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Straight Black Men Are the White People of Black People

Regarding black people vs others in the LGBT movements ...

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...88/crunch-the-numbers-on-blacks-views-on-gays

I chatted with Lewis today about what the polls might tell us about black views on homosexuality. And as he crunched some numbers, he found that black opinion on gays — to the extent that there's a "black opinion" on anything — isn't really easy to define. You've got to hold a bunch of disparate ideas in your head at once; Lewis found that black folks are less likely than white people to believe that homosexuality is "not wrong at all" (25 percent to 40 percent).2 He also found that the gap is true even when he controlled for other variables like educational attainment, church attendance and age. Yet blacks have historically been more likely to support nondiscrimination initiatives for gay people. The "black church," long held up as the vector for black opposition to homosexuality, includes many outspoken clergy members who have been instrumental to same-sex marriage initiatives.


Last year, NPR's Corey Dade spoke to All Things Considered's Audie Cornish just after President Obama's announcement to put the shifting black support on gay marriage into context. "A Pew research poll recently showed that black opposition to gay marriage is now down to 49 percent from 2004 when it was at 67 percent," he said. "And notably, that opposition actually receded more quickly after 2008. And obviously then we had the election of President Obama, and since then, more young voters have come into the electorate who are more open to gay rights."

What about Proposition 8, California's 2008 ballot initiative banning same-sex marriage whose passage was chalked up by many to increased black turnout for Obama? The statistician Nate Silver ruled out black voter turnout in 2008 as the reason Proposition passed. For one, the much-cited claim that 70 percent of black voters wanted the ban was inflated. "At the end of the day, Prop 8's passage was more a generational matter than a racial one," he wrote. " If nobody over the age of 65 had voted, Prop 8 would have failed by a point or two. It appears that the generational splits may be larger within minority communities than among whites, although the data on this is sketchy."

Basically it's messy data and it's incredibly misleading to suggest Black people dislike gay people more than white people because of that.
 

Kebiinu

Banned
Word? That's one exclusive club..

Lol are y'all deliberately being obtuse? Jamaica? Parts of Africa? The deep south? I'm talking about BLACK men, since this is a BLACK issue. Of fucking course white people oppress, antagonize, and even kill us. My concern is with BLACK men, killing their fellow black people, over something as trivial as sexual orientation. Y'all are tryna spin my words into something that ONLY black people experience. Point is, a white LGBT still has more privilege over a black LGBT person. This can not be disputed, as much as y'all don't like it. Not even white LGBT respect us.

Like...lol, don't be dense.
 

Keri

Member
I don't really know if this fits in this thread, but since the OP seems to bring up a need to focus attention on issues that affect black women, I'm going to mention this here: The United States has the worst maternal mortality rate in the developed world . And this disproportionately affects black women. Women generally, but most especially black women, are dying in the United States at staggering rates, for no reason, but this issue doesn't seem to get much attention. I think this is definitely something people should be more aware of.
 
Basically it's messy data and it's incredibly misleading to suggest Black people dislike gay people more than white people because of that.

It's a bizarre comment. Every group has those that are silly about LGBT people..not sure where this black people kill gays comes from. Last I checked, plenty of other races have shot, hung, dragged, or stoned homosexuals..

---

And you can take your "y'alls" somewhere else, son..
 
It's a bizarre comment. Every group has those that are silly about LGBT people..not sure where this black people kill gays comes from. Last I checked, plenty of other races have shot, hung, dragged, or stoned homosexuals..

Prop 8 in California. The black community took A TON of fucking heat over it's passage. Nate wrote his piece shortly after but the narrative was already set.
 
Black people (who are against the LGBT community) tend to be more outspoken about their opposition to LGBT versus whites (who are against the LGBT community) who tend to be more two-faced/passive aggressive.
 

weepy

Member
I guess as far a social hardships go, straight black men would have it "easier". I have to recognize this as a straight black male myself. I have more representation than: straight black women
gay black men
Gay black women
trans black men
trans black women
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
This is literally what I was saying. Lol, thank you.


Also churches - white churches are often super corrosively homophobic, which is sad but unsurprising. But it IS surprising when black churches, who themselves know EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS TO BE VICTIMIZED end up victimizing their own.

Sadly this is a complex outcropping of human nature, that is, how do I assert myself over others, all the way down the chain.

LBJ said it “best” but you could replace white man with black man and black man with gay man and it’s the same chain.

