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[RedSwirl]

People are waiting for something with gameplay that wasn't possible on PS3 and Xbox 360. That in itself doesn't make a game good of course, but it helps solidify the justification for purchasing these new consoles.

To be honest though, a lot of what we saw in AAA games on PS3 and 360 was probably possible on PS2, the original Xbox, and Gamecube, just with far less pretty graphics. Except in a few areas, 3D gameplay hasn't had quantum leaps since the N64 and PC games of that era.

 

[HowZatOZ]

Some people on gaf hype stuff so high it can only disappoint...I feel this game might suffer because of it.

It may suffer here, but remember GAF isn't the majority. What we see discussed here is most likely not being discussed by your typical gamer who still shops at EB Games paying $109 for a PS4 copy. Another example would be again the Watch Dogs thread (just too much goodness in there), which has everyone up in arms however I highly doubt your typical gamer even gives a crap.

 

[ricardokenshin]

People are waiting for something with gameplay that wasn't possible on PS3 and Xbox 360. That in itself doesn't make a game good of course, but it helps solidify the justification for purchasing these new consoles.

With the same controller scheme (basically) I don't think there will be enough "innovation" in gameplay archetypes. There will be improvements (see: mgs 1 -> mgs 4) in gameplay as in graphics but they won't be as noticeable unless you play them back to back.

Gameplay improvements depend not only in the hardware but on the game creators.

 

[hydruxo]

There's just so much negativity from gamers in general these days, and it's really sad to see. People lose sight of what games really are and expect every game to reinvent the wheel. That doesn't need to happen.

 

[KaiserBecks]

Because. Fanboys.

Maybe it's fanboys who aren't fed up with this? It's time to improve AI and physics, flashy graphics alone don't impress me anymore.

 

[Astral Dog]

People want new graphics and gameplay mechanics for next gen systems, to say they offer a new "experience" or something, having more hosepower does not necessarily mean a game will have new gameplay or mechanics, in fact, i think it represents more risk than simply offering the same tested, proved mechanics but refined and a good game is a good game, no matter on what system it is

 

[DarthWalden]

I think the problem with the order is that trailers we have got to this point has included everything that jaded gamers love to hate about AAA games. I've seen lots of QTE's, Cutscenes and just a tiny portion gameplay.

I thought the game looked great but I understand where the criticism is coming from.

To contrast the Sunset Overdrive showed none of these things and showed 3 minutes of fun looking gameplay and it was generally well recieved.

If I am RAD, I am putting together right now a section of gameplay that will blow the audience away at E3 something with very little cutscenes that interupt gameplay or hand holding... Something that looks fun and match the graphical fidelity they have shown... Similar to when Cliff went on stage to show the first level of GoW. They've shown us great graphics, a cool looking environment and some near characters and weapons but have only shown us a few underwhelming seconds of gameplay.

 

[Respawn]

How many threads are we going to have based on the new Order gameplay? This is two so far.

Why don't you answer the question?

 

[Paracelsus]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FleetingDemographicRule?from=Main.SevenYearRule

It's the same for gaming, see comments like

by your typical gamer

your typical gamer

Which makes you wonder what a typical gamer is.

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

Amirox stop.

You're asking for logic and reason from people who can't fathom an original thought beyond the usual "why is the gameplay the same just prettier??" garbage.

Why articulate specific thoughts and analysis of what is being offered in relation to what type of game it is when it is easier to dribble out the same stale diarrhea out?

 

[NullPointer]

I don't think people have a problem if it seems like a good and competent version of a last generation game.

The problem people have with The Order is not that it's yet another third person shooter, it's that it looks like a poor version of things that have come before.

Now that I've seen the footage, yeah, this seems about right.

The two guys just standing there on that roof, completely exposed, shrugging off bullet after bullet to the chest before dropping, without any noticeable affect on the others. Linear, scripted sequences followed by on-rails shooting galleries against braindead AI is so damn old at this point, and that footage had nothing fresh to balance out that old formula. It didn't look more polished or refined, or that it had more character or drama, or that there was more player choice or environmental interaction... nothing. Yikes.

