Stallion Dan
Member
Hope they do new events in addition and don't just recycle old with fresh costumes etc.
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Overwatch |OT10| That'll do pig, that'll do
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Hope they do new events in addition and don't just recycle old with fresh costumes etc.
Terareflection
Member
Where did "preparing to download" even come from PSN? How slow this is asinine.
I said this a thousand times before, but Roadhog was not only balanced, he was fun as hell to play as and against.
His playstyle is an inherent high-risk, high-reward set up that allows for a lot of satisfying plays made from him. The most common argument against him was dying to hooks you couldn't see coming. Well, to that, all I can say is that you got to be self aware. Once you realize that there is a hog on the team, one of the highest priorities you have is figuring out his position and then playing around him. Which a LOT of characters can do. Dash around him as tracer. Deflect him as Genji. Mei wall him, Rein shield him, Symmetra barrier him, etc. I've won so many duels with all sorts of characters against him just though basic knowledge that his entire offense relies on the hook. Once you do that, you at minimum have a strong shot of taking him out yourself because there's not much he can do without his hook.
There are some characters that have no direct ability to counter him. This is okay. The premise of the game is that some characters have distinct advantages over another. This is where you have to rely on your teammates to some extent. But that's an element of almost every character. if you're a healer, you're screwed if your DPS can't get work done. If you're a DPS, you're screwed if your tanks can't create space for you to shoot enemies in. And so on.
It's hard for me to even imagine a Roadhog that doesn't hookshot people can work effectively. This would require a greater rework than Symmetra and effectively turn him into a different character entirely.
And I miss him in the game. Hog was one of the last few that kept the Dive meta in check because if you tried to get in his space, he would fuck you up. And that made the game more dynamic. You constantly had to be on the lookout for this porky predator if you wanted to get behind enemy lines. Now it's as simple as walking around the group.
His playstyle is an inherent high-risk, high-reward set up that allows for a lot of satisfying plays made from him. The most common argument against him was dying to hooks you couldn't see coming. Well, to that, all I can say is that you got to be self aware. Once you realize that there is a hog on the team, one of the highest priorities you have is figuring out his position and then playing around him. Which a LOT of characters can do. Dash around him as tracer. Deflect him as Genji. Mei wall him, Rein shield him, Symmetra barrier him, etc. I've won so many duels with all sorts of characters against him just though basic knowledge that his entire offense relies on the hook. Once you do that, you at minimum have a strong shot of taking him out yourself because there's not much he can do without his hook.
There are some characters that have no direct ability to counter him. This is okay. The premise of the game is that some characters have distinct advantages over another. This is where you have to rely on your teammates to some extent. But that's an element of almost every character. if you're a healer, you're screwed if your DPS can't get work done. If you're a DPS, you're screwed if your tanks can't create space for you to shoot enemies in. And so on.
It's hard for me to even imagine a Roadhog that doesn't hookshot people can work effectively. This would require a greater rework than Symmetra and effectively turn him into a different character entirely.
And I miss him in the game. Hog was one of the last few that kept the Dive meta in check because if you tried to get in his space, he would fuck you up. And that made the game more dynamic. You constantly had to be on the lookout for this porky predator if you wanted to get behind enemy lines. Now it's as simple as walking around the group.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Oh, new DVa VO is in competitive now. That satisfies the patch hype.
Time to DM some ultiments.
Time to DM some ultiments.
Just thought I'd have a quick go before bed; 2000 players.... got on instantly not too long ago.
Had a few people complain about Doomfist (yet to try) being overpowered, managed to kill him a few times with Symmetra so far.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I still think the real reason for the Roadhog change is it made Doomfist impossible to balance. If they released Doomfist as is without Roadhog nerfs, Roadhog would have deleted him out of the game before he ever had a chance. And a more tanky doomfist doesn't make sense with his abilities. Making him basically a combo of Roadhog and Winston would be a bad idea. He needs a weakness, and he'd be useless without damage, so low HP has to be his weakness.
finalflame
Gold Member
Stopped reading here. Anyone who thinks this has a loose grasp on reality. To say he got overnerfed is correct, but to say he was fine before is delusional.