Lyndon b Johnson said:
If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.


(Certain kinds of) Churches have to create enemies in order to create a standard of righteousness for themselves. Without an adversary, they have no easy moral calibration for the dumber members. Any church that asks you to pay money to the church itself rather than charity should be looked at with a sideye anyway. Christ only committed one act of violence in the Bible, and it was to turn over the tables of the money changers. Everything was lamb except that. That was lion.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Good stuff. More reason why people need to stop believing silly stories and start believing (really just thinking about) well reasoned arguments, backed with data.
It makes all the difference because starting point matters. If your base supposition is incorrect or not back up by anything the worth analysis you'll get out is minimal. Junk in, junk out.
 
Black people (who are against the LGBT community) tend to be more outspoken about their opposition to LGBT versus whites (who are against the LGBT community) who tend to be more two-faced/passive aggressive.

You should meet my recheck neighbors..met them during the hurricane. Had to step away after they berated some gay kid just walking by minding his own..

This is literally what I was saying. Lol, thank you.

Still wrong..congrats on the win..
 

llien

Member
What is this about:

NFL’s long history of mishandling and outright ignoring far worse crimes against black women.

What is NFL in this context, national football league? What does it have to do with mistreating black women?
 
What is this about:



What is NFL in this context, national football league? What does it have to do with mistreating black women?

Likely the amount of players that have straight knocked out their wives/girlfriends and players barfly recurring a slap on the wrist..but at least they salute the flag lol.
 
You should meet my recheck neighbors..met them during the hurricane. Had to step away after they berated some gay kid just walking by minding his own..



Still wrong..congrats on the win..

That's why I used the word "tend". I'm talking about the white suburban mom who is friendly with a gay coworker and doesn't "seem" homophobic but when it's time to prove that via voting for some measure, votes against the community while the next day say they are sorry for what happened to the gay coworker even though they were one of the people to help it pass.
 

Mesoian

Member
What is this about:



What is NFL in this context, national football league? What does it have to do with mistreating black women?

The NFL being complacent with it's players/owners/employees engaging in volence against women. See Ray Rice.. 2 game suspension for something that would have gotten any other black man in this country arrested and jailed almost immediately.

The NFL is a bad company all around, but they're so ingrained in nationalism and so held up as a symbol of being able to escape the traditional idea of a poverty-stricken life that it has an almost religious standing.
 
That's why I used the word "tend". I'm talking about the white suburban mom who is friendly with a gay coworker and doesn't "seem" homophobic but when is time to prove that via voting for some measure, votes against the community while the next day say they are sorry for what happened to the gay coworker even though they were one of the people to help it pass.

Well I don't know what black folks you running with, but I personally hear more openly homophobic garbage from white and Latin folks..and I'm talking constantly. Only got one cat I know that's hung up on that gay shit, and that brother be watching duck dynasty and listening to country lol..making it unsurprising.

take THAT black men!

So THAT'S why I got called a cracka nigga..
 

Kebiinu

Banned
You should meet my recheck neighbors..met them during the hurricane. Had to step away after they berated some gay kid just walking by minding his own..



Still wrong..congrats on the win..

Wrong on what? That black LGBT experience homophobia from all races including their own? My literal argument? Ima throw you a bone because you keep tryna bite.
 

creatchee

Member
How can people call on others to recognize their privileges without acknowledging their own? Doing so doesn't diminish the plight of the oppressed.

Privilege is interesting. I imagine it as a ladder where the top rung is very clearly defined and the every rung underneath is obscured. The position of any particular rung is based on a combination of very specific specifications (some analog and some digital) - much like a synthesizer is a combination of different settings to produce a particular sound. Synthesizers work by taking a signal and subtracting things from it to produce sound (much like a statue is carved out of a block of marble). Some examples would be races (although the actual skin color would be a a completely different analog setting), economic status, sexual identity, gender identity, family background, amongst a whole lot of other things.

Now after a non-top rung person's formula is determined we can approximate the location of that rung based on a comparison to the top rung, but we cannot with certainty and precision ascertain its position. Also, it's hard to compare where each individual rung should be in relation to each other. Furthermore, the fact that everything below the top is obscured poses a completely different problem - we don't know how many rungs there actually are on the ladder, so we can never really know how many are above or below any particular rung.

