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[cpp_is_king]

Approximately how old would you say each character in the lineup is here?

I literally have no idea. I see this image and age doesn't even cross my mind. Maybe the one with glasses is the oldest? But she could be 30 or 50, no idea. Some of them have what looks like cat ears, so I'm not even sure if they're human.

 

[CadetMahoney]

It's not like we can make threads about shitty flash based Internet sex games here......can we?

yea, I don't have a problem with it being banned.

 

[Talon]

You are telling me it is okay to generalize a whole studio from Japan as bunch of pedophiles?
Why slander and defame people like that because they create a game that he doesn't like.



So, tell me why this isn't wrong by slandering a whole group of people. He purposely wrote Japanese while there might be others working on the project ie: localization team that aren't from Japan.
And then even later admitting he would rather call them pedophiles and defame their studio even if they aren't one because the studio is making money.

Might as well /spit on the devs if you ever meet them at a video game convention.



So bish, are you going to NIS table and tell them that they are a bunch of pedophile as well?

You are a creepy person, and you will now be ignored.

 

[benjipwns]

Approximately how old would you say each character in the lineup is here?

350, 789, 1546, 887, 154, 14, 712

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

kinda off topic but I recently made a introduction thread basically praising gaf and letting the community know who I am and the thread was closed with no explanation. I carefully went over the sites tos before making my first thread and it got shut down super fast. Was kinda baffled especially since I have seen and commented in some pretty off the wall threads that are still going.

They just frown on Intro Threads because if everyone made them the forum would become filled with spam basically, no offense to you. Pretty sure we used to have a thread for new member introductions.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Liken asking posters to discuss their creepy games elsewhere to book burning brehs.

Which is just crazy.

I mean... did they think people would say "Looks compelling!"

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I literally have no idea. I see this image and age doesn't even cross my mind. Maybe the one with glasses is the oldest? But she could be 30 or 50, no idea. Some of them have what looks like cat ears, so I'm not even sure if they're human.

People tell me I'm 28 and I believe them because I don't see age.

 

[wyrdwad]

how can anyone not see the big deal with very very clearly under aged child being sexually punished, how can someone read that and think "meh, not a big deal".

Because they're not real people. They're fictional. They are creations.

And as soon as we start limiting what people can and cannot do with fictional creations, everything begins falling apart. It's policing creativity on moral grounds. But sometimes, it can be healthy and even cathartic to explore the immoral, the unethical, the illegal sides of human nature. And art is a perfectly reasonable way to do so. It's a means of exploring the darkest parts of ourselves with absolute impunity, just to see how they move us, and to find out what it tells us about who we are as human beings.

To hide from that is to hide from the realities of existence.

-Tom

 

[The Technomancer]

I see something that looks only partially human, for starters (note the ears). Secondly, anime characters in general just look young to me, even if it's obvious through plot elements that they are much older. So perhaps I've just been conditioned to not associate an age with anime characters, unless that character's age is specifically called out through the story. For example, if I saw this character walk into a 5th grade class room and attend class, and then that same character was used in one of the images depicted in the images of this game that has been going around, I would indeed be disgusted. As it stands, I just see, for lack of a better term, an "ageless something".

This is just kind of baffling to me. I almost have to think that its willful.

 

[Settin]

Not being Lionel Mandrake my thread summary was always going to be visual:

You couldn't even finish our massive 'Murican food portions, what is your opinion worth?

Spoiler

<3

 

[freenudemacusers]

this cannot be serious, and this post coupled with that icon, oh goodness

how can anyone not see the big deal with very very clearly under aged child being sexually punished, how can someone read that and think "meh, not a big deal".

i am more concerned about the projecting of sexuality on anything a child does in a game. contextually it might be something different, or as mentioned, an agreed upon judicial transaction for misconduct on part of the criminal girl.

and i believe avatar dismissals are looked down upon here.

 

[Krejlooc]

Approximately how old would you say each character in the lineup is here?

ageless aliens, of course

 

[Brakke]

OT: I never understood how "rule 34" was defined. Is there a list of the other 33 rules that came before it or is it just some made up term to define the "sexualization of everything" phenomenon?

Yes this was a thing. I'm pretty sure I knew them all in ye olde dayse ofe thee internete.

