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Mario 64 and FF7; two revolutionary games, which shaped/impacted the industry more?
- Thread starter enigmatic_alex44
- Start date
I feel like this is the correct answer.
Both games made a huge impact on the industry, which lasted until the PS2/GC/Xbox era. Beyond that, they became dinosaurs and the gaming industry took a different turn.
wandering goat
Member
These are two of my favourite games, but Mario 64 is the best game of all time.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
It is easily sm64, you're just too used to actually being able to move a character in a 3d space to notice it most of the time.
I was going to mention quake but the poster above me did. THAT is the other side of the coin.
I was going to mention quake but the poster above me did. THAT is the other side of the coin.
prag16
Banned
This, sadly. The answer SHOULD be Mario 64. But we all see the direction most of the industry has gone. I remember the marketing for FF7 was 99.9% the FMV cutscenes. When I saw the actual game, my reaction was "wtf is this shit".
FF7 put story, presentation, and graphics first.
Mario64 put gameplay first.
Which had more impact on the industry?
Mario 64 was revolutionary, sure. But, most games these don't don't try to emulate it. Not only are people not making 3D platformers anymore, many big games are story, presentation, and graphics first, just like FF7. Even navigating in 3D space is an after thought in many games today. (go play Skyrim or DA: Inquisition if you're wondering what I mean). And it's not just about "oh nobody's making 3D platformers anymore", it's about the overall design philosophies. Today's industry rarely follows the design philosophies of 64.
Mario64 put gameplay first.
Which had more impact on the industry?
Mario 64 was revolutionary, sure. But, most games these don't don't try to emulate it. Not only are people not making 3D platformers anymore, many big games are story, presentation, and graphics first, just like FF7. Even navigating in 3D space is an after thought in many games today. (go play Skyrim or DA: Inquisition if you're wondering what I mean). And it's not just about "oh nobody's making 3D platformers anymore", it's about the overall design philosophies. Today's industry rarely follows the design philosophies of 64.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Even though FF7 is probably my favorite game, I was equally confused, until people in the thread reminded me that Sony would not be where they are today without FF7 ending up on PS1, and not the N64. In that instance, FF7 had a massive effect on the entire industry.
But yea, that's still hard to compete against a game like Mario64 which changed 3D movement forever.
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Not even close. RE was important but it was primitive compared to FF7. RE2 would be closer but FF7 was just massive in scope, created a huge believable world, fantastic battle system, 100 song soundtrack, huge script, fantastic cast; it broke genre barriers and many people who didn't play or even like RPGs were converted by FF7. RE4 was where RE really became a contender (and when I finally became a real fan).
Randomizer
Member
Super Mario 64's full 3D controls, 3D camera and full 3D world undoubtedly had a much bigger impact. It's one of the most influential games of all time. FFVII was just another JRPG it just so happens to be most people's first, myself included.
Duane Cunningham
Member
If you look past aesthetic style, I'm willing to claim that Mario 64 had more influence than FF7 on games like GTA3, God of War, all the way up to Uncharted and Tomb Raider. Cinematic cut scenes would have happened anyway. But the way 3D worlds are constructed, the way the camera is like a separate "character" you move with the [strikethrough]yellow C buttons[/strikethrough], the idea that in like, every third person shooter, you grab the ledge automatically then press the action button to pull up or press down to drop? Those pieces of gameplay vocabulary were established by Miyamoto in SM64, derivative of literally nothing, and a lot of them have stayed in place all these years later.
Yes, 3D games with a visible character would exist today with or without SM64, but I think if you went back in time and erased it from history, they'd look VERY different in a lot of ways. A lot more different than if you erased FF7.
If you're discounting SM64's influence because its genre isn't as common these days, you're missing the fact that its influence went WAY beyond platformers.
Yes, 3D games with a visible character would exist today with or without SM64, but I think if you went back in time and erased it from history, they'd look VERY different in a lot of ways. A lot more different than if you erased FF7.
If you're discounting SM64's influence because its genre isn't as common these days, you're missing the fact that its influence went WAY beyond platformers.
Neff
Member
I've got to give it to Super Mario 64. It invented and defined 3D gaming overnight, and very few games have come close to it.
Final Fantasy VII was the first step towards the production values and budgets we see today, in fact very few games even now cost as much as FFVII did (even disregarding inflation), or have a team as big as FFVII did. I'm not sure I'd suggest that its soundtrack set a precedent -although it's one of the finest of all time- because FFVI's was just as good if not even more grandiose and ambitious.
