quickwhips
Member
Instead of being a cable set top box MS should have made iptv a Microsoft service like Sony is going to do now. I think Kinect is a great way to navigate and getting rid of it now seems silly.
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Polygon: MS needs to admit the XB1 Kinect is a peripheral, not a pack-in. [Opinion]
- Thread starter SwiftDeath
- Start date
Let's be honest here. The kinect pushes the price up, but I think the thing driving sales the most is the power difference. If the Xbox was $499.99 with Kinect but was (very slightly) more powerful than PS4 then this would be a different discussion. The PS4 is being sold for $399.99. It is not ridiculous to assume that a $499.99 system that is slightly better (think .1 Tflop or even a bigger HDD) + kinect is feasable and would have done much better in this market. Especially when you consider the launch lineup of games.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Hell Nintendo would never buy them anyway. Nintendo is too damn stubborn to spend the kind of money they'd have to to do it. So it's not going to happen.
I guess the real take away is that this sort of talk it no longer just among "gaming" blogs and such. The rhetoric is spreading, and now shareholders will start to become antsy, and the new CEO will want to make a defining statement sort of like Kaz is doing for Sony
SwiftDeath
Member
I can use the "most powerful console has never won a generation" flawed argument in defense of the PS4?
lol anyways the XB1 would certainly be in a better position if it was more powerful than the PS4 and while I do think the power argument is permeating to the general masses better than any previous console generation, I don't think MS's biggest problem is the power disparity. It really is that $499 price tag
Its not the "more powerful doesn't win the generation." I think that is a red-herring argument.
The console that is cheaper, easier to code for, and has the best games win.
The best games follows the cheapest development (developers more willing to take risks)...if that cheap development is coupled with the most powerful...well...There is little doubt what gamers will gravitate towards.
The console that is cheaper, easier to code for, and has the best games win.
The best games follows the cheapest development (developers more willing to take risks)...if that cheap development is coupled with the most powerful...well...There is little doubt what gamers will gravitate towards.
Xenon
Member
It's fucking insane...
Projectjustice
Banned
It really doesnt matter at this point. Its not like a kinectless Xbone is going to match what the PS4 is doing resolution and FPS wise.
I think they were under the impression that TV was their killer app for Kinect.
Lucent
Member
Seeing as how I can give voice commands to my PS4 without a camera, it just gives less justification for the Kinect IMO. I have literally done nothing with my Kinect besides say "Xbox, record that" and things like that. These are voice commands. If I could do that without the camera that'd be great and I'd sell it. The only reason I would keep it is if Project Spark really pulls through with the motion capture stuff you can do with the Kinect.
Let's be honest here. You don't actually believe anything you are saying.
I'm not even really sure Kinect is the entire issue. The PS4 Cameras have been almost as sold out as the PS4 consoles themselves.
The only way for MS to pull this out is to provide value for the console. Matching price isn't going to cut it. There needs to be something to definitely offset the lesser performance of multiplats. They either need bucketloads of exclusive content (something thats going to get harder and more expensive to get as the PS4 lead increases), or something else.
The performance gap is a very big issue for MS it seems. Kinect, not so much.
The only way for MS to pull this out is to provide value for the console. Matching price isn't going to cut it. There needs to be something to definitely offset the lesser performance of multiplats. They either need bucketloads of exclusive content (something thats going to get harder and more expensive to get as the PS4 lead increases), or something else.
The performance gap is a very big issue for MS it seems. Kinect, not so much.
SwiftDeath
Member
PS2 was a complex architecture to work with. I am sure that the Xbox at least was miles easier to program for.
The cheaper console with reasonable 3rd party support usually wins a generation. Games certainly help but a larger install base will mean you are unlikely to be missing large 3rd party games and may in fact naturally get 3rd party exclusives from lack of ROI for 3rd party devs to port games to other systems not in the lead.
