As another thing to consider, someone who wants to post a game with questionable subject matter could try to be proactive about keeping the topic on track. Specifically, they could make a note in the OP to clarify what the thread is supposed to be about. Not sure if that will work, but it's an idea.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Will discussion of certain games be banned on Neogaf from here on out?
- Thread starter El Sloth
- Start date
- Status
I got into a discussion about the 3DS with someone, I think it was. I forgot what specifically that person said, it was something really outrageous (something like some Dragon Quest 3DS game looked better than Uncharted 2), and I said something (paraphrasing here) to the effect that they were either blind or a liar. That person responded I ALWAYS call people liars when I disagree with them, and I said that's bullshit. But then I recalled I had said it once or twice before, and I went back to edited those occasions out to hide that I did - my pride getting in the way of my sense, in other words.
Thus I rightfully was demodded.
The Crushed ban was one of the worst I've seen. After that you kind of went off the deep end and I stopped liking your moderations/contributions to threads. I like you again now though
I didn't perma Crushed! People still don't realize that!
Me especially
I'm not condoning these sort of niche games but rather than punish and lock the threads who report news for games that communities have interest in, we should punish those who escalate the situation and contribute nothing other than the locking of such threads.
It goes both ways for VNs and outrageously violent games and it should be up to the mod's discretion whether or not such a comment derails a thread.
For example, a member should be held accountable for posting something that does not adhere to a news thread. If someone were to say this is going to be locked because of a difference of opinions, they're not really responding to the news at hand and are unnecessarily escalating the situation. Basically anything that doesn't add to the OT's news should be warned or moderated.
Grand Theft Auto is grotesque in how it handles violence, sex, and several other issues. Should we ban all GTA threads as well?
I think that in a strictly news thread, people from said community or people interested in said game should be able to discuss about the news on hand. If it were a subjective thread such as Best (Fe)Male character or Favorite Fan Art, then there is merit in locking the thread.
News threads should be completely objective and on hand in the topic and if someone wants to derail it, they can do so in Community. If you wanna be snarky and talk shit about other's tastes, there are PMs, other threads, and other means of communication for that. Things like that have no place in a news thread where people SHOULD be solely discussing the news on hand.
It goes both ways for VNs and outrageously violent games and it should be up to the mod's discretion whether or not such a comment derails a thread.
For example, a member should be held accountable for posting something that does not adhere to a news thread. If someone were to say this is going to be locked because of a difference of opinions, they're not really responding to the news at hand and are unnecessarily escalating the situation. Basically anything that doesn't add to the OT's news should be warned or moderated.
Grand Theft Auto is grotesque in how it handles violence, sex, and several other issues. Should we ban all GTA threads as well?
I think that in a strictly news thread, people from said community or people interested in said game should be able to discuss about the news on hand. If it were a subjective thread such as Best (Fe)Male character or Favorite Fan Art, then there is merit in locking the thread.
News threads should be completely objective and on hand in the topic and if someone wants to derail it, they can do so in Community. If you wanna be snarky and talk shit about other's tastes, there are PMs, other threads, and other means of communication for that. Things like that have no place in a news thread where people SHOULD be solely discussing the news on hand.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
Game seems weird but man, I feel bad for the people bringing it over. Having your game essentially be cast out for discussion here must be a real kick in the ass.
I'm not talking about sex, specifically.
You know what I'm talking about, don't play dumb with me, please.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Salt the earth, and leave simulated kiddie porn apologists with nowhere to take root imo
Edit: and WTF, Crushed is a mod now. Isn't that enough for you people?
charlequin
Banned
As a result of a few different industry trends, we're seeing an increasing number of games being released and localized that focus their appeal around sexualized interaction with young children, or characters who appear to be young children. A few years ago this type of content typically wouldn't be allowed by Western platform-holders at all; today it's getting published with light censorship.
Threads about these games get creepy very, very quickly. They tend to bring out discussion which is, in and of itself, bannable due to inappropriate or offensive sexual content. They frequently involve content that cannot actually be discussed or posted without breaking our NSFW rules. And even if neither of these happens, they often degenerate into angry discussions about censorship, pedophilia, or child pornography. Frankly, we don't like moderating these threads, and we don't think they reflect well on the community.
