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People of colour in Kingdom Come: Deliverance - A discussion (Read the OP)

M

Messofanego

Banned
Some people were talking about "social justice warrior" on my Twitter feed, and this seems somewhat related.

There's a tumblr called MedievalPOC. It's an academic blog that wants to “address common misconceptions that People of Color did not exist in Europe before the Enlightenment, and to emphasize the cognitive dissonance in the way this is reflected in media produced today".

Daily Dot: Is a medieval video game historically accurate without people of color? (Read the whole thing for the chronology of events)

It’s become a popular resource during debates over the relative “realism” of everything from Disney’s Frozen to HBO’s Game of Thrones, and often receives messages from people asking for advice when researching racial diversity throughout history.

Last week, MedievalPOC reader tengokujin submitted a question about a video game called Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which is currently being marketed on Kickstarter as a “realistic single-player RPG set in medieval Europe” with “period accurate melee combat.” tengokujin asked MedievalPOC for information regarding any non-white ethnicities that might plausibly be included in the game, saying:

“I asked the devs if they plan on adding any NPCs of other-than-white-descent and received a polite reply of "[In Central Bohemia, there] were, unfortunately, almost none." A casual search turns up the Mongols, so I figured there's gotta be more. Do you have any sources or books that would indicate significant presence of other ethnicities?”

Basically, it was an academic question. Now seems like a good time to point out that there was no suggestion that the creators of Kingdom Come should be pressured into altering the content of their game.

MedievalPOC’s reply seemed somewhat unimpressed with the game’s lack of diversity, pointing out the lack of roles for female characters. “I can tell that representation really isn’t a priority there,” they wrote. “For example, their £600,000 goal of adding miniquests in which a female player character is even possible came after “Live Medieval In-Game Music” and “Symphonic Orchestra Soundtrack”, and remains unfulfilled as of yet. However, being able to “seduce local women” is already a part of the base game.”
Click to expand...

MedievalPOC went on to give a handful of examples of ethnically diverse art from Medieval Europe, along with some reading recommendations to learn more about the ethnic makeup of Bohemia in the Middle Ages. The most critical detail was a snarky line about game’s policy on historical accuracy, saying, “apparently, women and people of color just aren’t realistic enough I suppose.”
Click to expand...

Some of Reddit being the classy type...
Not very controversial stuff, particularly since it was all restricted to a single askbox reply post on a semi-popular history Tumblr.

That is, until the post was shared on Reddit’s Death_to_SJWs subreddit, under the headline, “Idiot SJW bothers RPG company because their game set in Medieval Central Europe doesn't have any POC.”

SJW stands for “Social Justice Warrior,” a mocking term for people (usually on Tumblr) who blog about social justice issues such as racism, homophobia, sexism, and transphobia. The supposedly SJW-esque nature of MedievalPOC’s comments seemed to enrage many of the members of the subreddit, who disputed whether MedievalPOC’s claims were remotely reliable, or even relevant. Sample comment:

“It's like the whiny cunts that bitch that LOTR was all white people or that Frozen was all white.

And since when was including this bullshit, along with proper amounts of female characters an actual concern for videogames? This sort of shit has only popped up recently in the past decade and it pisses me the fuck off to no end.”

The next day, MedievalPOC work up to an inbox full of hate mail, including this gem:

suicidethreat.png

Screengrab via medievalpoc

Other messages said things like, “I don't know where all that unfound hate comes from but I hope you'll learn to be a little less hypocritical and hateful in your life,” or told MedievalPOC that they should apologise to the creators of Kingdom Come for “lying and misinterpreting.”

MedievalPOC’s response was to delete the remainder of the messages, writing, “No, I do not plan to issue any apologies for writing about history, art history, or a game and its creator’s choices in regard to representation of women and/or people of color (lack thereof).”
Click to expand...

