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[OG Shaka Zulu]

All that really matters. Disfunction in the black american community can be pointed 100% to slavery and the following systematic oppression. 100% of it, including the odd relationship between black men and women.

Can you expand on this? I am a Black American but am not ethnically African-American, so I'm curious.

 

[jordan0386]

Lots of things.

Systematic oppression is the appropriate answer.

 

[zelas]

Were done here.

Saying that black men needs to hold ourselves responsible in our own communities is not a divide and conquer tactic. We are often the perpretors of domestic abuse against black women as well as transphobia and homophobia.

Holding ourselves accountable is one thing. But I'm not sure I can get behind the mindset that says black men should be seen as better off overall because of that metric alone. Black men too are often the perpetrators of violence against black men. When it comes to physical violence by an intimate partner black men (36%) are almost as likely to be victims as black women (40%).

The general claim seems to be rooted 100% in specific subjective circumstances that ignore way too many other circumstances. When the author is cherry picking and tossing aside equally relevant circumstances then its not hard to see why some are seeing it as a "divide and conquer" tactic or just plain bias. I hate having to say that anything regarding rape is splitting hairs but when you're discounting other huge social and economic barriers, that can foster rape and other sexual violence themselves) it really is splitting hairs. Gender inequality itself is not a one way street nor can each instance of it be measured 1:1 in impact across the board.

Large scale sexual violence against black women is perpetrated by black men. 1in 5 black women experience rape at some point in their lives, the highest among any racial group in the US.

Native american women.

 

[jordan0386]

Can you expand on this? I am a Black American but am not ethnically African-American, so I'm curious.

There is no odd relationship. Its just propaganda to divide and conquer.

 

[foodtaster]

Systematic oppression is the appropriate answer.

Sure, if you believe black men have no responsibility whatsoever for their [current] circumstances, outside of that.

 

[Beefy]

Black women have to deal with both gender inequality and racial inequality. Black men who fail to recognize this are one part of the larger issue. Sounds about right.

Clickbait headline aside, it shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.

Black hetrosexual men

 

[jordan0386]

Sure, if you believe black men have no responsibility whatsoever for their [current] circumstances, outside of that.

If your held in prison for the same crimes longer than others. What else should that be labeled as?

 

[schwabdizzle]

That's a really fucking stupid title.

This.

 

[foodtaster]

If your held in prison for the same crimes longer than others. What else should that be labeled as?

I'm not disagreeing with you, however it's not like Black men are hopeless, either. See: black women.

 

[jordan0386]

Is a Black Male not a gender?

Does a Black Male not face gender inequality?

Lunar15. I'm still waiting for a response.

 

[Earthbound64]

lol..No worries. Was poking fun of some dude that said it was a GAF thing. Been hearing that phrase since a was a kid..

Ah, I see, alright.

 

[jordan0386]

I'm not disagreeing with you, however it's not like Black men are hopeless, either. See: black women.

Judging by the crux of this article. It would seem like we are.

If we're oppressing people who are in the same fight as them.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

People sure like creating artificial divisions.

This. Holy shit. What black men, women, and children have had to endure is unconscionable. Do we really need to inject this divisiveness into their collective plight?

 

[Kebiinu]

Just here to say that I'm more likely to be called a faggot by a fellow black male, than I am by a random white man. Even within the BLM movement, you have plenty of people advocating against the label "toxic masculinity" by linking "care free black boy" with flower filters, and crop tops. Completely missing the point. I've had literal arguments with black men and women about how if they're not pro-LGBT they're not Pro-Black. Don't even get me started on Hotep niggas....

Theres a lot we need to do within our community, unfortunately.

 

[jordan0386]

Just here to say that I'm more likely to be called a faggot by a fellow black male, than I am by a random white man. Even within the BLM movement, you have plenty of people advocating against the label "toxic masculinity" by linking "care free black boy" with flower filters, and crop tops. Completely missing the point. I've had literal arguments with black men and women about how if they're not pro-LGBT they're not Pro-Black. Don't even get me started on Hotep niggas....

Theres a lot we need to do within our community, unfortunately.

Proximity.

Try harder.

 

[FranF]

How old are you to be able to make a statement like that? After integration and the civil rights movement is when systematic oppression really began to pick up its paces. That's when the real attacks on the black family began, that's when the real attacks on the black self-image began, that's when the deliberate destruction of the positive culture/revolutionary music that black people were putting out began. Before civil rights black people were victims of murder with no consequences, after the civil rights movement, black people became the victims of some of the most vicious psychological warfare that has ever been put on a people.

