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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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K

Khaz

Member
Comparing RF and RGB is deceptive as fuck too. Of course RGB is going to look better, you don't need your little box for that!

gamesradar said:
But it's a real Mega Drive finally being displayed properly on an HD TV.
Click to expand...

Lol. in widescreen, with distorted upscaled pixels. So properly displayed.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Anyone who claims that an incorrect aspect ratio picture is "displayed properly" has automatically invalidated anything they have to say on that subject.
 
T

The Mageling

Member
Timu said:
I do...don't buy it, lol, I took mine back for something much better.
Click to expand...

If I don't care too much about the video quality going through it, would it do the job? I know that seems like a weird question to ask in this thread, but I can explain. I don't have an RGB compatible capture card (I use the HD PVR 2), and I care far more about what I see over what the captured video looks like. Lag is especially not important, as there's already massive lag over USB. My plan is to create a large daisy chain of SNES to monitor via SCART, and then SCART-to-component (or HDMI) to capture card.
 
P

Peagles

Member
Khaz said:
Comparing RF and RGB is deceptive as fuck too. Of course RGB is going to look better, you don't need your little box for that!



Lol. in widescreen, with distorted upscaled pixels. So properly displayed.
Click to expand...

Bolded was my initial thought when reading that page, what the hell? Lol.
 
C

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
dock said:
Does anyone have experience with the cheapo HD upscaler found here?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0092IAA3I/

It's mentioned here on GamesRadar, and looks to be doing a nice job for the price.
http://www.gamesradar.com/how-to-make-retro-games-look-incredible-on-your-hdtv/
Click to expand...

I do, and it sucks. Lots of motion blur, it just sucks, don't waste your money. The only upscaler I would recommend is the "XRGB Mini Framemeister", if you can afford it.

I currently run a scart cable from SNES to scart/component converter into a Trinitron for amazing pic quality, its the next best thing.
 
K

Khaz

Member
The Mageling said:
If I don't care too much about the video quality going through it, would it do the job? I know that seems like a weird question to ask in this thread, but I can explain. I don't have an RGB compatible capture card (I use the HD PVR 2), and I care far more about what I see over what the captured video looks like. Lag is especially not important, as there's already massive lag over USB. My plan is to create a large daisy chain of SNES to monitor via SCART, and then SCART-to-component (or HDMI) to capture card.
Click to expand...

I have sincerely no idea of what you're trying to achieve.
I suspect you don't either.
 
T

The Mageling

Member
Khaz said:
I have sincerely no idea of what you're trying to achieve.
I suspect you don't either.
Click to expand...

I want to run a game console on a PVM with RGB and still capture from it with a capture card that doesn't support RGB. How else could I do it?

EDIT: In the interim I'm gonna use s-video, but I'd like to be able to take full advantage of RGB if possible.
 
K

Khaz

Member
Ok, you have a TV/PVM as a display, and you want to capture on your computer at the same time. this is more clear. I thought you wanted to play your games on your computer screen, through your Desktop environment, regardless of lag and picture quality. This felt crazy.

If you don't really care about the picture quality of your captured flux, I'd say go for it. You will need to somehow double your Scart though, do you have something for that?
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Khaz said:
Ok, you have a TV/PVM as a display, and you want to capture on your computer at the same time. this is more clear. I thought you wanted to play your games on your computer screen, through your Desktop environment, regardless of lag and picture quality. This felt crazy.

If you don't really care about the picture quality of your captured flux, I'd say go for it. You will need to somehow double your Scart though, do you have something for that?
Click to expand...

All PVMs have passthrough outputs.

They're studio monitors after all, using them as visualizers for recordings is pretty much their intended purpose to begin with!
 
T

The Mageling

Member
Khaz said:
You will need to somehow double your Scart though, do you have something for that?
Click to expand...

This is actually the part I'm having the most trouble with in my head. Most adapters I see that do RGB are SCART to HDMI (or component). So I'm going to have to run BNC-to-RCA from the passthrough into an adapter to SCART, which I'll then plug into the SCART to HDMI... My head hurts. I'm probably way over-thinking this.
 
O

Ocaso

Member
Khaz said:
Comparing RF and RGB is deceptive as fuck too. Of course RGB is going to look better, you don't need your little box for that!
Click to expand...

