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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Lmao what.
Is she just auctioning off stuff when stock is low or when she's on vacation just to see what she can get? I notice that nothing else is for sale at the moment.
Is she just auctioning off stuff when stock is low or when she's on vacation just to see what she can get? I notice that nothing else is for sale at the moment.
theSlacker
Member
Reason why I hated seeing her list something as an auction. Her prices have always been fair, which on ebay means low.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I'm trying to decide on a dedicated device to test input lag.
The Leo Bodnar tester is slick, but it's also expensive and limited (1080p HDMI only). I realized that a Sega Nomad is probably cheaper and and more practical for my particular needs. Pop in an Everdrive running the 240p test suite's timer and plug the AV out into a TV directly (to test the TV's 240p performance by itself) or through an upscaler/TV combo (to test real conditions on a full XRGB set-up).
The Leo Bodnar tester is slick, but it's also expensive and limited (1080p HDMI only). I realized that a Sega Nomad is probably cheaper and and more practical for my particular needs. Pop in an Everdrive running the 240p test suite's timer and plug the AV out into a TV directly (to test the TV's 240p performance by itself) or through an upscaler/TV combo (to test real conditions on a full XRGB set-up).
Boy, you must really like input lag.
what kind of VGA cable are you using? because I got one off of amazon and my TV wouldn't recognize it.
Ended up finding out the cable displays everything off center. Plugged it into a computer monitor and everything worked perfectly
GayForMaster
Banned
This is for the Sony PVM-20L5
Does this mean it can run PS2/OG Xbox/Gamecube/Wii at 480p without doing that weird vertical dual screen stuff? If it can handle up to 1080i, this thing must be the pinnacle of PVM right?
Does this mean it can run PS2/OG Xbox/Gamecube/Wii at 480p without doing that weird vertical dual screen stuff? If it can handle up to 1080i, this thing must be the pinnacle of PVM right?
I'm guessing here, but I think the refresh rate of GBA games is below 60hz, and the screens used on real GBA's are synchronized to accept that speed. But on a 60hz display, there is a stutter every few seconds to get synced back up with the native refresh rate.
Am I way off on this?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
GBA is 60Hz, TVs are 59.94Hz.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
That doesn't really matter. Most consoles run slightly slower or faster than 59.94.
The Game Boy Player stutters because the GBA and the GCN run at slightly different speeds. The TV doesn't factor into it.
Thanks for the info! For what it's worth, I haven't tried my VGA adapter with another TV/monitor, so it could just be the unit, itself. I just assumed it was the television, however, as the TV had text on screen that acknowledged it was connected, but that the device connected had an 'incompatible clock rate.'
I am not sure of the brand of the VGA adapter itself (it's a translucent-black box, it has SVideo, composite and VGA out. I purchased it back during the Dreamcast's brief original reign...) I think it may be a Pelican, though. It looks exactly like this one,
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Sega-Dreamca...-w-S-Video-RCA-Rare-Works-Great-/371093038533
It may be worth trying an difference VGA cable, though.
Hm... sorry about that. I wonder why they run at different speeds? You'd think a GB Player would just be GBA hardware with a straight video-out.
I guess when they added the GUI to the GB Player, they needed to change the hardware to compensate for the extra processing of those filters/options and things got thrown off?
It's just weird given Nintendo's history with the Super GB, GBA's BC, DSi's BC, 3DS's BC, Wii's BC, and Wii U's BC... They usually don't have any issues with running old games at full framerate on new hardware.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
You misunderstand.
The GBP, to my knowledge, does run at the same speed as a GBA. The problem is that it has to go through the GCN, and that runs at a different speed.
I believe that the Super Game Boy and Super Game Boy 2 have timing issues of their own for similar reasons, but they manifest in different ways. Instead of an occasional stutter, the SGB just flat-out runs too fast.
The GBP, to my knowledge, does run at the same speed as a GBA. The problem is that it has to go through the GCN, and that runs at a different speed.
I believe that the Super Game Boy and Super Game Boy 2 have timing issues of their own for similar reasons, but they manifest in different ways. Instead of an occasional stutter, the SGB just flat-out runs too fast.
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
Sometimes it amazes me how little I know about my own collection.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
SGB running to fast is the result of Nintendo cheaping out on hardware. They didn't want to buy another oscillator to let the GB CPU run at the correct clockspeed, so they just divided the clock for the SNES until it was close and called it "close enough." SGB2 has a link port and therefore must have the correct CPU speed in order to work properly with that, so they included the the proper speed oscillator. I haven't seen any timing issues on SGB2.
