-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XV EGX Livestream
- Thread starter benzy
- Start date
- Status
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
That's exactly what they did tho otherwise people wouldn't be talking about versus still because they'd be getting versus
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Enemies that don't casually telegraph their attack for a whole second and wait for you to predict what's about to happen isn't even common in a more hardcore action game with a great combat system. Ninja Gaiden and NG2 basically requires you to constantly block, move, and jump around because the enemy attacks are too quick for you to just sit around and try to see what they're going to do next. It's not a bad design simply because your preference lies elsewhere.
Don't think you can compare both games battle system, since they are widly different. The fact in works well on NG dosn't mean it works well on XV.
ZeroMaverick
Member
Game looks jank af
I have a terrible feeling
I have a terrible feeling
Of course, that would require a great combat system. I can understand the need to constantly block and dodge when you're fighting really tough enemies, but being knocked back constantly by puny little crabs as a result of no telegraphing kind of destroys it, especially if you don't have the means for getting up quickly. Is Noctis really that weak that he has to be down for two seconds after each hit from a crab? An ability like aerial recovery from KH2 would work wonders here, I hope you can get that later in the game.
The whole argument that enemies don't predictably telegraph attacks = bad design still applies and my point still stands. We've seen the devs playing XV by moving Noct around more instead of just staying in one place holding the attack button, It's not that different. Ninja Gaiden is just more hardcore and less forgiving.
Doesn't matter what enemy you're applying it to, they could have used a moogle and if they designed it without drawn out attack telegraphs that doesn't inherently make it bad. This isn't something you can judge just by watching videos. XV already has an attack animation recovery.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Not sure, you got the point I was making.
Sure, but even those games feels more focused, I don't remember full visual dragon customization on Divinity 2, for example.
i don't care about the graphics, it's the quest markers, progress bars and awful VA that bothers me.
YankeeDonB
Member
Enemies that don't casually telegraph their attack for a whole second and wait for you to predict what's about to happen isn't even common in a more hardcore action game with a great combat system. Ninja Gaiden and NG2 basically requires you to constantly block, move, and jump around because the enemy attacks are too quick for you to just sit around and try to see what they're going to do next. It's not a bad design simply because your preference lies elsewhere.
Yeah, this doesn't bother me. There are plenty of tools to deal with it - continuous guard, warping if you get surrounded, the damage cancel from Duscae, your bros helping you back up. As you learn the enemy types and their habits you'll have a better sense of what they're going to do and how to counter it given the tools at your disposal. The idea that all action combat requires a bunch of fakey exaggerated move tells is bizarre to me.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
What I mean is that NG combat is prepared for very fast and deadly enemies, so in that context it works really well.
I don't think XV combat shares those traits with NG, so I think it still could work badly in the context of it's combat system.
They made fun of me in middle school because of that. Rightfully so. Wish I could turn back time and be much cooler... .__.
But there is telegraphing...
TheGreatDirector
Banned
Can't unsee.
theofficefan99
Junior Member
They made fun of me in middle school because of that. Rightfully so. Wish I could turn back time and be much cooler... .__.
I get away with it 99% of the time because all my clothes sag (need new clothes).
This is where the various weapons and weapon switch system in XV come into play depending on the enemies you're fighting. You have weapons like the daggers that allow Noct to be considerably more agile and you can maneuver around enemies easily. The devs playing XV are essentially doing what you would do in a NG fight here, constantly moving around. It's just less frantic.
there's a button that you can just hold down to automatically negate nearly every attack. i'm not sure how a few quick attacks with minimal telegraphy are somehow unfair given it's mechanics.
Casual Outfits:
Ignis>Gladio>>>Prompto>>>>>>>>>>>>Noctis (what were they thinking? XD)
Onion Knight?
This was done for the previous set of casual outfits revealed, but it's still relevant.
I hope we still haven't seen the worst of Noctis' fashion sense, there's further to go.
PSY・S;217967354 said:
The foreshadowing.