We're not trying for philosophical rigor here. Maybe lots of people enjoy GTA in ways that can defensibly be understood as being just as creepy as something like Criminal Girls. But that doesn't dominate threads about GTA, those threads don't turn into arguments about murder-philia, and they don't trigger the same kind of fundamental revulsion. So we're not saying these games can't exist or even that people can't enjoy them. We just don't want them /here/.
We're not going to draw an absolute sharp boundary on this. We just want to make it clear going forward that games which focus on the sexualization of children are not appropriate for our community. Criminal Girls is out. Games that include creepy elements as one small part are okay -- Fire Emblem isn't inappropriate to discuss even though we don't want long thread derails about its more unpleasant fanservice elements.
Threads about these games get creepy very, very quickly. They tend to bring out discussion which is, in and of itself, bannable due to inappropriate or offensive sexual content. They frequently involve content that cannot actually be discussed or posted without breaking our NSFW rules. And even if neither of these happens, they often degenerate into angry discussions about censorship, pedophilia, or child pornography. Frankly, we don't like moderating these threads, and we don't think they reflect well on the community.
We're not trying for philosophical rigor here. Maybe lots of people enjoy GTA in ways that can defensibly be understood as being just as creepy as something like Criminal Girls. But that doesn't dominate threads about GTA, those threads don't turn into arguments about murder-philia, and they don't trigger the same kind of fundamental revulsion. So we're not saying these games can't exist or even that people can't enjoy them. We just don't want them /here/.
We're not going to draw an absolute sharp boundary on this. We just want to make it clear going forward that games which focus on the sexualization of children are not appropriate for our community. Criminal Girls is out. Games that include creepy elements as one small part are okay -- Fire Emblem isn't inappropriate to discuss even though we don't want long thread derails about its more unpleasant fanservice elements.
I understand that, but I think what people in this thread seem to be taking issue with is where to draw the line, considering certain games and anime with similar content are allowed but this game isn't.
It would be nice to have concrete rules, but I guess "you'll know when the thread is locked" is all we'll get. Honestly I don't really care about this game but the ruling here is a bit confusing for me. Oh well.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Let me start by stating that everyone has their own individual set of values, and we do understand that. Our goal with the policy going forward is not necessarily to single out any group of fans as outright reprehensible people for liking video games, particularly not games that are released legally and rated by the ESRB. Further, there are valid arguments to consider in terms of why other morally dubious content seemingly gets a pass.
Having said that, though, I want to also state that the consensus on the moderation team here is that -- fair or not -- we really have next to no desire to have games that feature sexual content starring characters that either are or appear to be underrage given a platform here. We have even less desire (i.e. none) to actually have to read and moderate these threads. As such, these threads will often go unmoderated.
This is a problem. It's a problem for everyone. It's a problem for fans of the game that actually want to talk about the game and aren't necessarily there just to oogle questionable artwork. It's a problem when imagery gets posted that goes beyond what we consider in good taste and we aren't there to react. It's a problem for us in that we get complaints from people on either side of the issue and feel a sense of responsibility to react, but don't really know what to do. Do we go in to promote civility in the conversation, or do we go in to crack down on what we deem to be inappropriate sexual content that features characters that appear to be minors? I think by and large, several (perhaps most) just opt out of doing anything because we simply want no part of the conversation. Frankly, the less I personally know about Monster Monpiece or Criminal Girls, the better.
But that's not appropriate as an official policy. It's confusing for you, and it's even confusing for us. So the consensus we've reached in regards to these games that prominently feature underage girl fan-service is to simply not give them a platform here. That's not to say that we all out and out condemn the very existence of these products and the fans that would play and want to talk about them. But we just honestly feel that there is no place for it here.
As always, if you have questions about a particular game, or a facet of the conversation that you are unclear of, you are more than welcome to PM moderation with your comments and concerns.