 

[Yoshi]

I mentioned it earlier but most games and most media in general attempts to contextualize violence in various ways, usually by having it be against "bad people" who are trying to actively harm the protagonist as well. And even in something like GTA where you can kill civilians its not really emphasized and there are still limits (you can't kill kids and there's a shocking lack of homeless veterans in their cities)

Whereas there's really basically no way to contextualize sexual assault in any way that makes the perpetrator look heroic. There just isn't. You can't frame it as a consequence of conflict between equals, there's intrinsically the victimhood of the person being assaulted. And even if its not explicitly pornographic yes, the stuff depicted in the Criminal Girls minigames qualifies wholeheartedly as sexual assault.

Would you call the playable characters in GTA heroes? If anything, if someone could view heavy criminals killing and toturing for their own personal gain in a game as hero, then something is seriously wrong with the depiction in said game. I don't see a difference in killing random unarmed strangers on a street and killing children or homeless people, in each of those cases you are killing someone who hasn't done you any harm, can't protect himself against you / can't fight back. Leaving out the option to also kill children then is just sanctinomious.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

It's essentialy a porn game and these are the characters:

I mean, c'mon.

It's a shame about it being so smutty, because I love the character designs to death. Not in a sexual way, you people immediately thinking that, but in a "that's cute" and "that's unique" kind of way.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I actually do too, it turns out. And I still don't view these games as sexualization of children.

Well adjusted people would call you dumb.

While I'd rather not get raped nor murdered, if I had to choose one of those two crimes against myself, I'd definitely prefer being raped.

I think it is rather strange that a game that has crude rape themes (can't be too explicit, otherwise the game would be banned, wouldn't it?), but games where you need to torture (and kill) someone (GTA5) can be discussed absolutely freely. At least where I live, murdering and toturing are the most severe crimes, so I'd expect games with these topics to be banned first.

Problem with your logical fallacy is that you're purposefully omitting that these crude rape themes as you call them are committed to clearly underage children. There is very little of discussion to be had that would even revolve around the game. The thread would be arguments of people defending the game versus those shunning it and the gamers looking forward to it. That or it would eventually be shut down by page two because most members in there can't contain their sexual excitement (which really makes it hard for anyone to vote FOR this; again I point to the Animal Crossing thread that got locked. If such an innocent game receives some very creepy posts, what hope is there for a Criminal Girls thread exactly?)

I'm sure if there was a game that tackled the subject of rape and there was a purpose behind it outside of "fuck yea, kid rape/punishment! achievement unlocked!" there could be discussion had on it. Chances are ridiculously high if such a game existed; rape/abuse/punishment wouldn't be the central and arguably only theme to the game.

Ultimately people are free to continue to use GTAV to counter the discussion of sexualization and sexual abuse of underage children to GTAV's torture and killing but it really does them no favors nor does it get anyone on their side. Doubly so when you try to compare real life to Criminal Girls and GTA but at the exact same time argue that they're just games when others counter with other real life arguments against Criminal Girls.

 

[Yuuichi]

I see something that looks only partially human, for starters (note the ears). Secondly, anime characters in general just look young to me, even if it's obvious through plot elements that they are much older. So perhaps I've just been conditioned to not associate an age with anime characters, unless that character's age is specifically called out through the story. For example, if I saw this character walk into a 5th grade class room and attend class, and then that same character was used in one of the images depicted in the images of this game that has been going around, I would indeed be disgusted. As it stands, I just see, for lack of a better term, an "ageless something".

I don't understand how kemonomimi are enough for you to view characters as non human, considering it's the only trait that appears different from a normal character. Aside from that, I'm having a hard time understanding how your opinion of the depiction of a character is based solely on arbitrary information provided by another source (in this case, the game developer), because it seems to me that your argument holds up only on arbitrary grounds. When most of us, me included, agree that the characters are dangerously underage, I'm not sure how you can justify the depictions on the basis that "well, the author said that they were 1000 years old!".

 

[Devolution]

Which is just crazy.

I mean... did they think people would say "Looks compelling!"

Or that seminal pieces of fiction/philosophy have fuck all to do with some niche game in which you slap loli ass till it turns red.