GBP is kind of a mess. I regret buying one, even if it does look fantastic at the bottom of my spice orange JPN GameCube.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I've heard mixed reports on the SGB2.
I should probably just do a side-by-side test of my own between the SGB2, the GBP, and an actual GBA now that I've pretty much got everything setup in the new apartment...
I should probably just do a side-by-side test of my own between the SGB2, the GBP, and an actual GBA now that I've pretty much got everything setup in the new apartment...
Friend of Sonic
Member
Retro Game Accessories had told me she was going to get more stock for the SNES cable-- she was waiting on more SNES ends that she orders from source.
Maybe she had one cable left and for the lulz listed it as an auction. Hopefully she doesn't get any ideas about her pricing. I've literally ordered everything she makes and my setup should be complete, but still would be terrible if she raised her prices because the nutcakes are bidding so high.
Maybe she had one cable left and for the lulz listed it as an auction. Hopefully she doesn't get any ideas about her pricing. I've literally ordered everything she makes and my setup should be complete, but still would be terrible if she raised her prices because the nutcakes are bidding so high.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I did a bit more digging. GBA screen refreshes at 59.737Hz. If it's trying to catch up to NTSC timing you would have to duplicate a frame every 4.92 seconds. Since I can count about 5 seconds and reliably see a "frame drop" I think this is the cause.
Edit: DS seems to have a very slightly faster refresh rate to the screen. I wonder if Nintendo ran GBA mode at a slightly higher clock speed to compensate for this to have a smooth playback. That would be fine with (explain?) the lack of link port on DS.
See? That's what I thought I saw too. I knew I wasn't crazy (even if I didn't know the proper hz speed of televisions). There's a frame stutter every few seconds.
what a mess with the GBP. it seems like nintendo's corner-cutting strikes again. it's sad how homebrew options are better.
i got that same cable a few months ago. it was the final piece to have my old consoles running as good as possible. good thing i got it already.
i got that same cable a few months ago. it was the final piece to have my old consoles running as good as possible. good thing i got it already.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I think this problem might also explain the latency I'm noticing. If you had to framebuffer the GBA output you'd be behind by 1 frame. After duplicating the frame you're behind by 2 until you catch up (behind by 1 again), duplicate and behind by 2. I'm not sure if 2 frames by itself is noticeable but maybe there's something else going on in the GameCube delaying things further... comparing Mario 3 on GBP vs SNES through the same setup it's a very noticeable difference for me.
Homebrew options aren't running on actual hardware and in my experience GBA emulators do an abysmal job of emulating sound on the system.
IrishNinja
Member
thing is, she does really high quality work, and has pretty much no competition in her lane/price....so when that one ends at 3-4x her going rate, if she decides to capitalize on that madness, i can't even blame her. ive seen people pay $50+ for saturn s-vid cables which aren't nearly as good.
What are these cables on over retrogamingcables, £9.99??, get one from them.....im sure there of equal quality.
Speaking of which has anyone done an actual tear down of these cables from both retrogamingcables.co.uk and retro_console_accessories and compared them??, is one deemed to be of much higher quality that the other?
I myself have bought from both in the past and have been happy with both of them
i forgot to explain but i meant homebrew as in capture cards modded onto GBA and DS hardware since there's people who would rather use the original console and skip all the GBP nonsense to record their GBA games (or just be able to record at all with DS games).
I feel like that model has severe ghosting issues that are a serious no-no for platformers. DS-lite is probably the best IQ for GBA.
i haven't used my AGS-101 in years but i don't remember any issues like that and i used to play Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission in it.
any easy ways to test it for comparison purposes? i'm curious about it and i also have a DSPhat and lite around.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Original GBA or bust.
Not a fan of hardware-specific batteries, especially for older systems that get harder to replace with time.
Not a fan of hardware-specific batteries, especially for older systems that get harder to replace with time.
sixteen-bit
Member
Shoutouts to modded AGB.
Friend of Sonic
Member
I hear you. And there is always middleground between her lowend and the stupid high end from the buyers
I beg to differ..................
i wanted one of these a long time ago but i don't use GBA games as much anymore so it kinda fell off the map for me.
i do have a GBA-to-TV adapter somewhere and i heard that can be modded to get better quality on a Framemeister. i think that'd be a good alternative.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
It does have some bad ghosting, but severe is kind of overstating it. PSP has severe ghosting; SP-101 isn't anywhere near that bad.
