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Mother! Discussion thread (spoilers)

S

Spine_Ripper

Member
Left the theater an hour ago. Don't got much to add other than "agreed" to the mother nature/Religion corrupted by man/God is kinda a dick theory, but man the gasps when the neck snaps at the end...that's how you know you're watching a good movie lol.

The allegorical stuff is laid on a little thick, but I don't see the movie working without it being on the nose. As others have posted, there are still people that did not catch the religious symbolism AT ALL. Gonna rewatch this one, great stuff overall.
 
M

More_Badass

Member
I think the yellow remedy was representing the earth/nature recovering from mankind's damage, or at least trying to against all odds. Especially if it is meant to be mercuric oxide, considering the old style of bottle.

With the poet's beautiful words finally written and a baby on the way, the house should be safe now, the poet no longer needs to indulge the whims of strangers to get past his writer's block. She no longer needs such a remedy.

But the poet's words do the opposite; instead of pacifying and providing solace, they only attract more people, makes the people more frenzied and twisted.
 
R

richardhawk

Member
Man. Still trying to process what I watched but what a ride that was. I spent 13 years of my life going to catholic church and this movie has some pretty heavy handed nods to religion. Not that it's a bad thing but I can see how if you don't have even a tiny understanding of religion this can be super off putting.
 
T

tr00per

Member
This movie is still occupying my mind frequently. It's been some time since I've thought about a movie this much a few watching it. It's like I've been beaten over the head with it. It gave me some freaky ass dreams too
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
There was a whole white vs yellow thing. When she paints the white and doesn't like it, then goes for the yellow/mustard paint brush and is happier. The medicine being of yellow/mustard colour. She hates when the guests paint her house white. I agree with it symbolising mother earth.
 
V

v0yce

Member
HStallion said:
I still don't think JLaw was playing Mother Earth but that the house was supposed to be Earth. She has a lot of lines that don't really seem to relate to a Mother Earth style character like talking about preparing the apocalypse and is often referred to by others in terms like,"The inspiration." I may be wrong on her representing one part of the Holy Trinity along with Bardem and the baby but I don't think the mother earth thing fits.
Click to expand...

I think more than likely she is supposed to be Mother Earth, but I agree with you that there is a lot here that makes me question that.

At one point I thought that perhaps she represented Jews, or God's chosen people, and all the others being the gentiles being granted access to God and his kingdom. That sort of works with the interactions she has with others and the weird looks they give here when she says it's her house and stuff, and also her being the mother of Jesus, but it doesn't really seem to make sense overall.

Similarly I thought maybe she represented the angels or specifically Lucifer. They had God all to themselves before man and that works with the fire below imagery and "apocalypse" line, but not much else.

I also tried to work her into the trinity, but Bardem is obviously the Father and the baby is Jesus, so she would have to be the spirit, but she doesn't seem to fit that at all.

So again, seems like Mother Earth is the most likely allegory, but I do find the God/Mother relationship a bit odd the way it's presented here.
 
S

snausagesUK

Member
The more I think about it the more I think I really did not like this film. Especially if it's a biblical allegory.

I'm sort of at the point that I can easily enough transpose the film to its biblical metaphors but I'm left feeling 'so what?'. It's cynical about organised religion, big woop.

Anyway glad I went to see it.
 
J

JamminSalmon

Neo Member
Saw it twice this weekend. It's a much different experience when you see it already having an idea of what it's about. The emotional impact is lessened, and you catch many more symbols and themes.

As Aronofsky said, this movie represents our Mother: the one who gave us all life, yet whom we neglect. Basically, J-Law is a Gaia-like figure. She builds and gives and loves, but is taken advantage of and utterly consumed.

The biblical allegory is just structural, not the entire point of the movie. It provides a reference for us to look at our progress as a species. The first half of the movie is the story of creation and the coming of sin to the world, ending with the biblical flood (the sink bursting). The creature J-Law flushed down the toilet is foreshadowing the flood, and I think symbolizes imperfect creation, or humanity. It's being flushed away, and a new version will be created to replace it.

The second half of the movie is basically all of human history taking place in the house. People band together, form tribes. They do primitive dances and worship. They share, eat together, and live together under God/Javier. Soon, they take. And take, and take, and take. Their sins become more and more egregious. God believes Mother's work (the house) is there to be shared, but Mother ain't happy about it. Soon, humanity sins more and more, escalating to murder. There is slavery, violence, zealotry and extremism. There is war and plague. I kept an eye out for famine and death, to represent all four horsemen of the apocalypse, but couldn't find them.