Oh right they're both "controversial" or something.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Holy shit. You're lucky you weren't banned

really how so? I have read other intro threads in the non topics section. There is a penalty towards introducing yourself in non topic?

 

[cpp_is_king]

Well adjusted people would call you dumb.

Entire countries must also be dumb then. I'm pretty sure child sexualization is illegal in Japan, and yet I don't see this game banned over there, and they have the uncensored version.

 

[Seda]

Spoiler

Dojima gives you permission to marry her when she's older.

~

I don't understand why discussion of the game should be banned if Sony is fine with it being released in the west. People who find the content questionable can just not post in the topics. I don't want to play Criminal Girls at all because the gameplay is pretty generic and I'm tired of these Vita RPGs having no battle animations but I don't want discussion to be banned.

The real problem here is that people go into these topics, call everyone a pedophile, and then leave. I think that's what needs to be banned. It doesn't even need to be a permanent one. It makes it really difficult to have discussions about niche games on GAF. If GAF is only supposed to be a place for discussing mainstream gaming that is OK. I'd just like it to be clear.

I'll point out charlequin's and steveyoungblood's posts from earlier. Those basically explain our stance and reasoing on this (and there's not much to add to that, truthfully). Also want to reiterate this is a consensus from the mod staff at large, not just a handful of us.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I don't know, like for example I'm into Kamen Rider, and pretty much every female actress in that show pretty much already had a "Gravure Shoot" or whatever out there regardless of their age it seems. One of the actresses I recall basically got written out because she was being harassed and they settled it behind the scenes (and replaced with a younger actress which is perhaps even more troublesome), although it was never straight-out confirmed that's what happened.

I just wouldn't be surprised if these games have aspiring actresses forced to moan and say creepy shit if they wanna have a chance in the industry.

For what I have read, there is still big differences between a idol job from other. Not mention that there is probably a difference between modeling in undies to soft core magazines to be a voice actor and saying lines.

Also I remember that most popular voice actors try to avoid hentai anime or games.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Because they're not real people. They're fictional. They are creations.

And as soon as we start limiting what people can and cannot do with fictional creations, everything begins falling apart. It's policing creativity on moral grounds. But sometimes, it can be healthy and even cathartic to explore the immoral, the unethical, the illegal sides of human nature. And art is a healthy, non-damaging way to do so.

-Tom

How have we not been limiting it already?

Sony wouldn't allow their game on the platform if it were outright porn, so there's already something you can't do with fictional creations. The ESRB would rate it AO, which would keep it off store shelves and they want to avoid that happening so they change their "vision" as need be - the thread that birthed this one referred to strategically-placed steam to avoid such a situation.

Why is this the line in the sand of censorship? That you can't make threads on GAF about it, why is that the yoke of oppression on all creative pursuits?

 

[The Technomancer]

Would you call the playable characters in GTA heroes? If anything, if someone could view heavy criminals killing and toturing for their own personal gain in a game as hero, then something is seriously wrong with the depiction in said game. I don't see a difference in killing random unarmed strangers on a street and killing children or homeless people, in each of those cases you are killing someone who hasn't done you any harm, can't protect himself against you / can't fight back. Leaving out the option to also kill children then is just sanctinomious.

Well this is kind of a thematic problem with GTA in general, especially in the last couple entries, where they're inconsistent in tone, alternating between "these characters are horrible and we're trying to make you feel bad about the shit they do" and "but isn't speeding over a five lane highway and mowing down a dozen bystanders so much fun!"

 

[cpp_is_king]

I don't understand how kemonomimi are enough for you to view characters as non human, considering it's the only trait that appears different from a normal character. Aside from that, I'm having a hard time understanding how your opinion of the depiction of a character is based solely on arbitrary information provided by another source (in this case, the game developer), because it seems to me that your argument holds up only on arbitrary grounds. When most of us, me included, agree that the characters are dangerously underage, I'm not sure how you can justify the depictions on the basis that "well, the author said that they were 1000 years old!".

I have no idea what the author said. Did he actually say they were 1000 years old? I haven't really been following this in great detail, I just have looked at a few of the images posted and drawn my own conclusions. Bottom line, at least for my stance, is that age of anime characters does not come across well, ever. In any anime. Unless the plot (and not the art) draws specific attention to the age (for example them having a birthday party, or being in a specific grade, etc) then I just consider them ageless.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Approximately how old would you say each character in the lineup is here?

