Why would you compare racism and homophobia to nudity? Makes no sense.
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Interesting Article: There is no smart reason for naked women in video games
- Thread starter miku
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Why would you compare racism and homophobia to nudity? Makes no sense.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yea man you're right it has absolutely nothing to do with one gender wanted to be treated equal, nah they just can't handle constantly being objectified, damsels in distress, and given terrible backstories to justify terrible character design. /s
They probably can but most of them have no reason to graciously overlook that a lot of the female nudity in games is horribly out-of-place and destroys a character's believablity. That's not true for nudity in general, of course, just for a lot of the nudity that's shown up in games. (That being said, like I've said previously, that should certainly not mean that games cannot or should not portray nudity.)
They're comparing racism and homophobia to sexism. Now, whether you agree with them on what constitutes sexism, that's a different matter, of course.
Acquiescence
Member
Lol, this is great.
I prefer it when devs are upfront about their inclusion of fanservice/nudity and don't try to justify it via silly reasonings that aren't going to convince anyone. Don't beat around the bush, just say that it's there because sex sells.
Btw, that cartoon Quiet is way hotter than the one that appears in the game.
I don't think he meant to say it could only be tender.
The style of the game really makes a difference. In a game that tries to hit a serious tone like MGS5—despite the fact that MGS games are always a bit weird and full of silly humor—the reason for showing Quiet's boobs is just unbelievable and just plain stupid. And also a tiny bit insulting to the gamer. I don't need a pretentious, pseudo-intellectual explanation for the fact that Kojima just wanted to show boobs and ass.
If the game is generally over-the-top, unrealistic, and features exaggerated characters then I have no real problem with 'unsophisticated' nudity.
Uhm, yeah. I just posted two posts about how the tone makes a difference
.
EventHorizon
Member
There are two really good "smart reasons" for naked women in video games.
1) The target audience for those games like it
2) The games sell more to that targeted audience
Complaining about naked women in video games is like complaining about naked women at a strip club. It's a feature not a bug.
1) The target audience for those games like it
2) The games sell more to that targeted audience
Complaining about naked women in video games is like complaining about naked women at a strip club. It's a feature not a bug.
Uhm, yeah. I just posted two posts about how the tone makes a difference
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just used your post to jump into the discussion.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
False equivalency of the year candidate right here.
KurtSloane
Banned
I don't see any issues with nudity in any media, enforcing an accepted context or method would not go over well in any other medium so why are we trying to set rules upon this one.
If someone wants to add nudity in an arbitrary manner that has nothing to do with the story / setting / context etc then so be it, it does not require justification.
Does an artist have to justify painting a naked woman, or doing a study solely of male genitalia? No.
So if Kojima wants to add a half dressed sniper into the game with the flimsiest of reasons as to why then so be it, its not like it would be any less nonsensical than the rest of the game.
A lot issues these days seems to be nothing more than pepple trying use a medium as a place to fight a political posistion, any old place where their agenda can be raised.
Agendas are really easy to spot at play, if most of these people put their energies into creating alternatives to broaden the spectrum of content within the medium to appeal to all perspectives then a game about guns, guys and the odd scantily dressed woman would be no issue.
By trying to make all things be acceptable to all people we create nothing but middle of the road, by the numbers content that concerns itself more to following a checklist of what's OK and not the creators intended vision.
If someone wants to add nudity in an arbitrary manner that has nothing to do with the story / setting / context etc then so be it, it does not require justification.
Does an artist have to justify painting a naked woman, or doing a study solely of male genitalia? No.
So if Kojima wants to add a half dressed sniper into the game with the flimsiest of reasons as to why then so be it, its not like it would be any less nonsensical than the rest of the game.
A lot issues these days seems to be nothing more than pepple trying use a medium as a place to fight a political posistion, any old place where their agenda can be raised.
Agendas are really easy to spot at play, if most of these people put their energies into creating alternatives to broaden the spectrum of content within the medium to appeal to all perspectives then a game about guns, guys and the odd scantily dressed woman would be no issue.
