The Artisan
Member
the cancelling of preorders, i thought thats what you were talking about
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PS4 Pro Won't Support 4k BluRay
- Thread starter blastprocessor
- Start date
My post was a joke because people always say that they canceled their pre-order.
The Artisan
Member
oh. i didn't know it was a jokepost.
The_Spaniard
Netmarble
I only, only got one because I was able to get an outrageous deal on it.
they legit just stuck the same drive as the slim in it. it shaves manufacturing costs for sure.
TBH, actually having a Pro, there's hardly anything that scream premium about this machine rn. It really should have had a UHD drive, especially for the future.
Audioboxer
Member
I actually think some people pre-order something just to cancel it a minute later for the satisfaction of "pre-order cancelled" lol.
As for this topic, after now owning a Pro, and seeing sales I think I'll settle on, poor consumer move, good business move. I don't need it personally but it still can't be helped perception wise seeing MS offer it and Sony not is weak. Business wise they've proven its worked though as clearly those caring about it haven't turned up in big enough numbers that see the Pro flop out of the gate.
If Scorpio had been launching around the same time this might have been a bigger challenge. As it stands when Scorpio comes the Pros price can be even cheaper. In the meantime Sony have saved a tiny bit of money, which is all this is really about.
PS5 it is for 4K BR.
Nostremitus
Member
I wasn't going to get one. But my wife bought me one for Christmas along with a separate 4K Blu-ray player... So yeah... Lol.
This is where we disagree. I can't get to the original source, but according to this page Playstation 3 sales quadrupled back in 2007, when Sony cut the price from 599 to 499.
Of course, the pent up demand was there, but still, I don't think that at a highly price sensitive market a difference of 5% in price would lead to a reduction of less than a few percent (let's say 2%) in unit sales.
So, if Sony sold 300k Pros at $399 for a total revenue of ~$120M, at $419 the sales could have been something along the lines of 294k pieces for a total revenue of $123M. So far so good.
But, we also have to look at profit. Assuming that the UHD BD were included, the margin per piece would be the same (say, $10), so Sony would have made $60,000 less, not counting the lost game sales.
Furthermore, due to the production lines being pretty similar for standard and Pro models, the cost of the drive would have affected the BOM of every single standard PS4. In US alone, this would have resulted in lost profit of some $6M (assuming the very modest price difference of $5 per drive).
Do we have any evidence (like data about UHD BD movie sales) to support the assumption that the demand for UHD BD players is so huge, that PS4 Pro sales would have risen to make up the profit difference of six million bucks? In US? In December?
I would like to see your (or anybody else's, for that matter) calculations on how this would have been a smart move on Sony's part, considering that they sold more than five million PS4 consoles over the holidays globally, and maybe 20% of the were Pro models.
Nostremitus
Member
Why are you comparing a $100 difference to a $20 one and acting like it's remotely similar?
It's called price elasticity, and it applies to small price changes, too.
Compare:
16% price drop -> 300% increase in sales
5% price increase -> 2% drop in sales
Is the latter unreasonable?
Nostremitus
Member
When dealing with the difference between $100 and $20 to the average consumer, you don't really have an argument.
The latter is unreasonable because it doesn't prove anything other than that you make assumptions and run with them as if they are fact.
You assume that an initial price $20 more than what we got (which would be there as a value add since the system would be more capable, not to mention that this system is marketed as the more expensive and capable system and only marketed to people already willing to spend more than the PS4 Slim costs) would drop sales because a $100 decrease on a different system increased sales... The two scenarios are so completely different that you can't compare them in any meaningful way.
That $20 is not my assumption, it's The Artisan's. I'm only adding an assumption that higher price has an adverse effect on unit sales. This is not an unheard of concept in marketing literature.
But let me ask you: are you suggesting that a $20 price increase has no effect whatsoever on sales?