In terms of videogame politics, Final Fantasy VII is demonstrably more important.
Both are without a doubt two of the biggest gaming icons of the '90s, indeed ever.
Final Fantasy VII was the first step towards the production values and budgets we see today, in fact very few games even now cost as much as FFVII did (even disregarding inflation), or have a team as big as FFVII did. I'm not sure I'd suggest that its soundtrack set a precedent -although it's one of the finest of all time- because FFVI's was just as good if not even more grandiose and ambitious.
In terms of videogame politics, Final Fantasy VII is demonstrably more important.
Both are without a doubt two of the biggest gaming icons of the '90s, indeed ever.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It's completely arguable we would have gotten there anyway, but the analog 3D movement Nintendo implemented in Mario 64 is still seen as the modern standard for 3D movement. Particularly in 3rd person titles. All roads point back to Mario 64.
Since, there has been a consistent focus on movement, realism, and momentum using the exact same control archetype.
FF7 changed how videogame marketing and advertising worked. We'd seen videogame stories and cutscenes before. They were just not used to that degree to sell the software.
Both had an impact. Mario 64's impact is still seen today with almost ubiquitous usage of control schemes derived from that archetype.
Since, there has been a consistent focus on movement, realism, and momentum using the exact same control archetype.
FF7 changed how videogame marketing and advertising worked. We'd seen videogame stories and cutscenes before. They were just not used to that degree to sell the software.
Both had an impact. Mario 64's impact is still seen today with almost ubiquitous usage of control schemes derived from that archetype.
I much prefer FFVII, but it's boggling my mind that people are saying that game.
Mario 64, easily. Mario 64's influence can be exemplified by just playing it. I see people saying things about FFVII's budget...but a lot of games starting from that era had a massive budget in both marketing and the development.
Mario 64, easily. Mario 64's influence can be exemplified by just playing it. I see people saying things about FFVII's budget...but a lot of games starting from that era had a massive budget in both marketing and the development.
*or Quake
I know a lot of console players tend to take quake for granted, but it's arguably been more of an influence than Mario 64 was since the influx of western developers onto the console front since the original Xbox.
Call of Duty, Half-Life, Halo, etc. all owe basically their entire existence to the principles Quake established in 1996.
To Far Away Times
Member
What game isn't inspired by Mario 64?
MisterGrey3000
Member
As the person above you pointed out, a lot of western first person shooter games.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
I would say that Tomb Raider 1, which was released a few months later, had more of a influence than Mario 64 on 3d games. Then there was Quake and a lot of other PC games at the time.
frankie_baby
Member
Ff 7 took how games looked foreword
Mario 64 took how games ARE forward
Mario 64 took how games ARE forward
MrCunningham
Member
Its kinda amazing that these games came out in the exact same year. Same with Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Crash Bandicoot, Nights: Into Dreams, Pilotwings 64, Virtua Fighter 3 in the arcades, Duke Nukem 3D (yeah not innovative tech wise, but it still did some interesting new things). 1996 was a breakout year for 3D gaming in general.
But for this thread, I guess I will have to say Mario 64. It brought along the analogue thumb stick and that literally changed the face of controllers and the way console games controlled in 3D space. Final Fantasy 7 never really did anything for me as a game, to be honest
(and the Aerith thing was done better in Phantasy Star 2)
I feel like saying "Well almost all games have a character moving in a 3D environment, so the answer must be Mario64" is a pretty top down way to look at things. That's really just surface level. Of course games with characters in a 3D environment require movement in said 3D environment. It was inevitable. What was not inevitable was which design philosophies would be prioritized in the future. Mario64's or FF7's?
When you look at the overall design philosophies, very few games these days emulate Mario64. I think the modern games that share design philosophies closest with Mario 64 are games like the Souls games. Which are pretty rare, and certainly not at the forefront of the industry.
The answer of "what has shaped and impacted the industry most today", is story, presentation, and visuals. Therefore, if these two games are the only options, the answer is FF7.
When you look at the overall design philosophies, very few games these days emulate Mario64. I think the modern games that share design philosophies closest with Mario 64 are games like the Souls games. Which are pretty rare, and certainly not at the forefront of the industry.