Having said that, though, I want to also state that the consensus on the moderation team here is that -- fair or not -- we really have next to no desire to have games that feature sexual content starring characters that either are or appear to be underrage given a platform here. We have even less desire (i.e. none) to actually have to read and moderate these threads. As such, these threads will often go unmoderated.
This is a problem. It's a problem for everyone. It's a problem for fans of the game that actually want to talk about the game and aren't necessarily there just to oogle questionable artwork. It's a problem when imagery gets posted that goes beyond what we consider in good taste and we aren't there to react. It's a problem for us in that we get complaints from people on either side of the issue and feel a sense of responsibility to react, but don't really know what to do. Do we go in to promote civility in the conversation, or do we go in to crack down on what we deem to be inappropriate sexual content that features characters that appear to be minors? I think by and large, several (perhaps most) just opt out of doing anything because we simply want no part of the conversation. Frankly, the less I personally know about Monster Monpiece or Criminal Girls, the better.
But that's not appropriate as an official policy. It's confusing for you, and it's even confusing for us. So the consensus we've reached in regards to these games that prominently feature underage girl fan-service is to simply not give them a platform here. That's not to say that we all out and out condemn the very existence of these products and the fans that would play and want to talk about them. But we just honestly feel that there is no place for it here.
As always, if you have questions about a particular game, or a facet of the conversation that you are unclear of, you are more than welcome to PM moderation with your comments and concerns.
1000 years old, I heard. Which means I should probably get that thread reopened.
You assume that this is an appropriate forum for discussing new news on games that involve the sexualization of little kids.
Nope.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I am going to point out again that this argument, as good as it might make you feel to point out, is not as cogent as you believe it to be.
Sakura
Member
So is it just the punishment then? Is it ok to talk about games that have sexually suggestive scenes of visibly underage girls as long as they aren't being punished? Just trying to understand so I know for future games ^_^
Wow...WOW!
Even on a 27in screen, I need mine screen to be small as possible to avoid seeing the pixel in the text.
Anyway to the topic at hands...I never understand why it is okay for other posters to go into these threads like Criminal Girls, and purposely pretend to have a just moral and what is right/wrong when they are bunch of hypocrites that play murder simulator games.
Nothing should be censored, gore and blood are fine, and sexual contents are fine as well.
We have that right to either pick up these type of games as a consumer, or walk away from these games.
Why do other people think they have the right to tell others what is morally wrong/right, and what needs to be censored?
It's cool. I admit I am just a little frustrated as being painted as public enemy ex-mod number one... we've had some pretty abusive mods in the past
Oh yeah, I don't want to take it away from you. I was NOT a good fit for mod. I was a bad mod, because a mod has to be able to curate discussions and lead people to good places. Stumpokapow is a great mod; Opiate is a great mod. Me, I wanted to jump into every battle and argue with every person, and my newfound status as a mod just gave me even more attention for my opinions, and since I love sharing my opinions... it was a bad fit. I should have been more self-aware about it earlier and removed myself from being a mod years before I ever edited that damned post. My pride sometimes gets the best of me
I dont think being opinionated is a problem with a mod, thinking anyone who disagree's with that mod, to be viable to be moderated is when it becomes a problem problem. You having strong opinions, imo, does not a bad mod make, it only becomes a problem when you start modding people based on a personal viewpoint, not backed up by the rules of the forum, created by the admin.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Perhaps some strict rules in the OP or even title of OTs for games that do have objectionable content?
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
The card game that is 99% of Monster Monpiece is actually a lot of fun.
It's always come down to "I know it when I see it." This forum is under moderator digression.
I'll take your word for it because I haven't played GTAV and I have actually heard that Trevor is disturbing and some of his content is questionable. I do see where you're coming from, and I do tend to agree that we need to look at the issue of uncontextualised violence in games, and that it can be harmful.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Is it possible for you to have discussions without you posting sarcastic quips? I have a tendency to agree with you on a lot of topics in OT, but this is tiring. You're not even contributing here.
