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Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
(03-06-2012, 03:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by robin2

UFO and Jagged Alliance 2, are two of the best best turn based tactical games ever, and they use TUs/Action Points: how can they be so good if that system is so deleterious as you make it sound? Maybe it just isn't, rather it is the opposite: that system actually adds to this kind of game.

There's another possible explanation: UFO and Jagged Alliance 2 were good in spite of TUs, not because of them.
xxracerxx
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(03-06-2012, 03:53 PM)
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So stoked. Bring it on!
inky
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(03-06-2012, 03:57 PM)
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This is looking great. This is my 2nd most anticipated game of the year behind Guild Wars 2.
Last edited by inky; 03-06-2012 at 04:01 PM.
TheOddOne
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(03-06-2012, 04:01 PM)
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Man, this looks freaking awesome.
archnemesis
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(03-06-2012, 04:02 PM)
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Hype level maintained on one notch below ecstatic!
Madrical
Banned
(03-06-2012, 04:05 PM)
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I rarely read the entire of a GI cover, but XCOM had me hooked when I started reading about it. But this video? Oh gawd, I want it now!! The glam cam, the base setup, it's all awesome! I wish the humans weren't so generic looking though.

Can't wait!
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
(03-06-2012, 04:09 PM)
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The biggest surprise was that the base was 3d. That's pretty cool and I'm ok with that. Though I hope there are still base raids, but I doubt it.

seems you can move your squaddies around while others are firing too, which was weird to see.

Glam cam will get old after the 5th time you see your character snipe someone. It always does.

Hoping for the best.
epmode
Member
(03-06-2012, 04:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lactose_Intolerant

seems you can move your squaddies around while others are firing too, which was weird to see.

That might be the suppression animation?

Originally Posted by Lactose_Intolerant

Glam cam will get old after the 5th time you see your character snipe someone. It always does.

Thankfully, lots of strategy developers give the option of disabling stuff like that.
McNum
Member
(03-06-2012, 04:12 PM)
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I think I get that with the units firing while another is moving. It's the Pin Down move. Have a guy shoot at an alien in cover and he'll pin it down. So when it tries to take its reaction shot, it'll get shot at itself.

So he's reacting to a reaction shot. That would have been useful in the original.
Neuromancer
The Mayuh of f'n Bawston
(03-06-2012, 04:15 PM)
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Even Julian Gollop's latest game (Ghost Recon Shadow Wars) used the move/shoot turn dynamic and it worked out great. I have no problem with losing TU's.
Madrical
Banned
(03-06-2012, 04:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lactose_Intolerant

The biggest surprise was that the base was 3d. That's pretty cool and I'm ok with that. Though I hope there are still base raids, but I doubt it.

seems you can move your squaddies around while others are firing too, which was weird to see.

Glam cam will get old after the 5th time you see your character snipe someone. It always does.

Hoping for the best.



Base raids would be awesome though. Were they in the original? How were they played out? I will be shunned if I suggest a mini-game in the style of Shadow Complex with a squad, that'd be kinda awesome.
TucoBenedictoPacifico
Banned
(03-06-2012, 04:18 PM)
Jesus Christ, people, I can't stand this bullshit about TUs "bogging down" the game.
They wanted to simplify the mechanics for a more casual audience? Fine. I will deal with it.

But can't you at least spare us your ridiculous attempts to justify this like a great thing?
Your arguments don't make any sense, they don't have any base in reality.

I'm sorry but I just can't take seriously the argument "TUs forced the players to mind-bending math". It's just embarrassing.
There are two more plausible scenarios: in the first, their beta testers were totally clueless, they didn't pay any attention to the game and made their choices picking the system that required a lesser attention span; in the second they are lying and this choice has entirely different reasons behind; like, you know... making the game more comfortable to play on a joypad reducing the possibilities of micromanagement.
Last edited by TucoBenedictoPacifico; 03-06-2012 at 04:20 PM.
Aaron
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(03-06-2012, 04:21 PM)
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I played X-Com when it first came out, and always thought time units was bullshit. To have to try before I commit just to see if I had enough juice to do what I wanted to do wasn't strategic. It was tedious and boring. I never finished the sequel because of the system.
TucoBenedictoPacifico
Banned
(03-06-2012, 04:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Aaron

I played X-Com when it first came out, and always thought time units was bullshit.

Well, you're completely wrong. time units were exactly what gave so much tactical depth to the game.
In fact it's not a case that time units or similar mechanics defined *all* the best turn based tactical games around: X-Com, Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm, Fallout 1/2 (in a more simplified form).

