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The underlying reason Trump won: a large number of voters are living in fantasy land
- Thread starter boiled goose
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Hypocrisy isn't the word
StrikeNinja24
Banned
So the only way to wake them up is for their fantasy land to crumble and disappear before their eyes.
...Like I said, they don't care if they're wrong.
If you think you're right and don't care to verify that, you're being willfully ignorant.
More_Badass
Member
They do verify it. The news they use verifies their perspectives
Trust me, I've tried this with my dad. I asked him if he would even read articles from New York Times and WaPo, and he wouldn't because they only lie
How does he know they lie? Because anyone can see what's going on in the world and know that what those news sites write don't reflect reality
Yes, it's willful ignorance but it's not ignorance from not caring to seek out information. They do seek out information and news. But the news they seek out tells them that any other news source is biased, has an agenda, is lying, and reinforces that they are informed and intelligent for not going to any other news sources except the ones that are trustworthy
That's not looking for information, that's looking for affirmation.
If the first spot you look tells you to stop looking and you stop looking, how much do you actually care?
I'm not saying they have write dissertations on all these issues, but checking Fox/Breitbart and calling it good doesn't really qualify as effort IMO.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
Those types of right-wingers/conservatives live their lives for a fantasy about eternal life in heaven, so it's no surprise they live in one on Earth.
And I totally agree it's a waste of time to try and talk to them reasonably. Their facts exist outside reality. The only option is to vote progressive and pass progressive legislation. The neocons and right-wing idiots will huff and puff and talk about how they're locked and loaded and ready for armed rebellion and other such bullshit, but when they see the benefits in their daily lives, they'll stop complaining. Like children, they need to be forced to do things that are good for them.
All the "moderates" who sit around claiming "both sides are extreme" and other such non-sense should feel directly responsible for all the shit America has gone through because of right-wing policies, and for how slowly this country is modernizing. It's 2017 and the way some right-wing politicians speak you'd think we were back in the fucking Middle Ages. Pathetic.
And I totally agree it's a waste of time to try and talk to them reasonably. Their facts exist outside reality. The only option is to vote progressive and pass progressive legislation. The neocons and right-wing idiots will huff and puff and talk about how they're locked and loaded and ready for armed rebellion and other such bullshit, but when they see the benefits in their daily lives, they'll stop complaining. Like children, they need to be forced to do things that are good for them.
All the "moderates" who sit around claiming "both sides are extreme" and other such non-sense should feel directly responsible for all the shit America has gone through because of right-wing policies, and for how slowly this country is modernizing. It's 2017 and the way some right-wing politicians speak you'd think we were back in the fucking Middle Ages. Pathetic.
More_Badass
Member
They don't tell them to stop looking.
They tell them what those other news sources are say and then proceed to provide studies and stories and other news sources that prove that those biased news stories are wrong and have an agenda and don't have their best interest in mind.
You say checking Fox/Breitbart and calling it good doesn't really qualify as effort. But it does, to them. It's good to them because those are legitimate news sources with the sources and studies and history and experts to back up their points.
In all my years attending sola scriptura Evangelical and Baptist churches, no, they don't really talk about most of the history of the church. They only preach about events that happen in the Bible and modern day applications. But they do talk about how it's so hard to be a Christian, walking the narrow path, vigilantly watching out for attacks from Satan, and how the apostles led hard lives for their faith and you should be prepared to sacrifice everything as well. So they're ripe pickings for opportunistic talk radio hosts to jump and and reassure them that they're right, that there is a Satanic war on Christianity and it's happening right now.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
None of what you said means they aren't misinformed.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
Their single issue? Brown people of course.
That's fine if that qualifies as effort for them. It doesn't for me.
I'm just saying at some point you have to hold people accountable for what they vote for. If we're going to hug them and tell them it's okay that they voted for the Nazis because they didn't know any better, guess what they're going to do the next time a similarly appealing Nazi is on the ballot.
What is the functional difference between being misinformed and not bothering to seek out the truth?
LegendofJoe
Member
That, and abortion.
IchigoSharingan
Member
Willfulness
More_Badass
Member
Of course it doesn't because you and I and others know those sites spin and lie and misrepresent.
===
First, you have to think you're misinformed to seek out the truth. For me, that moment came after watching the live streams of the Ferguson protests and then seeing them called riots on Fox the next day
teruterubozu
Member
3 months later and we finally found a reason! lol! This is never going to end is it?