Might as well delete him then, no one will ever pick him without the hook combo
Terareflection
Member
Limited duel is back!
sorathecrow
Neo Member
It's been a couple months since I last played. Yikes, Roadhog's fire rate is like almost comedic. I didn't realize they gave him a shot-machine gun. Slow but powerful fits him way better than whatever this fast-shooting travesty is.
Nocturnowl
Member
I think what gets me most about the Hog nerf is that my friends who I play with often used him as their main tank, so basically four of them ended up basically dropping a character they really enjoyed and that kinda smells.
I also appreciated his self healing when I was on healer duty since It always felt it gave more leeway to use Zen.
Make no mistake, I have made many salty remarks on the hook across these threads (though that was mainly during that stretch where his "fixed hook" was killing everything and the cooldown had yet to be increased) but I think he was in a mostly solid place before they revamped him again and now the idea is to just throw shit at him and see what sticks? ehhhh, that sounds like a sloppy approach.
I also appreciated his self healing when I was on healer duty since It always felt it gave more leeway to use Zen.
Make no mistake, I have made many salty remarks on the hook across these threads (though that was mainly during that stretch where his "fixed hook" was killing everything and the cooldown had yet to be increased) but I think he was in a mostly solid place before they revamped him again and now the idea is to just throw shit at him and see what sticks? ehhhh, that sounds like a sloppy approach.
Doomfist Elimination is pretty good, but I'd rather they replaced Mystery Heroes with No Limits.
Bah.
There are characters who people just hate. I get that. Other than soldier, the character I hated at a given period of time rotated. Sometimes it was Mei, sometimes Tracer, at one point it was even Roadhog. There are a lot of abilities that are just annoying until you learn to get around them.
But that's just me and other people being pissy about abiltiies. The hook wasn't unbalanced. It had counters. Lots of them. Pro-play didn't show him being more useful than a bunch of other characters.
Some people just don't like being hooked. That's fine. But it's got nothing to do with balance.
sorathecrow
Neo Member
I feel like that constitutes the majority of Bliz's balance changes. It's more of an unpopularity contest rather than any specific data.
TWrecks310
Banned
Stopped reading here. Anyone who thinks this has a loose grasp on reality. To say he got overnerfed is correct, but to say he was fine before is delusional.
I'll repeat what I said before, if he was unbalanced his pick rates and win rates at high level and pro level play would have been abnormally high, but they weren't.
If you think the hook combo made the character broken, I hate to tell you but the stats didn't reflect that. What I think is very open to discussion is was a hero like old Roadhog good game design, because while I completely understand why the hook combo was frustrating, it arguably kept a lot of elements of the game on check and was possibly a necessary evil in Overwatch. Even as someone who was previously a Hog main I struggle with the question myself.
Wow? Must have been a mistake. Why would you remove that?
TWrecks310
Banned
I don't disagree with that, the most recent version of him before the nerf was the best version of him and the only one I will truly argue over.
Hog was super easy to punish if you knew his cooldowns. The only bullshit thing about him pre-nerf was the inconsistencies with his right click and the one shots off of that.
He's much better to deal with than smug purple lady who pops your head across the map when you round a corner.
finalflame
Gold Member
It's not about the stats or pick rate, but rather the perception and actual experience of going up against the old Roadhog.
The hook combo simply felt cheap and unfun to play against, and for Roadhog, it required very little skill to execute once you get the basic timing down. Are there further differentiators that separated good Hogs from mediocre ones? Yes. But getting hooked into Hog's embrace and combo'd just felt fucking terrible on the receiving end and was allowed to happen far too often. Such a low skill-ceiling insta-gib button should not exist in a game like OW.