I know that the murder references are getting tiring as well, but it's concerning to me that we have some forms of completely objectionable content here from a "moral" standpoint lauded and praised, and some that are villified. It's not okay to call someone a pedophile because they want to play Criminal Girls, and I'm not okay with the idea that it can't be discussed here by people who would like to do so.
How about discussion of wanting other members of gaf to be murdered, like the above post?
cpp_is_king
Member
If the game isn't banned, then discussion of the game shouldn't be banned. That simple.
I'm sure the cast of Criminal Girls can be handily "localized" as 18 or whatever the age of consent is in your territory of choice. But let's be real -- they look like kids. Kids with giant titties, in some cases, but still kids.
What will be really interesting is when a game inevitably comes along that features good gameplay, good design, and a mature story -- but also has sequences where you brutally rape someone in graphic detail. A game where someone could find the rape titillating (someone perverse, mind you), but the game itself can't be accused of otaku pandering or fan service or whatever. It's been easy to dismiss these perverted games so far because their perverse acts are all they have, but what if such sequences were bound up in something more? Will a different standard apply?
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Doesn't make me upset.
In my opinion the main creative heads behind such games (I'll give a pass to some of the lower rank members, they're probably basically forced to do it to keep a job) are undoubtedly pedophiles. There's no doubt in my mind. Having them lose money doesn't bother me at all.
Sakura
Member
You literally said 'fucking underage girls'. If that is not talking about sex then I am sorry but I do not understand.
Exactly. I don't understand why it isn't clear. I haven't played a GTA game in some time, but I'm sure there's no children walking around to be killed for the fun of it.
For these discussions, would a mod confirm what you guys are cutting down on it as well? Just wondering since I brought up Bullet Girls as potentially ban worthy earlier.
People who like these games have to play dumb. "You don't have actual sex," "That thong is optional content," and the like are their defenses because how could they honestly defend these things besides arguing they find them stimulating or aesthetically pleasing?
Oh, I fucked up, my bad there.
I said 'fucking' as a swear, not the actual action, because I'm getting quite emotional with this kind of subjects.
Artificial Academy 2 is a straight-up porn game as deep as The Sims 2: University with plenty of interesting stories randomly happening through NPC interaction, and there's many funny stuff can be shared and discussed without mentioning the porn part.
Devolution
Member
Maybe there's a moral quandary when it comes to sexualized depictions of children for you and some others but I don't think that makes it so.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Even if every single person was okay with the conversation about the games it would still be up to the moderation to decide if the thread is allowed.
I personally think eliminating all avenues of sexual expression for deviant sexual philias could be potentially more harmful than allowing certain ways of expression to exist, but that means nothing in context of moderation standards. Those are set by those in charge. Very simple.
Hours Left
Member
Also, in regards to other games, ones that features adult characters, but still contain sexually themed content, part of the reason I would like to be able to (appropriately) discuss them on GAF is because of the moderation.
One thing I love about GAF is that minority/underrepresented gamers are free to be ourselves here. You can talk about thinking a male video game character is hot without being called a homophobic slur, wanting more female representation without being called a "feminazi", wanting more racial equality in games without being labled a "social justice warrior", etc. If anyone pulls that crap, they get the boot, and I want it to stay that way.
It's easy for people to say to go to another forum, but most other forums that would allow discussion of an adult game have little to no moderation, and you are constantly subjected to ridicule for not falling in line with the "core" demographic. I come to GAF to have fun while taking about games and other stuff, not to tiptoe around who I am, and what my tastes are.
If people are able to properly and maturely discuss a game with adult content (featuring adult character), while not breaking any rules, I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed. I just wish we could get some clarification on this.
One thing I love about GAF is that minority/underrepresented gamers are free to be ourselves here. You can talk about thinking a male video game character is hot without being called a homophobic slur, wanting more female representation without being called a "feminazi", wanting more racial equality in games without being labled a "social justice warrior", etc. If anyone pulls that crap, they get the boot, and I want it to stay that way.