Kingdom Come: Deliverance can still go for historical accuracy:
But the relative accuracy of Kingdom Come may not even be relevant here. Yes, MedievalPOC’s blog is a goldmine of historical evidence that Medieval Europe wasn’t nearly as white as most people assume. But it’s still plausible for Kingdom Come not to feature any characters of color, particularly since, as one of its developers pointed out to a potential Kickstarter backer, the game takes place over a mere 9 square kilometers of land. Effectively, “historical accuracy” can be used to support both sides of the argument.
Click to expand...

Medieval POC's reply:
That’s totally true.

Which is why I’m trying to emphasize the fact that these were conscious choices made by the game developers, not some kind of force beyond their control. Nothing was stopping them from including people of color aside from their own choices.

The problem comes into focus when the developers make these kind of claims:

Warhorse called its system, “the ultimate character customization tool ever invented,” and added that your gear will get bloody and dirty as you slog your way through battles, and that many parameters of an avatar’s body can be altered.​

That’s a pretty hefty claim to make along with the total exclusion of women and people of color.
Click to expand...

So yeah, some people get really trigger-happy about people bringing up any kind of social issue in games and send death threats.

MadCavernousKillifish.gif
 
E

EdibleKnife

Member
I haven't been paying attention to this game but it is messed that they seem to have had bedable women before playable if Medieval POC is correct. Unsurprised, that the place housing r/mensrights breed an anti-"social justice" coalition.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
I can buy the argument that a small cross-section of medieval Central Bohemia doesn't have the same representation of racial and gender role diversity modern people expect in their media.

That said, this sort of hateful bullying against the people speaking their minds makes me want to side against these assholes, just on principle.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
The argumentation for relies upon probably percentages that when one looks at 9sqKM of land... it is not totally hard to imagine there would be a lack of people of color.

This seems like the wrong dev and wrong game content to go ham on considering its racial profile. Yes, of course there were people of color in mainland Europe in the middle ages... but, does bringing that rare event into a game about the relative "commonness of the times," help at all?

Is it THAT important for THIS game? A period piece?
 
T

TwEE-N-Toast

Banned
That's why I could never play Romance of the three kingdoms. Your telling me there is not one Inuit or bubbly blonde samurai?
 
J

jcm

Member
It's a shame the author had to be subjected to that kind of abuse. I don't have much to say about crazy Reddit people, but that MedievalPOC blog is really fascinating. I'm glad to have seen the link. It's a subject I know nothing about.
 
D

da-davenportm

Banned
Uh the game is 2 years away, we haven't seen all the NPC's, it's not even in alpha yet.
Way to jump the fucking gun here and pounce on something 2 years before it is released.
The vid doc on character creation showed you can pretty much make any type of player, pretty sure skin tones will be a piece of cake

Just because they have not shown different ethnicity in the game doesn't mean their won't be any.
 
M

meltingparappa

Member
I think if you use the stupid "realistic" buzzword then you open yourself up to the scrutiny of well... historical reality.

There's a bevy of understandable reasons why it would be unfeasible to accomplish the amount of work it'd take to include the unique art and assets to include an identifiable 'mongol' over a character with palate swapped skin. It wouldn't be that hard to explain if they really didn't feel like admitting they didn't do the research or that the "realistic" tag means nothing.


On a side note, I feel like including the "being able to “seduce local women” muddies the main argument about including POC. Yes, blatant sexism and all, but it's entirely unrelated and only serves as a lightning rod for the classy charm school graduates from reddit.
 
T

trw

Member
Dictator93 said:
The argumentation for relies upon probably percentages that when one looks at 9sqKM of land... it is not totally hard to imagine there would be a lack of people of color.

This seems like the wrong dev and wrong game content to go ham on considering its racial profile. Yes, of course there were people of color in mainland Europe in the middle ages... but, does bringing that rare event into a game about the relative "commonness of the times," help at all?

Is it THAT important for THIS game? A period piece?
Click to expand...

Well, the point was that their comment about historical accuracy was wrong and that they can include some more diverse npc's without it being strange. MedievalPOC didn't say that this game had to have it just that the excuse didn't hold up. It's sad that just this apparently warrants death threats from threatened kids on reddit.
 