The symbolism.
The Last One
Member
Is this the final boss?
To answer my own question, I suppose it's the Jojo's Bizarre adventure fashion philosophy:
They made fun of me in middle school because of that. Rightfully so. Wish I could turn back time and be much cooler... .__.
If you are sufficiently strong/badass, you can dress however the hell you want. Heart-shaped kneepads incoming.
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
The foreshadowing.
The symbolism.
OMG, I'm dying... I'm seriously dying this is so good. XD
Obliterator
Member
That's a lot of layers. Hope it isn't warm outside
GwyndolinCinder
Member
The tell is probably it running towards you, a monster in MH does the same thing.
YankeeDonB
Member
Yup, when you see that angry crab trucking right at you time to get some distance/switch to defense/prepare to counter. It's not rocket science.
chozen
Member
I love this.
theofficefan99
Junior Member
I was playing KH2 Proud mode yesterday, and some enemies literally give a window less than 1 second to dodge/guard/counter their attacks. So... this isn't anything new.
chozen
Member
I don't know if its a poor excuse but with enough practice you can dodge anything or perfect boss fights.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I'll be honest. I saw KH2.8's gameplay in this stream and I think I don't like it. Combat is so floaty and had no weight, control felt so finicky and loose, it's like they built upon DDD which I wasn't a fan of. KH1,2 and BBS felt alot better and grounded while still being fast and responsive and fun.
On the other hand, I'm warming up to FFXV's combat now, especially after the recent impressions.
UberTag
Member
I'm seeing double here. Four Nocts.It's okay guys. The delay gives them time to fix everything./s
stargateheaven
Member
It's looking great. Shame about the crash and the weird bug.
one of my favorite simpsons jokes. XD
one of my favorite simpsons jokes. XD
Death Penalty
Member
A lot of people are giving you crap for this, but I think you're right on the money. This is a horrible design philosophy and I really felt it in Duscae when fighting the behemoth. He felt plainly unfair and was nearly impossible to parry and I think Tabata's quote is the cause of all the fan complaints about it. People are hand-waving it, but the crabs make it look like that sort of nonsense is still present in the final build of the game. It's a shame because it really holds the combat back.
Portugeezer
Member
Looks great. Some of those glitches though... I can see why they delayed.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
YankeeDonB
Member
But the behemoth is supposed to be a hard enemy. If you take the time to learn his moves and habits you can beat him without Ramuh. And, again, re the crabs, they clearly do have predictable patterns and tells, they're just not overtly signposted with some big gamey telegraph.
I don't think making the game's monsters move and attack with somewhat realistic animation is a flaw as long as you have the combat tools to deal with them. I thought we did in Duscae, though it took a while before I felt confident in using them.
Duscae didn't really have any useful mechanics implemented for fighting something like the Behemoth, it was mostly just relying on holding defend. You couldn't even perform air combos at the time or intuitively warp in and out of battle without warping to some lamp post.
Those crab attacks could have easily been avoided with the roll dodge or side step.
Duscae is an underdeveloped combat system. Kind of useless to judge the Behemoth fight based on that when the full combat system is significantly different.
lol these bugs are hilarious. I don't think they're a big deal. No developer with big open worlds are immune to this. The crashes on the other hand need to be fixed. They still got a month, and we've seen plenty of improvements already. However, I still don't expect them to have the game crash free or bug free by release.
Casual Outfits:
Prompto's casual outfit is great once you remove the jacket.
Death Penalty
Member
Yes, I beat the behemoth without Ramuh and because of the way the fight was set up it was zero fun. The behemoth had no meaningful windows of weakness, threw out attacks without an opportunity to detect or counter them and beating him basically boils down to wait for him to attack, poke him two or three times and wait for him to attack again. It's also nearly impossible to reliably predict his parry opportunity. Is he beatable? Yeah. Is he well-designed? I wouldn't say so.
