Yep. I imagine it's a similar situation as with BF4 on last gen consoles. Some stuff in those versions looks crappy as hell, much worse than in previous BF games (the water effects, for example). The engine, while being scalable, just wasn't built to excel on that hardware and the down-scaled stuff looks like shit.
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Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade
- Thread starter Moral Panic
- Start date
I must say, as a longtime fan of FROM Software's games (going back to King's Field on the PSX), I find it amusing to read this thread simply because I don't believe they've EVER experienced this kind of scrutiny before. Until this series came along they were always a very offbeat, niche kind of studio (still are, I suppose).
Many of their games have long since suffered from performance issues.
Heck, just this generation we had Armored Core 4 targeting 60 fps (and failing) only to receive a sequel with a significantly LOWER framerate across the board.
Evergrace? Not a popular title but the original was 60 fps. The sequel? Barely 30 fps with lots of tearing despite not looking much better.
King's Field IV? Game ran at 60 fps, but the character movement was sampled at 30 so you'd have this weird juxtaposition of 60 fps camera rotation and 30 fps character movement that never looked right.
Their PSX games were not even remotely impressive.
So, with Dark Souls, they finally reached a mass audience and experienced a huge success. For the first time they have a huge number of people watching closely.
Still sucks, though.
Many of their games have long since suffered from performance issues.
Heck, just this generation we had Armored Core 4 targeting 60 fps (and failing) only to receive a sequel with a significantly LOWER framerate across the board.
Evergrace? Not a popular title but the original was 60 fps. The sequel? Barely 30 fps with lots of tearing despite not looking much better.
King's Field IV? Game ran at 60 fps, but the character movement was sampled at 30 so you'd have this weird juxtaposition of 60 fps camera rotation and 30 fps character movement that never looked right.
Their PSX games were not even remotely impressive.
So, with Dark Souls, they finally reached a mass audience and experienced a huge success. For the first time they have a huge number of people watching closely.
Still sucks, though.
I doubt it considering the 6 week delay for PC.
You forget Carmack also had issues with the cell processor. Said it was 'fundamentally impractical'. So he's lazy too. 50 of him wouldn't help.
They kept touting PC as lead platform, but hard to know if they meant it literally or just trying to make us less afraid of a PC port this time.
EatinOlives
Member
We're not getting an official statement until the games release and the answers are already obvious to us.
We might get one this week or next. Once day-1 players have had the game for a while, if the PC version looks exactly like the pre-release demos (highly unlikely), they'll shout it from the rooftops to get as many double-dippers as possible. If they still stay mum it'll be a giant indicator that's not the case.
Zomba13
Member
jeez
Oh wow.
Hope the PC version still has that stuff in it though I'm not hopeful.
I hate how devs always misrepresent their games. With FROM at least their screen shots looks accurate (as in, not very good). but the finished games looks like a huge downgrade from the videos and trailers and demos they showed off.
Uncompressed textures and larger texture resolution can easily take up 10 GB.
Similar situation happened in the transition of RE4HD to PC port.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
That's ignorance!
How is baked lighting/shadows and 1 dynamic shadow casting light so hard to achieve? This is Xbox/PS2 level stuff people.
In fact, they've already shown the game looking quite good running on PS3 with at stable 30fps.
So, how come they had to downgrade everything and yet not achieve a stable framerate for the final game?
Either it was always a lie or somebody fucked up massively.
Higher res textures are confirmed, so there's that.
cascardian
Member
Well, Bamco also said they'd throw basically all their financial weight behind the title, to go big or go home, essentially, so people were setting their expectations accordingly. This only intensified when the first footage was shown.
zephervack
Member
This is one of the weirdest bait and switches in gaming I think, not only the graphics but look at the enemies in the hall, in the demo they wake up and fight you, in retail they are just static, the fuck??
FROM trying to make the game seem harder to Journos so that they dont write columns saying the game had gone casul?
Also the torches, wouldnt that be prebaked, aka 0 resource needed, why remove them completely, so weird. The contrast between the orange of the fire and the blue/grey hue of the rest was really pleasing, now its just flat and boring.
FROM trying to make the game seem harder to Journos so that they dont write columns saying the game had gone casul?
Also the torches, wouldnt that be prebaked, aka 0 resource needed, why remove them completely, so weird. The contrast between the orange of the fire and the blue/grey hue of the rest was really pleasing, now its just flat and boring.
zephervack
Member
Any chance the demo could be what the PC looks like? ....Maybe?