You actually might. I'm currently in the group that would like to get a better picture from my boxes, but the best my TV can accept is composite. No SCART or S Video inputs on my set. In the case of my Genesis, composite is an improvement over RF, but it still looks terrible. My TVs upscaler does it no favors as it is clearly not treating the signal as 240p and attempting deinterlacing which results in known artifacts. In such a case, just being able to hook up the Genesis via SCART is going to improve image quality, even if the scaler itself is not as good as a Framemeister.
 
D

dock

Member
Thanks for the many warnings against that HD Upscaler box. I'll steer clear!

Unfortunately the XRGB Mini remains firmly outside of my price justification range. It's only the Sega Saturn and PC Engine that needs it.

Timu said:
I do...don't buy it, lol, I took mine back for something much better.
Click to expand...
What did you get instead?
 
T

Timu

Member
dock said:
What did you get instead?
Click to expand...
517NUdr5eEL._SY355_.jpg

Works perfectly without altering the image quality as it simply transcodes which is great.
 
D

dock

Member
Timu said:
517NUdr5eEL._SY355_.jpg

Works perfectly without altering the image quality as it simply transcodes which is great.
Click to expand...
Which consoles do you have hooked up to that?
My PS2 looks great via component, but PS2 outputs 480i rather than 240p like the Saturn and PC Engine.
 
Y

Yes Boss!

Member
sixteen-bit said:
That's not really true. A component signal by definition cannot carry the same color information as RGB SCART. There is a downgrade in image quality.
Click to expand...

Is it actually seeable on off-the-shelf commercial CRTs, though? I do tend to like component better on Wii/VC than say the same game on a SFC with RGB/PVM for whatever reason. Seems softer to me and more pleasing.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Yes Boss! said:
Is it actually seeable on off-the-shelf commercial CRTs, though? I do tend to like component better on Wii/VC than say the same game on a SFC with RGB/PVM for whatever reason. Seems softer to me and more pleasing.
Click to expand...

That would be an apples to oranges comparison since the hardware you're playing the games on is different. If you have an RGB capable Wii (i.e. PAL, since North American and JP Wii's don't do RGB) a direct comparison between Component and RGB on the same hardware would make more sense.
 
T

Timu

Member
dock said:
Which consoles do you have hooked up to that?
My PS2 looks great via component, but PS2 outputs 480i rather than 240p like the Saturn and PC Engine.
Click to expand...
SNES and Sega Saturn so far.

sixteen-bit said:
That's not really true. A component signal by definition cannot carry the same color information as RGB SCART. There is a downgrade in image quality.
Click to expand...
That's true, but the quality drop doesn't seem so bad from what I've seen.
 
O

Ocaso

Member
Timu said:
517NUdr5eEL._SY355_.jpg

Works perfectly without altering the image quality as it simply transcodes which is great.
Click to expand...

Problem with that is that it leaves the scaling job to your TV. If your TVs scaler sucks, your image, though improved compared to composite or RF, will still suffer, perhaps even more than with an external scaler.

There really should be some resource that compares more of these cheap upscalers since I refuse to believe all are shit. The HDBoxPro and its clones were, at least, acceptable cheap alternatives for some people.
 
T

Timu

Member
Ocaso said:
Problem with that is that it leaves the scaling job to your TV. If your TVs scaler sucks, your image, though improved compared to composite or RF, will still suffer, perhaps even more than with an external scaler.

There really should be some resource that compares more of these cheap upscalers since I refuse to believe all are shit. The HDBoxPro and its clones were, at least, acceptable cheap alternatives for some people.
Click to expand...
Yes that is true for that, but since I don't game on TVs anymore(only through a capture card on my main PC) I don't have to worry about that stuff.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
MightyHedgehog said:
With such low-color depth in most 8- and 16-bit games consoles, would that cutting off of color information really be noticeable, though?
Click to expand...
In practical terms, I don't think it would be a big deal unless the TV in question is just flat-out better at handling one format over the other.

Ocaso said:
There really should be some resource that compares more of these cheap upscalers since I refuse to believe all are shit. The HDBoxPro and its clones were, at least, acceptable cheap alternatives for some people.
Click to expand...
I'd volunteer to run capture tests w/ the 240p suite on every supported platform if people felt like letting me borrow some cheap converters to test and pay the shipping prices for it. I feel that some kind of community effort like that would really be useful, no matter who would end up doing it. Fudoh's site is great but one thing it lacks is test video recordings, and that's where most of the deinterlacing issues in various units are the most obvious.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
dock said:
Which consoles do you have hooked up to that?
My PS2 looks great via component, but PS2 outputs 480i rather than 240p like the Saturn and PC Engine.
Click to expand...

