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[zeldablue]

Well for the bolded, it's good that you would get a default Link .. right?
That's why they have default/ official/ cannon characters (Like with Pokemon and ME and so on) with the option for CC. I surely don't think they would force you to make your character LOOK like Link ... they would just default to that.

And I'm addressing CC because really, by their own definition that's the most simple answer. Sure, would love to play as Zelda or Impa ... but that really doesn't address anything on the topic of "changing Link" which is kinda what this topic came from.

In Pokemon you have Pokemon trainer, in ME you have Shepard. In Zelda you have Link, which isn't a generic thing that he does, his name is literally Link. If you were to change Link to be like me, a black woman...it wouldn't be Link anymore. It would be someone else. However if you changed Shepard or Pokemon trainer his name wouldn't have to change. He/she is still Shepard/trainer.

I don't think Zelda is the series for this. I don't play Zelda so I can plop myself into the game. I always name Link Link or some obscene name. I consider him a iconic character who I am to witness the world with.

If you want CC in all games, well, that's fine, but I think it destroys the responsibility of the designers. I think designers should create new and more diverse characters. I don't want to do that for them at all, I want to play the game exactly how it was designed and intended...especially with Zelda.

This isn't a social problem, this is a gameplay and genre problem. If the main character is a black woman it better be because that's how the designers wanted it and not because I'm expected to place myself in the game.

And when I said player select, It'd be the same story either way, but it'd still have predefined characters with canon names.

 

[Tetranet]

How is Link representing me as a female player? Last I remember half the freaking cast of Ocarina of Time gives him "do me eyes" at some point (as I, at the same time, rolled my own mine).

I feel like saying that Link is supposed to "represent the player" a big misnomer then when it really, really matters to people that he stays a fella.

F*** it. Why not? It's easy enough to add large breasts on female design, I want bigger muscles!

...Unless they're really going for him looking like a 14 year old here.

Wii U Link is designed with a gender-neutral approach. This is the most andogynous design ever made for Link. Right now, there is no clear indication of Link's genre in anything that has been seen or said about Zelda Wii U. Maybe, just maybe you could consider the possibility that the new design is meant to be a unisex Link that people can interpret based on their perception and project what they want on Link.

Why does a female design need visible breasts to be one? Can you seriously claim that? A male design doesn't need facial hair for sure. The new design can represent everyone by being unisex, but you're just hell bent on being 100% female, to the exclusion of male representation and everything in between. You have a binary perception of gender like 9/10 people on GAF, and yet you all claim "championing equality" and "fighting sexism".

but giving him such a specific character design is silly in 2014.

Wha-, what? Have you even looked at the design? Would you seriously call it specifically male? This entire discussion started because people could not tell, because it was NOT specific. The entire issue stems from the fact that the design is vague.

When the reality of the Zelda series is that Link is always, always depicted as a white male despite the fact that the lore has made room for Link to be depicted as anything else, the creators do not need to explicitly state what their reasoning is for this. The result is the same, regardless.

Well tough titty, It's how a lot of people feel about Aonuma's reasoning here.

They'd be better off just saying that they have a specific vision for Link and that's just the end of it. Hell, them coming out and just saying that would end a lot of debates. But in 2014 with all the technology we have saying that you're sticking to a white male character because it represents the player just doesn't make a lot of sense, and infuriates some people because it inadvertently demonstrates how out-of-touch with your player-base you are.

...how, exactly? How is the end result of these two statements any different? Do you think people were expecting Aonuma to come out and say "We want to keep Link a white male and that's why we aren't changing him!".

Can you really use "white male" and its connotations, for a character designed like this?

Do you see "white males" like this daily? Are "white males" andogynous? You just can't see beyond your narrow point of view, that Link is a white male. Link is not. You are out-of-touch with the issue, Aonuma certainly isn't.

This unisex design DOES represent the player, more than ANY clearly male or female design. In fact, changing this design of Link to a pure female excludes more people than it currently includes. They have a specific vision, and that includes everyone. They are not sticking with a "white male design" and then proceeding to claim it is reflective. They create a unisex character and then state that this represents everyone.

Not to mention that Link was conceived in an Asian country.

A female lead would have been such a bold, strong indicator of a conviction to move in a completely new direction for a series that has grown absolutely geriatric. And it would be an unprecedented decision not just in gaming, but across all forms of media. A decision like this would be sheer pop culture that Zelda has failed to attain since the days of Wind Waker.