It's an aside, but when I see people making that argument and using PS1 and PS2 as backup, I have to wonder if they were around at the time. It's true that within their generations they were not the most powerful machines, but they were the most powerful machines available at their releases, and power was a huge component in their marketing/hype narratives at the time. That more powerful machines came later - too late to stall their momentum - was beside the point. Power, and relative power vs existing machines was a big factor in their stories.
LanielLayDewis
Banned
I used the Steam example because it was used against me in another terrible way to prove new methods of input.
The thing I don't get is why people complain to much about this when they know MS is going to address it if it is so much of a problem and I assume a problem that arose from people denying themselves even the opportunity to try since I read about a lot of people no even wanting to connect it from day 1 because of stupid conspiracy theories, as if MS cared what porn you were watching.
It's was not there day 1 because day 1 they wanted people to use kinect, which worked and still works perfectly to go around the UI. Even if they add a more accessible work around for the controller I doubt it will be better or more intuitive than a voice controlled designed UI.
Also what exactly are people that complain so much trying to look for? I have used the controller to move around and find things in the OS and I get to them no problem. Ignoring the PS4's share button( for pics and video) everything else in the OS I find more accessible in the X1 and I know where to look for them. In the PS4 as with the PS3 I have more trouble; sure Setting are right there but I never seem to know exactly where to look.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Instead of being snarky, why not tell us what was wrong with his post? Because I thought it was 100% true. I'd have bought an X1 over PS4 if X1 was more powerful and I bet a lot of other people would have too considering it has a far better games library at the moment. Even $100 more than PS4, if X1 was more powerful and it had better versions of every third-party game, there's no doubt in my mind X1 would be doing much, much better than it is now. The reality is Microsoft fucked up. All they had to do was run the clock out but instead threw a brutal Favre-esque TAINT to lose the game.
They have no one to blame but themselves. This gen lasted 8 years (and 7 for Sony) and the entire X1 platform feels like it was hastily put together 18-24 months before launch, while Sony's PS4 feels like it's been in the oven for 3 or 4 years. In fact I remember during their reveals MS said they "started thinking about the successor around 2011"... I think it was 2011. And Sony said like 2009. I can't remember, another terrible post.
LanielLayDewis
Banned
There was and is a good Smartglass app for the X1 from which I started and added some experience to DR3.
What exactly would you want or do you want from a Kinect app that warrants it to be so necessary on top of Smartglass? YOu can't or rather you should not take the functionality away from Kinect to add to a phone, unless you mean an X1 app. d'oh
He means they didn't release anything like Dance Central that would get a ton of people to buy an Xbox One to play it. Killer app is another term for system seller.
njean777
Member
It helps that Twitch worked day one on ps4, that is a big reason the ps4 camera is selling.
dragonelite
Member
I kinda agreed with this opinion.
It should have never been packed in to compete.
And going against the ps4 at $399 doesn't sounds so smart maybe with an 1tb hdd it would make some sense.
It should have never been packed in to compete.
And going against the ps4 at $399 doesn't sounds so smart maybe with an 1tb hdd it would make some sense.
spookyfish
Member
The Third Console Curse is real. Or, third console hubris, I guess.
Oh, it'll be the "message wasn't clear enough for the dumb masses" or some similar bullshit.
We're talking about the millions of people who buy consoles not you and me. No matter how rushed and shitty the incomplete XBOX launch firmware, nothing hurts them as much as the $100 price difference at launch. Especially at a time where the PS4 is very much supply constrained and there's an abundance of XBOX ONE in stock.
LanielLayDewis
Banned
You know what I could go on IMO about why it is valid but it is pointless.
The X1 was CLEARLY designed to work with the Kinect. Kinect was mainly, at least right now, marketed as a control tool for the X1 OS. Forget Kinect1.0, forget the gimmick games. This is my point. All those complaints are no oversight from MS, they are just people resisting the change of ideas that MS tried to do. They intended these features to be absent for them to be replaced with their Kinect counterparts. And they work 99% of the time, no problem.