 

[RedSwirl]

With the same controller scheme (basically) I don't think there will be enough "innovation" in gameplay archetypes. There will be improvements (see: mgs 1 -> mgs 4) in gameplay as in graphics but they won't be as noticeable unless you play them back to back.

Gameplay improvements depend not only in the hardware but on the game creators.

Well I was thinking of something more on the level of what GTA III introduced back in 2001. Are we ever going to see that kind of quantum leap on consoles again?

 

[Rodney McKay]

I got tired of pure cover based shooters around Gears of War 2, and am mostly done with pure first person shooters after Halo 3/ODST era. If a game has incredible looking graphics then it might be enough to get me to try out a game in a genre I'm tired of, but I still won't be EXCITED about it. There needs to be changes to the core gameplay structures or systems to get me interested.

The Mass Effect series actually became my favorite "shooter" of last gen, not because it has the best shooting gameplay (it doesn't) or because if has the best graphics (it doesn't), but because it's more than just shooting. It does enough to keep me interested in the game between the story interactions, conversation systems, and roaming RPG stuff.

I can totally see myself getting excited for a pure shooter, but only if it advances things by having destructible environments, super smart/fun AI.


As far as other people are concerned, I've absolutely got nothing against people who still enjoy those kinds of genres. I still love racing games, so if a Next-gen Burnout was to come out and play pretty much the same but look INSANE, I would be totally satisfied. So I'm totally happy that there are people who are excited for stuff like Ryse or The Order or whatever else comes out with a specific focus on one specific genre.

 

[braves01]

I think part of that sentiment stems from the fact many of these current gen games seem to have the same old problems that they did last gen, except they look better. Visuals have been improved, but open world games still have too many bad missions, there's still a ton of bloat, Knack is just bad, etc.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

I really don't see the big deal in wanting to see some new gameplay mechanics from new ips in genres that have been heavily saturated over the last 7 years. So far, based on the smidgen of gameplay we've gotten from The Order, they haven't satisfied my hunger for newness...yet. E3 is right around the corner though.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

B-b-but you bought Ryse!

Yes I did, it was cool being a Roman.

 

[Hasney]

Maybe it's fanboys who aren't fed up with this? It's time to improve AI and physics, flashy graphics alone don't impress me anymore.

This part I agree with. I'm tired of just shooting people all the time. The start of The Order trailer looked great to me until a gun was pulled and I honestly wish big budget games would scale back the graphical horsepower if it allowed them to do nicer things with physics and AI. I know why they don't and why they can't if they hope to recoup the investment, but everything is just safe now for the most part with the inflated budgets.

On some other forums, I championed WWE games toning down the graphics to improve the physics. What they showed with dynamic object impacts and the like looked great... Shame the gameplay was utter crap and the physics were buggy as hell, but I was glad to see them try.

 

[Canis lupus]

We've been playing fewer of the same specific takes on genres more often. It's easy enough to go back to every previous generation and look at all of the different takes on roughly similar gametypes and see how they've gotten closer and closer together, only choosing to really amplify the visuals and 'immersive' or cinematic nature of their presentation. Things are becoming more narrow at the top end and those games are precisely the ones that are being heavily promoted in front of and for these new consoles. The more novel twists on familiar games and more greatly expanded evolutions of them are still in the distance, many having been delayed to next year or simply never having had a solid release period to look forward to. This year, apart from to-be-announced games (probably at E3), is looking very last gen with a new coat of paint and very thin, on top of that.

True, but the media doesn't criticize the games with the big budgets like AC's, CoDs, BF's for being yearly rehashes, they're lambasting exclusive games with smaller marketing (presence). Infamous supposedly didnt have "next gen gameplay", in the case of that game, I dunno what the hell that supposed to mean. It's inFamous, it's doing what its predecessors have done, it's not a new game series. I've no idea how you can improve the game mechanics that it would feel next gen. Sure, they could do a complete overhaul of the gameplay, but changing how it plays is merely adopting different mechanics.