Where this all comes into play in the real world is this: different groups of people experience varying degrees of privilege depending on how similar they are to the the top rung of our privilege ladder, which I would argue is the straight, white, multigenerationally wealthy, cisgendered male with great political power and influence (there are other factors, but let's keep it slightly simple for now). Anybody who is not EXACTLY of that archetype can claim lack of a certain privilege. And everyone who is not EXACTLY of that archetype can claim some level of oppression from that archetype. Now obviously, nobody is going to lose sleep over a straight, white, multigenerationally wealthy, cisgendered male with only medium political power and influence being oppressed by the top rung, but there is definitely a hierarchy, and oppression does not only come from the very top rung.

For example, a gay, white, middle class, cisgendered male with no political power and influence can still oppress a straight, black, multigenerationally poor, cisgendered female with no political power and influence as easily as somebody could oppress him from a higher rung. Privilege is basically the removal of a specific factor that would otherwise leave you open to a oppression based on that factor. It's not one on/off switch or a sum - it's one of any number of factors, and it's absence in one category does not preclude its presence in another, just as being oppressed does not preclude a particular person from oppressing somebody else.

Where this all comes into play on the topic at hand is that nobody who is being oppressed wants to hear that they are oppressing somebody else. Nobody who lacks a certain privilege wants to hear that they have a privilege that others lack. So many white people hate it when they are called privileged - especially those who have not had it too well economically, or who have been harassed because they are not straight or cisgendered, etc. We've seen in this thread that black men don't want to accept that black women have it harder than them in terms of privilege because they are both black and women - two traditionally and institutionally oppressed groups for the same person. Whether we want to hear it or not, we still have to accept it if we are to break the damned ladder in the first place. Because the worst thing those of us who have a privilege or privileges can do is to take them for granted and ignore the pleas of those without them. It doesn't make them just as bad as those on the top rung, but it does seem a bit tone deaf and hypocritical to do so.
 
I despise the blacks vs gays narrative. My white liberal in-laws keep bringing it up to tsk Black people. It's so intellectually lazy.
Black people (who are against the LGBT community) tend to be more outspoken about their opposition to LGBT versus whites (who are against the LGBT community) who tend to be more two-faced/passive aggressive.
Yup. To add, white homophobes are the ones bankrolling anti-LGBTQ legislation and groups as well.
 

D i Z

Member
How old are you to be able to make a statement like that? After integration and the civil rights movement is when systematic oppression really began to pick up its paces. That's when the real attacks on the black family began, that's when the real attacks on the black self-image began, that's when the deliberate destruction of the positive culture/revolutionary music that black people were putting out began. Before civil rights black people were victims of murder with no consequences, after the civil rights movement, black people became the victims of some of the most vicious psychological warfare that has ever been put on a people.

So what you're saying may be true, but not for the reasons that you think they're true. Black people didn't just fall apart.

Truth.
 
Privilege is interesting. I imagine it as a ladder where the top rung is very clearly defined and the every rung underneath is obscured. The position of any particular rung is based on a combination of very specific specifications (some analog and some digital) - much like a synthesizer is a combination of different settings to produce a particular sound. Synthesizers work by taking a signal and subtracting things from it to produce sound (much like a statue is carved out of a block of marble). Some examples would be races (although the actual skin color would be a a completely different analog setting), economic status, sexual identity, gender identity, family background, amongst a whole lot of other things.

Now after a non-top rung person's formula is determined we can approximate the location of that rung based on a comparison to the top rung, but we cannot with certainty and precision ascertain its position. Also, it's hard to compare where each individual rung should be in relation to each other. Furthermore, the fact that everything below the top is obscured poses a completely different problem - we don't know how many rungs there actually are on the ladder, so we can never really know how many are above or below any particular rung.

Where this all comes into play in the real world is this: different groups of people experience varying degrees of privilege depending on how similar they are to the the top rung of our privilege ladder, which I would argue is the straight, white, multigenerationally wealthy, cisgendered male with great political power and influence (there are other factors, but let's keep it slightly simple for now). Anybody who is not EXACTLY of that archetype can claim lack of a certain privilege. And everyone who is not EXACTLY of that archetype can claim some level of oppression from that archetype. Now obviously, nobody is going to lose sleep over a straight, white, multigenerationally wealthy, cisgendered male with only medium political power and influence being oppressed by the top rung, but there is definitely a hierarchy, and oppression does not only come from the very top rung.