So what you're saying may be true, but not for the reasons that you think they're true. Black people didn't just fall apart.

Quoted for truth

 

[Angelus Errare]

What's the old saying? When white people catch a cold black people get pneumonia

I have never heard of this but I will be using this.

How old are you to be able to make a statement like that? After integration and the civil rights movement is when systematic oppression really began to pick up its paces. That's when the real attacks on the black family began, that's when the real attacks on the black self-image began, that's when the deliberate destruction of the positive culture/revolutionary music that black people were putting out began. Before civil rights black people were victims of murder with no consequences, after the civil rights movement, black people became the victims of some of the most vicious psychological warfare that has ever been put on a people.

So what you're saying may be true, but not for the reasons that you think they're true. Black people didn't just fall apart.

Preach that truth fam!

People acting like once civil rights act passed, black folks just said "Fuck it, let the family dysfunctia begin!" The sheer level of remedial thought processes needed to even suggest this is just...mindblowing.

 

[Gin-Shiio]

People sure like creating artificial divisions.

This. Holy shit. What black men, women, and children have had to endure is unconscionable. Do we really need to inject this divisiveness into their collective plight?

I really don't understand this sentiment. Being the victim of one problem doesn't mean you aren't cause for another. Everyone ought to reassess their actions for a better tomorrow.

 

[Kebiinu]

Proximity.

Try harder.

Lmfao, are you black and gay? I live in NYC, and as much as I love black men and women, the homophobia runs deep in culture. Every single instance I've experienced blatant homophobia, it was from another minority. I'm not saying white people AREN'T homophobic, but they're much more subdued with it. This is a real issue within the LGBT black community. We experience homophobia and oppression from all races, including our own. And that's why it stings.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Mr. BOLD MY WORDS IN ALL CAPS TO IGNORE THE ISSUES OF BLACK WOMEN

 

[foodtaster]

Lmfao, are you black and gay? I live in NYC, and as much as I love black men and women, the homophobia runs deep in culture. Every single instance I've experienced blatant homophobia, it was from another minority. I'm not saying white people AREN'T homophobic, but they're much more subdued with it. This is a real issue within the LGBT black community. We experience homophobia and oppression from all races, including our own. And that's why it stings.

Are you claiming black people are more homophobic than the general populace? If so, where is the evidence?

 

[jordan0386]

Lmfao, are you black and gay? I live in NYC, and as much as I love black men and women, the homophobia runs deep in culture. Every single instance I've experienced blatant homophobia, it was from another minority. I'm not saying white people AREN'T homophobic, but they're much more subdued with it. This is a real issue within the LGBT black community. We experience homophobia and oppression from all races, including our own. And that's why it stings.

So white gay people dont get insults?

Insults are exclusive to straight black men?

Are straight black men writing legislation against the LGBT?

Enlighten me...

 

[jordan0386]

Are you claiming black people are more homophobic than the general populace? If so, where is the evidence?

By proxy of religious beliefs will be the default answer.

Wait on it,

 

[Muppet of a Man]

I really don't understand this sentiment. Being the victim of one problem doesn't mean you aren't cause for another. Everyone ought to reassess their actions for a better tomorrow.

I'm not downplaying the issue. I'm calling foul on the comparison. No, straight black men are not the straight white males of the black community. The situations are different, even though sexism and bigotry against LGBTQ persists. Just call them for what they are rather than making a ridiculous comparison "for the clicks".

 

[AJLma]

Don't really see the reason why you had to attack my age. My central idea was that post-civil rights movement was a strong factor in the fall of black families ignoring my sloppy writing.

And no my point wasn't that "us black just fell apart" but thanks for the ad hom.

Ok, so I see you're not actually here to learn whether what you said is correct or incorrect. The civil rights movement, which was something that was no doubt a net positive for black people around the world, not just America, is not the the reason that the black family is disintegrating today. Systematic, nationwide oppression is the sole, 100% reason.

Your central idea is silly. I attribute it to that fact that you must be young to make a statement like that, and the lack contextual evidence to back up your claim is all the proof needed.

Can you expand on this? I am a Black American but am not ethnically African-American, so I'm curious.

I say "Odd" because that's just what it is, systematic oppression is aimed at both black men and women in different ways, with women, destruction of their self-image is the weapon of choice, for men, denial of opportunity. You've gotta have both, if Black men feel inadequate in a society where they're not able to be 100% of themselves, or reap 100% of what they deserve from their labor, then an unoppressed black woman would be able to raise her man up. Vice versa for the men, the men would raise up the women despite what articles like this try to claim. We're getting 100% of both, but trying to fight it, maintain and still contribute and fit into this society at the same time. It's too much, full time awkward, so naturally our households are a disaster.

