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Can we discuss the MRA documentary "The Red Pill"?

Basing any kind of real life belief on a film documentary is probably a bad idea.

"Do onto others as you would have them do to you" is probably a better rule to live by. Hard to go wrong with that.
 
Uhmm.. trans women and drag queens? Yes they've made wonderful contributions, but I don't think it's really extended to custody/male suicide in the way that he's referring to (aside of course from LGBT suicide rates, which are also shocking).

That (custody) is also a much more specific and smaller issue that would be fairly easy to mitigate by effective social action. For one, if it effects white males, politicians who are also white males can't wait to do you a solid and score points. However, the topic of male suicide cannot be addressed without going after the elephant in the room of masculinity. And nobody has more of an issue with that last one than both LBGT and feminist activists, so that is a better field to play through if you're going to create social action to make policy changes happen.

These topics are worth discussing, but they can't be done under the 'MRA' umbrella. That's basically sinking the boat before you're out of dry dock.

Also they do not require such an umbrella in order to get attention, so using these issues as a validation is just another exercise "how to play yourself".
 
The same Erin Pizzey who did this

In 2014 the anti-feminist organisation A Voice for Men launched whiteribbon.org as a counter to the White Ribbon campaign,[6][7] adopting graphics and language from White Ribbon.[8] It is owned by Erin Pizzey and has the slogan "Stop Violence Against Everyone".[9] Accused of "hijacking" White Ribbon,[10] the site was harshly criticized by Todd Minerson, executive director of The White Ribbon Campaign, who described it as "a copycat campaign articulating their archaic views and denials about the realities of gender-based violence".[11] The site presents the claim that domestic violence is perpetrated equally by women and men and displays "anti-feminist propaganda".[3]

Literally shitting on these folks


The White Ribbon Campaign (WRC) is a global movement of men and boys working to end male violence against women and girls. It was formed by a group of pro-feminist men in London, Ontario in November 1991 as a response to the École Polytechnique massacre of female students by Marc Lépine in 1989. The campaign was intended to raise awareness about the prevalence of male violence against women, with the ribbon symbolizing "the idea of men giving up their arms."[2][3][4] Active in over 60 countries, the movement seeks to promote healthy relationships, gender equity, and a compassionate vision of masculinity.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ribbon_Campaign

But sure she's a good one. Christ. Do you think we're all idiots?
 
"Reasonable MRA members" are like "reasonable white supremacists"

If that's the company you believe share your views and ideas...they're not "reasonable"
 
Reasonable MRAS like Erin Pizzey who think early feminists were only feminists because of Daddy issues, who think women abused by their parents should just get over it and forgive them, that Feminism is hate speech and should be banned, that women aren't biologically wired for science, that feminists who talk about rape culture a lot are just sad because no one wants to fuck them,

That talks about women like this:

Personally, I don’t get into arguments with mental patients, which is what most feminist women are. Look at them with pity and compassion if you can, speak the truth as you know it.

But if you want a real reaction, pat her on the head and tell her not to worry her pretty little head about it. That’s what I do! I think men have to start using their sense of humor as a weapon. You must get past any sense of anger when you do such things though!


That's your reasonable MRA.

Get out of town.
 

Sunster

Member
Non-sequitur?

I believe his whole point was that it would be constructive to move away from fighting about labels and actually tackling those issues.

His point was that trans people and drag queens paved the way for men to subvert masculine roles and not feminists as if they are mutually exclusive. Then he said feminists do good things but not enough in the way of male custody battles and suicide.

this being a thread about MRA's and The Red Pill, and not those 2 issues alone, I thought I'd ask if he knew of their contributions to said issues.
 

Dai101

Banned
"Reasonable MRA members" are like "reasonable white supremacists"

If that's the company you believe share your views and ideas...they're not "reasonable"

Yup. Just like peaceful ethnic cleansing advocate and eternal fuckboi richard "I'll never be tired of seeing him punched" spencer


giphy.gif
 
"Reasonable MRA members" are like "reasonable white supremacists"

If that's the company you believe share your views and ideas...they're not "reasonable"

There are no reasonable MRA's. They're basically all just assholes that hate women having rights, and the only spectrum is how much they hate women and how many rights they want to take away.
 

lachesis

Member
And nobody really mentions that she built first domestic violence shelter in 1971 and helped many battered women and children, and a first book on domestic violence. Shame.