R

RooMHM

Member
Which is why I’m trying to emphasize the fact that these were conscious choices made by the game developers, not some kind of force beyond their control. Nothing was stopping them from including people of color aside from their own choices.
Click to expand...
This "ignorance can t save you" type of speech and tone is truly a way to stigmatize others' choices and opinions.
It s actually the worst type of stance in any debate and also nowadays the most frequent, unfortunately.
 
V

Vulcano's assistant

Banned
meltingparappa said:
I think if you use the stupid "realistic" buzzword then you open yourself up to the scrutiny of well... historical reality.

There's a bevy of understandable reasons why it would be unfeasible to accomplish the amount of work it'd take to include the unique art and assets to include an identifiable 'mongol' over a character with palate swapped skin. It wouldn't be that hard to explain if they really didn't feel like admitting they didn't do the research or that the "realistic" tag means nothing.


On a side note, I feel like including the "being able to “seduce local women” muddies the main argument about including POC. Yes, blatant sexism and all, but it's entirely unrelated and only serves as a lightning rod for the classy charm school graduates from reddit.
Click to expand...

Well in rpgs using realistic is just a mean to ensure that people don't expect fantasy. It is a buzzword alright, but it has a well defined use in gaming, and realistic in rpgs doesn't have the same meaning as realistic in FPS or realistic on RTS.
 
I

ichtyander

Member
It's like criticizing War of the Roses (game) for not having people of color. Coincidentally I'm watching The Pillars of the Earth tv series these days which is set in 12th century England during the Anarchy. Not a single person of other ethnicity. And there are apparently records that there were black people as early as the 12th, at least from a casual search.

I can understand the argument and I condemn threats and bullying but this criticism is so misdirected in case of Kingdom Come that it pisses me off.
 
U

ultron87

Member
da-davenportm said:
I'll shorten up my reply

The game is 2 years away, be critical then.
Click to expand...

So isn't this the perfect time to bring it up so they can make potentially make changes now if they so desire?

It isn't like this is some big crusade against the game. All that happened was that the person running that Tumblr got a question and answered it with some research. That was pretty much it.
 
Z

ZoddGutts

Member
Meh. If people want to "fix" this issue, the game will support mods, so I guess you'll be able to change npc's color skin.
 
D

Derrick01

Banned
I really think this ranks towards the very bottom of things that need to be worried about with this game. They're promising something we don't see in the RPG genre anymore, an actual RPG. There's so many things that can go wrong.
 
F

FairXchange

Member
This is looking like an amazing game, and is one I will buy day one based on the awesome depth of combat, exploration and graphics than have been displayed. Not sure what the hell else there is to say.
 
G

GreatMightySymp

Member
Most of Tumblr (especially the social justice stuff) is nuts, but that Tumblr blog actually has some decent research.

Not shocked TiA had someone hate posting, I'd wager a segment of them are probably /MR subscribers.
 
D

da-davenportm

Banned
ultron87 said:
So isn't this the perfect time to bring it up so they can make potentially make changes now if they so desire?

It isn't like this is some big crusade against the game. All that happened was that the person running that Tumblr got a question and answered it with some research. That was pretty much it.
Click to expand...

So why did this blow up into a controversy? And how do we know they never intend to include different ethnicitys since the game is WAY far off from being released?

Sounds like just a jump the gun knee jerk reaction to only a few game vids that have been shown so far.
 
F

Fine Ham Abounds

Member
MedievalPOC's verbiage is very snarky, but it's a reasonable and interesting argument, and choices can be based firmly in historical evidence.

I think the female discussion may be more difficult, as - and this is just a generalized assumption - I don't think women were given much consideration beyond manual labor and baby factories in the middle ages.

I think the playable female character angle they went with is about the best possible.
 
U

ultron87

Member
da-davenportm said:
So why did this blow up into a controversy? And how do we know they never intend to include different ethnicitys since the game is WAY far off from being released?

Sounds like just a jump the gun knee jerk reaction to only a few game vids that have been shown so far.
Click to expand...

