MHWilliams
Member
That's cool. I was talking to those who seemed to outright hate the review.
Polygon's reviewer is perfectly welcome to his opinion, others just seem to disagree vehemently.
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Bayonetta 2 Review Thread - Metacritic: one billion-hit combo, buy it kids
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That's cool. I was talking to those who seemed to outright hate the review.
Polygon's reviewer is perfectly welcome to his opinion, others just seem to disagree vehemently.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
A lot of great posts here that far better explain than I ever could why the over-sexualization complaint is just nonsense in this instance. There are many - many examples in gaming and beyond where that is a legitimate case to make, but here? That goes beyond missing every point and straight into seemingly satirical levels.
Anyway, while I've never been super-excited by this franchise, I'm happy to see it reviewing so well. It's a type of game that's seen all to rarely, from a studio that deserves all the positive attention it can get, on a platform that has been struggling for far too long. Hopefully it sells better outside of Japan, though sadly I'm not overly-optimistic.
Anyway, while I've never been super-excited by this franchise, I'm happy to see it reviewing so well. It's a type of game that's seen all to rarely, from a studio that deserves all the positive attention it can get, on a platform that has been struggling for far too long. Hopefully it sells better outside of Japan, though sadly I'm not overly-optimistic.
Wii U definitely have more then one must have game, imo of course.
QuixoticNeutral
Member
As an indirect response to the Polygon review, JP Kellams' Twitter feed is worth a look.
@pg_jp said:Don’t sweat that Polygon review… The only way @aegies is ever going to be a PG fan is if we hire him to hold one and feed us grapes.
Just remember these are all just opinions from people who have played the game. The most important opinion is yours.
There is actually some really interesting stuff to think about regarding male gaze, male expectation, and the things we do in Bayonetta.
I wrote about it in a 1UP op-ed back in the day, but now that 1UP is kaput, I can’t link back to it.
Cameras are obviously intentionally provocative. But then almost always Bayonetta as a character turns any sense of weakness on its head.
So its an interesting interplay between expectation and result. Its kind of like the expectation flips that happen in genre horror film.
Carol Clover’s work on male gaze in horror film, especially slash/revenge films, is a good touchstone for this. I think it applies to games.
Of course, feminist critical theory and genre film was just something I studied for a couple of years. Not something I’m an expert in.
Obviously we have the freedom to create what we want. Critics have the freedom to criticize freely. All opinions are valid. Yours the most.
So if someone comes at it from a position you disagree with, or think is invalid, LISTEN. Maybe they are saying something smart.
And yes, I intentionally had a little fun with tagging @aegies to get your attention. Take in ALL opinions and form your own.
Even opinions you disagree with. You can articulate why you disagree. Maybe you can change someone’s mind. Shouting them down is foolish.
The only thing you ever learn from shouting someone down is how to be loud.
To those asking how well it runs: surprisingly well.
Let us assume the performance of the 360 version of Bayonetta 1 as a raw baseline. Remove any screen tearing, and make the lowest dips not into 10-20fps, but rather 15-25. That is how the game goes. More than enough for the whole game.
And for the Witch Trials, because the background is rather static there, the performance never seems to go below 30, like..ever.
Let us assume the performance of the 360 version of Bayonetta 1 as a raw baseline. Remove any screen tearing, and make the lowest dips not into 10-20fps, but rather 15-25. That is how the game goes. More than enough for the whole game.
And for the Witch Trials, because the background is rather static there, the performance never seems to go below 30, like..ever.
LOL, thanks for this.
ForsakenLotus
Member
Kamiya must have poured all of his frustrations into this game, dayum. It's a shame it probably won't sell a ton of copies - as most Platinum games don't - but I'm happy Nintendo decided to fund this game even if it doesn't make them much profit. Sometimes, it's about just bringing an awesome game to your platform.
Punished_Snake
Member
Game Revolution:"While I didnt spend much time in this mode, I did come to laugh more and more at Bayonettas awkward animations and slightly less-than-believable narrative shifts."
loool
loool
Ban Puncher
Member
What?
Haha.