Duscae didn't really have any useful mechanics implemented for fighting something like the Behemoth, it was mostly just relying on holding defend. You couldn't even perform air combos at the time or intuitively warp in and out of battle without warping to some lamp post.
Those crab attacks could have easily been avoided with the roll dodge or side step.
From my experience with the Platinum demo air combos would do next to nothing to make the behemoth fight better as your defensive options are even more limited in the air. Magic could do it, if only because it could take him out from a distance without fully engaging him, but this still makes melee combat against him poorly designed.
Also, as the player was in mid-swing when knocked down by the crabs, dodge roll and side-step would have done nothing to alleviate this. There is some degree of animation canceling implemented in the game now based on PD but enemies can still hand you your butt if you attack when they attack and the crabs attack quickly enough that I don't think it can be considered fair.
It's not that different having played it and PD, and if anything the crabs having such an animation is a good argument that a lot of the flaws of Duscae likely persist.
Guys I'm not saying that this is going to break the game. There are plenty of enemies that are fairly implemented like the magitek axemen, the garulas, etc. However, I have to agree with Exentryk that the idea of prioritizing natural movements over gameplay is ludicrous when designing for a videogame and both builds of the game I played suffered for it.
It reminds meet of Julius(who should have done the game outfits) and Boris Bidjan Saberi.
Sick fit
YankeeDonB
Member
I get all the complaints about animation priority and what-not. And I agree behemoth isn't particularly fun to fight in Duscae (well, at least for more than 5 minutes or so).
But a little situational awareness goes a long way, and I feel the system was designed to have somewhat more of a tactical feel than you get in straight up action. Against goblins and wolves in Duscae I kept getting knocked down in my first few encounters. Then I figured out how to position myself, avoid over-committing to attack chains, how to keep moving, and improved my dodge and counter timing and had no problem. That was gratifying, in part because I learned more than specific attack timing, but also how to use my combat tools to turn various situations to my advantage. I like that they focused on that level of designing encounters and enemies.
But a little situational awareness goes a long way, and I feel the system was designed to have somewhat more of a tactical feel than you get in straight up action. Against goblins and wolves in Duscae I kept getting knocked down in my first few encounters. Then I figured out how to position myself, avoid over-committing to attack chains, how to keep moving, and improved my dodge and counter timing and had no problem. That was gratifying, in part because I learned more than specific attack timing, but also how to use my combat tools to turn various situations to my advantage. I like that they focused on that level of designing encounters and enemies.
It isn't probably, it blatantly is. And judging from that stream, it's the only attack they do.
I now wonder how many people actually play action games with comments like these. I guess it's understandable if you're only coming from past FF entries, but the tells don't seem any worse than what you'd see in Monster Hunter or Souls. XV seems much faster paced than those two if people say you can't compare to Ninja Gaiden. I can see how in maybe past builds of the mechanics it was bad since they didn't give you a blatant button prompt.
It's a bit disappointing that they haven't really showed an area that has wowed me or given me a sense of wonder, but maybe they're just avoiding spoilers (Tenebrae might do it). Or maybe it's a fault of this based on reality aspect. I'm also wondering how many of these bugs would have been in the release version or how many are just problems of a test build.
I don't think FFXV feels any less focused than other recents AAA RPGs like Witcher 3 or Fallout 4 and to be honest those two were pretty rough when they launched as well, so we shouldn't really hold FFXV to higher standards just because. Bugs and gliches are to be expected in this genre.
And interesting that you mention Divinity 2, because it was actually supposed to have Dragon customization, but it got cut because they ran out of time and money. It is a perfect example of having way to high ambition. They cut like half of the game in the end.
Have you read the design documents that come with the Developers Cut? (Fun fact: it was supposed to be an episodic game (8 episodes) with MMO-like multiplayer on top of the singleplayer campaign when they started)
butman
Member
This move still in the lastest version?
It's feel like iceskating instead of dodging, i mean it should be more like Geralt in TW3.
- Status