It's easy for people to say to go to another forum, but most other forums that would allow discussion of an adult game have little to no moderation, and you are constantly subjected to ridicule for not falling in line with the "core" demographic. I come to GAF to have fun while taking about games and other stuff, not to tiptoe around who I am, and what my tastes are.
If people are able to properly and maturely discuss a game with adult content (featuring adult character), while not breaking any rules, I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed. I just wish we could get some clarification on this.
ShockingAlberto
Member
And this post is a pretty good example of why discretion and intelligence are important factors in decision-making.
Alright, so clearly it's the underage sexualization and not just the punishment. A lot more titles just got the "no" to discussion on GAF, I guess.
Thank you Steve. Your post was informative and genuinely makes sense. Bish should take notes.
aspiegamer
Member
Fair enough. Perhaps this game gets some extra ire because it combines the worst of both (...many?) worlds when it comes to controversial content. A combination of every "only a freak would play this" stereotype in the industry.
rip icecream threads
NoirVisage
Banned
Are you being coy? If Opiship made a moderation and posted his reasoning before closing a topic, we know it was Opiship and if we have reservations or concerns we can take it up with him directly or mention his actions to Evilore, especiallly if there was a trend from that mod, bearing in mind people notice unfair moderation's and believe it or not sometimes they get overturned..
but if modbot makes a post and closes a thread..deal with it, there's no accountability there.
RIP
Vita
No I understand, but what I'm saying is if that was the reason then why open yourself up to accountability at -any- time? If you're going to close a thread then it seems like you'd be doing it via modbot each time, just in case.
Off-Kilter
Banned
Er, I'm fairly certain he meant fucking as in the descriptor (e.g. that's fucking silly) and not the verb.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I really don't want to GIS this, but I'm pretty sure the official Facebook for that game bragged about how you could rape the girls.
Wow...
Again...This is blowing my mind on how society works sometime.
IT IS NOT OKAY to call someone a racial slur, but IT IS OKAY to call someone a pedophile?
Amazing!
Simply amazing.
If you didn't clearly understand the tone and tenor of my previous posts, I can't help you.
In regards to the other poster asking about Bullet Girls, I'll take a look at it and get back to you via PM.
If you're getting off on the fetishization of young children experiencing corporal punishment in a sexual manner? If the shoe fits.
Kudos to you two for actually taking the time to explain the thought process here rather than dismissing people asking legitimate questions. I think your logic is sound.
Dragonborn
Member
I don't like censorship, but the mods can do whatever they want. I believe that's in GAF's rules, basically, like it or leave, so if this is the stance the site has taken, I'm perfectly fine with it since being a member means accepting the TOS. With that I don't personally find this game any worse than what's basically all murder, theft, and worse (Ex. GTA) or games that straight up feature sex scenes, but hey, that's just me.
But honestly, is it really that bad that it's disallowed? Every single thread always devolves into the same argument, I still don't have any idea what the game's even about, and I don't think I want to google it.
But honestly, is it really that bad that it's disallowed? Every single thread always devolves into the same argument, I still don't have any idea what the game's even about, and I don't think I want to google it.
I'm not defending this certain game at all, I just think that we should punish those who derail and add nothing to the thread rather than the thread itself and the people who want to discuss said game.
In GTA there is a torture scene where Trevor does it for fun. There are also scenes where he verbally and physically abuses a woman while having anal sex with her.
Grand Theft Auto, 5 especially, can cross the lines of what is right or wrong especially with the freedom that you have in the open world.
Regardless of that point, I believe that news threads and community threads are fine. We should punish those who derail the thread into something it's not and it's under a mod's discretion whether or not the post is "offensive" or "off topic".
Derailing said thread into one about something like child abuse, sexual or physical, or any other sensitive issue which hold no ground or place over the topic of the thread should be punishable via a mod's discretion.
Chance Hale
Member
It's not a porn but in the trailer you see a girl who appears to be 10-12 with legs outstretched and labia showing while you rub/smack hurt which is pretty disturbing. Still kind of nasty to have discussion of it banned given it got an ERSB rating.
Edit: Just saw the quoted mod explanations.
- Status