By trying to make all things be acceptable to all people we create nothing but middle of the road, by the numbers content that concerns itself more to following a checklist of what's OK and not the creators intended vision.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Naked women in video games is not a feature, holy shit. Video games are not in anyway shape form equivalent or even comparable to strip clubs, the fuck. Oh and here's a tidbit
-The target audience isn't just males anymore
-The target audience that likes that is actually smaller than the target audience that does, hence why they're thankfully becoming a niche.
Besides ofc the sexism when it comes to female characters in media. But no no let's ignore that.
Narrative writers will come up with a justification for the simplest most trivial things when it comes to a male protagonist, while a female character will get boobs and a skimpy outfit and a flimsy justification, this is a huge issue.
False equivalence.
Yes it is, especially when it's stated by the creator to be the antithesis of women in games wearing skimpy outfits.
Terrible interpretation of why these issues are always brought up and discussed heavily, try reading why it's an issue.
Oh not this "Make your own game" shit again, ugh...
The creator's intended vision can treat the opposite gender as equal, it's not that hard. Half the work is designing a character with a sensible outfit.
MGS has never been shy about the human body, male or female. Doesn't make Quiet's design and Kojima's justification for it any less silly.
Zomba13
Member
You'll just be told that all the Male nudity is played for laughs but the female nudity is for serious.
KurtSloane
Banned
Who said the intended audience is not male, who do you think has been buying these games mostly over the years (with reference to MGS specifically in this instance)?
It's a game about a lone wolf soldier fighting in the most absurd game world against different boss bad guys, its like a mish mash of 80's action tropes and a poorly done espionage thriller.
Of course it slanted to males.
TatteredHat
Member
I don't really think it's necessary for developers to go out of their way to make up elaborate reasons for using nudity in character design. I do kinda like it when you can sort of see real life inspirations for the character like with the Dragon's Crown Sorceress (as was mentioned in this thread before) but that just makes the design itself feel more cohesive, it's not lore-based reasoning.
Having said that, the article is a bit too condescending for my tastes, so I give it a 5/10.
Having said that, the article is a bit too condescending for my tastes, so I give it a 5/10.
No one is trying to enforce anything.
EventHorizon
Member
Care to actually make an argument and I'll discuss it with you.
Sex sells. The inclusion of naked women would tend to disprove your points. You have a really difficult argument to make if you are trying to say that using naked women is not intended to increase sales. If that were true then video games would be the only media where that was the case.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The only example there that could be possibly used to titillate and isn't for
-comedy
is the Kaz thing. Just showing a male with a shirt off isn't sexualization.
-The intended audience is not just males. Look up any recent study, males are not the only ones buying video games despite the sexism.
You're the one ignoring recent trends, especially in the triple A space:
To reiterate
If you're putting off half of your target audience than you're making less money, many devs know this. This also moves the medium forward since female characters are generally becoming better written and treated better than in the past.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Strip Clubs exist for women (or men, but this discussion is focused on women) to undress. Saying an entire medium does too is incredibly misguided.
Was the male nudity ever actually presented in a sexually titillating way, though? Again, I haven't played the games so I'm just basing this off of stuff I've read/seen, but yeah, going off of that all or most of the male nudity MGS was supposedly just presented in a humorous way, not in a sexy way like the female nudity. Can't really comment on whether that's true, though.
KurtSloane
Banned
Really? So complaining about the arbitrary nature of nudity in MGS5 is an attempt at what? Just a mere critique, or rather an attempt to stop such things being included in future versions.
Of course they are, you can see the political grandstanding on these issues and more all the time.
Maybe not all are trying to enforce things upon the medium, but it is disingenuous to say that no one is.
...Scatter...
Banned
MGS didn't seem to hurt for sales. This doesn't mean that all games need or should have nudity. But if a game comes along where nudity occurs can we accept it as fact and move on like adults? Does nudity have to be equal? Do we need to show two dicks for every 4 titties? If Kojima made a game where a half naked dude was purring at me in a chopper I would have to decide if that's big enough of a deal for me to skip the game. Part of me wishes creators would just make a damn sex scene already and stop beating around the bush with innuendos all game.
Also video games are like movies. Some can be about history, some about heists, and some can be about sex. And that's OK. That's why we have ratings. We need to stop treating games as if they're for 12 year olds. Plenty of adults play games and would be happy with adult themes.