I've had no trouble at all with the X1 recognizing me and I don't need or even remembered the auto connect because it was never a problem. I've had no trouble having the X1 understanding my commands AT ALL
Why are there no compelling experiences? IMO Because most big developers suck and don't want to go out of their comfort zone to produce that meaningful experience. They just care about yearly franchises and money shots. They have no imagination anymore it seems. Kinect 1.0 might have been a failure and gimmick gaming wise, but Kinect is succesful and a proven piece of hardware. Have you seen the wonderful, practical applications for science and other projects that it has been used for? I doubt those could be made and no compelling applications for gaming are possible. They just lack imagination because they want to do the same thing as always just with Kinect and that won't work here.
I mean the Wii was succesful, but it sucked after a while, but why? Lack of innovation after the initial bump. I mean for example the Nintendo DS has been one of the most succesful gaming machines EVER. It had great and amazing compelling experiences, so why didn't the Wii? It was basically a 3D mapped DS, the WiiU even more so, were are the experiences that were so great there? Time and Money vs Creativity?
That is why, on an unrelated note, I feel most innovation has gone to the indie game scene. I bet that if we ever get an amazing compelling Kinect gaming experience it can and will come from there, not from AAA titles. From them I want some small voice commands and passive features, everything else would most likely end up as a gimmick. That is why we don't have these compelling experiences you want, because Kinect 1.0 was a gimmick, people don't want change or to believe in anything and lack of imagination.
Hear me now if we ever get a compelling experience for Kinect it will come from an indie game.
So we can just go on disagreeing but it's just opinion. They PS4 might sell more as it always does, but X1 is still and will remain a success. The Kinect is a and should continue to be a vital part of the X1, to flip-flop now would do a lot more harm than good since the hardware is set in stone. And you know what I continue to enjoy both.
The only part about my opinion vs others I don't get is why do they say it sucks so bad. I mean I am having 99% success rate with command with this crappy peripheral. Never have I experienced this sort of voice command glory, NEVER and it feels great. It could be you don't like talking to your stuff like that, makes you feel silly, that's ok, valid. It may be that you didn't even want voice commands ( why get an X1 then?) or that you are sour from the first kinect experience, valid, but to say it sucks because it is a gimmick and it does not work is more opinion than fact since it works, it really works!!!; or maybe bad luck, bad hardware?
LanielLayDewis
Banned
Oh ok I get that. IMO I blame lack of creativity/innovation.
FOr me Kinect 2.0 right now is a wonderful and innovative way to control the OS. It works 99% of the time for me and my friend which has it. It rocks and it blows me away just coming into my apt and just saying XBOX ON and tada!
Give it or let the indie developers give it a try and I bet that killer app, that compelling game will come out, but I don't expect anymore from money centered AAA developer who care about graphics and money only.
SwiftDeath
Member
You justify a product to the people buying the product. Not to future people who may or may not buy a product.
The Wii justified it's existence and reliance on motion controls by Wii Sports that launched with the console as a pack-in. Where is this same experience on the XB1 that makes every XB1 owner automatically understand why kinect [motion controls] is necessary?
I can, especially after the last mech game that used Kinect came out. That was the Bad Day.
We don't speak of the Bad Day....
7DollarHagane
Banned
its a stone tied around the xb1's neck. Nobody wants it, nobody needs it, it just needs to go away.
You know, I just thought of something. The 'water cooler', in corporate speak, is nothing more than shorthand for an object or an event that people will want to talk and spread the word about. Shortening it to 'water cooler' makes it easier for the higher-ups in the offices to get the meaning. You aren't actually supposed to use the term 'water cooler' when talking to a more mainstream audience.
But since the Xbone was only designed and conceived by corporate folks who can't see beyond office jargon and don't know what to say to the people who may actually want to buy the product, the 'water cooler' was seen as a legitimately good idea to use, and for them it stuck.
Then they went public with it, and the rest is history.
That is my conspiracy theory for the week.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Did they not sell over 3 million units so far? If we compare it to how well the PS4 is selling then yes, it's not looking so good. If we compare it to how well the first Xbox sold and then how well the XBox 360 sold to now is it that bad?