Then, the baby is born, representing Christ. He exists to redeem humanity and forgive them of their sins. But, humanity all wants a piece of Christ, and it is the last thing they take from Mother. Like the sacrament, the body of Christ is eaten. They want to be a part of it. They want to do whatever they can to feel closer to God. They even speak his words when eating Christ. Finally, they abuse the shit out of Mother, until she's had enough and destroys her home and its invaders in a fiery apocalypse. God is like "whoops, that didn't go well," and tries again all over. He's narcissistic and unable to learn and mature.

I welcome any further discussion of this movie. It's not perfect, but its most valuable asset is the way it allows people to talk about it.
 
S

Smellycat

Member
I have't seen the movie, but I just want to know something based on the trailer:

Is this movie about the birth of antichrist?
 
F

Foggy

Member
Smellycat said:
I have't seen the movie, but I just want to know something based on the trailer:

Is this movie about the birth of antichrist?
Click to expand...

No, it's a mix of an allegory for the creative process and a biblical allegory. Basically just therapy where Aronofsky can't stop talking about the Bible. I'm glad he got to make it though, hopefully it got a lot out of his system. Not too happy for me though.
 
W

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
The Exploder said:
I thought that the medicine was sunlight, but I also didn't get that those kids were Cain and Able so what do I know.
Click to expand...
I do like that idea, the the yellow powder was concentrated sunlight and would replenish her strength when she felt weakened.
 
A

Az987

all good things
I really liked it.

I couldn't stop laughing in the middle of the movie where the guests are painting the house and break the sink.
 
C

CloudWolf

Member
This might be the most insane film I've seen in the cinema and I've seen some insane films. The experience reminded me the most of when I saw Spring Breakers.

I loved every second.

Toa TAK said:
Do you write Netflix's blurbs for their films?
Click to expand...
Oh man, I can't wait to see what Netflix writes for this one if/when it comes to the platform.
 
S

snausagesUK

Member
NervousXtian said:
So basically the movie is an allegory on how ridiculous religion really is. Right?
Click to expand...

This is where I drop off. Once it was pointed out to me that it was a biblical allegory the dots pretty much all got connected very quickly. It just seems like very broad commentary. God just being God.

It might have been more interesting if it didn't have the escalation towards crisis towards the end. Like if they kept it more grounded and less magical.

My initial interpretation was that it was supposed to problematise the relationship between artist and muse and I was kind of interested in picking it apart with that in mind. But no it's just religion's bad I guess.
 
H

hampig

Member
snausagesUK said:
This is where I drop off. Once it was pointed out to me that it was a biblical allegory the dots pretty much all got connected very quickly. It just seems like very broad commentary. God just being God.

It might have been more interesting if it didn't have the escalation towards crisis towards the end. Like if they kept it more grounded and less magical.

My initial interpretation was that it was supposed to problematise the relationship between artist and muse and I was kind of interested in picking it apart with that in mind. But no it's just religion's bad I guess.
Click to expand...

I'd 100% take it as a commentary on the people and not religion exactly. The actions of god and earth were positive, the acts of the people were not.
 
L

Liamc723

Member
hampig said:
I'd 100% take it as a commentary on the people and not religion exactly. The actions of god and earth were positive, the acts of the people were not.
Click to expand...

There's definitely some commentary on God too.

Remember when the baby is killed, but Bardem's character says they have to find a way to forgive the people? It's making a mockery of religion and the fact that even if you commit the worst sins, God will still forgive you.
 
C

crooked spin

Member
snausagesUK said:
My initial interpretation was that it was supposed to problematise the relationship between artist and muse and I was kind of interested in picking it apart with that in mind. But no it's just religion's bad I guess.
Click to expand...

I don't see why it can't also be the former. It's totally a commentary about creator and creation, in the abstract.
 
C

CloudWolf

Member
snausagesUK said:
This is where I drop off. Once it was pointed out to me that it was a biblical allegory the dots pretty much all got connected very quickly. It just seems like very broad commentary. God just being God.

It might have been more interesting if it didn't have the escalation towards crisis towards the end. Like if they kept it more grounded and less magical.

My initial interpretation was that it was supposed to problematise the relationship between artist and muse and I was kind of interested in picking it apart with that in mind. But no it's just religion's bad I guess.
Click to expand...
A film can have several meanings at the same time, you know. It's perfectly valid to see the film as the relationship of artist, muse/lover and what success does to that relation. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's one of the ways Aronofsky intended the film to be read.
 