For example, a gay, white, middle class, cisgendered male with no political power and influence can still oppress a straight, black, multigenerationally poor, cisgendered female with no political power and influence as easily as somebody could oppress him from a higher rung. Privilege is basically the removal of a specific factor that would otherwise leave you open to a oppression based on that factor. It's not one on/off switch or a sum - it's one of any number of factors, and it's absence in one category does not preclude its presence in another, just as being oppressed does not preclude a particular person from oppressing somebody else.

Where this all comes into play on the topic at hand is that nobody who is being oppressed wants to hear that they are oppressing somebody else. Nobody who lacks a certain privilege wants to hear that they have a privilege that others lack. So many white people hate it when they are called privileged - especially those who have not had it too well economically, or who have been harassed because they are not straight or cisgendered, etc. We've seen in this thread that black men don't want to accept that black women have it harder than them in terms of privilege because they are both black and women - two traditionally and institutionally oppressed groups for the same person. Whether we want to hear it or not, we still have to accept it if we are to break the damned ladder in the first place. Because the worst thing those of us who have a privilege or privileges can do is to take them for granted and ignore the pleas of those without them. It doesn't make them just as bad as those on the top rung, but it does seem a bit tone deaf and hypocritical to do so.
It's tough on some people. There are so many light skinned latinos that think they have it as bad as black people.
 

besada

Banned
Virtually everyone has some measure of privilege. If you accept the basic understanding of privilege, this is pretty undeniable. Straight privilege, mental health privilege, first world privilege, whole body privilege, etc.

Do black men have it rough? Yes. Do mentally ill black men have it rougher? Yes. Do disabled black men have it rougher? Yes.

If you can't accept your own privilege, you need to take a long look at whether you really believe in the concept, or that it's just convenient for you.
 
Also churches - white churches are often super corrosively homophobic, which is sad but unsurprising. But it IS surprising when black churches, who themselves know EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS TO BE VICTIMIZED end up victimizing their own.
Here's my problem with this- Why should empathy for gay people immediately click with a Black person just because that person experiences and understands racism?

Its like saying I should hold white women more accountable for racism than white males because as a woman who experiences sexism, she should empathize with my black ass. That doesn't make sense to me.
 

llien

Member
Virtually everyone has some measure of privilege. If you accept the basic understanding of privilege, this is pretty undeniable. Straight privilege, mental health privilege, first world privilege, whole body privilege, etc.

Do black men have it rough? Yes. Do mentally ill black men have it rougher? Yes. Do disabled black men have it rougher? Yes.

If you can't accept your own privilege, you need to take a long look at whether you really believe in the concept, or that it's just convenient for you.

I have a question about the concept.

So if we have individual 1 and individual 2, with only 2 distinct traits.
First trait makes individual 1 more privileged.
But second trait makes individual 2 more privileged.

So, to figure which of the two persons is more privileged, one needs to compare 2 privileges.
For that to work, privileges should be numerically measurable (and hence comparable)
But are they?

If not, ladder is a too simplistic way to think about it.
 
How old are you to be able to make a statement like that? After integration and the civil rights movement is when systematic oppression really began to pick up its paces. That's when the real attacks on the black family began, that's when the real attacks on the black self-image began, that's when the deliberate destruction of the positive culture/revolutionary music that black people were putting out began. Before civil rights black people were victims of murder with no consequences, after the civil rights movement, black people became the victims of some of the most vicious psychological warfare that has ever been put on a people.

So what you're saying may be true, but not for the reasons that you think they're true. Black people didn't just fall apart.
Can you expand on the music part? I am not familiar with the revolutionary spirit of Black music from decades ago. I've always been suspicious, though, of the narrowing down of contemporary rap radio to just hedonism or violence when there was much more representation (and pro black messaging) within mainstream rap culture two decades ago. You're dropping knowledge in here.
 

VegiHam

Member
You know the white dudes who insist that the real problem is economic inequality and that everyone else should stop talking about other issues until that one is solved; and then they'll go away themselves. Like, racism and homophobia and transphobia are problems we should ignore because the only fight is between rich and poor and how dare you suggest that they, as a poor person, are responsible for any oppression themselves?

Some straight black men sound a lot like that, but with white supremacy instead of economic inequality. Just like how many white feminists want to focus solely on the patriarchy. There's a privilege that comes with only experiencing one (or a few) axis of oppression where you can just overlook intersectionality as irrelevant to your self. Hell as a white gay man I see it a lot with white gay men not caring about any minorities at all.
 

besada

Banned
I have a question about the concept.