I'm not even sure what people are blabbing about when they claim the system was clumsy, slow or whatever, when actually it's the move+action system, with levels and perks as addtional layers, to be counter-intuitive and over-designed if compared to X-COM.
Last edited by TucoBenedictoPacifico; 03-06-2012 at 04:28 PM.
legbone
(03-06-2012, 04:26 PM)
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this is quickly becoming my most anticipated game of the year. damn i loves me some tbs.
Jira
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(03-06-2012, 04:34 PM)
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UFO Defense is still the greatest strategy game of all time.

In regards to the video:

Where's my lotion...?
Kinyou
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(03-06-2012, 04:42 PM)
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This looks really nice, everything seems so polished and smooth.
theRizzle
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(03-06-2012, 04:43 PM)
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If there are no TUs anymore, how is counter/interrupt fire going to work?

If I am not mistaken, you had to save up enough TUs to be able to fire on the enemy turn, correct?
GuitarAtomik
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(03-06-2012, 04:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Billychu

Well considering the FPS was cancelled...

I'm pretty sure it was just delayed not cancelled. Not to say that it won't eventually though.
Emitan
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(03-06-2012, 04:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by GuitarAtomik

I'm pretty sure it was just delayed not cancelled. Not to say that it won't eventually though.

It was about to come out and got delayed for a year. It's dead.
TucoBenedictoPacifico
Banned
(03-06-2012, 04:46 PM)

Originally Posted by theRizzle

If there are no TUs anymore, how is counter/interrupt fire going to work?

If I am not mistaken, you had to save up enough TUs to be able to fire on the enemy turn, correct?

You will need to pick specific perks or... just do without interrupt/reaction fire.
Sinatar
Official GAF Bottom Feeder
(03-06-2012, 04:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by theRizzle

If there are no TUs anymore, how is counter/interrupt fire going to work?

If I am not mistaken, you had to save up enough TUs to be able to fire on the enemy turn, correct?

Overwatch is an action now. So you can move your dude and pass up firing for that turn to put him on overwatch.
RPG_Fanatic
Member
(03-06-2012, 04:49 PM)
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Looks pretty good so far. Can't wait to get my hand on this.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(03-06-2012, 04:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by theRizzle

If there are no TUs anymore, how is counter/interrupt fire going to work?

If I am not mistaken, you had to save up enough TUs to be able to fire on the enemy turn, correct?

I think there is still an ability to do that but you need to "save" this action. Basically there is no TUs but you have a limited number of actions you can use and they are interchangeable. Like run too far but don't shoot or the opposite.They talk in the video about that.

I think it's much better than TUs because it gives me more flexibility but still retains its tactical element.

edit: beaten.
KTallguy
(03-06-2012, 04:56 PM)
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WANT!
TucoBenedictoPacifico
Banned
(03-06-2012, 04:56 PM)

Originally Posted by subversus

I think it's much better than TUs because it gives me more flexibility but still retains its tactical element.

That's *objectively* false. You can claim that you prefer this method, but it doesn't give you more flexibility, quite the opposite.
Minsc
(03-06-2012, 04:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sinatar

Overwatch is an action now. So you can move your dude and pass up firing for that turn to put him on overwatch.

Which can make for some pretty interesting strategy. Since if you only have 4 people, giving up a person's action to overwatch could significantly lower the impact you can push forward with in an assault. I'm warming up to the smaller unit squads, there's definitely a lot of promise in it, so long as I mentioned earlier, there are significant penalties in place for relying on the same 4 (or even 8) people through the whole game.
KTallguy
(03-06-2012, 04:57 PM)
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TUs, whatever, I'm sure the game will be good enough w/o them.
scitek
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(03-06-2012, 04:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ruprit

Does anyone even care about the fps anymore? That's got to be so demoralizing for 2K. Anyhow, looks like a wonderful "contemporary" game. Day 1.

I was just wondering if it still even exists, I haven't seen anything of it since this one's reveal.
fresquito
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(03-06-2012, 04:59 PM)
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Looks awesome. I hope they give an option to disable comments from soldiers and fancy camera angles. I think both elements will get in the way sooner than later.

Originally Posted by Minsc

Which can make for some pretty interesting strategy. Since if you only have 4 people, giving up a person's action to overwatch could significantly lower the impact you can push forward with in an assault. I'm warming up to the smaller unit squads, there's definitely a lot of promise in it, so long as I mentioned earlier, there are significant penalties in place for relying on the same 4 (or even 8) people through the whole game.