W

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
NervousXtian said:
So basically the movie is an allegory on how ridiculous religion really is. Right?
Click to expand...
I'm sure it will be construed that way, but there are many valid readings of the film. The film is also what people take away from what they consume and use it for their own devices. Just as someone who has a bone to pick with religion could read it as a stab at the construction and structure of religion to fit their worldview and push the film onto others that way.
 
S

snausagesUK

Member
crooked spin said:
I don't see why it can't also be the former. It's totally a commentary about creator and creation, in the abstract.
Click to expand...

It very specifically invokes the parables of the Bible in a way that overshadows that other competing metaphor though. The Cain and Abel stuff. Eating the body of Christ. Adam's missing rib.

I guess because I'm brought up Irish catholic I just kind of don't really care for biblical metaphors. Kind of an overexposed literary (if you want to be controversial) source in my view. It's not playful with its allusions, just very heavy hitting

For what it's worth I'm still glad I went to see it and that it's a film which is still challenging how I think about it. I kind of swore off going to the cinema because as far as the eye could see all there seemed to be was superhero stuff which I hate. So I'm happy stuff like this gets made and has big actors attached
 
M

More_Badass

Member
wenis said:
I'm sure it will be construed that way, but there are many valid readings of the film. The film is also what people take away from what they consume and use it for their own devices. Just as someone who has a bone to pick with religion could read it as a stab at the construction and structure of religion to fit their worldview and push the film onto others that way.
Click to expand...
Another reading
MistressMoitie said:
Just got back from seeing it. I like your thoughts, but

I felt an uncanny familiarity to her claustrophobia and lack of control. As a female who was in a relationship with an abusive narcissist, the feeling of other people in your life without knowing who they are, these people taking precedence.. the whole time that all familiar fight or flight mechanism was going off in my head. I felt like the ending was a representation of a typical user-type personality who takes everything from someone in love without giving it back. And then sucking the life out of them while moving onto the next victim. I may be projecting, but that's how the movie made me feel.
Click to expand...
 
M

More_Badass

Member
wenis said:
🤔 Yea that's really really good. I may have to see this one more time in theaters before its run ends.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm going to see it again today. I think I'll enjoy it more without the veil of "wtf is happening" over the allegory.

I also think that since the Bible is so full of parables and allegory as is, that abstracting such stories even more allows for these kinds of broad interpretations. Death of the author? The struggle between artist, muse, and success? The representation of being in an abusive relationship? A damning condemnation of religion and God?

I mean the last one is basically the same as the first, that a creator may have an intent and message with his work but he can't stop others from tearing it to shreads and spiraling out of his control.
 
K

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
The Bible stuff is fun and silly but I think the movie is most affecting as a look at an artist's mind and the pain they inflict on those who love them. Some of the dialogue toward the end seemed really raw and leads me to think Aronofsky is drawing this from actual experience. The movie feels like an act of apology.
 
M

More_Badass

Member
Krev said:
The Bible stuff is fun and silly but I think the movie is most affecting as a look at an artist's mind and the pain they inflict on those who love them. Some of the dialogue toward the end seemed really raw and leads me to think Aronofsky is drawing this from actual experience. The movie feels like an act of apology.
Click to expand...
God and religion, or an artist's mindset and apology for the pain inflicted on their loved ones, is basically two sides of the same coin subtext-wise, at least when viewed through this movie's lens
 
ricardo_sousa11

ricardo_sousa11

Member
Krev said:
The Bible stuff is fun and silly but I think the movie is most affecting as a look at an artist's mind and the pain they inflict on those who love them. Some of the dialogue toward the end seemed really raw and leads me to think Aronofsky is drawing this from actual experience. The movie feels like an act of apology.
Click to expand...

This is the same interpretation I had, I didnt even relate it to the religious stuff, maybe because im not religios at all and dont know much about the bible.

And I think its such a strong movie, specially if you get to see it as the struggle of an artists mind, and the toll it takes on their mental health.
 
K

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
snausagesUK said:
This is where I drop off. Once it was pointed out to me that it was a biblical allegory the dots pretty much all got connected very quickly. It just seems like very broad commentary. God just being God.

It might have been more interesting if it didn't have the escalation towards crisis towards the end. Like if they kept it more grounded and less magical.