I could see an argument for the last two given the beach-ball boobs and art-style, but the far left side ones are yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah. Admittedly surprised as fuck the more I see this is flying outside of Japan.

What's the stance on tweens/teens being into drawn porn of identically-aged characters, just since so far most of the debate about loli seem to be under the assumption the viewers are adults?

 

[freenudemacusers]

Because they're not real people. They're fictional. They are creations.

And as soon as we start limiting what people can and cannot do with fictional creations, everything begins falling apart. It's policing creativity on moral grounds. But sometimes, it can be healthy and even cathartic to explore the immoral, the unethical, the illegal sides of human nature. And art is a perfectly reasonable way to do so. It's a means of exploring the darkest parts of ourselves with absolute impunity, just to see how they move us, and to find out what it tells us about who we are as human beings.

To hide from that is to hide from the realities of existence.

-Tom

this is a good post. if you've never fantasized about punishing a criminal girl you're probably lying to yourself.

 

[Talon]

Because they're not real people. They're fictional. They are creations.

And as soon as we start limiting what people can and cannot do with fictional creations, everything begins falling apart. It's policing creativity on moral grounds. But sometimes, it can be healthy and even cathartic to explore the immoral, the unethical, the illegal sides of human nature. And art is a perfectly reasonable way to do so. It's a means of exploring the darkest parts of ourselves with absolute impunity, just to see how they move us, and to find out what it tells us about who we are as human beings.

To hide from that is to hide from the realities of existence.

-Tom

Sure. But GAF is by no means an egalitarian environment. It's a heavily-moderated walled garden.

I'm sure you can find a sub-reddit or niche forum to discuss these topics if you so desire.

Doesn't mean you have to subject the rest of us to it.

 

[Seik]

I literally have no idea. I see this image and age doesn't even cross my mind. Maybe the one with glasses is the oldest? But she could be 30 or 50, no idea. Some of them have what looks like cat ears, so I'm not even sure if they're human.

''Dude, what the hell are you playing.''

''Oh, that's Criminal Girls, it's a JRPG.''

''My god, Is that a teen girl you're spanking?!''

''Come on now, she's not even human, look *points the screen while tapping it, slapping the butt of the little non-human female thing* she have cat ears and she's 1000 years old by the way.''

''Man, JRPG have changed.''

 

[The Technomancer]

this is a good post. if you've never fantasized about punishing a criminal girl you're probably lying to yourself.

You're totally trolling right?

 

[789shadow]

this is a good post. if you've never fantasized about punishing a criminal girl you're probably lying to yourself.

Aw man, you were so believable for a few posts there.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

They just frown on Intro Threads because if everyone made them the forum would become filled with spam basically, no offense to you. Pretty sure we used to have a thread for new member introductions.

is there anywhere in the TOS policy stating no intro threads? I read the terms religously and would have searched the official thread for intros or never made one to begin with. Thanks for the info

 

[MormaPope]

Would you call the playable characters in GTA heroes? If anything, if someone could view heavy criminals killing and toturing for their own personal gain in a game as hero, then something is seriously wrong with the depiction in said game. I don't see a difference in killing random unarmed strangers on a street and killing children or homeless people, in each of those cases you are killing someone who hasn't done you any harm, can't protect himself against you / can't fight back. Leaving out the option to also kill children then is just sanctinomious.

Nope, they're apathetic sociopaths through and through. Always have, always will be.

 

[Puruzi]

Because they're not real people. They're fictional. They are creations.

This is exactly how I see it, I could care less about the game, but not banning discussion of it is weird because of this. What children look like that in real life? I seriously don't get the outrage over drawings.

 

[Krejlooc]

Entire countries must also be dumb then. I'm pretty sure child sexualization is illegal in Japan, and yet I don't see this game banned over there, and they have the uncensored version.

It's a huge stretch to equate the release of a niche piece of media with an entire nation giving it its blessing.