Attempt to stop...how? If anyone was trying to pass a law, I would agree with you. But that's not happening.
Sure. Not denying that previous female MGS character designs were somewhat sexualized, but Quiet's design is so much more egregious than everything that came before. A bit of cleavage or bare leg just seems so quaint by comparison.
Just the bits with Kaz and BB hanging out shirtless at the beach in PW, and maybe Snake's make out scenes in MGS3 could be construed as intentionally titillating. The torture scenes and shirtless boss fights are mostly played straight, though Raiden and Johnny Sasaki nudity is definitely played for laughs.
Polioliolio
Member
There's room for everything.
No point in complaining all day or shaming any depiction you don't think is acceptable. Put your money where your mouth is.
There are certainly more games and television these days with nonsexualized heroic female protagonists than ever. That's a great victory an there's a market for it and that's awesome. Certainly more serious stories can be told with more realistic female characters.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with putting attractive women in attractive roles in fictional content even. I scoff at Sex and the City and how it's a show about sex and men and shoes and whatever.. But I'm not angry it exists. Men are sexual creatures just as women are. Sexing up your game is fine if you're playing to that demographic.
Metal Gear also isn't trying to be this super serious drama.. It's incredibly campy at times and fully tongue in cheek at others.. and even if it was meant to be serious, they can write the story and make the content however they want. You don't have to like it, you're free to express your opinion of course, but if you don't like it, and it's not hurting anybody real, I don't see a problem.
The Witcher 3 turns me off personally, as I'm not into hunky men, and I get that vibe from that game. No biggie. Just not up my alley.
I'm not angry about Cortana now wearing clothes apparently.. If that's what they want to do, that's excellent. Just let the content creators create, and gravitate and speak positively about what you do most enjoy.
No point in complaining all day or shaming any depiction you don't think is acceptable. Put your money where your mouth is.
There are certainly more games and television these days with nonsexualized heroic female protagonists than ever. That's a great victory an there's a market for it and that's awesome. Certainly more serious stories can be told with more realistic female characters.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with putting attractive women in attractive roles in fictional content even. I scoff at Sex and the City and how it's a show about sex and men and shoes and whatever.. But I'm not angry it exists. Men are sexual creatures just as women are. Sexing up your game is fine if you're playing to that demographic.
Metal Gear also isn't trying to be this super serious drama.. It's incredibly campy at times and fully tongue in cheek at others.. and even if it was meant to be serious, they can write the story and make the content however they want. You don't have to like it, you're free to express your opinion of course, but if you don't like it, and it's not hurting anybody real, I don't see a problem.
The Witcher 3 turns me off personally, as I'm not into hunky men, and I get that vibe from that game. No biggie. Just not up my alley.
I'm not angry about Cortana now wearing clothes apparently.. If that's what they want to do, that's excellent. Just let the content creators create, and gravitate and speak positively about what you do most enjoy.
I just want to point out that even though some male character are somewhat sexualised there's still a huge difference in the depiction of males and females as a whole in the series.
The series' got a huge variety of male characters: different body shapes, ages, ugly guys and handsome guys, etc. The ones that are sexualised are in the small minority.
On top of being a lot fewer of them (which does make sense in the context), almost every single female character is designed to be sexy and almost all are sexualised.
It does feel somewhat exploitive.
Zomba13
Member
The only male nudity played for laughs in MGS would be the pixelated ass of Johnny, the soldier that has diarrhoea every game. And the soldier/soldiers in their underwear on the Tanker.
Vamp is meant to be a sexy vampire man. Raiden is meant to be a pretty boy to appeal to women (who is stripped naked during a torture scene). Snake being topless is a torture thing (in at least two games it's to let him be shocked better during the torture). Kaz being in his swimsuit is part of the date side-op, there is one for Paz and one for Kaz.