It's not strictly that the hook was unbalanced or OP, it's that it was simply unfun to play against and required a lot of coordination to constantly be looking out for in a game where most people play with randoms and can't attain anything even remotely resembling that level of game sense/coordination from their team.
Getting hooked and insta-gibbed felt fucking cheap, and it cannot come back. Roadhog needs some other kind of value, and I think the proposed changes could be pretty good.
Trust me, I've bubbled my fair share of Hog hooks and used him as my personal source of ult fodder plenty in the past, I know he can be countered, and a good Zarya was a fairly decent counter back then. But I just don't want to play ALL my games CONSTANTLY saving my bubbles for hog hooks and having to constantly worry about where hog is and what his cooldown timer is at because he might insta-gib me or my healers if I don't. It got to the point where all you could think about during any given match was being careful with Hog, and that's just fucking miserable.
I honestly would not care if they deleted him.
moon2SMUG
Rickenslacker
Banned
I never really had a problem with Hog, but I usually played tanks (loved getting charge as Zarya from his hooked targets) or knew to keep away from his zone. It was lemming teammates that annoyed me more than anything. He's such a binary character, so I never really got the hate unless you're some DPS instalocker. The only thing I'd say was problematic about his kit was his right click, because he should be the hook and close range guy, I don't really see the purpose in allowing him to gib people outside of that range.
Nuno Pinto
Member
Doomfist thoughts.
Not be able to do a uppercut and immediately follow up with a seismic slam is DUMB and completely unintuitive. It completely fucks this character mobility.
Also, if you start charging your rocket punch and cancel it should NOT activate the cooldown.
Having only four shots that recharge automatically feels really bad but I'm gonna give it some time to see if I can get used to it. But I wouldn't mind a damage reduction with infinite shots like D.Va or at least a much faster reload.
Can't wait to play mei snowball offensive again.
Not be able to do a uppercut and immediately follow up with a seismic slam is DUMB and completely unintuitive. It completely fucks this character mobility.
Also, if you start charging your rocket punch and cancel it should NOT activate the cooldown.
Having only four shots that recharge automatically feels really bad but I'm gonna give it some time to see if I can get used to it. But I wouldn't mind a damage reduction with infinite shots like D.Va or at least a much faster reload.
Can't wait to play mei snowball offensive again.
TWrecks310
Banned
I mean, everything you are saying here is about whether he was properly designed, not if he was balanced.
Also the only way to assess whether a character is balanced or not in Overwatch is through pick rates and win rates. Any other way is massively flawed.
Nuno Pinto
Member
You don't meet the requirements needed to be a doomfist main.
Only possible explanation.
Also we stopped playing after the next game anyway. I felt bad for pinku, but we will play in a bit again hopefully.
racketpunch
Member
It only required very little skill versus people with the poorest positioning.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Yes it should, otherwise you could just keep recharging it until you feel like actually punching.
Nuno Pinto
Member
Rein doesn't even get the option to cancel a charge, you just have to believe what you are doing is right. Don't cancel punches.
finalflame
Gold Member
Are you a game designer with extensive experience in balancing competitive online games? If not, I hardly see how you're qualified to say that "pick rates and win rates" are the only way to balance a character.
The community's perception and feedback on a hero is also important. Any good game developer will listen to their community to identify heroes that need adjustment to keep the game fun and not extremely frustrating for their base. You should always give lots of weight to data to help inform decisions, but to say the ONLY data to look at is win/pick rate in a game where matches include 11 other heroes and a multitude of other variables is short-sighted at best.
I'm sure Blizzard collects extensive hero telemetry data that can be used to assess how the heroes are behaving during matches, whilst interacting with other heroes, etc. I'm also sure the game designers, developers, QA team, and Blizzard employees at large play the game daily and read community feedback daily. I doubt the decision to change him was made lightly, and you should trust Blizzard doesn't just change things because people are crying about it, but that community feedback IS a piece of the puzzle.