Scores don't really surprise me after playing the demo. People need to stop focusing on one review though, every single review thread seems to end up focusing on polygon.
itchyass86
Member
Oprah should review this game. That way everyone gets a copy of Bayonetta 2. Problem solved.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Aside from what I said in my post, I like what you point out here. Something with sexuality in my own life has been breaking out of puritanical religious views I was in for a long time. A big part of that was not just a naturalization (as opposed to moralistic spiritualization) of sexual practices, but within that naturalization to accept sexuality as a natural inert part of ones being apart from the relations with or estimations of others upon it. You can be and feel sexy and have pride in it even without anyone around to consider you so. It's a natural essence, a part of good health, not something inherently driven or impacted by how it connects to others.
Considering that, I have seen some dissonance between the western conversation and the Japanese conversation. In many ways, Japan is exploring a post-relations sexuality. There is still plenty of old school exploitation there, but there are also a lot of lifestyle options afforded by technology and experimented in by half a generation of seemingly self-determined forever-singles. They are questioning many things about humanity and identity in general, and sexuality is just one aspect of it. Meanwhile, over in the west here we are still seemingly solely focused the relationships and power struggles of established social conventions. We don't have a space to even begin viewing an autonomy like Bayonetta for its intention of being.
It's likely that we will develop a space for it in time, and have a plurality of conversations both old and new going on at once just like they are in Japan, but that space certainly isn't going to be prepared by tone-deaf critiques that oversimplify products into a dishonest interpretation to serve the next push in a power struggle one is committed to championing.
ClosingADoor
Member
Good scores all around. Got a 8.5 / 10 here. Bit lower, but still good http://www.xgn.nl/review/61395/bayonetta-2
Not before we get a Kill la Kill game first.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
As someone who is not all too much into action games at all, having reviewed the game too, I was extremely suprised to see rating sub-8. I'm even more surprised to see complaints about sexualisation, because while the explicit scenes are plentiful and in your face, it always seemed tongue-in-cheek and fitting to the character to me. To name a recent example, I found the bikini scenes in Danganronpa 2 way, way more awkward.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
Wow @ those scores. I didn't expect that. I was on the fence for this game but it looks like something that can't be missed. I guess I'll be getting Bayonetta then!
TriangleMasher
Member
the 92 is a lie.
. Although given the previous entry got what a metacrititc of 87-90 and reasonably good user reviews. and given how this one is reviewing so well I wonder why no one agreed to publish this? Does this game (the previous entry ie) just sell like garbage?
It's a rather hefty game in budget I would assume, so smaller publishers like Nippon Ichi wouldn't cut it. Sega was disappointed with the sales, but they're the ones that still retain ownership of the Bayonetta IP.
Sony doesn't invest into existing franchises. They want to own an IP, like the whole Demon's Souls vs Dark Souls debacle.
Microsoft is probably in the same field, since they backed up D4 and it sold like nothing. Still took a chance with Scalebound though.
Bayonetta 1 did not sell like garbage however. 1.25 million or so I believe?
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Didn't we get that at E3?
Hahah holy shit
While I also agree with your initial post, the converse can be true,
Playing the first Bayonetta, I would find myself sometimes thrown out of the experience by the character design. It wasn't really a 'puritanical' reaction but more-so the fact I had never seen sexuality used as part of the combat mechanics before. It was part novel and part distracting, a by-stander would be forgiven for harbouring adverse implicit thoughts as to the nature of the game.
Though expecting the Arthur Gies' of the world to be more evolved is asking too much tbh
lol...totally!!
Indeed, high profile games don't automatically get almost perfect score as much as a few years ago.
You are saying man cant do this? How about Nudist Beach members in Kill la Kill, huh?
digoutyoursoul
Member
I don't want to jump on the bandwagon but reading Polygon's review I can't help but feel how pompous they come across. It even begs the question, do they actually enjoy video games that much? It seems like they have above 8 stamps that collects dust and have to be seen to use it once in a while but not in this case.
I know, opinions, it's their reasoning that at times irks me.
I know, opinions, it's their reasoning that at times irks me.
I wouldn't put any more thought into that particular review.
It's become pretty clear that they always tend to write these kinds of things, not because of how they actually feel, but because it will create controversy, get people talking about them more than any other site, get them tons of clicks and thus make them a lot of money.