So if we have individual 1 and individual 2, with only 2 distinct traits.
First trait makes individual 1 more privileged.
But second trait makes individual 2 more privileged.

So, to figure which of the two persons is more privileged, one needs to compare 2 privileges.
For that to work, privileges should be numerically measurable (and hence comparable)
But are they?

If not, ladder is a too simplistic way to think about it.

A ladder IS too simplistic a way to think of it. It's not a ladder because no one has a single trait. Privilege is a thing we all possess, some more, some less, depending on their individual situation.
 

creatchee

Member
I have a question about the concept.

So if we have individual 1 and individual 2, with only 2 distinct traits.
First trait makes individual 1 more privileged.
But second trait makes individual 2 more privileged.

So, to figure which of the two persons is more privileged, one needs to compare 2 privileges.
For that to work, privileges should be numerically measurable (and hence comparable)
But are they?

If not, ladder is a too simplistic way to think about it.

That's why, in my example, I put that the only rung in the ladder that is visible is the top rung - every other rung is obscured. We know the effects that the removal of a particular privilege has on somebody in relation to the top, but we can never be certain where the disenfranchised are in relation to each other in the grand scheme of things. That said, in your example there are only two people and two traits, which would be difficult to indicate trends and plot data. However, we don't live in a two dimensional world and we have many people and classifications to divide them into. We still don't know for sure, but we can still have a decent guess.

And that may be where the problem comes from for some people - that feeling of the unknown where you know that many people are on top of you (metaphorically) but you don't quite have a perspective as to how many that number is and where it puts you in the grand scheme of things. I can imagine that it's frustrating as all hell.
 

Kebiinu

Banned
Here's my problem with this- Why should empathy for gay people immediately click with a Black person just because that person experiences and understands racism?

Its like saying I should hold white women more accountable for racism than white males because as a woman who experiences sexism, she should empathize with my black ass. That doesn't make sense to me.

Black people should immediately emphasize with black LGBT because they're oppressing their fellow black people. Which is why I said you can't be Pro-Black if you're not Pro-LGBT. White women got a shit ton of flack for voting for Trump. Once studies came out about 47% of White Women voting for Trump, there were articles upon articles about how they should have known better, due to Trump and his sexism.

You should not expect White Women to be immediately empathetic with racism, because racism does not and will never affect her.

Black LGBT exist and rely on our community, and it affects us. We have black LGBT family members, black LGBT in black churches, black LGBT businesses...our skin and culture should unify us. So when black people partake in homophobia, that's privilege. When black men come at black women for not being submissive enough, that's privilege.

It's definitely harder being a gay black male, or black woman, than it is being a straight black male. Because we don't just experience oppression from OUTSIDE our race, but within it, too.
 

RDreamer

Member
This is the dumbest way to word this ever. Privilege isn't a checkbox. You don't have it or not. Different privileges exist, and we almost all have some. Some people have a shit-ton of privileges (cis-gendered straight white dudes) and some might have a few compared to others. Black males aren't the fucking "white people of black people" though. That's just terrible wording. Do they have some privileges that black women don't? Yes absolutely. Do they also have their own unique hardships and do white men have more privilege than them, though? Yup.
 

llien

Member
A ladder IS too simplistic a way to think of it. It's not a ladder because no one has a single trait. Privilege is a thing we all possess, some more, some less, depending on their individual situation.

When you said "accepting your privilege", what did you mean? Acknowledging, that you have it better than someone else?

That said, in your example there are only two people and two traits, which would be difficult to indicate trends and plot data. However, we don't live in a two dimensional world and we have many people and classifications to divide them into. We still don't know for sure, but we can still have a decent guess.

I think you misunderstood the example.
Comparing two persons is enough, because if A > B and B > C, then A > C. If you can compare two, you can sort any number of persons by their privilege.

As for number of traits, having even MORE traits, makes ladder even LESS feasible, with core problem, again, remaining that privilege is not quantifiable.
 

creatchee

Member
Black people should immediately emphasize with black LGBT because they're oppressing their fellow black people. Which is why I said you can't be Pro-Black if you're not Pro-LGBT. White women got a shit ton of flack for voting for Trump. Once studies came out about 47% of White Women voting for Trump, there were articles upon articles about how they should have known better, due to Trump and his sexism.

You should not expect White Women to be immediately empathetic with racism, because racism does not and will never affect her.