Nostremitus
Member
It depends on the market. The market for the PS4 Pro is not the same as that of the the PS3 or the PS4 Slim. It is specifically sold as the luxury version of the PS4. That means that it's entire market consists of people who are already willing to pay extra. In this market, an extra $20 that added functionality would have more likely increased sales instead of reducing them. Also, bear in mind that this would not be an increase if this were the case, it would simply be the cost since no other price point would have existed.
Other than a few outliers, the consumers who wouldn't buy it because of the $20, likely wouldn't have bought it anyway. They're more likely to go for the PS4 Slim.
Conversely, people who bought a PS4 Slim orXbox One S may have had incentive to buy the PS4Pro instead had it played 4K Blu-ray.
Well, I presented my assumptions and the calculations based on those on how -- in my opinion -- adding a UHD BD drive would not have been a profitable move for Sony.
I am interested in seeing calculations (and underlying assumptions) that indicate the opposite.
killatopak
Member
Not surprised with how popular digital media is.
Theonik
Member
Nah, $399 is very important to Sony. It's the pricepoint they feel consumers want for consoles and there is a big psychological barrier to even bump to $400.
In an attempt to try to inject something new into this conversation, I wonder if Sony's experience with SACD on PS3 isn't an instructive case study. It was the successor to a popular physical format with unquestionable advantages for the audiophile. There was more content available than there is currently for UHD Blu-ray. There are definitely people for whom it was a draw (I can speak to that, having purchased ten or so SACD albums to play on my PS3.)
Despite the advantages, it's pretty clear the overwhelming majority didn't care. The feature was ultimately removed as part of cost reduction and people moved en mass to digital music downloads that were objectively worse in quality but more convenient. Did Sony sell a few more consoles because of SACD? Sure, I bought a second early era PS3 when it was clear the feature was being removed, just so I'd have a backup. Did they lose many more sales until they got aggressive about price reduction? I think that's also well established.
Despite the advantages, it's pretty clear the overwhelming majority didn't care. The feature was ultimately removed as part of cost reduction and people moved en mass to digital music downloads that were objectively worse in quality but more convenient. Did Sony sell a few more consoles because of SACD? Sure, I bought a second early era PS3 when it was clear the feature was being removed, just so I'd have a backup. Did they lose many more sales until they got aggressive about price reduction? I think that's also well established.
Nostremitus
Member
You didn't present anything relevant, though? Like seriously, my response was a direct response to yours. There were no realistic calculations to respond to.
Your entire argument is based on a reality in which a lower cost option for people who don't want to spend extra money doesn't already exist.
The reality is the PS4 Slim is on the market. The PS4 Pro exists explicitly to be sold to people who don't mind spending extra money for more features.
Again, this would only matter if the PS4 Slim didn't exist.
MrCaliaztec
Member
Extra gaming features yes, extra multimedia features probably not seeing as how it is not in there. Many of us would prefer the most competitive price and not have it driven up by non essential media additions. Sony has been all about for the gamers, and its obvious that MS approach to an all in one media center is for the most part a very dead marketing strategy that didn't pull anything off for them. So kudos to Sony for having some insight into that.
OK, so obviously Sony didn't see the need to include a 4k blu ray drive.
Can we agree on the facts thought?
1. It's still a good value if you don't own a ps4
2. It's a good value if you own a ps4, but really want to get a locked 30fps in titles that drop frames, and if you have a very large (65+) screen that can easily show the benefits in resolution from normal living room distance.
3. There are a fuck ton of people who didn't buy this specifically because it doesn't have a 4k blu-ray drive. Sure maybe not hundreds of thousands, but that number exists, as is evident by the hundreds of people in this very thread who said they didn't buy it because of this.
Can anyone argue with any of these points?
I feel like this is just where we're at. The value of a pro is very situational imo.
Can we agree on the facts thought?
1. It's still a good value if you don't own a ps4
2. It's a good value if you own a ps4, but really want to get a locked 30fps in titles that drop frames, and if you have a very large (65+) screen that can easily show the benefits in resolution from normal living room distance.