 

[Cyanity]

Yeah, no. (Straight) black men also have the highest chance of being killed because of gang violence, going to prison, poor educational attainment, etc. In fact, black [women] are pretty much better of or equal in every measurable metric.

A better article would be that light-skinned blacks are the white people of black people, which is literally true.

In short, what a dumb article. If you look at the entire demographic and not ridiculous exceptions, like entertainers and sports people, black women are way better off than black men. There are more black men in prison than in college.

Man, what happened to analyzing an article in a constructive way? Why does something we disagree with have to be "dumb"? The OP article is a different perspective on a longstanding issue. It's worth discussing, not dismissing. C'mon Neogaf, we're better than this.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

So white gay people dont get insults?

Insults are exclusive to straight black men?

Are straight black men writing legislation against the LGBT?

Enlighten me...

So black people can't be homophobic because they don't make laws according to you? Are you serious?

 

[LCGeek]

Are you claiming black people are more homophobic than the general populace? If so, where is the evidence?

You mean like this.... Here are stats for 2016.

You're evidence claim is nothing more than your ignorance and ego ignoring what is out there. The fact you are pulling that shit in this kind of topic vs having anything useful to offer speaks volumes.

The only reason you don't know of that evidence is because you literally don't have balls to do a google search yourself.

I would say when the majority of these deaths are of POC and committed by POC we have a problem.

 

[foodtaster]

Man, what happened to analyzing an article in a constructive way? Why does something we disagree with have to be "dumb"? The OP article is a different perspective on a longstanding issue. It's worth discussing, not dismissing. C'mon Neogaf, we're better than this.

There's nothing to analyze. It's a glorified unsubstantiated anecdote. Are we to seriously analyze any random story some person gives? Please.

You mean like this....

You're evidence claim is nothing more than your ignorance and ego ignoring what is out there. The fact you are pulling that shit in this kind of topic vs having anything useful to offer speaks volumes.

The only reason you don't know of that evidence is because you literally don't have balls to do a google search yourself.

I would say when the majority of these deaths are of POC and committed by POC we have a problem.

That isn't evidence of the claim that was made above. Trans people being murdered, even if POCs have a higher rate, does not mean black people are more homophobic. To prove that you would need to know how often people of certain demographics murder people of other demographics (such as trans) and control for the amount of trans people in the area.

It's very well possible you're correct, but conjecture isn't useful.

 

[jordan0386]

You mean like this....

You're evidence claim is nothing more than your ignorance and ego ignoring what is out there. The fact you are pulling that shit in this kind of topic vs having anything useful to offer speaks volumes.

The only reason you don't know of that evidence is because you literally don't have balls to do a google search yourself.

I would say when the majority of these deaths are of POC and committed by POC we have a problem.

Call a cab. You are clearly drunk.

 

[Foreign Jackass]

You know what else?

On top of being the white straight males of this planet, white straight males are also the white straight males of white people.

 

[LordKasual]

so i guess Lightskinned Straight Black Males are the "white people" of "Straight Black Males"

hold up, lemme get a to-go box for all this extra squandered privilege i've got spilling over

 

[Lunar15]

Black hetrosexual men

Fair point, I left out the entire LGBT angle of the article. my bad.

How can people call on others to recognize their privileges without acknowledging their own? Doing so doesn't diminish the plight of the oppressed.

 

[jordan0386]

So black people can't be homophobic because they don't make laws according to you? Are you serious?

The implication isn't that Blacks are homophobic. Its that their more homophobic than everyone else. lol.

 

[Principate]

There's nothing to analyze. It's a glorified unsubstantiated anecdote. Are we to seriously analyze any random story some person gives? Please.

Basically the problem. It has a click bait title it's points are poorly defended. At what point are you separating an ill thought out opinion piece for interest and a revenue from a genuine properly back up article.

Anyway pointing out junk points in an argument is worth while criticism. Not everything idea has merit and it's not an issue when someone points this out.

 

[Kebiinu]

So white gay people dont get insults?

Insults are exclusive to straight black men?

Are straight black men writing legislation against the LGBT?

Enlighten me...

What's your argument? Black men literally kill other black men/women for being gay. The black community in general has heavy disdain for the LGBT. When people found out Deray (founder of BLM) was gay, they spun BLM into a "gay agenda."