The vast majority of people that play this game are ranked below Diamond. I think your definition of "the poorest positioning" is probably not what the game designers have in mind for the majority of the playerbase.
You should have to think about your punch and when to use it. It's a pretty good move.
you honestly have to always believe your doing a good charge even when you see yourself charging off the map missing 3 targets easily
Nuno Pinto
Member
The Owzers way.
I don't know, it felt really intrusive when I was playing. It's not something that happened frequently though (like 2 or 3 times in hollywood attack), but it still sucks. The cooldown is super short anyway, I don't see the point of it.
TWrecks310
Banned
You're almost certainly right about the second part with how Blizzard collects data, but it's not like anyone knows what data they collect or what it proves. Blizzard 100% knows more about balancing than I do, but they have made a lot of mistakes with balancing and have occasionally come out and admit that i.e. the initial Bastion changes.
I think you aren't getting what I mean about Roadhog's previous balance. The statement I was trying to make was that Roadhog was not overpowered, or his pick rates and win rates would be really high. Neither was the case, so he was not overpowered. However, the hook combo is arguably bad game design as it was such a powerful ability that even with the multitude of weaknesses on the hero, made him a poorly designed hero. Community feedback and perception is important, but that does not mean they are right. Even if the community does not like something does not always mean it is overpowered, it just means it is not fun.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
This is definitely true. 92% of players in competitive are 3000 SR or lower at any given time, plus you should add whatever number of quick play only players on top of that.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753625906
finalflame
Gold Member
I agree he wasn't overpowered, but I think at most skill levels and in most situations, he was simply unfun to play against. I think that is part of what should be taken into consideration when "balancing" a hero, even if "balance" here carries a fairly loose interpretation. You're right, if he was outright unbalanced, his pick/win rates would be off the charts.
I think the fact they aren't thinking of reverting the changes outright speaks to them believing they made the right call. I don't think admitting to a mistake and reverting a hero is above Blizzard (I feel they've done it before but can't think back to an example), but I'm glad they're looking into other ways they can change his kit to make him viable again without simply bringing the hook combo back.
FatCatAttack
Member
I think the problem with the "unfun" argument that keeps popping up all the time is that it is inevitable in games that are 'hero' based that some mechanic is unfun to somebody. Because, the nature of what constitutes a hero, not just in games but in myth and modern fiction, is that they revolve around a core gimmick. Achilles is OP as fuck except for one goofy weak spot that hits him for critical damage. Samson is strong enough to bring down the house as long as you don't cut off his mullet. The Flash is so fast he reboots the whole comic. Superman is.. well super except if he gets near a certain green rock then he goes flaccid immediately. ETC. There are definitely things I find annoying in Overwatch but having played DOTA 2 for a couple thousand hours it's not a new sensation. There's only so many ideas out there for abilities.
The issue around Roadhog is a confluence of other issues in the game.
- Healing is extremely strong and overly simplified. If you don't kill someone immediately and their healers aren't potato they will be full health very quickly. It is a trade of ult charge (dps ult in exchange for enemy support ult) at best or a feed at worst if you do chip damage that doesn't lead anywhere. Meaning burst damage is the most relevant damage in the game.
- Roadhog has an inherently "high cost" to his design. He has a huge fat hitbox. His core ability is a projectile based skillshot. His ult trade is poor because his ultimate is not that great. Anything that has high cost has to confer high benefits in order to be balanced. Because of the aforementioned burst damage problem this leaves one shotting characters his only avenue of adding value.
- The game lacks solo play potential as it is. Theoretically the hook is a powerful repositioning tool that if your teammates are prepared they can help you kill the target. But who's gonna organize that in the hot mess that is an Overwatch pub? Part of the reason the "dive meta" is so obnoxious is that even in high level play on streams not everyone is on the same page to focus on a target. This is why some people are trying to copy the Korean method of just being as loud as possible and ululate the character's name like Xena Warrior princess and hoping you intimidate your team to curb under your warrior spirit lol.