 

[EightBitNate]

The Last of Us could have been done on a PS2.

It's stupid to criticize a game for moving the industry forward on its own.

 

[SolidusDave]

I don't really hate on it as I can enjoy great looking games.

But I will be disappointed if further into the gen we don't have games that will feature a ton more (unscripted) interactions with the environment. I'm mostly talking about physics (but can be AI, too) and it doesn't even have to be some major gameplay element, just something to explore for people like me.


Imo, having played a lot of games it can easily break the immersion once you realize you have basically a game with the same geometry of a PS3 game, featuring the same limited interaction but with some effects that make it look almost photorealistic at parts.

I guess this differs from what most people complain about though. As I'm not suddenly saying "oh shit, it's a TPS. In which you shoot things. How old-school!"

 

[EventHorizon]

Simple. The game just does not look fun to play, and the easiest way to express it is to say that it is a derivative knock off of a highly popular game in the genre. If The Order really did look like the iPhone of third person shooters, then there likely wouldn't be this backlash. Perhaps the problem really is that people should be more specific about the faults the see in the game instead of generalizing.

 

[Vire]

Now that I've seen the footage, yeah, this seems about right.

The two guys just standing there on that roof, completely exposed, shrugging off bullet after bullet to the chest before dropping, without any noticeable affect on the others. Linear, scripted sequences followed by on-rails shooting galleries against braindead AI is so damn old at this point, and that footage had nothing fresh to balance out that old formula. It didn't look more polished or refined, or that it had more character or drama, or that there was more player choice or environmental interaction... nothing. Yikes.

Exactly, I don't have a problem with iteration at all. That's where I think Amir0x is a little off base here.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

The other thing to remember is that even The Last of Us got hated and labelled as a walking simulator.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Actually, that was a common criticism of Mario World at the time, and one of the reasons why many people gravitated towards Sonic instead.

silly then, silly now. the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[Darknight]

People are waiting for something with gameplay that wasn't possible on PS3 and Xbox 360. That in itself doesn't make a game good of course, but it helps solidify the justification for purchasing these new consoles.

To be honest though, a lot of what we saw in AAA games on PS3 and 360 was probably possible on PS2, the original Xbox, and Gamecube, just with far less pretty graphics. Except in a few areas, 3D gameplay hasn't had quantum leaps since the N64 and PC games of that era.

I dont believe this. What makes consoles sell is software. Software is king. If somebody finds out their fav franchise is coming back or a new sequel is coming soon (Halo 5, Project Beast, Amplitude HD etc), they will buy the system. Or based on new IP that looks really great and its right up their alley. (TitanFall, Destiny)

All these games, all the software that we look forward to has gameplay elements that have been done hundreds of times. So for some to criticize a game due to them wanting "next gen gameplay" is a bunch of BS. You will only find "next gen gameplay" is gimmicky games such as Kinect or PSEYE or even Project Morpheus to some extent but Virtual Reality games depend on core mechanics that have been done before so Im not so sure myself on that lol. (Cant wait for the inevitable "that VR game looks amazing but plays like tetris...WAH!!!")

On your second point, I agree. God of War 2 was amazing on PS2. It was just amplified on PS3 due to great looking graphics. Same with all last gen games which is nothing bad. Games were awesome.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

Video games are a novelty, so when the gameplay doesn't offer a new hook it bores people.

The 3D remaster of Episode I was technically great, but I still fell asleep because it was Episode I and I had seen 3D movies before. There's gotta be something new.

 

[Baroquemantic]

I think a lot of these people just need something to bitch about, plain and simple. Some of it's trolling, some of it's fanboyism. Barely any of it is valid criticism. But the worst part is how much of a double standard there is sometimes, which more than likely stems from fanboyism. Franchise this on platform A plays just like franchise that on platform B, but it doesn't really matter as it doesn't fit an agenda, regardless of quality.