No it wouldn't have been. There is a new direction with the new design and you all just can't see it because you are stuck between seeing the new Link as either exclusively male or exclusive female, which is flat-out wrong. The basis of this discussion is all the proof you ever needed about the ambiguity. It's not only shows on the design, but people all over are genuinely confused in practice.



I'll link my other post, again.. This is a new direction, and one they have taken already. Link this time around is more andogynous than ever, and this is the most creative and true way of representing every player's gender. By making the design vague, by being vague in all statements so far, the character's gender is left up to the player's interpretation, and that's what's amazing.





Even If my theory is wrong, which I won't accept as being such without clear verbal references to a male sex from Aonuma and in-game, the point that Link's design represents a lot more players than a typical male still stands. By being this andogynous Link can still represent a large spectrum of people who are close to the gender threshold but remain male, in essence a very, very large spectrum of males.

So when you are complaining about the Wii U design, you are complaining about them too, not just so called "white males".

 

[WrenchNinja]

Again that doesn't change the fact that he is still referred to canonically as Link. There's also the fact that he's not the only character in gaming that can be renamed. I view all the the characters in FF7 as characters even if I change their names to "shit".

Plus as a side-note I'd rather see the ability to change Link's name go before they ever added CC. I don't use it anyways, as his name is Link.

Again I did not say he wasnt a character, the implication is he is mostly a bad one outside of Wind Waker. And again you would have a point here if FF7 hadnt had come out in the 90s when naming your characters even when when well defined was still a thing. FF moved away from this after FFX which was 13 years ago. ALBW came out last year, and surprise I can still call him Batman.

I too would enjoy it being removed, I would also enjoy Link having some actual character. You may not use it, but it's still there.

 

[royalan]

Wha-, what? Have you even looked at the design? Would you seriously call it specifically male? This entire discussion started because people could not tell, because it was NOT specific. The entire issue stems from the fact that the design is vague.

...No. Did I call it specifically male?

 

[Tetranet]

...No. Did I call it specifically male?

When you're getting this upset, it's time to stop posting.

You're also completely neglecting that I've responded to this already. You're more than welcome to disagree with my point, but please, you might want to stop banging your head against a desk as though I haven't addressed this point at all.

But here, I'll do it again. I'll even bold it for you this time:

When the reality of the Zelda series is that Link is always, always depicted as a white male despite the fact that the lore has made room for Link to be depicted as anything else, the creators do not need to explicitly state what their reasoning is for this. The result is the same, regardless.

Aonuma does not have to come out and explicitly state that THIS is the reason Link is not made female. Finding out WHY Link isn't made, specifically, female is unimportant because there are TWO things we can logically glean from Aunoma's statements:

1) Nintendo views the appearance of Link as unimportant because, to them, Link merely represents the player.

2) Link has thus far ALWAYS been depicted as a white male, despite the fact that the story doesn't require it.

Aonuma's statements can be taken as reasoning for why Link isn't depicted as ANYTHING else (a female or a goddamn Goron for all I care). Saying Link's appearance doesn't matter because he "represents the player" but giving him such a specific character design is silly in 2014. And frankly, expecting Nintendo to get more specific at this point is just as silly. It's all there unless you've purposely got your damn eyes closed.



But not a back story and history, which was the point I was responding to.

This is exactly what you're saying in this post and all the rest I've quoted, and even more before that. . You keep going on and on about this non-existent white male, about a non-existent specifically male design that depicts this, and calling the design silly for supposedly not representing all players. This is exactly what it does, but you claim the opposite. You're not the only one seeing the topic like this.

 

[royalan]

This is exactly what you're saying in this post and all the rest I've quoted, and even more before that. . You keep going on and on about this non-existent white male, about a non-existent specifically male design that depicts this, and calling the design silly for supposedly not representing all players. This is exactly what it does, but you claim the opposite. You're not the only one seeing the topic like this.

Non-existent? What the hell is Link been in pretty much every game?

I'm not JUST talking about this new game when I bring up Link always being a white male. I AGREE with you that jury is still out on this one (I would love if it weren't male, or ever defined). But, until we get confirmation of otherwise, either from Aonuma or playing the game, this Link is a white male just like every other Link has been so far.

Your theory is not yet fact.