"The absolute real, real, positively true reason why Dems lost!! We have the TRUE answer!!"
"The absolute real, real, positively true reason why Dems lost!! We have the TRUE answer!!"
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, because I don't really give a damn about their willingness. I care about the end result.
These are the same people that call mainstream media (CNN) fake news but let mainstream media (Fox) do their thinking for them. At some point they have to play by the rules they claim to exist, and be held accountable if they don't.
teruterubozu
Member
Don't they though? Trump supporters seem pretty open about their perceived loss of standing in society, not to mention their blatant racism.
More_Badass
Member
Those aren't inherent aspects of humanity, but things taught and reinforced
They are that way. Talking about why isn't excusing that.
But they weren't always. Yes, it's because of racism and sexism and all those things. But to not say why and how means they're just doomed to happen again and again,
astroturfing
Member
Figuring out why and how is a waste of time if you aren't going to change it.
Icebergslim
Banned
Low information voters is what got us into this mess.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Who said they aren't racist and sexist?
I'm saying that part of the reason is religious type thinking. Privilege majority status is another separate reason-
The effect of each can be measured. Look at evangelical whites vs other whites
More_Badass
Member
Figuring how and why is never a waste of time. It always helps to be more informed and knowledgeable
In general, yes. In this case, we already know - there are a lot of shitty people out there. That's never going to change.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Nah. This is the point of the thread. Are all religious people bad? OR COURSE NOT.
What my point is that religious-type thinking has infiltrated politics. Just like there are objective facts about the nature of reality and the existence of deities or whether or not you have a personal relationship with Jesus, there are objective facts about whether black people are better or worse off than white people, or whether a politician lied or not, or whether Mexicans disproportionately rape people or not.
So... why is it ok to hold religious views completely unjustified by the facts or in many cases despite evidence to the contrary? How can we criticize those who do the same with political views? Either we care about objective reality and facts or we don't. Making exceptions for certain views, promoting "faith", etc. gives cover to those using such methods to justify horrible views.
You can change the number of shitty people. You don't have to entirely fix a problem to make progress (see gun control).
More_Badass
Member
It is never that simple. If you go "well people are shitty. Ain't never changing", then it won't and never will
The Artisan
Member
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
If humans naturally cared so much for facts and rationality, we wouldn't have any religion. Facts never mattered.
By the way, this is also a trait of all humans, not just ones with whom one might disagree politically. (however sometimes to different extents)
By the way, this is also a trait of all humans, not just ones with whom one might disagree politically. (however sometimes to different extents)
Glass Shark
Banned
Hypocrisy is a symptom, not the disease.
We can make progress without them. Get the Busters, the third party voters, and the "both sides" morons back in the boat and run an actual campaign in key states and the Dems will have no issues winning the presidency again.
boiled goose
good with gravy
We can and should win without them. I would rather not have 20 percent of Americans living in fantasy land.
They cause harm. Not only on national level but locally as well.
They won't leave fantasy land unless they are compelled to. Need to win elections to do that. Wasting time on lost causes doesn't help win elections.
Mr. Blonde
Member
I love the implicit assumptions made by many that
a)misinformed voters don't vote for democrats
and
b)democrat voters are all super informed about the issues
The fact is that there are more than enough misinformed voters on both sides and you're kidding yourself if you think that all or close to all of these voters are republican.
a)misinformed voters don't vote for democrats
and
b)democrat voters are all super informed about the issues
The fact is that there are more than enough misinformed voters on both sides and you're kidding yourself if you think that all or close to all of these voters are republican.
boiled goose
good with gravy
What lost cause? I haven't proposed a strategy.
Here's something for my fellow moderate religious friends to think about:
Any views you hold because they are comfortable? Because that's how you were brought up? Despite lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary?
Religious moderates provide cover for extremists. Don't provide it.
Promoting a society that values reason and evidence is not a lost cause. It's how you make progress.
"Both sides" basically.
These differences can be quantified.
Search issue by issue. A trend will emerge. Google what percentage of Republicans v Democrats think:
Obama is Muslim.
Sadam was involved in 911
Global warning is fake
Jesus was white
More guns means less gun deaths
Obama care different from aca.