But to be fair, I didn't know she mentioned things about most women having rape fantasies, so perhaps I was wrong about her.
 

Sony

Nintendo
All you've done is show that you don't know what you are talking about. Comparing feminism as a whole with a niche extremist group like MRA's makes you look naive at best and at worst, malicious.

I don't where you got the impression I meant feminism as a whole. I deliberately wrote modern feminism and feminism nowadays. Read.
 
And nobody really mentions that she built first domestic violence shelter in 1971 and helped many battered women and children, and a first book on domestic violence. Shame.

But to be fair, I didn't know she mentioned things about most women having rape fantasies, so perhaps I was wrong about her.

1971 vs now... people change.

But lol perhaps... how can you read any of that and only conclude that maybe you were wrong.


Because what the fuck is Modern feminism... what is feminism nowdays...

MRAs like Paul Elam are in fact the majority of the movement, on the feminist side the TERFS for example are not.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member

Because Feminism is a complex collection of different theories and beliefs. From TERFs to Sex Positive and Sex Negative feminism to multiracial feminism, there's no such thing as this monolith called "modern feminism". The only thing that binds all beliefs of feminism is that women should be treated and respected equal to men.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Because Feminism is a complex collection of different theories and beliefs. From TERFs to Sex Positive and Sex Negative feminism to multiracial feminism, there's no such thing as this monolith called "modern feminism". The only thing that binds all beliefs of feminism is that women should be treated and respected equal to men.

But how do you explain Feminism nowadays?
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
But how do you explain Feminism nowadays?

Feminism nowadays = "Feminism on the internet as filtered to me by my favorite youtube creators, some people I follow on twitter, and a handful of articles about what those crazy feminists are doing on campuses now."
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
But how do you explain Feminism nowadays?

Easy! Bayonetta.

(I'm slightly serious too, there's actually a lot of feminist debate in gaming about Bayonetta. Some see her as a feminist icon (I do), and other's see her as sexist. It's actually a good view on how different feminism can be.)
 

Sony

Nintendo
Because what the fuck is Modern feminism... what is feminism nowdays...MRAs like Paul Elam are in fact the majority of the movement, on the feminist side the TERFS for example are not.

So you mean "random 20 year olds I choose to lump together on Twitter" or what?

OK, so wanting equality for the sexes. Yeah, your comparison doesn't work.

But how do you explain Feminism nowadays?

Because Feminism is a complex collection of different theories and beliefs. From TERFs to Sex Positive and Sex Negative feminism to multiracial feminism, there's no such thing as this monolith called "modern feminism". The only thing that binds all beliefs of feminism is that women should be treated and respected equal to men.

Thank you all for proving my point. @Ms.Galaxy, thank you for the nuance.When I mentioned modern feminism or whatever, I got the reactions above basially saying you can't generalize a movement, there are different theories and beliefs.

I don't see this nuance when MRA is mentioned. It's inherently evil I guess :/ Just look at this:

There are no reasonable MRA's. They're basically all just assholes that hate women having rights, and the only spectrum is how much they hate women and how many rights they want to take away.

I'm surprised you can't see how vile this discussion is.
 
Thank you all for proving my point. @Ms.Galaxy, thank you for the nuance.When I mentioned modern feminism or whatever, I got the reactions above basially saying you can't generalize a movement, there are different theories and beliefs.

I don't see this nuance when MRA is mentioned. It's inherently evil I guess :/

MRA is a specfic group with inherent anti-feminist ideology.

To say otherwise is akin to saying Gamergate was actually about ethics in video game journalism
 

Sony

Nintendo
MRA is a specfic group with inherent anti-feminist ideology.