Anyway, "Last gen gameplay" is the type of thing people with nothing meaningful to contribute say; a bandwagon phrase.

 

[JLeack]

To be honest, gameplay innovation is becoming increasingly rare as more and more games are released. There's only so much potential.

This is why I'm so excited for Project Morpheus and Oculus Rift. They open up a door of new possibilities.

 

[Paracelsus]

Simple. The game just does not look fun to play, and the easiest way to express it is to say that it is a derivative knock off of a highly popular game in the genre. If The Order really did look like the iPhone of third person shooters, then there likely wouldn't be this backlash. Perhaps the problem really is that people should be more specific about the faults the see in the game instead of generalizing.

Read again the op, Amir0x clearly stated there's nothing wrong with a derivative knock off of a highly popular game in the genre, but depends on which genre really.

 

[Servbot24]

Last gen gameplay is meaningless.

Boring gameplay is not meaningless.

So far RaD have chosen to show boring gameplay from The Order.

Hopefully there is also some fun gameplay and they will choose to show it soon.

 

[Griss]

Preach on, Amirox.

I've said from day 1 that while originality is nice, execution trumps it every time. Amazing how many people don't seem to agree.

Problem is that a lot of us grew up in an era where every year brought massive advance in gameplay as we were in the big bang of 3D gaming and this shit was only being figured out at the time. Those days are past. Most of what we see now is evolution, not revolution. If people are unhappy with that then they're going to be unhappy with gaming for a long time.

 

[Jinko]

This part I agree with. I'm tired of just shooting people all the time. The start of The Order trailer looked great to me until a gun was pulled and I honestly wish big budget games would scale back the graphical horsepower if it allowed them to do nicer things with physics and AI. I know why they don't and why they can't if they hope to recoup the investment, but everything is just safe now for the most part with the inflated budgets.

On some other forums, I championed WWE games toning down the graphics to improve the physics. What they showed with dynamic object impacts and the like looked great... Shame the gameplay was utter crap and the physics were buggy as hell, but I was glad to see them try.

And if they did scale back the graphics in favour for physics and AI it would get just as much flak for having crap graphics or low resolutions and what not.

You can't please anyone this gen it seems.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

I dont believe this. What makes consoles sell is software. Software is king.

Not so sure anymore. Everyone's buying PS4's with like 4 kinda eh games, and maybe 1 sorta good one... and nobody buys WiiU's when it drops a killer app that should sell systems but barely does. Also why Vita has no games, even when it does.

It's not like it used to be. It's all about hype, media, perception of value and success etc.

 

[Syrinx]

I think when a new console generation comes, it can be easy to look at it as a sort of "fresh start" or a "clean slate" for the industry, when that really isn't necessarily the case. These consoles are still being marketed to largely the same audience as the previous gen, and the developers haven't gone some radical shift in philosophy or ability as a result of the XBone and PS4 launching. That's not to say there won't be innovative or even groundbreaking new ideas for these consoles, but expecting them right off the bat may be thinking ahead a bit too much.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect new things along with a new gen, but I don't think we're going to have something as earth-shaking to the industry as Super Mario 64 or Grand Theft Auto III, or at least not as early in the gen as those were. But I do think in time these consoles will justify themselves with the quality of the games that do come out, and there is value in just having a solid, if not revolutionary, library of games.

 

[Servbot24]

I've said from day 1 that while originality is nice, execution trumps it every time. Amazing how many people don't seem to agree.

What if the exact same concept is executed well over and over and over and over? Don't you think there comes a time that game devs should say "Okay I think we got that down, let's take a chance now"?

 

[NullPointer]

To be honest, gameplay innovation is becoming increasingly rare as more and more games are released. There's only so much potential.

There is so much potential out there its insane. I think its the nature of funding that keeps big budget gaming stuck on the rails.

And then I play a Fez and I get goosebumps with how fresh it feels, even for something that has so many throwback feels to it. And man, didn't Super Time Force just come out? With single player co-op mindbending madness?