If you can do that, this is not X-COM.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(03-06-2012, 05:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by TucoBenedictoPacifico

That's *objectively* false. You can claim that you prefer this method, but it doesn't give you more flexibility, quite the opposite.

ok, how it gives me more flexibility? except the fact that I have to flex my math skills.
Das-J
Law of the West
(03-06-2012, 05:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by DaBuddaDa

This looks polished, creative, inspired, wonderful. Loving it. Day 1. Firaxis <3

This - ALL of this - Props to Firaxis, they've got one of the few games that I'm really excited to play this year.

Bonus points for treating one of my favorite childhood franchises with the respect it deserves!
Mindlog
(03-06-2012, 05:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

I think it's much better than TUs because it gives me more flexibility but still retains its tactical element.

Yeah, it's a neat idea. It gives them the flexibility to add specific action modifier perks. In the first game veteran TU bonuses were applied to every potential action. In theory specific movement modifiers could be applied, but that would invalidate a unified TU pool in the first place. Instead of a set of standard calculations for all of your soldiers you would have to make distinct adjustments for each and every one. Imagine every action having the same variance that firing and throwing did.

This new system is much more flexible.
Last edited by Mindlog; 03-06-2012 at 05:10 PM.
robin2
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(03-06-2012, 05:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

Even Julian Gollop's latest game (Ghost Recon Shadow Wars) used the move/shoot turn dynamic and it worked out great. I have no problem with losing TU's.

It's a different game.
Keasar
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(03-06-2012, 05:09 PM)
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BlablablaTakeMyMoney.jpg

Looks really great and I gotta say the camera looks great in focusing on the action. I have yet to play through a XCOM game, always just dipped my toes in some of them but never stayed around. This one I think I can try and play though.
TucoBenedictoPacifico
Banned
(03-06-2012, 05:20 PM)

Originally Posted by subversus

ok, how it gives me more flexibility? except the fact that I have to flex my math skills.

I think Mindlog just answered your question for me.
And I'm not sure what math skill is involved in looking at a colored bar in the UI visualizing how many TUs are left to use, by the way.
The Antitype
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(03-06-2012, 05:21 PM)
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I'm really looking forward to this.

And the FPS reboot too.

But this looks less like anything else on the market, so I guess my hype for it is a tad higher.
ruttyboy
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(03-06-2012, 05:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

ok, how it gives me more flexibility? except the fact that I have to flex my math skills.

Because in a TU system the flexibility is defined by -

[Time units available] / [Time units used by an action] = (Wildly variable) [Possiblities for action]

In a 'two move' system flexibility is defined by -

[Moves available] / [Moves used per move] = [Number of actions]

When the moves are set then that equates to 2/1 = 2 actions available, as opposed to a massively variable number in the TU system.
SRG01
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(03-06-2012, 05:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sinatar

Overwatch is an action now. So you can move your dude and pass up firing for that turn to put him on overwatch.

This works way better than time units. Give up an action as insurance. Sounds like a good mechanic.

Taking out TU was a good change. Like taking out the fixed isometric view, it's a good thing we're seeing progressive changes.
Yo Gotti
Banned
(03-06-2012, 05:34 PM)
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Didn't they already say that you will be able to have more than 4 people in your squad?
Neuromancer
The Mayuh of f'n Bawston
(03-06-2012, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by robin2

It's a different game.

I'm aware of that. This is also a different game from the original, not everything has to stay exactly the same.

Originally Posted by Yo Gotti

Didn't they already say that you will be able to have more than 4 people in your squad?

Yes but I think the limit is going to be something like 6 or 8 if memory serves.
elcranky
Banned
(03-06-2012, 05:35 PM)

Originally Posted by TucoBenedictoPacifico

Well, you're completely wrong. time units were exactly what gave so much tactical depth to the game.
In fact it's not a case that time units or similar mechanics defined *all* the best turn based tactical games around: X-Com, Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm, Fallout 1/2 (in a more simplified form).

I'm not even sure what people are blabbing about when they claim the system was clumsy, slow or whatever, when actually it's the move+action system, with levels and perks as addtional layers, to be counter-intuitive and over-designed if compared to X-COM.

This statement is just complete nonsense. TU removed tactical depth not added to it. There is no depth to the TU system. It's essence is quite simple and there is always an optimal set of actions that maximizes the utility of a given unit's TU budget. The real issue here is that managing TUs is accounting, and accounting doesn't make for fun game play. Providing the options through a choice driven character development system greatly enhances the strategic aspect of the game while providing fluid tactical desicion making in a far shorter time frame, thus speeding up the fun stuff.
TucoBenedictoPacifico
Banned
(03-06-2012, 05:36 PM)

Originally Posted by SRG01

This works way better than time units. Give up an action as insurance. Sounds like a good mechanic.