Black LGBT exist and rely on our community, and it affects us. We have black LGBT family members, black LGBT in black churches, black LGBT businesses...our skin and culture should unify us. So when black people partake in homophobia, that's privilege. When black men come at black women for not being submissive enough, that's privilege.

It's definitely harder being a gay black male, or black woman, than it is being a straight black male. Because we don't just experience oppression from OUTSIDE our race, but within it, too.

An interesting parallel is the separation of the black and women's suffrage movements in the 1800's. The two movements started off as one, but eventually drifted away when it became clear that either white women or black men were going to get the right to vote with the 15th Amendment, but not both. The white women suffrage movement ended up becoming pretty racist in its opposition of the 15th and supporting the (what would have been) 16th to allow white women the right to vote.

Obviously, nobody knows what would have happened if the front stayed united in cause and message, but the rift that happened between the two opened up a lot of wounds that would stay weeping for the better part of a half of a century (and probably longer, to be honest).

The point being, staying together and fighting as one is preferable than segregating within and adding "buts" to one's crusade.
 

Unbounded

Member
A ladder IS too simplistic a way to think of it. It's not a ladder because no one has a single trait. Privilege is a thing we all possess, some more, some less, depending on their individual situation.

But my issue is that in the majority of discussions regarding privilege is people always treat it as some sort of linear scale. Almost as if every single descriptor has some sort of point value attached to it. It sort of kills any potential nuance or deeper reflection in the discourse imo.
 

besada

Banned
When you said "accepting your privilege", what did you mean? Acknowledging, that you have it better than someone else?

It's understanding that you were born, through no effort of your own, into a station that privileges you in some way. For everyone in a first world country, it means understanding that they got incredibly lucky with where they were born. For straight people it means understanding that society is designed for you, and it's not designed for gay people. For whites it's acknowledging that in the U.S. the society is designed for us and protects us in ways that non-whites aren't protected.

But my issue is that in the majority of discussions regarding privilege is people always treat it as some sort of linear scale. Almost as if every single descriptor has some sort of point value attached to it. It sort of kills any potential nuance or deeper reflection in the discourse imo.
In my experience conversations of privilege usually stall out because people simply refuse to acknowledge it. And sure, a lot of people complaining about privilege have their own privileges. But often, when we're discussing it, we're discussing a specific situation in which one area of privilege is important. For example, if we're discussing whether black men are as employable as white men, it's not that much of a problem to collapse the discussion down to white privilege, because we are talking about a single trait.

But in larger discussions people should certainly recognize that they too have privileges. The vast majority of us should be thanking our luck on a daily basis, because we are whole and healthy and live in countries where bombs don't routinely rain from the sky. I think it's probably good for everyone to understand that even in their darkest hour, they don't have it as bad as some do.
 
I guess as far a social hardships go, straight black men would have it "easier". I have to recognize this as a straight black male myself. I have more representation than: straight black women
gay black men
Gay black women
trans black men
trans black women
There are more women though.
 

Litan

Member
An interesting parallel is the separation of the black and women's suffrage movements in the 1800's. The two movements started off as one, but eventually drifted away when it became clear that either white women or black men were going to get the right to vote with the 15th Amendment, but not both. The white women suffrage movement ended up becoming pretty racist in its opposition of the 15th and supporting the (what would have been) 16th to allow white women the right to vote.

Obviously, nobody knows what would have happened if the front stayed united in cause and message, but the rift that happened between the two opened up a lot of wounds that would stay weeping for the better part of a half of a century (and probably longer, to be honest).

The point being, staying together and fighting as one is preferable than segregating within and adding "buts" to one's crusade.
This sounds like bullshit to me.
White women werent any less racist than white men in the 1800s, yet you're saying they became 'pretty racist' after some rift in social movements?
 

LordKasual

Banned
Virtually everyone has some measure of privilege. If you accept the basic understanding of privilege, this is pretty undeniable. Straight privilege, mental health privilege, first world privilege, whole body privilege, etc.

Do black men have it rough? Yes. Do mentally ill black men have it rougher? Yes. Do disabled black men have it rougher? Yes.

If you can't accept your own privilege, you need to take a long look at whether you really believe in the concept, or that it's just convenient for you.

i'm curious what people think, what exactly is the significance of the concept, then? At least, as it relates to those with less privilege than you?