I really really hope so, but the differences are so big Im not holding out hope.
If it was just the level of AO, or shadowing maybe, but they actually took out geometry and other assets, for example, in the staircase, it used to be filled with spider cobwebs, now there is nothing. Also the Mirror boss jumps and when he lands he splashes water everywhere in the Demo, completely gone in retail.
Hopefully one day in 20 years someone will write a book about what happened there, so weird.
This has been repeated hundreds of times in this thread and I suspect the answer is no.Any chance the demo could be what the PC looks like? ....Maybe?
I'm still not convinced these downgrades were entirely technical in nature.
While geometry WAS changed in that spot, looking at various Youtube videos, I've seen plenty of instances of doorway arches and other details just as complex as the original demos.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
To be honest, I don't expect FROM titles to be graphical showcases. The problem here is we saw a game seeing a significant downgrade on a few months. That's not the norm in the industry, being FROM or whatever other studio, something like this will have it's backlash.
I don't think the final game looks that bad. The problem is, it was suposed to look better, they actually showed the game looking much better on current hardware.
Maybe they're enemies that only spawn once? Maybe someone with an early copy can confirm this.
MoonLightWave
Member
jeez
WTF, that difference.
SlasherJPC
Banned
They just showed more then they should have and now they haven't been able to produce what they had given the public. I mean previous From Software stuff was very low key like you said. Now ever since this huge hit, I'm sure they have felt the pressure to showcase the game, and get people excited. I just think they did so without thinking of the repurcussions because quite frankly they have never been in this position before. Game is still going to be great if you ask me, but just a shame to see the downgrade suddenly and without warning for the most part.
It's really weird how the promo images on Steam don't seem to show this.
From are really bad at promo screens. Something is taking up an extra 10GB.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
It was a demo on PS3 at numeorus expos and I have played it.
Mirror Knight has been significantly downgraded. Looks more dull and you can barely see the rain :/
swazzyswess
Member
Just stop.
Messofanego
Banned
jeez
There are still cloth physics (bit more binary), SOLD! XD
Any chance the demo could be what the PC looks like? ....Maybe?
We are all hoping.
The sheer darkness from that scene aside, wondering whether we will see Specular Highlights, Normal Mapping, etc return for the PC version.
Garcia
Member
I understand your point. I've been playing all 4 Kings Field games recently and it's clear that FS aren't even remotely close to be called programming wizards.
What happened here is that they created this problem from the beginning by strongly advertising a demo that was not ever going to look the way it did in the final build.
From what I recall, something along those lines DID actually happen with Demon's Souls. The original TGS showing featured much more complex dynamic shadows but was operating at a very low framerate (with impressions from the show indicating it was a joke). In fact, a lot of people thought that Microsoft was getting a better deal having Ninja Blade as an exclusive game while Sony was stuck with Demon's Souls.
In the end, however, the performance was just fine but the game itself was less visually impressive. It's just that most people didn't notice or care.
It's so much stranger due to the fact that they've shown it running on real consoles rather than devkits or PCs (as is usually the case with these downgrade stories). The PS3 was clearly capable of running those areas without any hitches. If it were really a technical problem you'd think they could adjust each area to maximize performance.
That's what I'm still thinking this was more of a design decision than a technical limitation. I suspect the torch gameplay had something to do with it as it DID seem to rely a bit too heavily on that mechanic.
Three options:It's really weird how the promo images on Steam don't seem to show this.
From are really bad at promo screens.
1)They're downloadable and can be activated in a menu like the Sleeping Dogs high res pack but aren't used in those shots
2)they just meant that the game can be rendered at a higher resolution than consoles
3)Those shots really do show the extent of the high-res textures.
KennyLinder
Member
Was it defintetly running on a PS3? Just seems so bizarre to have change as dramatically as this footage shows!
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That kind of make sense and understable. But the actual demo seems to run at higher framerate than the retail version in this case while looking much better. Is not the same situation.
Ah, :/
Good, good.
At least we won't need a resolution fix this time. Just SweetFX and read to go.
SlasherJPC
Banned
Def interesting to note. Like you said though, they are in the spotlight now. Where things like these matter to the masses. I still hope people just play and enjoy the game. I'll be keeping my eyes out for the PC version and how it looks while playing the PS3 version.