 

[freenudemacusers]

You're totally trolling right?

fantasize is a strong word but everyone has little flashes of desire that would otherwise be shamed in the real world that might be fun to explore in a harmless sandbox.

at least that's what i'm getting from that post i quoted, like I said, I just appreciate the work of the artists and developers, many of whom have families to support.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Or that seminal pieces of fiction/philosophy have fuck all to do with some niche game in which you slap loli ass till it turns red.

Oh right they're both "controversial" or something.

How so? Many philosofers make essays from the weirdest shit.
Not mention that some will not make the distinction between high culture and pop culture.

 

[Tapejara]

As a result of a few different industry trends, we're seeing an increasing number of games being released and localized that focus their appeal around sexualized interaction with young children, or characters who appear to be young children. A few years ago this type of content typically wouldn't be allowed by Western platform-holders at all; today it's getting published with light censorship.

Threads about these games get creepy very, very quickly. They tend to bring out discussion which is, in and of itself, bannable due to inappropriate or offensive sexual content. They frequently involve content that cannot actually be discussed or posted without breaking our NSFW rules. And even if neither of these happens, they often degenerate into angry discussions about censorship, pedophilia, or child pornography. Frankly, we don't like moderating these threads, and we don't think they reflect well on the community.

We're not trying for philosophical rigor here. Maybe lots of people enjoy GTA in ways that can defensibly be understood as being just as creepy as something like Criminal Girls. But that doesn't dominate threads about GTA, those threads don't turn into arguments about murder-philia, and they don't trigger the same kind of fundamental revulsion. So we're not saying these games can't exist or even that people can't enjoy them. We just don't want them /here/.

We're not going to draw an absolute sharp boundary on this. We just want to make it clear going forward that games which focus on the sexualization of children are not appropriate for our community. Criminal Girls is out. Games that include creepy elements as one small part are okay -- Fire Emblem isn't inappropriate to discuss even though we don't want long thread derails about its more unpleasant fanservice elements.

Let me start by stating that everyone has their own individual set of values, and we do understand that. Our goal with the policy going forward is not necessarily to single out any group of fans as outright reprehensible people for liking video games, particularly not games that are released legally and rated by the ESRB. Further, there are valid arguments to consider in terms of why other morally dubious content seemingly gets a pass.

Having said that, though, I want to also state that the consensus on the moderation team here is that -- fair or not -- we really have next to no desire to have games that feature sexual content starring characters that either are or appear to be underrage given a platform here. We have even less desire (i.e. none) to actually have to read and moderate these threads. As such, these threads will often go unmoderated.

This is a problem. It's a problem for everyone. It's a problem for fans of the game that actually want to talk about the game and aren't necessarily there just to oogle questionable artwork. It's a problem when imagery gets posted that goes beyond what we consider in good taste and we aren't there to react. It's a problem for us in that we get complaints from people on either side of the issue and feel a sense of responsibility to react, but don't really know what to do. Do we go in to promote civility in the conversation, or do we go in to crack down on what we deem to be inappropriate sexual content that features characters that appear to be minors? I think by and large, several (perhaps most) just opt out of doing anything because we simply want no part of the conversation. Frankly, the less I personally know about Monster Monpiece or Criminal Girls, the better.

But that's not appropriate as an official policy. It's confusing for you, and it's even confusing for us. So the consensus we've reached in regards to these games that prominently feature underage girl fan-service is to simply not give them a platform here. That's not to say that we all out and out condemn the very existence of these products and the fans that would play and want to talk about them. But we just honestly feel that there is no place for it here.

As always, if you have questions about a particular game, or a facet of the conversation that you are unclear of, you are more than welcome to PM moderation with your comments and concerns.

I'm like, twenty pages late, but I wanted to say thanks for posting your reasoning. I don't have a problem with Criminal Girls - though I do think the "fanservice" is quite unsettling. I just appreciate that we got a definite answer.

 

[Jinfash]

kinda off topic but I recently made a introduction thread basically praising gaf and letting the community know who I am and the thread was closed with no explanation. I carefully went over the sites tos before making my first thread and it got shut down super fast. Was kinda baffled especially since I have seen and commented in some pretty off the wall threads that are still going.

It seems to me you love attention. We don't take too kindly to people who love attention.

 

[Almisael]

It's essentialy a porn game and these are the characters:

I mean, c'mon.