"Straight White Male" privilege is significant because all things considered, it's pretty much the luckiest combo to be born into. That makes it a good reference point.

But what exactly is the point of chopping it up and assigning it to sub classes like this? I assume the reason this ridiculous article title would catch flak is because it's attempting to frame the difference between "straight black male" and "black woman" as severe as one between "straight white male" and "black male", and bringing everything that gap has along with it. Which is so incredibly reductive that i can only imagine the author of that article either has a narrow world view, or just doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Pointing privilege out to someone on top of the world (comparatively anyway) means something. But telling a poor straight white man that he's super privileged for being straight and white and male is likely to just get you slapped in the face.

Privilege IS convenience, but that convenience isn't something you can divide into points and put on paper. Without a good, solid reference, as a metric it is inherently meaningless, and unlikely to spur anyone to view their life any differently. That's my issue with the article, anyway.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Here's my problem with this- Why should empathy for gay people immediately click with a Black person just because that person experiences and understands racism?

Its like saying I should hold white women more accountable for racism than white males because as a woman who experiences sexism, she should empathize with my black ass. That doesn't make sense to me.

That's too specific. I'm just saying Christians should be more accepting. And black christians have more personal experience of being discriminated against. Not up to me how these folks carry out their lives.
 
You know the white dudes who insist that the real problem is economic inequality and that everyone else should stop talking about other issues until that one is solved; and then they'll go away themselves. Like, racism and homophobia and transphobia are problems we should ignore because the only fight is between rich and poor and how dare you suggest that they, as a poor person, are responsible for any oppression themselves?

It's not that people think reducing income inequality will make bigotry go away. It's the argument that if you focus on minority identity politics, the masses who do not see any benefit from that, will gang up on that proposal and go to the right. Hench in America, white people moving to the conservatives.

The argument for reducing income inequality is the oldest and most effective capitalistic trick in the book- If xenophobic people see the benefit of the economic proposals as well, they are more willing to share. It's a question of how you wrap the proposal. It's the difference between being perceived as minorities emptying the coffers when there is increasingly less and less to give from the vanishing middle class, as opposed to a model where conservatives are willing to embrace higher taxes, and welfare solutions due to the fact that they see a tremendous benefit from themselves.
Everyone votes selfishly, and if you look at countries with conservative parties that embrace strong taxation and welfare states, you can see this puppy in action. I guess it's not a thing in the US, but in the EU you have right-wing parties that favor social economic policy that vastly benefit minorities, and let them bypass some of the institutional bigotry and get them into positions of power.



Some straight black men sound a lot like that, but with white supremacy instead of economic inequality. Just like how many white feminists want to focus solely on the patriarchy. There's a privilege that comes with only experiencing one (or a few) axis of oppression where you can just overlook intersectionality as irrelevant to your self. Hell as a white gay man I see it a lot with white gay men not caring about any minorities at all.

Selfishness. That's all there is to it. But shaming and stereotyping people on their color and gender, only furthers toxicity and stigmatization. You feel bad about your gender or race doesn't lead to action. It doesn't help anybody. It only activates negative emotions as well as the idea that everything in the world is a social construct where it's okay to divide and judge people into boxes. You're a 2, he's a 5, shes an 8, and this is how much their suffrage is worth. That's how much their pain is worth. This is how we grade them. He ain't shit. She should stay in her fucking lane. Fuck that guy. My pathos based personal experience trumps rationality and reason. Fuck anything that isn't my mental construct.

Just because people are selfish and look to their own needs before others, doesn't mean that people have to or deserved to be judged on exteriors they don't choose. I greatly dislike oppression Olympics and the idea of privilege. It doesn't help anybody. It only turns into toxic semantic discussions that gets further away from genuine appreciation for all the advantages of oneself, as well as negating the humility you should have towards others struggles.

Furthermore, you'll be surprised about how many struggles people have, that they don't speak up about. Many people have been dealt bad cards by life, the system, circumstances, society or whatever that was outside of their control, and all of those people deserve some sort of justice. But it's not sustainable. The smug self-hatred of feeling superior to your own ascended knowledge of your superior QOL doesn't put food on the table for others or help them in any meaningful way.

The left is cannibalizing itself, because there is increasingly little or few people who pass the purity test. Nobody can live up to these standards. Everyone is virtually a bigot, and a racist and doesn't care appropriately about some oppressed group. And that gives way to persecution complex with democrats, liberals and minorities ganging up on one another.
 
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