Potential is all around us, and we haven't even begun to delve deeply.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

The issue is that they are indeed playing more or less like the last gen's games.

AI is still dumb and/or scripted to poorly trick you into thinking it's clever, physics is still boring-ass debris with little to no impact on gameplay (contrast this with Wolfenstein on PC, where you can cut through walls with a blow torch to use as cover), and it just feels like everything has been done before.

Watch_Dogs is just GTA but with LEET HACKIN
Ryse is any other QTE button masher with poor combat
Infamous, and all the other games based on existing IPs, are just the same stuff we've seen for ages.

I'm sorry if I'm not excited, but I've found that PC is the platform that is giving me radically, new types of games with the likes of Planetary Annihilation and more.

 

[ricardokenshin]

Maybe it's fanboys who aren't fed up with this? It's time to improve AI and physics, flashy graphics alone don't impress me anymore.

You can't "improve" A.I. without making the game frustratingly hard for regular gamers. The second the A.I. is more intelligent then gamers begin to think the game is cheating. Don't you think that with all the A.I. courses in the university and literature about it we wouldn't have them in the games we play? it's not like it requires a lot of processing power (it doesn't) it just makes the game frustrating.

And what do you mean about physics? destructible environments? yeah that I agree with. We need more destruction.

 

[see5harp]

I'll wait to judge it when it's out and I can play it. If you're judging based solely on the released footage, I don't think it's super unfair. I mean the pre release Ryse threads were all on the "on rails QTE fest" tip. I've played and beat Ryse on Hard....it's not a very good game. I've played and beat Infamous Second Son. It's not a very good game. Execution is more important than both graphics and innovation.

Who cares if there have been collectible card games before? Hearthstone for PC and iPad is a system seller.

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

People don't seem to want re-skinned experiences. I think it essentially boils down to that.

 

[ricardokenshin]

People don't seem to want re-skinned experiences. I think it essentially boils down to that.

I don't know about that. CoD, battlefield, assassins creed sell pretty well.

 

[Darknight]

Not so sure anymore. Everyone's buying PS4's with like 4 kinda eh games, and maybe 1 sorta good one... and nobody buys WiiU's when it drops a killer app that should sell systems but barely does. Also why Vita has no games, even when it does.

It's not like it used to be. It's all about hype, media, perception of value and success etc.

Your comparing apples to oranges. Dont bring your sorrow here about dead or horribly supported systems into this.

We are coming from a very long past generation, the PS4 is cheaper and the better one out of the 2 spec wise. It has the best 3rd party versions of the 2 plus Xbox one shenanigans. Nuff said. Software is coming and upfront sales are from hardcore etc etc.

WiiU has been handled terribly, Nintendo wanted to pull another Wii. Horrible 3rd party support and they themselves only target their small fanbase. Nintendo is hurting themselves.

As for Vita, handhelds are dying. Mobile going up. 3DS has the better software. Lacks proper software support even from Sony and major 3rd parties.

 

[geordiemp]

The issue is that they are indeed playing more or less like the last gen's games.

AI is still dumb and/or scripted to poorly trick you into thinking it's clever, physics is still boring-ass debris with little to no impact on gameplay (contrast this with Wolfenstein on PC, where you can cut through walls with a blow torch to use as cover), and it just feels like everything has been done before.

Watch_Dogs is just GTA but with LEET HACKIN
Ryse is any other QTE button masher with poor combat
Infamous, and all the other games based on existing IPs, are just the same stuff we've seen for ages.

I'm sorry if I'm not excited, but I've found that PC is the platform that is giving me radically, new types of games with the likes of Planetary Annihilation and more.

I myself am ready for meopheus, we need VR to change the way we interact with the game.

Most genres have been done already, hats not to say they are not fun, but we need some innovation.

Sony, get moving with Morpheus, or Samsung or someone else will

 

[RayMaker]

because visuals are a massive selling point

but once people get past the oohs and arrhhs they then realise the game is not better then the game they were playing a few years ago on the last gen system.