Also, androgynous representation is NOT female representation.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

In OoT everyone is sexist and ageist. That's the point. (Both men and women are very sexist) The carpenter's boss complains about men being "not real men." He yells at useless effeminate men and even his son, calling them worthless. Mido bullies Link because he's not a "real man." Darunia does the same. Ruto didn't want you're help because she was capable on her own. You have to force her to let you help her which causes her to suddenly expect you to carry her because that's how chivalry works right? The whole game is about a boy in a society that is stuck in a very stupidly sexist, ageist and racist world. And it rubs off on him and the player. That's the point. All the girls don't care about Link until he proves he's "cool" or his worth. And guys won't accept him until he does something "cool." As the player you're suppose to innocently witness the world like Link does and think about it without Link talking for you. You're suppose to take in how people and society are...weird and judge mental from a childlike perspective.

The only character who breaks the mold is the wisest person of them all. Adult Zelda. She's the only one who bases things on wisdom instead of tradition. She counters the obsession of being a "real man" by pretending to be one herself. This was obviously a way to confuse the crap out of everything you had previously learned on your journey. And at the end she doesn't reward Link or call him cool. They don't make out or live together forever after. She tells him this "male power fantasy" is wrong, and then tells Link to be who he is instead of being what everyone told him to be. She essentially reveals how deceived Link has been by falling in line with a common way of thinking. Stop following "fate" and be free to be yourself. Soooo, the moral of the story is actually very feminine and wise and smart and progressive. Link then goes back in time and lives life without being a hero and instead lives for himself like Zelda advised. Link wasn't mature at all still which causes Majora's Mask to happen.

Silent Hill 2 is also an extremely feminist story despite having a dude. The dude is a witness with the player. They learn together.

I think both Koizumi and Aonuma like the idea of breaking tradition but also feel bound by it...which is kind of what the Zelda series is about. :/

In Pokemon you have Pokemon trainer, in ME you have Shepard. In Zelda you have Link, which isn't a generic thing that he does, his name is literally Link. If you were to change Link to be like me, a black woman...it wouldn't be Link anymore. It would be someone else. However if you changed Shepard or Pokemon trainer his name wouldn't have to change. He/she is still Shepard/trainer.

I don't think Zelda is the series for this. I don't play Zelda so I can plop myself into the game. I always name Link Link or some obscene name. I consider him a iconic character who I am to witness the world with.

If you want CC in all games, well, that's fine, but I think it destroys the responsibility of the designers. I think designers should create new and more diverse characters. I don't want to do that for them at all, I want to play the game exactly how it was designed and intended...especially with Zelda.

This isn't a social problem, this is a gameplay and genre problem. If the main character is a black woman it better be because that's how the designers wanted it and not because I'm expected to place myself in the game.

And when I said player select, It'd be the same story either way, but it'd still have predefined characters with canon names.

Zeldablue, you have straight up destroyed this thread with cool logic and excellent analysis. I feel like my eyes have been opened. Thank you.

(I also always name Link "Link")

 

[Tetranet]

Also, androgynous representation is NOT female representation.

I've explained how this works for everyone, by being gender-neutral (or unisex or w/e term) people can project what they personally feel. If you don't agree with my approach that's fine.

 

[BGBW]

You know a lot of people say Link is called Link because of the link with the player but wasn't another reason revealed recently that the original LoZ story was going to span across two different time periods and Link was the link between those two times.

To me, people being against CC Link is like people being against Gay marriage ...

lol this is exactly what I was warning about yesterday. It has come to pass.

 

[skull kid]

You know a lot of people say Link is called Link because of the link with the player but wasn't another reason revealed recently that the original LoZ story was going to span across two different time periods and Link was the link between those two times.


lol this is exactly what I was warning about yesterday. It has come to pass.

yup

“Link sprite was designed by Takashi Tezuka. Like Mario, they wanted a character that would be recognisable from his sword and shield so they thought of a long hat and long ears and went into the direction of an elf. At the time, when you said long ears you thought of Peter Pan and as he’s a Disney fan, they drew inspiration from it.
Link’s name comes from the fact that originally, the fragments of the Triforce were supposed to be electronic chips. The game was to be set in both the past and the future and as the main character would travel between both and be the link between them, they called him Link.”

 

[Orniletter]

lol this is exactly what I was warning about yesterday. It has come to pass.

It reads like self-parody at times.

Seriously, beeing against changing the gender of a well established character...just because... who has been male since 1986 (!) is now on the same level as discriminating homosexuals ?

