the "core" of the game through some emotional chart or some shit, and when it comes down to actually creating compelling mechanics or making a game "fun", it just doesn't work.
Team Filler
Member
Since this has turned into arguing about game design theory: A Theory of Fun
Shotgun Kiss
Member
A friend of mine bought this yesterday, and I watched him play it. I was really impressed, and I'd love to buy it myself, however having read through this thread, I'm not going to, as I'm not giving Fish my money.
Didn't Fish once say that if his game had been delayed one more time, he'd commit suicide? Maybe if enough of us refrain from buying it, he'll top himself. And then we can buy it afterwards. Haha.
In all seriousness though, if you do object to his attitude, vote with your wallets. Fez is great, but there's no shortage of other great games out there. Go buy one of those instead.
Didn't Fish once say that if his game had been delayed one more time, he'd commit suicide? Maybe if enough of us refrain from buying it, he'll top himself. And then we can buy it afterwards. Haha.
In all seriousness though, if you do object to his attitude, vote with your wallets. Fez is great, but there's no shortage of other great games out there. Go buy one of those instead.
MrGame&Watch
Member
I'm currently reading Rules of Play and it's definitely made for academia/university classrooms. If I ever teach game studies one day this or Theory of Fun will be the text I use
What is the source of this quote? Is it this? https://twitter.com/#!/PHIL_FISH/status/179798953913630720 Or is there another citation?
DragonSworne
Banned
Is Fez available in Japan?
If so, does that mean Fez sucks because it is technical Japan's game now? Meaning, a Japanese player can own it...
If so, does that mean Fez sucks because it is technical Japan's game now? Meaning, a Japanese player can own it...
Finaika
Member
That doesn't make any sense.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wait what
What the shit?
djplaeskool
Member
The greatest post to come out of this thread.
Edit: Don't have access to XBLA so can't get Fez though.
bernardobri
Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
kurtrussell
Banned
They have devalued their own product. What do you expect me to do?
After pre-ordering hacker evolution duality at full price and then 3 months later seeing it available in a bundle for next to nothing, I vowed to wait for the inevitable bundle for every indie game I'm interested in.
These bundles are not good for indie gaming on the whole - anyone with half a brain is just going to wait until it appears in a cut-price bundle.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Vyse The Legend
Member
The game is pretty fun, but the demo was a technical nightmare.
How'd this get certified?
How'd this get certified?
Game with decent prerelease following/word of mouth. Creator is inflammatory, not just at GDC, but also with re-entering FEZ to the IGF, even though its already won a IGF award about 3 years ago.
You know. The usual.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
You should read:
The Art of Game Design: a book of lenses by Jesse Schell.
I think it's actually the best game design book I've ever read.
Visualante2
Member
wrong thread. i wondered why it got so shit.
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