The PS2 does support 240p, but you'll mostly see it only in PS1 games, as very few PS2 games supported 240p.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
antibolo said:
The PS2 does support 240p, but you'll mostly see it only in PS1 games, as very few PS2 games supported 240p.
Click to expand...

Yeah. The M2 stuff for Sega Ages, Arika's Cave ports, and Ico are the only PS2 games I can think of off the top of my head that are 240p. I'm sure there are more though.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
EasyMode said:
I have the MMX collection. It's 240p in game, and 480i in menu. The resolution switching is pretty annoying on a Framemeister.

Not sure about the original MM collection though.
Click to expand...

It is? I'll admit I did not try starting up a game. Good to know.

But as for the Mega Man Anniversary Collection (vanilla Mega Man 1-8 and the CPS-2 boss rush games), I have tried it and can confirm that it's 480i in the games as well.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
^lookin good! speaking of, here's what i should be picking up next week from a friend:

VV6bRNE.jpg
Click to expand...

condition looks great, anyone know which model trinotron i'm looking at? gonna visit gunsmith soon to learn about component to SCART RGB adapters. gonna hate tossing this into my closet, might have to move some stuff around...
 
K

Khaz

Member
IrishNinja said:
condition looks great, anyone know which model trinotron i'm looking at? gonna visit gunsmith soon to learn about component to SCART RGB adapters. gonna hate tossing this into my closet, might have to move some stuff around...
Click to expand...

Very nice! I wouldn't store anything under the TV for the next few weeks, just in case your shelf isn't strong enough ^^

Do you have any lightgun games? I'm wondering if they would work with a RGB to Component transcoder. If the thing doesn't add lag then it should, but you never know.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Khaz said:
Do you have any lightgun games? I'm wondering if they would work with a RGB to Component transcoder. If the thing doesn't add lag then it should, but you never know.
Click to expand...

ah, hadn't even thought about the transcoder introducing lag...i should ask sixfour about this!
 
G

Gunsmithx

Member
Khaz said:
Very nice! I wouldn't store anything under the TV for the next few weeks, just in case your shelf isn't strong enough ^^

Do you have any lightgun games? I'm wondering if they would work with a RGB to Component transcoder. If the thing doesn't add lag then it should, but you never know.
Click to expand...


You know I have some lightgun stuff and that transcoder and I've never tried it... something to do this weekend between football and schoolwork.
 
K

Khaz

Member
Yeah, normally it shouldn't add lag and it should work with lightgun games. After all, it's only doing the same thing the console normally do to output RF, Composite or S-Video, except it doesn't merge the signals to keep it component.

But with a cheap product badly designed, who knows what could happen?
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
I used an RGB scart to component (YUV) converter for years, on a CRT, with flawless results. It was the basic cheap one still available.

Scart was never available on TVs in Australia, so component was the first time we had proper colour definition available. Gamecube component cable (AU$50 delivered directly from Nintendo lol), gave mind blowing results compared to what we were used to.

I soon realised most old consoles output RGB and started the quest to view them properly, and grabbed the RGB/YUV box. Rediscovered all the old games (at least on SNES, Saturn etc) with better IQ.

After I couldn't justify a huge CRT anymore a couple of years ago, I tried the RGB2YUV converter on my Panasonic Plasma. It always showed a blue line in the centre of the screen. Evidently the way the TV's scaler managed 240p over YUV.

TL;DR: RGB2YUV - good on CRT, not so good on fixed pixel display.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
D.Lo said:
TL;DR: RGB2YUV - good on CRT, not so good on fixed pixel display.
Click to expand...

Glad to read this. Just ordered a SCART>component transcoder for a Trinitron CRT I'm picking up today. Saves me from buying into the Framemeister and I get legit SD CRT awesomesauce motion resolution and brightness.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
RPGamer92 said:
I have a PS2 I want to hook up to a BenQ monitor. What's the best way to do this? (Also an N64 maybe as well).
Click to expand...

Depending on the cable you already have, you'll probably have to invest in a transcoder box if you cannot find the rare D-sub PS2 cable. If, for instance, you have a PS2 component cable (red/green/blue), you can buy boxes off of amazon and ebay pretty easily that allow you to feed it through your monitor's HDMI input. For the N64, unless you're using a RGB (I think it needs to be modded and have a specific cable), you'll have to used a similar box that takes S-video or composite and converts it to your monitor's connections. Probably gonna look a little bad, but I'm just guessing since that's a fixed-panel display which is never kind to 480i/480p and older SD consoles.
 
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