Also people want new things, see guitar hero and FPS fatqiuge. They dont want the same old thing repackaged in a nice new shiny box.

plus

gameplay>graphics

 

[SolidusDave]

I have to say games like MGS2&3 spoiled me. Even on PS2 they already had more interactions with the environment and AI than the majority of today's games. It wasn't part of the core gameplay either, just there for you to discover/experiment with.

 

[yurinka]

I think it's just trolling, Amirox. Fanboys say that to attack the enemy, while ignoring it for their favorite game. Like with many other things, such as:

-Game is too short
-Game is too lineal
-Dumb story
-Too scripted
-(If it has great graphics/great cutscenes/storytelling focus) it's a movie, not a game
-Graphics sucks (doesn't have graphics)/Graphics and not important (has great graphics)
-Doesn't have 1080p/60fps
-Gameplay sucks (if it isn't exactly like their favorite AAA or is innovative)
-It's a rip-off (if it isn't exactly like their favorite AAA or is innovative)
-Doesn't have co-op/don't waste time with co-op and invest it in a proper campaign
-It's a shit (if this sequel is not exactly like the previous one)/they are stagnant (if the sequel is too similar)
-Poor sales (everything outside Mario, Halo, Call of Duty and GTA)
-Doesn't have games (even if has more and with a better Metacritic or sales)
-long etc

 

[UberTag]

Innovation isn't going to come from games with outrageous budgets.
Publishers are too risk-averse to try anything new and ambitious in that space.

It's a ridiculous standard of expectation people are holding these games up to. So it's no wonder they're setting themselves up for disappointment.

This is the video game equivalent of going to see Transformers: Age of Extinction and then bitching why you're not seeing Oscar-worthy performances from the lead actors. Like, why in the hell would you expect a movie pandering to that audience with that kind of budget to deliver ANYTHING of substance?

Innovative AI? Revolutionary gameplay? Why are you expecting these things from The Order 1886 or any other game hyped to this scale?

Of COURSE you're going to get a prettier version of a game you've already played before.
Publishers can't risk doing anything more than that because of how outrageously ridiculous they've let their production budgets bloat.

 

[Auto-Reply]

I guess if AAA gaming wouldn't be that costly and risky there would be far less of such complaints, imagine a game like FTL in third person with state of the art graphics... will never happen but i guess some people still hope that such a thing is possible in this industry. In the past (15-20 years ago) innovation was not seperated from the highest calibre of games as there was no distinction, but now there is. You have a gameplay concept i can't calculate the profits it will bring, there's the door, go make a kickstarter or something.

 

[KingJ2002]

I agree with your post amir0x but i also look at the concept of "next generation gaming" and in name alone it promises a new experience that differs from the previous.

if it's through refinement... great... but it's clear that people want new ways to play at the start of each generation to actually provide more value for their early adoption.

We will get half assed attempts at innovation, and we will get fully thought out experiences and I think as a developer that should be the focus for each generation rather than just settling on refinement of old concepts.

It's easy to focus on the refinement of core experiences, and as gamers it's easy for us to just plunk our money down to settle for refinement which could come in the form of "sequelitis"... but that's not what the next generation is about... at least to me. I look for new and different... especially at the start of a new generation.

So... We should care... or things like force feedback, motion controls, and pressure sensitive triggers wouldn't be important to the "refinement" of genres.

 

[orioto]

People don't seem to want re-skinned experiences. I think it essentially boils down to that.

I think this is more about what they like or not. They don't want re-skinned versions of boring or tired games. They'll take re-skinned uncharted any days.

I think there is a debat about people wanting new things just cause the Order doesn't have a lots of things to impress except for the general presentation. I mean for example Gears of Wars was not super original nor rich, but it had GIANT MONSTERS. They just need to put some candies in their basket.

That's what i was saying about Sony earlier, they act too subtle, almost like they don't have anything to do to impress or seduce.