You're taking the truth personal. I'm not saying white gays don't get antagonized, but I'm concerned with BLACK men, and how they will kill/antagonize fellow black men, just for their sexual orientation. If you're trying to argue against that, you're wrong. It's an actual issue our community suffers from. On the totem pole, black LGBT are beneath even black women.

Stop tryna do this "what about..." bullshit when I'm talking about MY community, and I hope yours too.

 

[Lunar15]

Basically the problem. It has a click bait title it's points are poorly defended. At what point are you separating an ill thought out opinion piece for interest and a revenue from a genuine properly back up article.

Anyway pointing out junk points in an argument is worth while criticism. Not everything idea has merit and it's not an issue when someone points this out.

What points in the article do you disagree with? Which ones are poorly defended? It's a pretty fluffy opinion piece, but I don't really see much radical with what it's trying to say.

 

[diaspora]

Lmfao, are you black and gay? I live in NYC, and as much as I love black men and women, the homophobia runs deep in culture. Every single instance I've experienced blatant homophobia, it was from another minority. I'm not saying white people AREN'T homophobic, but they're much more subdued with it. This is a real issue within the LGBT black community. We experience homophobia and oppression from all races, including our own. And that's why it stings.

So white gay people dont get insults?

Insults are exclusive to straight black men?

Are straight black men writing legislation against the LGBT?

Enlighten me...

Are you stupid?

 

[foodtaster]

Basically the problem. It has a click bait title it's points are poorly defended. At what point are you separating an ill thought out opinion piece for interest and a revenue from a genuine properly back up article.

Anyway pointing out junk points in an argument is worth while criticism. Not everything idea has merit and it's not an issue when someone points this out.

Agreed. I'm surprised this thread has this many pages. At the very least the article should have tried to present some evidence/data that black men are *especially* misogynistic. An article claiming that is fine, but it should back up the assumptions, first.

For example the author states:

Intraracially, however, our relationship to and with black women is not unlike whiteness's relationship to us. In fact, it's eerily similar.

OK, great. I'm sure they'll have some stats to back that claim up... (he never does).

We're the ones for whom the first black president created an entire initiative to assist and uplift. We're the ones whose beatings and deaths at the hands of the police galvanize the community in a way that the beatings and sexual assaults and deaths that those same police inflict upon black women do not.

Huh? Black women got beat as well, and we also had the black first lady, OK. By the way, Obama is just as white as he is black, whereas Michelle and the children are majority Black. Let's not mention that, though...

And nowhere is this more evident than when considering the collective danger we pose to black women and our collective lack of willingness to accept and make amends for that truth.

Hey, more unsubstantiated claims.

Can't say I'm surprised. Like the author says, black men have poor educational attainment, haha. Joking aside, this is a trash article that really doesn't warrant serious discussion. It's a shitpost, basically. The only conclusion we can draw from this article is that its author, per their experiences, is sexist and is trying to project that on all black men.

 

[jordan0386]

What's your argument? Black men literally kill other black men/women for being gay. The black community in general has heavy disdain for the LGBT. When people found out Deray (founder of BLM) was gay, they spun BLM into a "gay agenda."

You're taking the truth personal. I'm not saying white gays don't get antagonized, but I'm concerned with BLACK men, and how they will kill/antagonize fellow black men, just for their sexual orientation. If you're trying to argue against that, you're wrong. It's an actual issue our community suffers from. On the totem pole, black LGBT are beneath even black women.

Stop tryna do this "what about..." bullshit when I'm talking about MY community, and I hope yours too.

and white LGBT are beneath white straight women. within context.

You're trying to make the case that anti gay rhetoric is something exclusive to blacks and it cant be explained why that is.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Are you claiming black people are more homophobic than the general populace? If so, where is the evidence?

Rap music!

 

[Just_myles]

Agreed. I'm surprised this thread has this many pages. At the very least the article should have tried to present some evidence/data that black men are *especially* misogynistic. An article claiming that is fine, but it should back up the assumptions, first.

I saw this in my social feeds and avoided giving them a click. Not surprised it's on GAF.

 

[Cyanity]

Basically the problem. It has a click bait title it's points are poorly defended. At what point are you separating an ill thought out opinion piece for interest and a revenue from a genuine properly back up article.

Anyway pointing out junk points in an argument is worth while criticism. Not everything idea has merit and it's not an issue when someone points this out.