BONKERS
Member
Pretty simple. It's native resolution. It looks sharper, it looks more natural. It has scanlines. Things actually appear to be more detailed.
Mind you this is only true on a CRT
Moor-Angol
Banned
I read it adds 20ms of it.
IrishNinja
Member
i could be wrong, but i think it might be more in that example, too - with all the res changes/etc
like, i wanna say having had my DC go VGA to HDMI then upscaled prolly added more as well
Moor-Angol
Banned
but you mean playing PS1 games from PS2 hoookep up to XRGB or even PS2 games ?
If so, switching from D-Terminal to RGB changes something ?
If so, switching from D-Terminal to RGB changes something ?
That capture card is worth it, I have something like that, enjoy.
D.Lo
Member
I have not seen a single emulator for GBA that runs on a console that has anything near acceptable performance.
Backlit SP for me, I prefer it to the DS, I don't like the warmer tint on the DS. Would love a perfect TV solution however.
BONKERS
Member
If you set the output to 480p. I'm sure PS3>Framemeister could turn out well.
Be warned though, PS1 games on the PS3 apparently do have about a 1 1/2th frames of lag, so it will stack.
The frame and a half of latency has never been an issue for me personally when playing on a CRT. On one of my LCD's that has already about 2 1/4th frames of lag, it does make a small noticeable difference.
To quote from Fudoh
Have you not played the Wii U VC games? They are essentially perfect. The 3DS ones are pretty good too, not perfect but good.
The DS Lite's completely over saturated and uneven aging screen is terrible IMO for GBA games. The original DSPhat is my preferred solution IMO simply because it has the least motion blur and ghosting.
The motion blur on the AGS-101 is a quite a bit worse and more noticeable compared to the phat.
The only issues with the DSPhat is the viewing angles are flat out bad. And the colors a little more muted. BUT, tons of GBA games were designed on the original lightless GBA. So the Phat's color ends up evening it out IMO.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I kind of think that using both a PS3 and XRGB just to play emulated PS1 games is redundant and over-processed. Either use the PS3 by itself or a PS1/PS2 + XRGB imo.
Also, in my experience, screen quality between different DS Lites could vary quite a lot. It didn't even necessarily matter which manufacturing batch they came from, either. I cycled through a few when the hinge crack was really common and noticed that the colors were perfect on some systems but the tint was noticeably off on others. On systems where the hinge was cracked, you could actually alter the tint by moving around the top screen a little; if it was slightly dislodged in a specific way the colors just weren't right.
Also, in my experience, screen quality between different DS Lites could vary quite a lot. It didn't even necessarily matter which manufacturing batch they came from, either. I cycled through a few when the hinge crack was really common and noticed that the colors were perfect on some systems but the tint was noticeably off on others. On systems where the hinge was cracked, you could actually alter the tint by moving around the top screen a little; if it was slightly dislodged in a specific way the colors just weren't right.
BONKERS
Member
It's hardly redundant since you are getting the absolute purest signal from a PS1 physically possible. The most you get is an extra frame and a half of latency. That hardly makes it over processed. Especially since if you feed the XRGB the PS3 in 480p, essentially all that's happening is line doubling the original signal and then upscaling it with the XRGB.
Which isn't something so uncommon when it comes to the stuff people chain together with upscalers.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Plus that of both the upscaler and the TV. Not worth it.
Part of the point of even using the PS3 to play PS1 games is to upscale them for your HDTV. (Whether it's actually any good for that purpose is a matter of opinion.) When you daisy chain it through another device for the exact same purpose, then yes, it's redundant. Dedicated upscalers are not as vital for 480p content as they are for 240p/480i either.
To get "the absolute purest signal from a PS1 physically possible," you should use a PS1. Or a PS2, which is close enough for most games.
IrishNinja
Member
^this, sixfour is saying what i kinda meant to: the PS3 already adds lag playing PSX games (Lammy & some SHMUPs were noticeable for me), throw in your TV & the framemeister and it's gonna be a mess.
if you're playing an RPG, strategy etc game you might not care too much, but most other genres are really gonna suffer, i'd wager.
if you're playing an RPG, strategy etc game you might not care too much, but most other genres are really gonna suffer, i'd wager.
The fuck? playing a GBA game on a DS is essentially playing a GBA. This simple fact means that the 3DS is superior at playing GBA games than the WiiU. Native system > emulation.
Compare native vs native, or emulation vs emulation. But don't mix them because it makes no sense.
What is this exactly?I beg to differ..................
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