LOL

Edit: I would be 100% fine with a mode that lets you start the game from the very beginning as Zelda to save Link or prince charming or whatever. I just don´t like this notion that everyone has to be pandered to at all times.

 

[zeldablue]

Zeldablue, you have straight up destroyed this thread with cool logic and excellent analysis. I feel like my eyes have been opened. Thank you.

(I also always name Link "Link")

If you want to hear my long spiel on how Link's journey in OoT greatly influenced why Majora's Mask happened take to my reddit post.

Link has "character." It's pretty much hidden in the undertones of what the game is about. But it should ideally correlate with the player's personal "character" so that anyone can relate. Regardless of boy or girl, child or adult, Link is freakin' universal. @__@

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

I've explained how this works for everyone, by being gender-neutral (or unisex or w/e term) people can project what they personally feel. If you don't agree with my approach that's fine.

The problem with gender neutrality is that it forces all the NPCs in game to use gender-neutral pronouns for Link. That's not an easy trick for a writer to pull off you know.

 

[Kinyou]

Can you really use "white male" and its connotations, for a character designed like this?

Do you see "white males" like this daily? Are "white males" andogynous? You just can't see beyond your narrow point of view, that Link is a white male. Link is not. You are out-of-touch with the issue, Aonuma certainly isn't.

This unisex design DOES represent the player, more than ANY clearly male or female design. In fact, changing this design of Link to a pure female excludes more people than it currently includes. They have a specific vision, and that includes everyone. They are not sticking with a "white male design" and then proceeding to claim it is reflective. They create a unisex character and then state that this represents everyone.

Not to mention that Link was conceived in an Asian country.

Yeah, Link looks basically like an anime character and those aren't meant to look Caucasian.

 

[skull kid]

The problem with gender neutrality is that it forces all the NPCs in game to use gender-neutral pronouns for Link. That's not an easy trick for a writer to pull off you know.

for the sake of argument, not really that difficult because it would also apply to the characters in the game. Some characters would see Link as boy and others as a girl. Link is silent so he/she would never correct them.

 

[Phades]

I guess the TLR summary for this is that very few folks read Aonuma quotes regarding Epona in 2004, since it is phrased very similarly to what he said about the trailer for the new game initially. Then just took it upon themselves to decide what is right and true.

Out of everything that was discussed. The possibilities for doing a Gannon point of view game transitioning into something else and/or Zelda doing something similar were the only real interesting concepts brought up. Everything else seemed to delve into the realm of fairly weird and somewhat silly aspects of things that really have nothing to do with the franchise since its inception.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Damn, people against having Link be anything other than light-skinned male were just waiting for a comment like Black Wind's to jump all over. Being against a female Link is not as bad as being against gay marriage. Obviously — I'd be willing to bet most anyone who's suggesting there's anyone actually saying that is being purposefully obtuse.

However, they are similar in that there's no good reasons to be against either. None. Not only that, but looking back through this thread after reading What Black Wind said, many of those arguments against having a girl Link sound similar to arguments against gay marriage, none of which hold water beyond personal preference.

No one in this thread has provided any good reasons as to why Link shouldn't be female. The only things people have mentioned are all are based on personal taste ("just wouldn't be right"/"Link shouldn't be wildly different this time around"), don't actually dictate that Link must be male ("he has to be recognizable as Link" even though a girl Link could wear the same outfit), or don't even fit with the history of the series ("Link has to be consistent" even though there have been huge shifts in his art style and design throughout the years).

Where I really begin to understand Black Wind's statement is here: tradition and sanctity of Link as a "character" are frequently cited as reasons that require he must stay male. Just because something has been done one way for a long time does not alone dictate that it should stay that way. You hear that all the time with people who believe opposite-sex marriage is "sacred" and can't be changed in any way; it's an arbitrary, subjective cut-off point as to which consenting adults can marry.

Similarly, there's the personal preference of how different each Link can be from the others that people are using as "proof" as to why Link can't be different in this one specific way. Link's been a little kid, a teen, more realistic, toon style, in 2D games, 3D games, Etc. for some reason, Link being a girl is just too far. Why? Well, because that's just too far.

Then there's the character of Link, one that has been deemed something of a blank slate by series creators, something that the player can project their own personality onto. Many people who've said Link can't be a woman have argued that the character of Link is sacrosanct and well-defined, despite it being purposefully undefined so that different people can better insert themselves into Link position. Just like opposite sex marriage itself not being constant across the board, there are no rules about what Link should be that are dependent on Link's sex/gender.