So you just want your voice to be heard but aren't going to be a customer either way? ok.
I can't speak from experience since I don't own one but Microsoft has been pretty adamant Kinect is the XBox One.
Did they listen a few years ago when Kinect did amazing for about a year on the XBox 360 then sales dropped sharply? I have a feeling MS will continue to press forward with Kinect and try and offer more incentive like price reductions and game bundles. The last resort will be removing Kinect but they are stubborn, juts like Nintendo on the Wii U and the Gamepad which also increases the price.
January sales were bad yes, but are they bad enough to ignore the previous months of sales?
I'm not sure how easy it would be to remove Kinect. It sounds like it has become part of its operating system. I am all about options but sometimes those options hurt the overall experience for all owners. Take a look at the Arcade model on the XBox 360. Not having a hard drive in every unit hurt what could have been done if they all had one. Sony also faced huge challenges with bluray and its cost associated to making the PS3. They stuck with it and in the end it paid off. I think Microsoft will continue to stick with Kinect as well. I imagine they have invested a lot on it and with the acquisition of Skype all signs point in that direction.
Would a $349 XBox One with Kinect make those considering buying a PS4 change their minds? Or would it just make it more appealing and continue to hold off while they buy a PS4 regardless?
SenjutsuSage
Banned
It's also not even remotely true. Also, Microsoft would be out of their minds to offer a non-kinect model. There's a longer reason that I could go into about why, but I'm not in the mood for a long post.
My years on LIVE, achievements (aka game history), MS money, multiplat games, and most importantly fond memories and enjoyment of the platform.
SwiftDeath
Member
There's a longer reason that I could go into about why, but I'm not in the mood for a long post.
You okay senju? I'm worried about you
Joking aside you haven't seemed to post as often as usual or are you just in other corners of Gaf?
Microsoft should admit to a counterfactual? It is a packin. What a weird headline.
I really think people over estimate the appeal of most franchises. Kinect was microsoft's attempt to differentiate the platform for consumers but also their partners. I'm pretty cynical they thought it would ever be good for gaming but my point is that traditional software alone isn't going to turn a low margin consumer electronics device business with a device using a paradigm from 1993 into a windows like revenue stream. Hence kinect.
I really think people over estimate the appeal of most franchises. Kinect was microsoft's attempt to differentiate the platform for consumers but also their partners. I'm pretty cynical they thought it would ever be good for gaming but my point is that traditional software alone isn't going to turn a low margin consumer electronics device business with a device using a paradigm from 1993 into a windows like revenue stream. Hence kinect.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
You okay senju? I'm worried about you
Joking aside you haven't seemed to post as often as usual or are you just in other corners of Gaf?
A little bit of both. The less I say, the less I get sent on vacations, next one in which may be permanent.
They thought their status as the 10 ton gorilla of the console market could force the issue.
IsntChrisL
Member
I fully believe that Kinect's forced inclusion had nothing to do with games at all. There's a lot of money to made with analytics.
SwiftDeath
Member
So Nuads?
A little bit of both. The less I say, the less I get sent on vacations, next one in which may be permanent.
Ah ok. I suppose that is a real concern on Gaf. I should probably follow suit lol
Polywho? The Kinect is the only next Gen piece of gear on the market and it will be a cold day in hell before I agree to go without it.
Voice controls, Skype, and fitness center are 3 very worthwhile applications.
PS4 brings nothing new to current Gen. For all intents and purposes it is a PS3 with faster hardware. XB1 is the only system that can do something new and different.
Voice controls, Skype, and fitness center are 3 very worthwhile applications.
PS4 brings nothing new to current Gen. For all intents and purposes it is a PS3 with faster hardware. XB1 is the only system that can do something new and different.
oooooer
And yet, MS is not showing any of that "new and different" stuff.
They'll be cutting their sales then or profits (if they do a drop with Kinect still in the box).
Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.
We have a winner.
They are listening to every voice command you use and keeping track of it. They are watching every selection of the dashboard. They are analyzing your patterns, likes, and dislikes, and selling that info to advertisers.