Except you could do exactly the same thing using time units in the original, and not even necessarily giving up any action, if you had enough of them.
Seriously guys, what the hell are you trying to argue about?

It sounds like most of you of the "anti-TU movement" don't even know what they are talking about.

Originally Posted by elcranky

This statement is just complete nonsense. TU removed tactical depth not added to it. There is no depth to the TU system. It's essence is quite simple and there is always an optimal set of actions that maximizes the utility of a given unit's TU budget. The real issue here is that managing TUs is accounting, and accounting doesn't make for fun game play. Providing the options through a choice driven character development system greatly enhances the strategic aspect of the game while providing fluid tactical desicion making in a far shorter time frame, thus speeding up the fun stuff.

WHAT? You are the one talking nonsense.
Time Units are simply a pool of action points that you can manage in any way you want, allowing extreme granularity in the micromanagement of you soldiers.

Just stating boldly a fact doesn't make it true, and in fact your statement is just bullshit, without any base in reality.
And TUS being a "quite simple" mechanic in principle is hardly a flaw; if anything is an additional argument against this nonsense of pointing them as an obstacle to the action's flow.
Last edited by TucoBenedictoPacifico; 03-06-2012 at 05:42 PM.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(03-06-2012, 05:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by ruttyboy

Because in a TU system the flexibility is defined by -

[Time units available] / [Time units used by an action] = (Wildly variable) [Possiblities for action]

In a 'two move' system flexibility is defined by -

[Moves available] / [Moves used per move] = [Number of actions]

When the moves are set then that equates to 2/1 = 2 actions available, as opposed to a massively variable number in the TU system.

frankly speaking most times I just forget how much TUs every action takes or I have to play the game constantly to memorize them. Because yes, they show them in the bar but then I make a move and see that I don't have one TU to shoot just because I don't quite remember how much TUs you need per shot or I miscalculated. I still don't remember how much TUs I need spend to dig into inventory in Fallout during combat even though I played hundreds of hours of Fallout 1-2. So instead of thinking how to approach this situation in a more creative way I sit and do some stupid calculations.

Basically I do the same as people in new XCOM will do but with numbers. It's like thinking about how your muscles in your leg work and then making a step instead of just making a step and plan a step ahead. that's my point. The new system gives me more flexibilty in thinking because I don't have to do maths and use my brain resources for simple actions. I just have to plan a strategy.

but if you enjoy doing calculations - fine! I always hated numbers, this just not my type of thinking.
epmode
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(03-06-2012, 05:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

frankly speaking most times I just forget how much TUs every action takes or I have to play the game constantly to memorize them. Because yes, they show them in the bar but then I make a move and see that I don't have one TU to shoot just because I don't quite remember how much TUs you need per shot or I miscalculated. I still don't remember how much TUs I need spend to dig into inventory in Fallout during combat even though I played hundreds of hours of Fallout 1-2. So instead of thinking how to approach this situation in a more creative way I sit and do some stupid calculations.

Don't forget that many actions have different TU values based on the soldier's max TU count!

Can we leave this at "Both systems have their benefits"?
Yo Gotti
Banned
(03-06-2012, 05:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

I'm aware of that. This is also a different game from the original, not everything has to stay exactly the same.


Yes but I think the limit is going to be something like 6 or 8 if memory serves.

Good, didn't think I imagined that.

I'd be happy with 6. 8 would be perfect.

Quick Question:

Who else is planning to play this game on Iron Man from the get go?
Victrix
*beard*
(03-06-2012, 05:51 PM)
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Oh man the base looks so awesome

(I laughed at the 360 buttons on the UI, can't wait for old PC fanboys to rage out)

Really stoked for this, hope the world destruction is firmly intact (which it appears to be, from the little they showed at the gas station).

It's going to be fantastic to play a game like this again. The JA remake was a dud, don't fail us Firaxis.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(03-06-2012, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by epmode

Can we leave this at "Both systems have their benefits"?

yeah, we can leave it at that because some people enjoy math.
Mindlog
(03-06-2012, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by epmode

Don't forget that many actions have different TU values based on the soldier's max TU count!

Can we leave this at "Both systems have their benefits"?

I believe this analogy is perfect. They're both means to the same end.
epmode
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(03-06-2012, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Victrix

(I laughed at the 360 buttons on the UI, can't wait for old PC fanboys to rage out)\

There's been almost none of that in these XCOM threads, thankfully.

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