When you take a second to think about the parallel instead of thinking "Aha! he compared something about a video game to a greater social issue!!! Now's my chance to undermine the position he's representing!!" then it actually makes some sense.

If you don't want Link to be female, then fine. That's your personal preference. If you say Link shouldn't or can't be female, then you're full of shit.

 

[Kieli]

If you don't want Link to be female, then fine. That's your personal preference. If you say Link shouldn't or can't be female, then you're full of shit.

-.-

What about Mario and Luigi.

How about Prince Peach and Prince Daisy.

What is the point of changing an established character's gender (one who has been around for 20+ years)? Why not just feature Zelda (disregarding the director's statement about having to then change the name to Legend of Link) or make a new character called Linkette?

Have her be an alternate dimension version of Link, Link's twin, or whatever. Why are you guys all so insistent on changing LINK to be female? What possible purpose does it serve?

You guys want more gender representation in your games, you got it with my above mentioned suggestions....

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Link is just a fuckin' strange thing at this point. Like he's super-generic-hero-guy who doesn't talk or have much of a personality so the player can put themselves in his shoes or whatever. But then you got all these third-person cutscenes like a traditional game where it implies he talks and he's making all these faces like in TP and SS and falling in love with that one chick in TP and its like, "Man, this guy isn't me what hell". I mean, avatar quote me if you like, but keeping the entire game in first person/never actually seeing Gordon really helps with the illusion. And there's a in-built story reason that Link could basically be anything depending on the timeline, but he always seems to come back to white elf dude because at this point thats just his defined look.

He's in this really weird in-between place between traditional character and audience surrogate that I just don't think really works if you think about it for more than five seconds? Thats kinda how you get threads like that this where everybody has their own interpretation of what Link is and could be, because he's in a very odd half-way house of characterization nowadays.

 

[Marlowe89]

But, until we get confirmation of otherwise, either from Aonuma or playing the game, this Link is a white male just like every other Link has been so far.

So fucking what?

 

[Kieli]

If the main character is female, she's not Link. She's Linkette, Linkeria, Linky-chan.

And what's wrong with that? Link is already a person with an established image in our minds. One that has 20 years of history.

If anything, changing the character AND changing her gender will be a bigger shift for the series than just straight up changing Link's gender.

 

[Kieli]

So fucking what?

Create.

A.

New.

Character.

Who.

Is.

Female.

Ok?

 

[PdotMichael]

If you don't want Link to be female, then fine. That's your personal preference. If you say Link shouldn't or can't be female, then you're full of shit.

To me, people being against CC Link is like people being against Gay marriage ...

Damn, what went wrong?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Damn, what went wrong?

black people fighting for diversity whenever we can

 

[ioriyagami]

Kanji complex: insecure males wanting Link to be a girl so they can explain their wood comfortably

 

[Spring-Loaded]

-.-

What about Mario and Luigi.

How about Prince Peach and Prince Daisy.

First, considering the metric ton of games with those characters, I wouldn't be actively against genderswaps of them. Even ignoring how many instances of male Mario/female Peach/Etc. there are, it would be a non-issue to have a Super Maria game.

On top of that, Link is even more appropriate for a genderswap because each Link is a reincarnation. There doesn't need to be a really strong justification for such a change for Nintendo characters, but even if there needed to be, reincarnation is a enough.

What is the point of changing an established character's gender (one who has been around for 20+ years)?

Can't speak for everyone, but most of what I've seen in this thread consists of people saying Link can be female, and others saying that Link shouldn't be female. I and many others aren't saying that Link should be female.

The point? There doesn't need to be a point, especially considering there never needed to be a point to making Link male in the first place. There are benefits to either making Link female or adding the option for the player to choose, like in recent Pokemon games. There doesn't have to be a point, really, unless there's a point for Link to have been male in the first place. What's most important is that it wouldn't hurt the series in any way and at worst, would make some people initially uncomfortable. Not everyone will be appeased either way.

I even bring up the "tradition" argument in the post you quoted. It doesn't say anything. "This thing's been one way for a long time; it should stay that way!" doesn't hold water in today's society. We change things so much in so many different ways already. This one change (or addition) in a video game would objectively be too far? "Too far" is a matter of personal preference in this instance, nothing more.

Why not just feature Zelda (disregarding the director's statement about having to then change the name to Legend of Link) or make a new character called Linkette?