The MGS games do sexualise women, definitely (Quiet, the B&B unit, EVA etc) but I think it's kinda shitty to just say "MGS uses male nudity for the lulz" when most of the time they are half naked/naked because they are getting tortured by the bad guys. And saying stuff like "Man in bathing suit isn't sexualised but woman in bikini is" is also confusing. Yeah, Quiet is hella sexualised but I found it mainly because of the animations and shit Kojima made her do. Stuff like bending over and suggestively posing in the chopper or the rain scene. And so is EVA (but it was more the sexy spy trope, like in James Bond. Not excusing it just saying how that was the basis, she uses her sexuality to get information out of the males by playing them).
It's curious that the mere expression of one's opinion on this topic has been seen as cultural authoritarianism andironicallya form of attempted censorship by so many over the last year.
That's a terrible argument. I don't play games to ogle at women.
KurtSloane
Banned
Nope, just intended for primarily a male audience.
So if it contains only sexy women,.most men won't care. That's called playing to the market.
Or maybe Kojima only wants sexy women in his game, and if so that's his prerogative as its his creation.
Here is an idea, go make a game (supposedly) where the male body is exploited.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's called criticism, it happens everyday, every artist knows this. This political agenda angle isn't working for your argument.
MGS is a long standing franchise and was released on five platforms the day of release compared to being an exclusive in the past.
No, simply, because that's what's been happening for the last 30 years. Criticism is incredibly important for a medium to evolve.
It would certainly be an improvement to have legitimate examples of male sexuality instead of seeing people use so many obvious male power fantasies as examples.
See the above.
The thing is it's never usually any innuendo, most of the time it's just a half naked women there in a plot that takes itself incredibly seriously.
Video games will female sexualization are rarely actually about sex. That's part of the issue as seen directly above.
The fact that people are still trying to say that Metal gear, one of the most melodramatic pieces of video game media ever, which has recently included depictions of child soldiers in Africa, isn't trying to be serious is grating. Especially since the creator disagrees.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
But what about artistic vision?
ARTISTIC VISION, GUYS?
ARTISTIC VISION, GUYS?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Of course it is. Snake hits on all the women and he and the camera focus on Meryl's butt in MGS1. You can kiss sexy pinups of women in MGS2. You are shown first person view of Snake's viewpoint in MGS3 and he leers at women's body parts. MGS4 had the B&B squad which is clearly an attempt to fit models in skintight suits into a setting which is almost laughable on the face of it.
But personally, I think content like that has a right to exist. I just hope it's not all that exists. My proposal is the "make more games that are gender-neutral or female-focused" solution, rather than "destroy the male-focused games".
But if the path to promoting gender-neutral/female-focused games is by criticizing the male-focused games..... by all means, critique away. I just hope we don't actually think they should be removed from existence, or all of them have to inevitably reform into being gender-neutral.
Quiet's cool.
It's somehow funny how the most honest guy of the bunch designed the least sexual character lol
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
And to add to that, it's not like female sexualisation is never played for laughs either. Having that idol video excerpt as an easter egg in the Tanker getting you caught, groping posters raising an alarm, guards being thoroughly incapacitated by the sight of a naked lady in a magazine, Naked Snake being unable to look away from EVA's tits, and so on. There's a bunch of stuff involving naked women that's more humorous than sexy.
Art gets criticism all the time. It's a thing. Literally every artist you name has books upon books upon books analyzing what they made and giving opinions about what it means, how it can be read, what works about it and what doesn't, etc.
Criticism of games for their non-technical content is PROOF that games ARE art, not a hindrance to them reaching that level.
Since literally always.
There is always more to be said about a piece of creative expression than "it sold well" or "it didn't sell well."
Like, I never got super deep into the humanities, but even I know it's goddamn ridiculous to act like criticism and critique is some ridiculous new thing that must not be applied to any artist or creative thing ever.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Here's an alternative idea, stop trying to sidestep critique with "Oh just make ur own game."
You can always tell when someone isn't an artist when they constantly actively oppose criticism or critique of any kind for art. Lord have mercy if they were to attend my university.
KurtSloane
Banned
If it is quite simply criticism then that is fine, all that simply boils down to is a piece of content not being something you liked and why.
Does that mean anyone should pay heed to it? No.
Critique of movies has not stopped movies with naked women in them for arbitrary reasons, so did that medium not evolve.
The existence of one is not a roadblock to the evolution of a medium, creation of content to suit a broader range of tastes rather the abolition of a certain type is how a medium evolves. A medium where all types exist at the same time is an evolved medium.