The issue around Roadhog is a confluence of other issues in the game.
- Healing is extremely strong and overly simplified. If you don't kill someone immediately and their healers aren't potato they will be full health very quickly. It is a trade of ult charge (dps ult in exchange for enemy support ult) at best or a feed at worst if you do chip damage that doesn't lead anywhere. Meaning burst damage is the most relevant damage in the game.
- Roadhog has an inherently "high cost" to his design. He has a huge fat hitbox. His core ability is a projectile based skillshot. His ult trade is poor because his ultimate is not that great. Anything that has high cost has to confer high benefits in order to be balanced. Because of the aforementioned burst damage problem this leaves one shotting characters his only avenue of adding value.
- The game lacks solo play potential as it is. Theoretically the hook is a powerful repositioning tool that if your teammates are prepared they can help you kill the target. But who's gonna organize that in the hot mess that is an Overwatch pub? Part of the reason the "dive meta" is so obnoxious is that even in high level play on streams not everyone is on the same page to focus on a target. This is why some people are trying to copy the Korean method of just being as loud as possible and ululate the character's name like Xena Warrior princess and hoping you intimidate your team to curb under your warrior spirit lol.
TWrecks310
Banned
I think we're on the same page now. I agree about changing heroes that are unfun to play or play against, but it is a dangerous game to play as Blizzard is trying to make Overwatch into a giant esport. Every decision they make needs to factor in pro level play first and foremost or they are making a mistake. There's also the argument that Roadhog will never work unless he has the ability to one shot heroes, but I feel like that's for the future to decide.
I think Blizzard kind of knows the messed up the Hog changes, or else they wouldn't have worked to buff him immediately. Keep in mind that in the patch notes for their decision to change him they stated that his DPS would be the same because of his increased fire rate and higher clip size. I definitely got the vibe that the Hog changes were meant to be a rework and not a nerf, but I guess that's open to interpretation.
What do you guys feel about Roadhog getting a 20% damage boost on his next shot after he heals himself?
I think Bastion's damage reduction passive is the most recent one. I also recall them fiddling around with McCree's range a lot early on too.
I think Bastion's damage reduction passive is the most recent one. I also recall them fiddling around with McCree's range a lot early on too.
Karsticles
Member
It would be pretty backwards. You hook, shoot, and then heal. You can't expect people to hold their shot for a hook combo for the next 6 seconds after healing.
Yep, lol
Looking only through the len of high level play isn't always a good idea either, especially if the majority of your playerbase will never play at that level.
I'm not saying you in particular do this, and I think Roadhog needs additional work, but Roadhog being a low level pubstomper (an assumption on my part but I bet that's where the majority of his complaints were/are from) is not healthy. I can also assume that since he is being worked on so often compared to most characters despite his (lack of) presence in pro play, this is what is fueling Blizzard's motivation into adjusting Roadhog. So that feedback clearly matters. Despite what people on here or the forums say, Blizzard is not doing this for no reason. Reworking a character over and over again can't be fun or easy for them.
I also agree with finalflame in general. Roadhog reminds me a lot of Blitzcrank in LoL but without a lot of his downsides. If Blitz misses his hook the CD is ~15 seconds and he's melee so he ain't doing nothing else, and he's still banned a lot by lowbie elos cause it's so strong when he lands it and a lot of people aren't skilled enough to dodge it regularly (and of course those game winning lucky hooks, yay). Roadhog by comparison got to try again in a few seconds and could even soak/shoot in the meantime. Yes, he has other (significant) downsides, you can't 1:1 compare LoL vs OW, and he probably is actually somewhat balanced with his theoretical strengths/weaknesses in a bubble, but that did not translate well to general gameplay. I'm sorry for the people that liked his playstyle, but I honestly do not miss him. I hope they do make him a better character so fans can play him again without feeling marginalized, but it is what it is.