Have her be an alternate dimension version of Link, Link's twin, or whatever. Why are you guys all so insistent on changing LINK to be female? What possible purpose does it serve?

We can do this the other way too. Why not have this reincarnation of Link be a girl? Why does Link, a character who's name is always up to the player, have to be male? Why would it be acceptable to have Linkette be completely different alt-universe version of Link, yet it's not okay for this particular reincarnation of Link to be female?

Create.

A.

New.

Character.

Who.

Is.

Female.

Ok?

Why?

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I don't want Link to be female. With that said I'd love to play as Zelda/Shiek in a zelda game. Maybe make Link be in trouble and Zelda has to save him. Story writes itself. And she's already an established character.

I'm just against changing a characters race or gender. I much prefer to use existing characters instead or just create brand new ones and use them instead.

Before anyone asks why I feel like this, I just think it's lazy. It's like you can't create a female character and have her be popular based on her own merits so you have to use something you've had for how many years instead. Just lazy.

 

[……forgetit]

black people fighting for diversity whenever we can

As a black man, I prefer link the way he is and if they want to drastically change his appearance then he's a different character.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

strange comment to make in the first place.

 

[PdotMichael]

black people fighting for diversity whenever we can

Replacing an etablished character isn't about diversity though. Diversity would be to want new characters of different groups.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

As a black man, I prefer link the way he is and if they want to drastically change his appearance then he's a different character.

And as Black Man™, I recognize Link is a video game avatar, not Jesus

Replacing an etablished character isn't about diversity though. Diversity would be to want new characters of different groups.

Did Toon Link replace OoT Link?

Did OoT Link replace LttP Link

 

[PdotMichael]

Did Toon Link replace OoT Link

so Yarn Yoshi isn't the real Yoshi?

Different artstyle, same character.

 

[Mit-]

I don't think there's anything androgynous about this new design. For one, it's Japanese character design. Two, it's drawing on elements of Link designs from before Ocarina of Time. Especially the sideburns and darker shade of hair.

With the long sideburns, it makes sense that he'd also have long hair in the back, later to be covered by the classic green hat.

 

[Marlowe89]

Did Toon Link replace OoT Link?

Did OoT Link replace LttP Link

No, and that's why they're the exact same character.

I sincerely, legitimately hope Link remains a white androgynous male as long as the franchise continues to exist. That's his predefined appearance, that's who he is. Making him a female or some other "underrepresented" race would alter the character far too much for my liking and would feel more like pandering than real diversity.

 

[……forgetit]

And as Black Man™, I recognize Link is a video game avatar, not Jesus



Did Toon Link replace OoT Link?

Did OoT Link replace LttP Link

Ironically Jesus gets more appearance variation than link, also as I said before it depends on your interpretation if Link, my first Zelda game was Wind waker, played at a friend's but didn't finish at the time, but I later went back and played some of the others, but as a result, I see Link as a certain character with a certain appearance, as opposed to an Avatar to reflect onto and/or change. Which seems to be the point of contention here.

 

[The Silver]

As a black man, I prefer link the way he is and if they want to drastically change his appearance then he's a different character.

that's the thing though, making Link a female WOULDN'T drastically change his appearance.

It's by far the most harmless way to change him up without really affecting anything unlike turning him into an old man or giving him muscles like Superman.






And there doesn't need to be some almighty reason for change, this reincarnation of Link is now a girl, done and done, you don't need some "reason" to do that. Just like you don't need some reason for this Link to have a sister and that other Link doesn't.

You can't do that for characters like Mario and Samus because the lore of there games do not allow it and their designs will have to change too much, Mario's name would have to be changed to Maria. At that point they wouldn't be female/male versions but just new characters in their own right.

For all I care Link can be exactly how he is now until the end of time, my stance is that the lore of the game and the design and name of the character allows for him to be changed into a female with very very very minimal impact.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

so Yarn Yoshi isn't the real Yoshi?

Different artstyle, same character.

So how old is link in Wind Waker? like a 1,000 right.

No, and that's why they're the exact same character.

I sincerely, legitimately hope Link remains a white male as long as the franchise continues to exist. That's his predefined appearance, that's who he is. Making him a female or some other "underrepresented" race would alter the character far too much for my liking and would feel more like pandering than real diversity.

It would alter the character far too much for your liking, yes. Just like people who thought WW Link was altered too much. It's a personal preference. However, you've got people saying the series can't do this, despite there being nothing that objectively dictates that.