Oh yes. A standard retail PS3. Not even a devkit.
I watched one of the stations crash even and they simply reset the PS3 and the disc showed up on the XMB menu and everything. You could also use the PS button.
Do those areas run worse though? If areas outside of the demo ran worse, that's one thing, but if those same areas that were previously showcased ran slower I'd be really surprised.
The Wizard
Member
If the PC version really looks like the early footage it will be one of the most visually striking differences between PC and console we've seen. Usually you get higher res, framerate and other nicieties but this looks completely different in atmosphere.
It's interesting that, if I remember correctly, the sizes of both console and pc versions for Dark Souls (1) were pretty similar. When I google the PC Size for Dark Souls I get around 4 GB and on the Xbox Marketplace, Dark Souls has 3.81 GB with an additional 350MB for DLC.
What does that mean for Dark Souls 2? We can only speculate...
CountAntonius
Member
Christ. that's going to take me all day to download.As if the 6 week wait isn't bad enough.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Yes. I saw it with my own eyes.
KennyLinder
Member
Then... What the fuck happened.
The torches are casting flickering light on the environment and the character as he passes. I don't think that's considered "baked" lighting.
It needs to fucking happen. The PS3 and 360 are nearly 10 years old. The differences are not surprising when you think of 2005 hardware vs 2013/2014 hardware.
Ok, this might mean high-res textures are included with the vanilla game download.
I'm pretty sure the consoles couldn't handle it so they scrapped it. Can't think of any other reason.
Polioliolio
Member
What I don't understand is how this was all playable in the demoed condition until recently, and seemingly, all versions were adjusted because either one of the consoles were somehow unable to run the entire game like that..
Could this have been fixed with a delay? Was it just rushed?
How else can one explain these changes, when they were previously playable on consoles??
Could this have been fixed with a delay? Was it just rushed?
How else can one explain these changes, when they were previously playable on consoles??
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
4) FROM didn't bother to take screenshots of the PC version and just submitted random ones to Valve.
EatinOlives
Member
I think what's getting people the most is the torch mechanic. From the outset From very loudly bragged about their new lighting system and built a torch mechanic around it. Now that they were forced to drop it it appears as though that mechanic is still there and working but mostly useless.
This is a rare instance in which a graphical downgrade is actively harming gameplay. And gameplay is what really matters in the Souls series. I'm really upset that the jumped they gun so early on a lighting system and then had to remove so crudely, the fact that they're saying jack shit about it now even though they were being very loud about it before, and the fact that they kept this a secret practically up until the game actually released. In many ways this upsets me more than the Watch_Dogs downgrade.
SlasherJPC
Banned
Yep. I feel the same. It's a shame. I just want answers more then anything. Not blood. I'm not even mad, just frustrated with it all and the lack of any sites realy talking about this when Watch Dogs was being posted all over the place.
Somebody find videos of this.
here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOufiJ13Ezc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCDfoifNrnE
EatinOlives
Member
Indeed. I was holding out for the PC version anyway, and I'll still buy it day one, I'll just be disappointed that the final product will be nowhere near what they were hyping us up for. I'll be extra disappointed when the torches start showing up
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
So PS3 version doesn't look like this?
Not even close.
darkpaladinmfc
Member
Haven't seen it myself, but someone said that it was all flat grey, and you could turn some lights on or something that made everything flat red like a red light district.So PS3 version doesn't look like this?
zephervack
Member
What im guessing is that at some point, they extracted a "slice" of the game to a different build.
Then a team at FROM worked on that Demo build while the rest kept working on the main game, at this point, both versions were missing the stuff missing from the retail version.
The team working on the Demo build, added tons of details, and activated the lightning/shadowing stuff from their new engine, made it stable and finalized worked on it to be showed to the press.
But that stuff never made it back to the Retail "branch" if you will, for some or other reason, maybe that team came back to optimize code, or finish other areas, etc.
Its the only reason that makes sense to me, because what artist would knowingly take out some of the stuff the GIFs in the previous pages show, stuff like the water splash of the boss when he jumps, how expensive can that be?
Also worthy to note that they made this in the past, The Painted World of Ariamis in Dark Souls 1 has tons of minute details that arent so prevalent in the rest of the game, because that was the first area they made, so it was kind of a tech demo/playing ground for testing gameplay and the engine.