The answer of "what has shaped and impacted the industry most today", is story, presentation, and visuals. Therefore, if these two games are the only options, the answer is FF7.
Metal Gear Solid probably did much more than FF7 to usher in cinematic presentation and set the tone of future trends. Quality VA, long, well-directed cutscenes, a complex plot populated with multi-dimensional characters...it did most of the things FF7 did better and with a more immediate impact on developers and players (namely, marrying them to the 3D gameplay that Mario 64 pioneered).
Trigonometrize.
Member
Your opinion of the game relative to your perception of everyone's opinion of the game is irrelevant.
Anyway, it's a tough call because most of the genres that these games were apart of... kinda... died. Nothing is eternal, but JRPGs and 3D platformers aren't exactly at the top of the list for industry wide relevancy not long after these two games came out. In the end though, I'll go with VII. PS1 was a bastion of JRPGs partially thanks to FFVII with PS2 not far behind while 3D platformers managed to burn out and die within like a decade of their inception.
Edit: Huh. It seems the crux of the counter-argument deals with how Mario 64 defined 3D games, not just the much more specific 3D platformer. I don't agree with that premise.
Randomizer
Member
The amount of actions Mario can perform in Mario 64 is ridiculous, it puts most modern games to shame. It was such an amazing sandbox to play about in and was a revelation back when it released. The starting area outside Peach's castle is one of the best tutorial areas ever in a game and it just throws you in. It was honestly a magical experience on release, nothing has compared to it.
Mario 64 defined the way movement in a 3D plane should be done and is still being used today. FF7 made games more cinematic. Mario 64 wins IMO.
Come on. No games today even slightly resemble the 3D movement found in Tomb Raider.
I would say that Tomb Raider 1, which was released a few months later, had more of a influence than Mario 64 on 3d games. Then there was Quake and a lot of other PC games at the time.
Come on. No games today even slightly resemble the 3D movement found in Tomb Raider.
How can you argue that, honestly? There are plenty of non-3D, non-platformer games that show absolutely no influence from Mario 64 as well as plenty of RPGs and story-driven games that clearly took pages from FF7.
This entire question isn't a black/white ordeal. Some people need to be a little less hyperbolic.
Dantejerry
Member
I think FF7's legacy and influence is more of a ghost in the machine while Mario's impact is a lot more overtly noticeable. Yeah, FF7 solidified the popularity of the RPG genre in the west when it released in 1997, but what was important was that it further paved the way for future games such as Baulder's gate which when then eventually lead us to Mass Effect. The way games were marketed were changed by FF7 as well I think. If you look at the commercials that ran about FF7 in 1997 you can see that they weren't just trying to push a simple game, but more of a cinematic experience, a blockbuster. Many of the biggest games since then have all followed a similar strategy (which could be good or bad). Also, apart from video games, its hypothesized that the anime inspired aesthetic of FF7 contributed to the growth of anime/manga audiences in the US during the 1990's.
But yeah, I think Mario's influence was more direct than FF7. Once somebody made a game with a fully realized polygonal world, everybody else would have to follow suit too. Both obviously important games, but I think FF7's influence was just a bit broader.
But yeah, I think Mario's influence was more direct than FF7. Once somebody made a game with a fully realized polygonal world, everybody else would have to follow suit too. Both obviously important games, but I think FF7's influence was just a bit broader.
Trigonometrize.
Member
How? What parts of, say, Wolfenstein: The New Order or Uncharted 3 or Minecraft can you link back to Mario 64? Just because it was there at the beginning doesn't mean the game invented the technology or the button mapping.
If you add 3D game in his statement then it's not really that hard to argue for it. Analogue movement + camera controls are kind of a big deal.
FF7 had the bigger impact on the industry.
SM64 had the bigger impact on game design.
I do agree that a lot of people miscalculate how much influence SM64 actually had. I'll still say it popularized 3D game design for a lot of people and was one of the first games to really get it right uniformly. However, I think the influences in 3D game design almost follow two different schools of thought now, each one mildly intersecting at points.
Western 3D games, particularly first person shooters and RPGs were hugely influenced by Quake, Half-Life, Elite, Ultima Underworld before them. These kinds of games have become much more prominent in the console space, and so those classics are a lot more important today. On the other hand, SM64 and Ocarina of Time after it probably still had a fundamental influence on 3D games born and bread within the console space. When you think about it a good proportion of the games that followed after aspects SM64 and OOT were actually western. Japanese 3D game design took more after FF7 for a long time.