It sounds like it blew up because some assholes on Reddit saw this reply and decided that it was some horrible injustice that was occurring. Because in their minds a single, somewhat snarky, post on a Tumblr is a scathing call for censorship and the destruction of artistic vision from the meddling evil social justice warriors that are trying to ruin all media by having it be more representative.

Edit: Oh, and they know that because the Dev's, when being asked about the inclusion of other ethnicities, said they weren't doing it for historical accuracy reasons. Which MedievalPOC's research refuted.
 
M

Miletius

Member
I think that MPOC is fine here. It's just a shame that fans of the game insert themselves into a situation in the worst possible way. MPOC made a point about how the game could include POC and then fans jump down their throat. Those fans should really step back and THINK for a second. This sort of slovenly behavior by a virulent minority of their fanbase is probably the last thing that the devs want interfering with their successful campaign.

Hopefully it won't escalate to the level that they will have to address it.
 
K

KOCMOHABT

Member
first of all, where does it say "seduce women" in the kickstarter. Or any site.

second of all, I've skimmed through some of the sources he gave and there is no real evidence that medieval bohemia was populated widely by non-whites. The area depicted is clearly not prague or any big transit city. Concerning mongols I think chances are much bigger that they did not settle in any particular rural area than that they did.

To me it seems like the critic did not show real interest in the game.

And as this seems to be a "historical" game, I really cannot see any interested person play this and go like "yeah but why is everyone white?".

EDIT: Ok, so after reading more of him I am a bit more understanding. Still I think it is totally valid for Warhorse to choose not to have colored people.

They just don’t GET it, do they? It’s not about the actual probability, it’s about their CHOICE. Yes, statistically speaking it’s probable that on a given space wouldn’t be any POC at that time (Bohemia then, and Czech republic now, is very, very white). BUT, they could have. And if they could, they SHOULD be in the game, to portray the actual history! That how historical fiction works!!! *angrish*
Click to expand...
 
K

Kurdel

Banned
So is SJW the new "white knight"?

I hate these people so much.

The liberal, non PC, super tolerant internet Ubermensch that pounce at every corner to discredit arguments and destroy defense forces all while reassuring you they have a black friend or their girlfriend is a woman so he cant be sexist.
 
E

Enkidu

Member
If I follow this correctly it seems like it should have been nothing but a semantic argument over what constitutes "almost none", especially in the context of a small area away from any major cities but because the Tumbler reply was written in a rather snarky way and potentially suggested that the game should be changed it was picked up on Reddit and everything turned to shit.
 
N

n00bsauce87

Member
I guess I need a more layman's explanation. Is OP saying that reddit users and others who are creating a faux shitstorm over MedievalPOC asking a question about women and POC in an RPG that boosts historical realism was out of line?
 
M

Miletius

Member
n00bsauce87 said:
I guess I need a more layman's explanation. Is OP saying that reddit users and others who are creating a faux shitstorm over MedievalPOC asking a question about women and POC in an RPG that boosts historical realism was out of line?
Click to expand...

Basic Jist:

1) Somebody asked MPOC about Kingdom Come: Deliverence not having POC.
2) MPOC responds, saying that their could be POC in the game, but kind of snarkily, also mentions representation of women in the KS casually.
3) It gets posted in Reddit, and sub-Reddit users over react, sending nasty messages to MPOC because they dare attack the game.

So yes, you are correct. Some Reddit users are creating a faux shitstorm over a bloggers' reply in the comments section of his blog.
 
M

meltingparappa

Member
Kurdel said:
So is SJW the new "white knight"?

I hate these people so much.

The liberal, non PC, super tolerant internet Ubermensch that pounce at every corner to discredit arguments and destroy defense forces all while reassuring you they have a black friend or their girlfriend is a woman so he cant be sexist.
Click to expand...
Is it really so unreasonable to ask about an interesting potential facet of the game that reflects the time period it's set in? And then to point out a historical inaccuracy in the response to that question?

Granted the guy's tone would probably have better received if it was less tumblr-esque...
 