Misinformation can be QUANTIFIED
LegendofJoe
Member
The European crazies came to America. It's too bad we can't do that again and send them to Mars or something.
encephalon
Member
Sounds about right. There seem to be a lot of people eager to take the election as an indictment of Hillary Clinton. "If she couldn't even win to trump, she's clearly a terrible candidate." And I think it is fair to say that she failed to inspire a lot of people, despite a progressive platform. But this election should be worrying to everyone, because it says a lot about the American people. It says that many people truly are living in an alternate reality. The facts don't match up with their world view, but that doesn't matter, because they don't believe in those facts. We also live in a world where a man could clearly describe sexual assault and still be awarded the presidency.
This election isn't an indictment of one candidate, it's an indictment of America.
This election isn't an indictment of one candidate, it's an indictment of America.
thehypocrite
Member
"Both sides"
Sure. But not even close to equal proportions. Even if we concede your point, you don't stop being wrong about your argument. You just look more intentionally dishonest.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
It kinda sounds like the argument is "only idiots vote for Trump so the reason Trump won is idiots voting for him". Ok, and?
RipperGrim
Member
He won because of Apathy. Nearly half of America didn't bother voting while fanatics were out in droves.
I think that's a large part of it, but I met the father of my best friend from college... Egyptian-born man who now owns a bunch of Dunkin Donuts and does fairly well for himself. I met him before the election at a family dinner and all he went on about was how good Trump was going to be for business owners. I think there are a lot of people who voted for Trump, know how his agenda will harm others, but just don't give a shit. Selfishness plays a part.
Read an article earlier today about a CPAC group trying to get young Bernie voters to reject socialism. Part of their ploy was to point out how the Soviet Union and Vietnam turned out. And also inform young voters that socialism means higher taxes. You know, if I had the chance to live in a socialist democracy like Denmark or Canada - where everyone has healthcare and access to education - I'd take the higher taxes.
Dreams-Visions
Member
It should be noted that churches are probably the best places in America to push for and drive voter turn-out and tend to do as told by their pastors.
The American political sphere is so polarized that actual policies--or even being objectively right or wrong--matter less than who or what your targets are. This is especially true of the alt-right ("they take him seriously, not literally"), but I feel religious conservatives have also been pulled into the gravitational well of identifying with an ethno-cultural supremacy that "happens" to be white and "happens" to be Christian, and anyone who hits against perceived enemies of that collective will have all other sins removed. The downside of this is that their actual goals and purpose as a voting block become meaningless outside of where it happens to correspond with thwarting these perceived enemies, which will likely over the long term lead to or hasten their institutional destruction as eg Evangelicals, into just being an ethno-cultural supremacist collective. GG.
Slackbladder
Member
Or it could be the Primacy Effect according to a Stanford Professor - BBC Did Trump win because his name came first in key states?
I just feel as though those "lost" into the gravity well of Breitbart are unrecoverable; they've crossed the event horizon.
The future of American politics will simply be a struggle to overcome their numbers and prevent more from joining them. I view them as overwhelmingly "gone". I don't want to call them the enemy, but...well, the output of evil and the output of stupid are quite often one and the same.
The future of American politics will simply be a struggle to overcome their numbers and prevent more from joining them. I view them as overwhelmingly "gone". I don't want to call them the enemy, but...well, the output of evil and the output of stupid are quite often one and the same.
Shit doesn't change in the 7 states that matter. After a republican president does fuck all for their specific lives, they switch to democrat. After that Democrat does fuck all for their lives, they vote for Trump.
I don't know where most of you hail from. I'm from the South. Up until a year ago, I lived in a moderately sized city in the South, and now in rural America. I am a minority. I've experienced my share of clearly overt racism, and I've had my share of experiences where I've suspected covert racism. I can't speak for the midwest and the middle of the country, but down here where its deeply red, politics sits comfortably next to your religious-affiliation, and your favorite sports team. It really is identity politics. I find most people don't have to be well-versed on any of these and generally aren't. You fall to tradition when you don't have the answers or response. There is a great belief that previous generations were tougher and stronger, and there's kind of a affinity affection for caricatures that are 'stubborn with a heart of gold'. Out here in the rural area, it was and is Trumpland. But alot of these people are simple working people. They don't have alot of restaurants, shops, or choices out here. The diversity of people is homogenous. It wouldn't be out of place if many folks could count the minorities they've met in person on one hand.
That being said, most of them are kind (at least to my face). I don't think they actively go around hating minorities, every minute of the day. When people talk about the complexities of racism vs. prejudice, or black/white/male/female privilege, etc, I suspect all of that goes over most their head. They simply don't devote much thought into these things...why would they? They don't see these people in their day to day lives. They view racism as the n-word, segregation, and Jim Crow. They view themselves as salt of the earth people, and don't understand the how what they do can be considered racist or at least off color. Their view of the world comes through television, or a short visit to a bigger city hours away. When folks say they're in a bubble, its true. Everything else seems like outside noise...Its a microcosm of how the whole of America views the happenings in other countries.