To say otherwise is akin to saying Gamergate was actually about ethics in video game journalism

I haven't had the time to catch up with Gamergate, so I'm one of the few people who doesn't have a clue what Gamergate is. However, MRA is a specific group with inherent anti-feminist ideology? Question, what is your opinion on Mike Buchanan?
 

Zekes!

Member
Thank you all for proving my point. @Ms.Galaxy, thank you for the nuance.When I mentioned modern feminism or whatever, I got the reactions above basially saying you can't generalize a movement, there are different theories and beliefs.

I don't see this nuance when MRA is mentioned. It's inherently evil I guess :/ Just look at this:



I'm surprised you can't see how vile this discussion is.

Listen, there are legitimate issues that affect men that are worth discussing, exploring, and addressing. But MRA's are not who we should be engaging in these discussions with. There is no nuance to MRA's, the whole "movement" was born outta toxic masculinity and misogyny. That's their foundations.
 
I haven't had the time to catch up with Gamergate, so I'm one of the few people who doesn't have a clue what Gamergate is. However, MRA is a specific group with inherent anti-feminist ideology? Question, what is your opinion on Mike Buchanan?

You mean this literal anti-feminist

Buchanan quit the Tory party in 2009, after David Cameron announced support for all-women parliamentary candidate shortlists and has applied himself to promoting anti-feminism, and has written three books on the topic. As well as saying that feminism is "vile", Buchanan and his party also believe that “fatherhood is being systematically removed from society” which means “taxpayers are subsidising sperm banks for single women and lesbians”.

Party leader Mike Buchanan, a former Conservative party consultant who started his party in 2013, told The Independent: "If you look at it from a gynocentric perspective, [you say] that all our concern must be for women and girls, to the absolute exclusion of men and boys, they can go home – literally if they want to – [we're] pointing out that women are not these divine creatures.


Speaking passionately on the subject of fathers' rights, Buchanan said: "Men are stripped out of their families and become walking wallets because that suits the state. It’s a very well documented feminist objective of 40 years to destroy the nuclear family. You only need to go back to Germaine Greer’s book [The Female Eunuch, 1970] and women like Harriet Harman and Patricia Hewitt have been doing it ever since," he said. "Oh, God they hate men."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...w-justice-for-men-and-boys-party-9977357.html


Do you guys do this on purpose? Try defend MRAs by literally advancing people as examples who prove that MRAs are exactly what we say they are?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Reasonable activists for men's rights don't call themselves Men's Rights Activists.

Yup. This is about right.

There are legitimate men's issues. Anyone who actually wants to tackle them in good faith would never do so under the banner of MRA. It's a poisoned brand.
 

Sony

Nintendo
First time hearing about him but the first thing I see paints him as banana pants on head crazy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thin...rty-is-depressing-news-for-men-and-women.html


Yes, a quick google search shows the guy is nuts. Now compare him to a MRA that are more grounded. The result is that MRA is nuanced. There are these type of dudes, and people that stand up for issues affecting men without demeaning feminism.

However, I have to admit that after this post:

Listen, there are legitimate issues that affect men that are worth discussing, exploring, and addressing. But MRA's are not who we should be engaging in these discussions with. There is no nuance to MRA's, the whole "movement" was born outta toxic masculinity and misogyny. That's their foundations.

I'm convinced to separate "issues that affect men that are worth discussing, exploring and addressing" from MRA. I assumed the movement was born out of good will and shifted to something toxic rather than being born as a toxic movement. Thanks Zekes!, Ms.Galaxy.

However:
Do you guys do this on purpose? Try defend MRAs by literally advancing people as examples who prove that MRAs are exactly what we say they are?

I can't expect everyone on a message board to be conciderate, but you are simply rude. Take an example to Zekes! and Ms.Galaxy. What do you mean with "you guys".
 
I can't expect everyone on a message board to be conciderate, but you are simply rude. Take an example to Zekes! and Ms.Galaxy. What do you mean with "you guys".

You're the second person to throw out a name to seemingly defend MRAs that was absolutely vile.

Like the last person to defend MRAs through out as an example of a good MRA someone whi thinks women aren't biologically as capable to do science and that feminists who talk about rape culture do so because men won't fuck them.