And again, same character? You can make Link look entirely different between games and make each one a separate reincarnation without going too far, but making him a her suddenly goes beyond the threshold of what's acceptable?

Ironically Jesus gets more appearance variation than link, also as I said before it depends on your interpretation if Link, my first Zelda game was Wind waker, played at a friend's but didn't finish at the time, but I later went back and played some of the others, but as a result, I see Link as a certain character with a certain appearance, as opposed to an Avatar to reflect onto and/or change. Which seems to be the point of contention here.

This Link in the trailer isn't wearing his green tunic. That doesn't fit with his "certain appearance."

I understand where people's contention lies, it just isn't justified by anything beyond personal taste is all.

 

[PdotMichael]

that's the thing though, making Link a female WOULDN'T drastically change his appearance.

It's by far the most harmless way to change him up without really affecting anything unlike turning him into an old man or giving him muscles like Superman.

And there doesn't need to be some almighty reason for change, this reincarnation of Link is now a girl, done and done, you don't need some "reason" to do that.

You can't do that for characters like Mario and Samus because the lore of there games do not allow it and their designs will have to change too much, Mario's name would have to be changed to Maria. At that point they wouldn't be female versions but just new characters in their own right.

For all I care Link can be exactly how he is now until the end of time, my stance is that the lore of the game and the design and name of the character allows for him to be changed into a female with very very very minimal impact.

You could easily genderbend Mario or Samus and nothing of worth would change. And no one claims that a female character couldn't be the heroine of a Zelda style adventure.

We're talking about changing/replacing the main characters of a long and etablished series. So, yeah, the hero of the Zelda series should stay Link how we know him - the same way there is no reason to change Samus.

Pokemon is a bad example because every game starts with a completly new trainer without that the new trainer does have any connection to the older trainers. You could even fight against Red in Pokemon Gold/Silver.

 

[SenorArdilla]

You could easily genderbend Mario or Samus and nothing of worth would change. And no one claims that a female character couldn't be the heroine of a Zelda style adventure.

We're talking about changing/replacing the main characters of a long and etablished series. So, yeah, the hero of the Zelda series should stay Link how we know him - the same way there is no reason to change Samus.

Pokemon is a bad example because every game starts with a completly new trainer without that the new trainer does have any connection to the older trainers. You could even fight against Red in Pokemon Gold/Silver.

Add in the fact that in some of the newer Pokemon games, the person who you don't choose to play as still pops up in your playthrough in some way.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Aonuma's still being intentionally coy about it all, and I like that. It would be pretty neat if Link is left so ambiguous all the way into the retail release.

I'd love to see a female Link, but a question-mark Link is interesting too. At the very least, it's fun to see all the jimmies getting rustled in here.

 

[BGBW]

You know there are some people who think there is no timeline and that LoZ games are just a retelling of the same story so for them this is the same Link as all others. Technically for these people it could cause brand confusion if you changed his gender no matter how much you tried to convince them that it's not the same Link it's a reincarnation.

 

[Kieli]

Why?

Why not?

But yeah, I have never played a single Zelda game before. So I'm going to excuse myself out of this thread because I have no idea how ingrained a template Link really is (according to some, it's just an avatar; according to others, there's definitely a core Link to which the devs mold a variation for each game).

I was basing my arguments on the latter interpretation (in which case I see changing Link's gender about as silly as changing Mario and Peach's gender). Some people are arguing based on the former, in which case changing Link's gender is no different than having the option to choose Shepard or FemShep (though there's obviously no choice here).

 

[Marlowe89]

And again, same character? You can make Link look entirely different between games and make each one a separate reincarnation without going too far, but making him a her suddenly goes beyond the threshold of what's acceptable?

See, this is where you and I differ. To me, Link has never looked "entirely different" between games. His hairstyle, skin tone, gender, and somewhat effeminate-but-boyish face has ALWAYS remained similar enough in every installment that, indeed, suddenly making him a her absolutely goes beyond the threshold of what's acceptable for me. However, I do acknowledge that it's a subjective and debatable topic.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

We're talking about changing/replacing the main characters of a long and etablished series. So, yeah, the hero of the Zelda series should stay Link how we know him - the same way there is no reason to change Samus.

How do we know him? What makes Link Link, what makes all the changes made to each reincarnation/iteration of Link acceptable if he's supposed to stay "how we know him"?

Why not?