3. There are a fuck ton of people who didn't buy this specifically because it doesn't have a 4k blu-ray drive. Sure maybe not hundreds of thousands, but that number exists, as is evident by the hundreds of people in this very thread who said they didn't buy it because of this.
Can anyone argue with any of these points?
I feel like this is just where we're at. The value of a pro is very situational imo.
For the life of me, I do not understand how this thread is 100+ pages long, at this point...
We all wish the Pro supported 4K Blu-ray...but it doesn't. What is left to say?
Your post sums up the state of things, and continuing the conversation past that is just posting in circles.
Crayon
Member
Number 3. It's not a fuck ton. It's negligible and that's why they left it out.
But this can also be an issue.
My cousin bought a 65" LG OLED
he has Directv for a while now, and we just scheduled an appointment to setup new genie to get 4K Channels.
but besides that he recently signed up for Comcast Internet because that was the ONLY provider that offered internet that would be enough for 4K...
ever since he has had issues with his Internet going out...and it turns out that since he lives in an apartment, that there are issues with combining Satellite and Cable Internet through the only Coax that goes into his apartment.
He lives just a few blocks away from Downtown San Francisco. Not like in the middle of nowhere.
It seems like if he wants to get access to 4K streaming media...he's going to have to cut off Directv and go with Comcast TV... but Comcast doesn't have some channels that he watches. (Fox Sports 2) But more importantly the Directv dedicated 4K Channels...only provider in the US.
There is nothing else for him until more providers bring high speed Internet to his area. ATT maxes out at 6mb..lol. Sonic.net supposedly does 20mbs but his current 10mb package with them (still has it) only gets 7mbs... so not sure if he'd get enough for consistent 4K.
His situation might be unique, but there might be others who have their own issues with access to 4K Streaming. and 4K streamming is not even as good as physical. Such a pain in the ass.
It depends on your definition of a fuckton vs. Numbers that are impossible to obtain though.
Negligible? Maybe. Numbers show that pro sold like a 6th of the 1.5 millionish that ps4 sold in december.
Would a blu ray drive have changed that? I don't know and neither do you.
Regardless, 4k blu ray is a disappointing omission for many, whether you agree or not.
A "fuck ton" of people? Did you count the individual users here that passed on a Pro to come.up with that HUNDREDS number? And how did you verify that they are not concern trolling?
MrCaliaztec
Member
Right? I'd love to see how people that said they wouldn't buy have actually still got one as well. I wouldn't doubt that there isn't more then a few of these hypothetical 100's.
This. There may be dozens, maybe hundreds of people who decided to not buy Pro because of the lack of UHD BD drive. I seriously doubt we are talking about a five figure number.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I said I wouldn't buy it when this was confirmed, but I got over it. Couldn't resist and wanted better games. Got a TV and nice 4K blu ray player to go with it... it is what it is, and I'm pretty damn happy with all this. I'm sure another iteration will have one, but oh well.
not possible,
Crayon
Member
Sony can add uhd in a minor revision if and when it becomes a significant selling point. As of now they decided to pocket the money.
Ms has it because they had to have SOMETHING. And it was something. The great hardware design, the uhd, pricing and bc were all things they could implement in the short term. Whereas big new games take 2 or 3 years from the word go.
Sony has games and pricing and that carries like 90% so they could serve up a cheesy looking slim and be stingy with the uhd drive and still win. As we have seen.
Ms has it because they had to have SOMETHING. And it was something. The great hardware design, the uhd, pricing and bc were all things they could implement in the short term. Whereas big new games take 2 or 3 years from the word go.
Sony has games and pricing and that carries like 90% so they could serve up a cheesy looking slim and be stingy with the uhd drive and still win. As we have seen.