I'm more offended by the art style. They look pudgy and gross.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

this is a good post. if you've never fantasized about punishing a criminal girl you're probably lying to yourself.

what about fantasizing about being the criminal girl

 

[Settin]

I'll point out charlequin's and steveyoungblood's posts from earlier. Those basically explain our stance and reasoing on this (and there's not much to add to that, truthfully). Also want to reiterate this is a consensus from the mod staff at large, not just a handful of us.

Ok. All we ask is that the rules be clear. Apparently random locks anonymously via modbot are unsettling to the average poster. If the mods agree that there is a line, then please tell us. We're more in the dark than you are.

 

[Yuuichi]

OT: I never understood how "rule 34" was defined. Is there a list of the other 33 rules that came before it or is it just some made up term to define the "sexualization of everything" phenomenon?

It's based off an old joke image regarding 4chan, which you can view here (sfw, just text)

I have no idea what the author said. Did he actually say they were 1000 years old? I haven't really been following this in great detail, I just have looked at a few of the images posted and drawn my own conclusions. Bottom line, at least for my stance, is that age of anime characters does not come across well, ever. In any anime. Unless the plot (and not the art) draws specific attention to the age (for example them having a birthday party, or being in a specific grade, etc) then I just consider them ageless.

My point was that your argument is incredibly flimsy because it relies not on the depiction itself, but on arbitrary information you're presented about the depiction.

 

[Crayons]

fantasize is a strong word but everyone has little flashes of desire that would otherwise be shamed in the real world that might be fun to explore in a harmless sandbox.

at least that's what i'm getting from that post i quoted, like I said, I just appreciate the work of the artists and developers, many of whom have families to support.

Maybe one day you'll be able to troll yourself into believing that you have a good sense of fashion

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

It seems to me you love attention. We don't take too kindly to people who love attention.

I see back into my rat hole I go lol.

 

[213372bu]

]And as soon as we start limiting what people can and cannot do with fictional creations, everything begins falling apart.

But we're not, we're talking about why you can't make a thread in which you sexually abuse little girls.

It's a means of exploring the darkest parts of ourselves with absolute impunity, just to see how they move us, and to find out what it tells us about who we are as human beings.

Not only do you explore and find those disgusting harmful impurities, but you also indulge yourself in it rather than finding help on what is possibly illegal depending on where you are located.

To hide from that is to hide from the realities of existence.

Hiding != the fact that you get off to sexually abused animu girls being punished for their crimes is wrong and that you should seek help for your problem.

Also... criticizing the horrible/damaging people, which you are infact implicating, getting off to little anime girls getting sexually abused is hiding the realities of existence?

I'm literally shaking.

 

[The Silver]

Because they're not real people. They're fictional. They are creations.

And as soon as we start limiting what people can and cannot do with fictional creations, everything begins falling apart. It's policing creativity on moral grounds. But sometimes, it can be healthy and even cathartic to explore the immoral, the unethical, the illegal sides of human nature. And art is a perfectly reasonable way to do so. It's a means of exploring the darkest parts of ourselves with absolute impunity, just to see how they move us, and to find out what it tells us about who we are as human beings.

To hide from that is to hide from the realities of existence.

-Tom

and you can do that without sexualizing children for people to oogle over and fulfill some fetish

The Shield, SVU, South Park, etc etc, has dealt the child rape and sexuality and im fine with it, tons of media have children being torturted and killed and so on but with the tact of not fetishizing it to please some group of people, that's where I draw the line.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I'm more offended by the art style. They look pudgy and gross.

so "Anime: The Game!" basically

 

[cpp_is_king]

I guess I actually am in the minority. I'm mostly just intrigued by the fact that I apparently hold the same moral positions as many of the people in this thread, but am completely the opposite on this specific game. Like if anyone is a redditor, and remembers that guy violentacrez, I wanted almost every single subreddit that guy modded to be banned, as well as the user. I still want all that shit on reddit to be banned. And I want child abuse to be illegal and pedophiles to be arrested and/or get treated.

And yet still, when I look at this game, I don't see it.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

 

[The Technomancer]

I see back into my rat hole I go lol.

Nah I think the real answer is just that we're so active that intro threads for all new members would clog things up pretty quickly. You're right that I don't think its mentioned in the TOS though