Hence you guys.


Yes, a quick google search shows the guy is nuts. Now compare him to a MRA that are more grounded. The result is that MRA is nuanced.

:

But those are your typical MRAs

However, I have to admit that after this post

I'm convinced to separate "issues that affect men that are worth discussing, exploring and addressing" from MRA. I assumed the movement was born out of good will and shifted to something toxic rather than being born as a toxic movement. Thanks.



Almost like we knew what we were talking about.
 

Sony

Nintendo
Almost like we knew what we were talking about.

Discussion boards by defintion are filled with people that have more knowledge on a certain subject than the other. The trick is to transfer the knowledge. You can do it in an arrogant, elitist way like you, or you can take examples to the already mentioned posters that actually try to educate someone.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
"Men's Rights Activists" is actually really good branding. Who could be against men's rights? And it invites people who have earnest interest in men's issues to join in.

I was sympathetic to the term when I first heard it 5+ years ago. "Surely this is a diverse group and GAF is just being mean due to the worst examples of them. Maybe GAF is just being dogmatic feminists who don't think men have any legitimate problems because they're in a position of power? I'm sure there is more merit in this group than what they say....."

Unfortunately, it really is a rather antagonistic anti-feminist, anti-women sub-group who have taken this name "MRA". The movement that has been built here is so hostile that it cannot possibly be fertile ground for constructive resolution of men's issues.

To be clear, men do have their own issues in society. And a kind of male issue activist group would be welcomed! But the ones now bearing the name MRA have forfeited their legitimacy as good faith activists because they are actively hostile to potential allies in feminism, activism and just the good sense of normal everyday people. Any MRA talking to a group of normal folk will come across as extremist jackasses.
 

Sunster

Member
"Men's Rights Activists" is actually really good branding. Who could be against men's rights? And it invites people who have earnest interest in men's issues to join in.

I was sympathetic to the term when I first heard it 5+ years ago. "Surely this is a diverse group and GAF is just being mean due to the worst examples of them. Maybe GAF is just being dogmatic feminists who don't think men have any legitimate problems because they're in a position of power? I'm sure there is more merit in this group than what they say....."

Unfortunately, it really is a rather antagonistic anti-feminist, anti-women sub-group who have taken this name "MRA". The movement that has been built here is so hostile that it cannot possibly be fertile ground for constructive resolution of men's issues.

To be clear, men do have their own issues in society. And a kind of male issue activist group would be welcomed! But the ones now bearing the name MRA have forfeited their legitimacy as good faith activists because they are actively hostile to potential allies in feminism, activism and just the good sense of normal everyday people. Any MRA talking to a group of normal folk will come across as extremist jackasses.

when i first heard it in middle school i thought, "lol some lames mad about feminism" got around to looking into it in high school and come to find out, "lol i was right"
 

BreakAtmo

Member
"Men's Rights Activists" is actually really good branding. Who could be against men's rights? And it invites people who have earnest interest in men's issues to join in.

I was sympathetic to the term when I first heard it 5+ years ago. "Surely this is a diverse group and GAF is just being mean due to the worst examples of them. Maybe GAF is just being dogmatic feminists who don't think men have any legitimate problems because they're in a position of power? I'm sure there is more merit in this group than what they say....."

Unfortunately, it really is a rather antagonistic anti-feminist, anti-women sub-group who have taken this name "MRA". The movement that has been built here is so hostile that it cannot possibly be fertile ground for constructive resolution of men's issues.

To be clear, men do have their own issues in society. And a kind of male issue activist group would be welcomed! But the ones now bearing the name MRA have forfeited their legitimacy as good faith activists because they are actively hostile to potential allies in feminism, activism and just the good sense of normal everyday people. Any MRA talking to a group of normal folk will come across as extremist jackasses.