Theonik
Member
Why. They still want to SELL the PS4 Pro. Pricing still matters and a Pro at $399 will sell better than a Pro at 400+ also, one of the points of the Pro and what allows them to keep costs for BOTH down is the fact they share parts between the two SKUs to increase economies of scale. The entire BD assembly is shared between the two units and so either they'd have to make a UHD assembly just for the Pro that would probably now sell even less because of its increased cost, while making less money from being more expensive to produce. (Sony's decision here is whether they get much of a ROI on that essentially) OR, they would have to add the UHD drive to the slim which would drive down the cost of the drive substantially but also decrease their margins on both albeit less so than the scenario of doing it just for the Pro.
Stealthcobra
Member
Its interesting no one batted an eye when the wii u cant even play dvds... Seems hypocritical to complain so much about this when sales of blu rays are down. I haven't bought a bluray in years... Cause of Netflix... Yet this thread wants people to believe that there is so much demand for 4k bluray? When 4k tvs aren't even a mainstream item yet? This thread is the definition of beating a dead horse. Xbox 1 isn't seeing unprecedented support because it has a 4k bluray drive.. Lol
Theonik
Member
Lots of people on GAF complained about it and the audiences are different too. Using the WiiU as an example is odd too given it's done like, Dreamcast numbers.
Because not everyone is merely happy whether or not the company does well in sales? Some people did/were looking to upgrade who wanted to watch 4K Blu-rays themselves.
iPhone 7 still doesn't do VR, but it sells amirite?
I'm sorry to hear that Netflix has replaced Blurays for you. Also, it's not as if Netflix gets every recent movie either.
This while, "it doesn't matter because it still sells" is such an anti-consumer attitude for a consumer to have.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Just a peek at the AVForums will tell you people were/are still disappointed.
Sony missed an opportunity to grab non gamers or non console gamers who would have bought PS4 Pro with UHD player.
I was not a console gamer when l bought PS3 as the PC was suffice but l now game on PS and PC thanks to PS3 having a BluRay player. That's thanks to quality Sony first party titles. It's media capabilities enticed me to Playstation and that's not there with PS4 Pro if you already have PS4.
Nostremitus
Member
According to The Guardian Xbox One sales increased 1000% in the UK when they added 4K Blu-ray.
That's not a typo. Three 0s.
The Xbox One S is selling just fine with a UHD Bluray player. Selling a bit better than The Xbox One without the player did.
that's because the S itself is the fucking bomb
Nostremitus
Member
It's still weaker and slower than the bog standard PS4. It's really not.
The only thing it really has on the PS4 is UHD Bluray.
ReBurn
Gold Member
This is every bit as specious as "fuck ton." You have no way to know how much of a factor it was.
Yeah, I'm not taking this bait...
Theonik
Member
That's because of cost. And I am not sure if I'd call being outsold 2:1 is a great accomplishment, it was selling abysmally before and is already back to declining, down YOY for 2016 in general. It's even worse when you consider than that entry level $250-299 model is probably just about breaking even or losing money for them. Sony is very happy about the Slim.
Wanna know something funny.
I bought a 4K TV for my living room before the summer because why not. And I bought a PS4 Pro to replace my old one. But I didn't connect the Pro to my almost brand new 4K TV. Instead, I placed it in my gaming room where I still have a six year old fullHD.
So curiously enough, there are different kinds of consumers, and most of the choices we make are not rational.
UHD bluray doesn't matter.
Have a look at this picture my dude:
NSFW:
You could buy it just to decorate your living room with it and people would be jealous af.
The Artisan
Member
mS just announced scorpio will have 4K bluray (although I think this was a common expectation)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1351238
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1351238
Did you just bump this thread from the other one? Wow. You even put the edit saying you did! Too funny.
It is as relevant as 4k gaming. Once you experience it going back to anything 1080p seems like settling.
The Artisan
Member
yeah that's why there's 5+ paged thread of mS's announcement of scorpio having it and a 100+ page thread of sony's announcement of pro's lack thereof...
i immediately thought of this thread when i saw scorpio's