These people are used to humble living. It takes a big government act to have these people feel it. A tax credit is not something they're going to associate to a president or administration. Most of the time the stuff that would help them takes a longer time...ie Obamacare. Infrastructure spending isn't concentrated out here. They dont' rely on most of things big cities do, and thusly don't have as much affinity for things like the rest of the country. They vote because of tradition, they vote on simplicity, and they vote because alot of them aren't even challenged to think differently on the smallest of levels.
While I agree that there are some people Dems wont' be able to reach as they are entrenched. I think alot of these folks can be reached. It requires someone to bother to come out here though. When you hear Sanders, Ellison, or Dean talk about the 50 state strategy, its these places they're talking about. And if you ever come out here, you'll understand why some Dems were probably thinking it was a waste of dollars. How do you pull people together out here? You're not going to get big numbers as everyone is so spread out. Plus Its going to take some hard work trying to convince people to consider a different path. But I actually think it can be done over time. I was surprised by how many people saw a black man, and wanted to know his take on Black Lives Matter. cause this was their one shot at talking to a black man lol. Alot them had a different take on it after that conversation. Think about it this way - they dont' have the radio stations you do. Some of them don't have the internet or cable options you do...or at the price in some cases. Everyone in their circle of influence thinks like them. There is ONLY conservative Radio. If they have cable, they're getting Fox or CNN. There's not alot of drive to look for answers or different perspectives, and there's not alot of people to provide it. Inroads can be made down here...it might not turn into enough votes in the next 2 years...but if they hammer away at it they can. But there are way more conservative voices talking to them than democratic ones.
I'm not saying pity them. Or relieving them of responsibility, I'm just saying alot more of them can be swayed than I believe we're led to believe. its not going to happen through a televised speech solely though.
That being said, most of them are kind (at least to my face). I don't think they actively go around hating minorities, every minute of the day. When people talk about the complexities of racism vs. prejudice, or black/white/male/female privilege, etc, I suspect all of that goes over most their head. They simply don't devote much thought into these things...why would they? They don't see these people in their day to day lives. They view racism as the n-word, segregation, and Jim Crow. They view themselves as salt of the earth people, and don't understand the how what they do can be considered racist or at least off color. Their view of the world comes through television, or a short visit to a bigger city hours away. When folks say they're in a bubble, its true. Everything else seems like outside noise...Its a microcosm of how the whole of America views the happenings in other countries.
These people are used to humble living. It takes a big government act to have these people feel it. A tax credit is not something they're going to associate to a president or administration. Most of the time the stuff that would help them takes a longer time...ie Obamacare. Infrastructure spending isn't concentrated out here. They dont' rely on most of things big cities do, and thusly don't have as much affinity for things like the rest of the country. They vote because of tradition, they vote on simplicity, and they vote because alot of them aren't even challenged to think differently on the smallest of levels.
While I agree that there are some people Dems wont' be able to reach as they are entrenched. I think alot of these folks can be reached. It requires someone to bother to come out here though. When you hear Sanders, Ellison, or Dean talk about the 50 state strategy, its these places they're talking about. And if you ever come out here, you'll understand why some Dems were probably thinking it was a waste of dollars. How do you pull people together out here? You're not going to get big numbers as everyone is so spread out. Plus Its going to take some hard work trying to convince people to consider a different path. But I actually think it can be done over time. I was surprised by how many people saw a black man, and wanted to know his take on Black Lives Matter. cause this was their one shot at talking to a black man lol. Alot them had a different take on it after that conversation. Think about it this way - they dont' have the radio stations you do. Some of them don't have the internet or cable options you do...or at the price in some cases. Everyone in their circle of influence thinks like them. There is ONLY conservative Radio. If they have cable, they're getting Fox or CNN. There's not alot of drive to look for answers or different perspectives, and there's not alot of people to provide it. Inroads can be made down here...it might not turn into enough votes in the next 2 years...but if they hammer away at it they can. But there are way more conservative voices talking to them than democratic ones.
I'm not saying pity them. Or relieving them of responsibility, I'm just saying alot more of them can be swayed than I believe we're led to believe. its not going to happen through a televised speech solely though.
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