K

KOCMOHABT

Member
Either way I don't think Warhorse is to blame - from their comment section on KS

Ahmad Khan
@Pedasn: i am a person of color and here's my take, if its logical and historically sensiable then do it, north-african traders,berber mercenaries,turkish schlors, jewish refugees escapping presecution, Slavic orthodox priests,the Roma people, are all logical and historically verified minorites. The rest of the world not as much.

Warhorse Studios
@Ahmad: Very well said. This is exactly how we see it.
 
S

SkeptiMism

Member
ichtyander said:
It's like criticizing War of the Roses (game) for not having people of color. Coincidentally I'm watching The Pillars of the Earth tv series these days which is set in 12th century England during the Anarchy. Not a single person of other ethnicity. And there are apparently records that there were black people as early as the 12th, at least from a casual search.

I can understand the argument and I condemn threats and bullying but this criticism is so misdirected in case of Kingdom Come that it pisses me off.
Click to expand...
It's really not that big criticism. The person got a question and answered it. Then it goes on Reddit and blows up.

It's not a big deal but there's no reason they couldn't include at least a black character. There could also be even one strong female character (not a main character), though of course we don't know if there is some NPCs who are like that. All the better if even one strong female character had at least somewhat major part in the plot, but it's understandable if there isn't. If not, then there could well be some strong minor female characters.

While it's not that big an issue, I do think it is somewhat important to note these though. When people think of a human in general, or a protagonist to their book or game, they usually think of a man first. In western culture that is also usually a white man (and a straight one). Woman and other colors come as an afterthought and quite often only if there's a some specific reason to have them on important roles.

The more other kind of protagonists and other kind of characters are portrayed in entertainment and art, the more it can expand our limited thinking in long term and in a bit shorter term it can help people be more tolerant as they accept that they're really a part of people's lives.
 
I

ichtyander

Member
meltingparappa said:
Is it really so unreasonable to ask about an interesting potential facet of the game that reflects the time period it's set in? And then to point out a historical inaccuracy in the response to that question?

Granted the guy's tone would probably have better received if it was less tumblr-esque...
Click to expand...

It's really not. As Warhorse and people here have mentioned already, people of other ethnicities in early 15th century Bohemia were rare enough that showing them in the 9 km area of the game would pretty much look extremely unrealistic and statistically almost impossible.

As for the potential female playable character, the game is really planned with the male blacksmith protagonist in mind which again makes much more historical sense and it's not planned as a TES game for example. It's like asking to have a female protagonist in The Witcher.

EDIT: Saw this post just as I replied.

SkeptiMism said:
It's really not that big criticism. The person got a question and answered it. Then it goes on Reddit and blows up.

It's not a big deal but there's no reason they couldn't include at least a black character. There could also be even one strong female character (not a main character), though of course we don't know if there is some NPCs who are like that. All the better if even one strong female character had at least somewhat major part in the plot, but it's understandable if there isn't. If not, then there could well be some strong minor female characters.

While it's not that big an issue, I do think it is somewhat important to note these though. When people think of a human in general, or a protagonist to their book or game, they usually think of a man first. In western culture that is also usually a white man (and a straight one). Woman and other colors come as an afterthought and quite often only if there's a some specific reason to have them on important roles.

The more other kind of protagonists and other kind of characters are portrayed in entertainment and art, the more it can expand our limited thinking in long term and in a bit shorter term it can help people be more tolerant as they accept that they're really a part of people's lives.
Click to expand...


I would agree with you if it were a game set in a broader area of Europe, or in a different time period or a more fantasy oriented story. I completely agree about the assumptions of western culture and am very much tired of it but it has really a lot less to do with Kingdom Come since it's a more unique title as there aren't that many games outside of grand strategies that even deal with these time periods and themes. I also agree with you about the representation of women and it would really be good if there were strong female characters in the game. Putting a female protagonist however, as in becoming a knight and progressing through early 15th century Bohemia would feel very unrealistic.

As for the whole thing blowing up, I may not be fully aware of the circumstances but just reading the medievalpoc tumbler page I get a strong derogatory feeling towards Warhorse ending with the quote by medievalpoc:

it literally says “we left ethnicities just because there were none in Bohemia at that time”

*facepalms to the center of the earth*
Click to expand...