Sure, you're not wrong. And I think comparing straight black men to straight white males is probably more harmful than not. As I read the article in the OP, I'm starting to realize that their argument is essentially "The POC community is frustrated by the white community's unwillingness to admit its racism, while that same POC community fails to address real issues of violence within itself." From what I can tell, the argument is essentially the same old "black on black violence is the problem", but from a different perspective (within the POC community). It's becoming harder for me to actually glean any actual useful insights from this article the more I read it.

 

[Lunar15]

Agreed. I'm surprised this thread has this many pages. At the very least the article should have tried to present some evidence/data that black men are *especially* misogynistic. An article claiming that is fine, but it should back up the assumptions, first.

I actually didn't see anywhere in the piece where it said that black men were *especially* misogynistic. There's nothing in the article that specifically points to black men as worse than any other race at anything.

It's a relatively simple article, almost to the point of being obvious. It's kind of crazy that it's inspired this much backlash, title aside.

 

[xandaca]

Holding ourselves accountable is one thing. But I'm not sure I can get behind the mindset that says black men should be seen as better off overall because of that metric alone. Black men too are often the perpetrators of violence against black men. When it comes to physical violence by an intimate partner black men (36%) are almost as likely to be victims as black women (40%).

What page is that stat on? I've never seen it before and can't find it in the survey. Not questioning you, just trying to find out more.

 

[LordKasual]

What's your argument? Black men literally kill other black men/women for being gay.

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

so we just gonna take this at face value?????

nobody gonna ask for elaboration?

well ok

 

[Principate]

What points in the article do you disagree with? Which ones are poorly defended? It's a pretty fluffy opinion piece, but I don't really see much radical with what it's trying to say.

Most of the basic assertions/points lack any sort of stats. Which is fine as "pure here are my thoughts" but when the title is click bait and you make a whole bunch of points that aren't back up by any sort of stats it doesn't leave a positive impression of the arguments worth as a resource. There's plenty of sociology papers on this stuff.

I feel like this is the case of the author needing to go back to drawing board pick up some hardcore stats and base his argument on that.

 

[foodtaster]

I actually didn't see anywhere in the piece where it said that black men were *especially* misogynistic. There's nothing in the article that specifically points to black men as worse than any other race at anything.

It's a relatively simple article, almost to the point of being obvious. It's kind of crazy that it's inspired this much backlash, title aside.

It's not explicitly stated, but rather is the undertone. For example:

But when black women share that we pose the same existential and literal danger to them that whiteness does to us; and when black women ask us to give them the benefit of the doubt about street harassment and sexual assault and other forms of harassment and violence we might not personally witness; and when black women tell us that allowing our cousins and brothers and co-workers and niggas to use misogynistic language propagates that culture of danger; and when black women admit how scary it can be to get followed and approached by a man while waiting for a bus or walking home from work; and when black women articulate how hurtful it is for our reactions to domestic abuse and their rapes and murders to be ”what women need to do differently to prevent this from happening to them" instead of ”what we (men) need to do differently to prevent us from doing this to them," their words are met with resistance and outright pushback.

Nothing is wrong with this language, however the emphasis on blackness implies a uniqueness that is unproven. In other words, if you removed the word "black" and the race connotations would it be any more or less true? The titular phrase (used in the article itself as well) implies a power dynamic, and privilege unique to the black man/women dynamic that is not only unsubstantiated, but basically exaggerated by the lack of discussion of misogyny in general.

They are not believed in the (predominantly white) world or in their (predominantly black) communities. And we (black men) remain either uninterested in sincerely addressing and destructing this culture of danger and pervasive doubt or refuse to admit it even exists.

The reason black men are not interested is because its not a "black" problem to begin with. The end. This is a standard pro-feminism article that gets wrapped up in a strange, incorrect view that there is something somehow unique about it in the black community or that black men in general should be uniquely concerned. Both of which are not correct. Black men should care about it just as much as Asian and White men, not more, or less. For what its worth, *everyone*, Black, Asian and White should be concerned, but the racial undertones of the article kills what little point it was trying to make.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Black men literally kill other black men/women for being gay.

Word? That's one exclusive club..

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Most of the basic assertions/points lack any sort of stats. Which is fine as "pure here are my thoughts" but when the title is click bait and you make a whole bunch of points that aren't back up by any sort of stats it doesn't leave a positive impression of the arguments worth as a resource. There's plenty of sociology papers on this stuff.

I feel like this is the case of the author needing to go back to drawing board pick up some hardcore stats and base his argument on that.

But you admit there is some privilege there.