Look, I'm doing it as well, talking about a shit site that isn't worth mentioning, let alone trying to understand why they write something.
TyrantGuardian
Member
Huge props to JP, very well put and I hope the fans pay attention. This stuff is important.
blankempathy
Member
To be fair the bikini scene wasn't just fan service.
MrCookiepants
Member
Well deserved. I hope this burns Bungie.
I'm sure they'd rather make money.
I love you for being able to put in words what I wanted to say.
Bayo is in TOTAL CONTROL of her body. She owns it and she knows no one can stop her. It is for her enjoyment. Also, the naked female body is often associated with weakness. When a woman is naked is when she is more vulnerable (we could even make an association with cases of revenge porn here, as well), but not Bayonetta. When she is naked is where she is more powerful and where her enemies have real reasons for concern. I fell it is quite symbolic.
I love Bayonetta, as a game and also as a character.
Wow, that Gamespot review is some next level stuff. Making this game exist is honestly one of the best moves that Nintendo has done in the last few years.
And yeah, since the Gies thing its gonna be front and center of this discussion and the guy is kind of ignorant on some stuff, im gonna say this: While I dont think that the game is meant for the player to sexually enjoy Bayo's poses and camera shots I do think its easy to assume that its yet another perverted Japanese creation, it doesnt help that the person in charge with properly introducing the character to the world ended up making ultimately a shoddy job at it with his most sobering thoughts on the character having less impact that this shit:
Obviously, the last one is on Sega, they take part of the blame too, so do the journalists and people that decided to focus on his "Bayonetta is the ideal woman" statements rather than trying to get the whole picture.
Compare this with Nintendo effectively having their their female staff to explain the strength of the character and Platinum doing the same with their female producer Akiko Kuroda and its easier for people to make a second take on the character and reconsider their stance.
Also, I doubt Gies did it for the clicks, it actually feels bold and brave (as brave as a game review can be, at least) in this climate of dangerous little twats feeling emboldened by #BigotGate.
And yeah, since the Gies thing its gonna be front and center of this discussion and the guy is kind of ignorant on some stuff, im gonna say this: While I dont think that the game is meant for the player to sexually enjoy Bayo's poses and camera shots I do think its easy to assume that its yet another perverted Japanese creation, it doesnt help that the person in charge with properly introducing the character to the world ended up making ultimately a shoddy job at it with his most sobering thoughts on the character having less impact that this shit:
Obviously, the last one is on Sega, they take part of the blame too, so do the journalists and people that decided to focus on his "Bayonetta is the ideal woman" statements rather than trying to get the whole picture.
Compare this with Nintendo effectively having their their female staff to explain the strength of the character and Platinum doing the same with their female producer Akiko Kuroda and its easier for people to make a second take on the character and reconsider their stance.
Also, I doubt Gies did it for the clicks, it actually feels bold and brave (as brave as a game review can be, at least) in this climate of dangerous little twats feeling emboldened by #BigotGate.
digoutyoursoul
Member
Metro's review is a great read, well written.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
That's the problem.
90TilInfinity
Member
I expected those scores so I'm not surprised at all
And fuck Polygon, you're writing a review of a game, not an analysis of over-sexualization in the industry. Does he have any sense of humor? Bayonetta is a self-confident and strong character in charge of her own destiny. Is he going to review all games based on social themes, is he going to criticize Call Of Duty because it's an apology of war? He's not consistent in how he approaches a game, making his opinion irrelevant in that context. His "review" should have been a blog post.
There's really nothing wrong with him writing about a game's sexualisation if it bothers him. The issue I have in this case with it is he doesn't say why it's so at odds with the character and how it undermines how she consistently dominates (mostly male) characters throughout the game(s). Because that's the whole point, right? Unless we're just jumping on the idea of making women in games act sexy in a vacuum?
I mean, Quiet is an dumb, exploitative character design because it doesn't seem to fit with her tasks or the game in general. Bayonetta is the same because...
Gies isn't the type to be willing or able to complete that sentence though.
thank you for this.
I've actually always felt that Bayonetta herself was in charge of the camera, the perspective and the poses she strikes continually. If anything, she is so aware of the male gaze that she exploits it to her own advantadge and turns it into another weapon.
But to realise this, you have to look at it more than once.
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