One place where the two streams intersected though was how SM64's multiple-stars-per-world system inspired GoldenEye's objective system which in turn inspired Thief's objective system.
SM64 had the bigger impact on game design.
I do agree that a lot of people miscalculate how much influence SM64 actually had. I'll still say it popularized 3D game design for a lot of people and was one of the first games to really get it right uniformly. However, I think the influences in 3D game design almost follow two different schools of thought now, each one mildly intersecting at points.
Western 3D games, particularly first person shooters and RPGs were hugely influenced by Quake, Half-Life, Elite, Ultima Underworld before them. These kinds of games have become much more prominent in the console space, and so those classics are a lot more important today. On the other hand, SM64 and Ocarina of Time after it probably still had a fundamental influence on 3D games born and bread within the console space. When you think about it a good proportion of the games that followed after aspects SM64 and OOT were actually western. Japanese 3D game design took more after FF7 for a long time.
One place where the two streams intersected though was how SM64's multiple-stars-per-world system inspired GoldenEye's objective system which in turn inspired Thief's objective system.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Mario 64 defined a genre. Final Fantasy 7 changed the industry. It was also the first game of its genre to put JRPGs in the spotlight in the west.
FFVII would be my choice.
FFVII would be my choice.
While I feel that FF7 did bring the cinematic style first, the real industry change in that direction came from Metal Gear Solid.
Mario 64 on the other hand basically defined movement in a 3D space. It was the first 3D game with analog controls, which resonate with pretty much any 3D game that has analog movement within a 3D space.
Therefore, I have to give it to Mario 64.
Mario 64 on the other hand basically defined movement in a 3D space. It was the first 3D game with analog controls, which resonate with pretty much any 3D game that has analog movement within a 3D space.
Therefore, I have to give it to Mario 64.
I can agree with this. I feel SM 64 had a more lasting impact though.
Wiktor
Member
To be honest...few moden 3D games resemble Mario64. It used to be differet, but nowadays even TPP games are mostly played like FPSes with character constantly visible on screen.
FF7 was essentially the same game FF6 was but with 3D visuals and FMV... that isn't to impugn the impact it's had, but it wasn't exactly cutting edge when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it
Mario 64 went off like an A-bomb in 3D gaming, analogous to how Super Mario Bros 1 shaped the medium a decade before it
Mario 64 went off like an A-bomb in 3D gaming, analogous to how Super Mario Bros 1 shaped the medium a decade before it
This seems like the most accurate answer. Really though, both games were Giants at the time.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Mario 64 was the exact same thing from the 2D Mario's too. When you think about actual gameplay you were still jumping on people, platforming and jumping on bosses heads the whole game. Nothing revolutionary at all.
The only revolution was getting the 3D camera right
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Mario 64 since it didn't feel familiar and was totally new while FFVII for me seemed like an upgrade from FFVI both visually and was more cinamatic yet it retains its FF roots.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Tomb Raider was interesting, cause it had attempted to tackle the same problems Mario did, and offered a half answer that needed further refinement. The camera has never as awesome, but due to it's nature of indoor-ness it's forgivable. At the same time, it created it's own language in terms of how to do a game within building, which many subsequent 3d games like Prince of Persia and Uncharted had too all reference. The same goes for a shooting combat system: they had to think about some sort of snap assist: Zelda 64 had a more refined solution. It's no Mario 64 in the way that it do so many things right, but it's definitely up there as one of those games that pointed to where things would be heading.
I would say that Tomb Raider 1, which was released a few months later, had more of a influence than Mario 64 on 3d games. Then there was Quake and a lot of other PC games at the time.
It's easy to overlook, as it's easy to overlook Quake now due to its crude visuals and remote place in history, but Assassin's Creed and such games still rely on the fundamentals laid down by Super Mario 64. The SM64 engine itself was iterated upon by Nintendo for Ocarina of Time, further establishing 3rd person 3d design paradigms that affect the industry today, such as with Demons/Dark Souls.
I would say that Tomb Raider 1, which was released a few months later, had more of a influence than Mario 64 on 3d games. Then there was Quake and a lot of other PC games at the time.
Tomb Raider did a lot to establish TPS. It was more flawed in its execution than Quake or Super Mario 64, though, so it took several other titles from other developers to really finalize what Tomb Raider started.