Yeah, I'm convinced that whoever came up with the name did so with the explicit purpose of fooling people like Sony into believing that it was a term for anyone who advocated for men's issues. It's so broad and general, and doesn't sound like a hate group at first glance. The only hint at something nastier is that it refers to 'men's rights' as though men are actually lacking any rights. 'Men's issues'/'Male issues', like you said, is more accurate, compared to feminism which has in fact had to fight for women's rights, like the right to vote or reproductive rights.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
Since we're talking about nuance, Sony, there's many types of men's movements. For example, there's the male liberation movement which subscribes to the feminist theory of the patriarchy being a negative force against men as well. There's the pro-feminist men's movement which allies with feminist movements and vice versa to promote equal rights. There's the Fathers' rights movements who, depending on which branch and organization you talk to, can be pro-feminist or anti-feminist and debates of what rights the father should have on topics of abortion, child care, custody, and so on.

But when it comes to MRAs, these people are not being honest with their goals. A majority who carry this label are anti-feminist and reactionary. They tend to be like GamerGate, using the topic of men's rights as a shield from criticism of their sexist behaviors.

Basically, MRAs are the TERFs of the men's movement. Horrible people with toxic beliefs that do nothing good for the cause.

Masculism/Men's Movement is the general movement that compares with Feminism/Women's Liberation Movement.

Try not to mistake MRAs as the general term for the Men's Movement.
 
Yes, a quick google search shows the guy is nuts. Now compare him to a MRA that are more grounded. The result is that MRA is nuanced. There are these type of dudes, and people that stand up for issues affecting men without demeaning feminism.

There have been many posts in this thread that list actual advocates for men's rights. Almost none of them use the 'MRA' label. It was spoiled from the get go. "Men's Movement", while having many problematic branches, does contain legitimate groups as well. Those who actually attempt to resolve the issues facing men tend to be individuals who also react positively to feminism, as they understand the goals for both are gender equality, and hope to join their works in establishing it.

Look to people like Michael Messner and Michael Kimmel, not MRAs.

Edit: I meant to say "Men's Movement", not "Men's Rights Movement" which is the problematic branch I reference.
 
I've been considering watching it. Especially after hearing Laci Green talk about it, I'm genuinely curious to see what it has to say.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
when i first heard it in middle school i thought, "lol some lames mad about feminism" got around to looking into it in high school and come to find out, "lol i was right"

Looks like you nailed it!

I think some people are a little too quick to dismiss men's issues because "men have it all already", which isn't necessarily true... but ultimately, you got this one right.

Yeah, I'm convinced that whoever came up with the name did so with the explicit purpose of fooling people like Sony into believing that it was a term for anyone who advocated for men's issues. It's so broad and general, and doesn't sound like a hate group at first glance. The only hint at something nastier is that it refers to 'men's rights' as though men are actually lacking any rights. 'Men's issues'/'Male issues', like you said, is more accurate, compared to feminism which has in fact had to fight for women's rights, like the right to vote or reproductive rights.

That's a really good point. The "rights" part almost seems like a troll against actual marginalized peoples who have been deprived rights.

I'm sure men have unresolved issues in society... but "rights"? Men have all the rights that have ever been granted by society.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I wonder how much of the pushback against feminism is solely due to the fact that the word begins with "fem".
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
A feminist.

I think feminism will clear away 90% of the gender inequality that leads to men's issues.

But there is still room for a special interest group that will pay special attention to men's issues. Feminism is on the right track, but without a specific discourse dedicated to men's issues, they will tend fall to by the wayside I think.

If you haven't been keeping up with my posts in this thread, it ain't anyone close to MRA who can do that. They've forfeited any right to good faith activism.
 

hodgy100

Member
I think feminism will clear away 90% of the gender inequality that leads to men's issues.

But there is still room for a special interest group that will pay special attention to men's issues. Feminism is on the right track, but without a specific discourse dedicated to men's issues, they will tend fall to by the wayside I think.

If you haven't been keeping up with my posts in this thread, it ain't anyone close to MRA who can do that. They've forfeited any right to good faith activism.

feminism deals with mens issues because to get rid of the problems that plague women they must also get rid of some of the problems that plague men.

breaking down traditional gender roles goes a lot of good for both men and women.
 
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