Decrying a piece of content does not help create more variety, supporting instances of varied work does.
Someone sharing an opinion is not the same thing as someone trying to infringe on your right to do a thing.
I see... the animations are part of it, though. If only females ever do that sort of stuff in the games and males don't, then that's certainly a significant difference. (Of course, our society tends to consider slightly different things sexy for men and women so it may be a bit more complicated than just "oh, no male character ever bent over suggestively" but still.) Also, I'm not sure if torture scenes are much better than "for the lulz". I mean, were those torture scenes actually sexy? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't find actual, non-porn torture scenes sexy
. It's basically all about whether the males were purposefully presented in a sexually titillating way to the same exaggerated extent as the female characters.
EventHorizon
Member
You're the one ignoring recent trends, especially in the triple A space:
To reiterate
If you're putting off half of your target audience than you're making less money, many devs know this. This also moves the medium forward since female characters are generally becoming better written and treated better than in the past.
I only have to look to the article we are discussing to prove you wrong. Are not the following AAA games?
- Beyond: Two Souls
- Halo 5
- Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
I didn't say the entire media does it because that obviously isn't true. I said the games that target the audience that like this kind of content does it. Strib Clubs are good analogy for this. Not all strib clubs have female dancers, but the ones that do are targeting the male audience that favors them. Likewise female strip clubs with male dancers are targeting women who like that.
By your logic aren't each of them making less money by excluding half their potential audience? Your theory says strip club with both male and female dancers should make the most money and put the other ones out of business. Yet here we are with separate strip clubs which indicates that going for the largest potential audience might not always be the best thing to do.
I agree with this article completely.
The title is misleading as the author is not saying there's never any reason for females to be nude in games (for people that just read the headline), he's saying that game makers need to be mature about it so if you want to get a female naked for the purpose of fucking then let them fuck.
There's an interesting sort of parallel I see between movies and games and their desire to balance appeal to the largest audience possible with the amount of mature content.
Whereas in movies studios are afraid to go to that NC-17 rating, games are afraid to go to the equivalent of a R rating, and instead aim for that PG-13 rating.
The title is misleading as the author is not saying there's never any reason for females to be nude in games (for people that just read the headline), he's saying that game makers need to be mature about it so if you want to get a female naked for the purpose of fucking then let them fuck.
There's an interesting sort of parallel I see between movies and games and their desire to balance appeal to the largest audience possible with the amount of mature content.
Whereas in movies studios are afraid to go to that NC-17 rating, games are afraid to go to the equivalent of a R rating, and instead aim for that PG-13 rating.
KurtSloane
Banned
Here's an alternative idea, stop trying to sidestep critique with "Oh just make ur own game."
You can always tell when someone isn't an artist when they constantly actively oppose criticism or critique of any kind for art. Lord have mercy if they were to attend my university.
Oh dear, those who aren't "artists" are not "elightened".
What are you majoring in? Condescension?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It means that the artists should pay heed to it. If every artist was surrounded by yes men who never critiqued their art than the art would would've crumbled long ago. The movie industry has had a shit ton better representations of women since it's inception, it's an older medium and even in older films there are many examples of female characters that put the best written game characters to shame, so while there is still a systemic issue in the film industry, and still pointless sexualization, the industry has evolved. In this case it's not supporting an instance of varied work, you're supporting the status quo.
I see... the animations are part of it, though. If only females ever do that sort of stuff in the games and males don't, then that's certainly a significant difference. (Of course, our society tends to consider slightly different things sexy for men and women so it may be a bit more complicated than just "oh, no male character ever bent over suggestively" but still.) Also, I'm not sure if torture scenes are much better than "for the lulz". I mean, were those torture scenes actually sexy? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't find actual, non-porn torture scenes sexy
Actually Beyond Two Souls iirc sold less copies than it's predecessor. And like it was stated before, many
I never said anything about being enlightened, it's just that non artists should stop trying to pretend that artists do not get constantly critiqued by their peers as well as well as from people who aren't actually artists but are intelligent enough to give a critical analysis of that work. An artist surrounded by yes men is doing themselves a disservice.