My initial interpretation was that it was supposed to problematise the relationship between artist and muse and I was kind of interested in picking it apart with that in mind. But no it's just religion's bad I guess.
Click to expand...
Your initial reading was right. The metaphor and the allegory meet nicely in the middle: a portrait of the artist as an old testament God: selfish, demanding and ultimately hurtful toward those who love them most.
All the people in the house can be read as ideas rushing through the artist's head. In his time of anguish they are hostile, and they end up driving out his old source of inspiration (a previous stage of his life and a past relationship). It draws a parallel between the all consuming devotion to one's own ideas of a committed artist and the aloof selfishness of the old testament God. The chaos of his life and the endless support and love of his partner eventually give him new inspiration. After he receives positive feedback the allegorical Biblical figures return, but now it's a party, ego mania, all the time. Artistic passion takes hold, he devotes his time to his new rush of thought and inspiration and it once again brings about chaos, and he neglects the woman whose support brought him to this moment of flourishing. In the end he takes everything from her until she can't take it anymore and he moves on, but she's powerless to make herself anything more than the new source of creativity as he moves on to a new stage, in a new relationship.
It's a particularly self-eviscerating work from Aronofsky and I think a very earnest and sincere response to a break-up.
There's also the environmental reading. I admire how the metaphor works on several levels, but I do wish it had been more submerged within the narrative.

EDIT:

More_Badass said:
God and religion, or an artist's mindset and apology for the pain inflicted on their loved ones, is basically two sides of the same coin subtext-wise, at least when viewed through this movie's lens
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
H

hampig

Member
Liamc723 said:
There's definitely some commentary on God too.

Remember when the baby is killed, but Bardem's character says they have to find a way to forgive the people? It's making a mockery of religion and the fact that even if you commit the worst sins, God will still forgive you.
Click to expand...

Yeah, thinking about it now, I think it does say a bit more about religion then I'd originally thought. I left the movie thinking that God doesn't really intervene, he just creates and believes, but he actually does intervene several times toward the beginning. For whatever reason he just decides to do nothing later on.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
hampig said:
Yeah, thinking about it now, I think it does say a bit more about religion then I'd originally thought. I left the movie thinking that God doesn't really intervene, he just creates and believes, but he actually does intervene several times toward the beginning. For whatever reason he just decides to do nothing later on.
Click to expand...

God doesn't seem interested in dealing with the human's on a direct and intimate level but just revels in their affection and belief in him. It doesn't matter if its human sacrifices or just saying they love him, he just wants more and more and more no matter what.
 
S

show me your skeleton

Member
aronofsky seems utterly tormented (or fascinated) by the creator and the act of creation. think I'll watch pi as I've yet to see it and then write something about this very prevalent thread in his work.
 
K

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
I love that a major studio just put out a surreal horror movie that works as a metaphor on at least three different levels.
 
A

Adam Sadler

Member
Yea I definitely can't wait to watch this again. I don't know if I'll catch ir in theater but I'm definitely getting it on blu ray to watch
 
M

More_Badass

Member
All alone in the theater

Things I noticed

- Lawrence's heart problems begin pretty much once Harris arrives, and almost immediately the condescension and vice start. Smoking in the house, offering her drink, "not just a pretty face", leaving their garbage behind, leaving the water on, etc

- Bardem is constantly saying how she doesn't really appreciate his work like they do

- Bardem admires the people and cares for them like family

- The brother is killed with the door knob and the bloody stain in the floor comes the murder wound. The Blood also reveals the hidden cellar area

- Bardem can't abandon them, there's nowhere else for them to go.

- No one has respect for her. "Pretty face", "nice view". kissing her, hugging her, sexual advances, not listening to about the house. Condescending scoffs whenever she insists that it's her house

- "Don't want to interrupt, I'll just get started on the apocalypse"

- "I feel as though these words were written for me" "of course they were"
 
D

Dragon Puncher

Member
Went in completely cold and absolutely loved it. Best movie I've seen in the theater in years. Aronosky went for it in every way imaginable and the result is both batshit crazy and filled with meaning. Both the acting and the sound work+camera work as also amazing.

I can see why it's as diversiv as it is though, both because it was apparently marketed as a horror movie and because it's not afraid to go it's own logic. It reminds me of Antichrist in a lot of ways and seems partially inspired by von Triers bleak world view. Not a film that'll make you feel good in any way, but sometimes feeling terrible can be more meaningful experience in the end.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Just as a reference, the word poet in English comes from the Greek ποιητής (poietes), the literal meaning of which is "creator".
 
K

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
One area where this is a big advancement over Black Swan is that here I felt like Aronofsky was aware how ridiculous a film he was making and he occasionally lets black humour slip through the cracks in the darkness. I felt like I was laughing with this movie, not at it (as I felt with Black Swan).
 
M

More_Badass

Member
There's a pretty clear line of corrupted symbols and meaning throughout

The poet's eulogy becomes scripture. The mistaken smudge of ink during a hug becomes religious blessing. The words about sharing invites theft and "everyone's house".
 
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