Exactly. A lot of people, seemingly yourself included, think anyone who isn't actively against Link being female are actually advocating for this change. Most are just refuting the notion that Link can't be female. You can ask "why?" or "why not?" to the notion of making Link female and there are no objective answers for either.

See, this is where you and I differ. To me, Link has never looked "entirely different" between games. His hairstyle, skin tone, gender, and somewhat effeminate-but-boyish face has ALWAYS remained similar enough in every installment that, indeed, suddenly making him a her absolutely goes beyond the threshold of what's acceptable for me. However, I do acknowledge that it's a subjective and debatable topic.

Yes, for you. That's what all this has been about. There are people throughout this thread who are going beyond saying "for me" and are trying to argue their stance objectively.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Can we change the thread title to "discuss why we should change the sex of every video game character we feel like"

Once again nothing is stopping doctor who from being a female. Nothing besides tradition and a chance of alienating fans which producers won't take. Nintendo is probably in a similar situation.

 

[mantidor]

That's what kind of cracks me up about the hardcore anti character creator crowd. They can always just play as the default character. The only argument against it that I have seen that holds any weight is the dialogue being gender neutral. Which is really not some huge impossible obstacle if the devs allocate the time to record some lines twice.

If customization doesn't alter the game significantly for the player I think for Nintendo it wouldn't make sense to put it in there.

 

[Kieli]

How do we know him? What makes Link Link, what makes all the changes made to each reincarnation/iteration of Link acceptable if he's supposed to stay "how we know him"?

Hrmm. Perhaps there's a core Link and the devs mold around it (I know I'd say I would butt out, but I just want to leave one final word. )

But yeah, I personally would love to play a female Link more than a male Link as a newcomer to the series. Yet, I do understand where the longtime fans are coming from.

 

[The Silver]

You could easily genderbend Mario or Samus and nothing of worth would change. And no one claims that a female character couldn't be the heroine of a Zelda style adventure.

We're talking about changing/replacing the main characters of a long and etablished series. So, yeah, the hero of the Zelda series should stay Link how we know him - the same way there is no reason to change Samus.

Pokemon is a bad example because every game starts with a completly new trainer without that the new trainer does have any connection to the older trainers. You could even fight against Red in Pokemon Gold/Silver.

Yes something or worth would change, the entire damn design of the character, did you read my post? Samus in particular has been getting more and more characterization, she has a set backstory and character arc, changing her gender would have to change everything else.

And like I said the lore of their games don't allow it, Mario and Samus are the same person in their games, changing their genders would just end up with "new characters" fulfilling the same role.

Link has the benefit of being a "different person" every time he's reincarnated. It's fine if anyone "feels" like Link shouldn't change, that's not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that the very concept and design of his character easily allows him to.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Can we change the thread title to "discuss why we should change the sex of every video game character we feel like"

Maybe change it to "discuss why we shouldn't change the sex of every video game character" since that's what a large contingent of posters have been posting about so far.

I mention in the post above yours that there are a lot of people — yourself included — that perceive any posts in support of (or not against) a female Link are ordering Nintentdo to do it, or are saying that it should happen. And those people aren't reading carefully enough.

Once again nothing is stopping doctor who from being a female. Nothing besides tradition and a chance of alienating fans which producers won't take. Nintendo is probably in a similar situation

And tradition/alienating people who can't handle such an innocuous change/addition do not dictate what Nintendo must do.

Hrmm. Perhaps there's a core Link and the devs mold around it (I know I'd say I would butt out, but I just want to leave one final word. )

But yeah, I personally would love to play a female Link more than a male Link as a newcomer to the series. Yet, I do understand where the longtime fans are coming from.

And they're coming from a personal opinion, voicing a preference specific to them, not a universal truth or law.

 

[PdotMichael]

Yes something or worth would change, the entire damn design of the character, did you read my post? Samus in particular has been getting more and more characterization, she has a set backstory and character arc, changing her gender would have to change everything else.

And like I said the lore of their games don't allow it, Mario and Samus are the same person in their games, changing their genders would just end up with "new characters" fulfilling the same role.

Link has the benefit of being a "different person" every time he's reincarnated. It's fine if anyone "feels" like Link shouldn't change, that's not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that the very concept and design of his character easily allows him to.

What in Metroid or in the Mario games is affected by the fact that Samus is a woman and Mario is a man?

The reincernation in-world explenation is basically just the excuse why we're playing the same character in completly different settings.