In all, I am aware of the problem but Kingdom Come is probably the least problematic in this regard.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
SkeptiMism said:
It's really not that big criticism. The person got a question and answered it. Then it goes on Reddit and blows up.

It's not a big deal but there's no reason they couldn't include at least a black character. There could also be even one strong female character (not a main character), though of course we don't know if there is some NPCs who are like that. All the better if even one strong female character had at least somewhat major part in the plot, but it's understandable if there isn't. If not, then there could well be some strong minor female characters.

While it's not that big an issue, I do think it is somewhat important to note these though. When people think of a human in general, or a protagonist to their book or game, they usually think of a man first. In western culture that is also usually a white man (and a straight one). Woman and other colors come as an afterthought and quite often only if there's a some specific reason to have them on important roles.

The more other kind of protagonists and other kind of characters are portrayed in entertainment and art, the more it can expand our limited thinking in long term and in a bit shorter term it can help people be more tolerant as they accept that they're really a part of people's lives.
Click to expand...

Why do they need to? If the game is going for historical accuracy, then let it be done. No need to shoehorn a race or type of character awkwardly just to fit our modern times.

It's as if every game needs to do this. It doesn't.

Edit: I'd really like to dive into that last part, because it's part of what makes our media so fucked up. People ask for a type of character, and they get it sometimes, but it's not always in the proper ways.

As already stated, the "realism" of the game would be ruined if a female was rushed and thrown into the fray. The artist/developer's intention is to be realistic, and so, doing things that aren't realistic would be pretty damning. The quality of the product is cheeped, and do people really want something that feels out of place in regards to new types of characters?

When the need arises, then let it be so. Like, Dynasty Warriors, which is based on a book that is mostly away from reality, let Diao Chan enter the fray even though she wasn't really a fighter in the book. Or how they've given Guan Yu a fighting daughter. The source material is flimsy at best and Dynasty Warriors isn't going for a full on historical angle anyway.
 
J

jim-jam bongs

Member
SkeptiMism said:
It's really not that big criticism. The person got a question and answered it. Then it goes on Reddit and blows up.
Click to expand...

It's almost like these anti-SJW people have some kind of agenda, and are just being disingenuous so that they can turn as many things into evidence supporting their preconceptions.
 
A

Azih

Member
Medieval POC were asked a question, and they answered it according to their documented research and evidence. That's really as far as it should go.

Why the heck do people go out of their way to try to silence people with a point of view that they are apparently uncomfortable with.
 
R

rottame

Member
I don't get this argument:

Which is why I’m trying to emphasize the fact that these were conscious choices made by the game developers, not some kind of force beyond their control. Nothing was stopping them from including people of color aside from their own choices.
Click to expand...

It's like saying that if I set my game in Rome in 1940 nothing stops me from including Australians, cause probably there were a dozen Australian in Rome at that time. I really don't get it.

Also,

Warhorse called its system, “the ultimate character customization tool ever invented,” and added that your gear will get bloody and dirty as you slog your way through battles, and that many parameters of an avatar’s body can be altered.

That’s a pretty hefty claim to make along with the total exclusion of women and people of color.
Click to expand...

That's so pedantic. So they should have said "the ultimate character customization tool ever invented (in the context of the setting, considering the average gender roles of the time and ethnic profile of the population in that geographical location)"?
 
K

KidGalactus

Member
Kind of weird to see people get do up in arms about a blog post that doesn't really affect anything.

I mean, it's not odd that people want to be represented in their entertainment. Our more accurately, don't want to feel excluded from it.

Where does all the "how dare they" sort of sentiment come from?
 
A

Azih

Member
I will also say that the snark from Medieval POC is completely unnecessary and detracts from their message. No reason to make this an 'us' vs 'them' of any sort. It does unfortunately remind me of those hilarious extremist feminists angry at George R.R Martin for his portrayal of women in ASOIAF
 
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