This seems like a great way to pointlessly derail what is a good thread into being locked.
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How Anita Sarkeesian Wants Video Games To Change (Kotaku)
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This seems like a great way to pointlessly derail what is a good thread into being locked.
entremet
Member
The bulleted list is a summary on her talk, which was titled with a slide that said:
"How to make video games less shitty for women"
The premise of the talk wasn't to demand these as barking down orders. I think that's where people are getting confused.
If you have time listen to the talk it has more nuance.
"How to make video games less shitty for women"
The premise of the talk wasn't to demand these as barking down orders. I think that's where people are getting confused.
If you have time listen to the talk it has more nuance.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
You can hold bad opinions even as a NeoGAF member.
List doesn't seem wrong. Makes sense since that should be the basics if you want equality in gaming.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I do think it's a mix of general societal problems and some issues specific to games. One thing I've come to notice more and more is how there's a certain subset of gamers who seem to have difficulty distinguishing between actual attempts at censorship and legitimate criticism and commentary. I can't help but wonder how much past attempts to censor and misrepresent games by the likes of Jack Thompson have made contributed to that.
That all having been said, I've seen enough to know that it's not just a gaming thing. You see similar attitudes regarding too many other subjects for it to be completely a gaming thing.
Conkerkid11
Member
Just watched gameplay.
That is pretty bad, then again, I don't think BioWare's well known for good female character implementation.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Their not idolizing the female characters their looking up to the male characters of the show. They just so happen to have problematic female characters in them and some become a tool for the main male characters of the show. The Walking Dead is hit and miss with it's female characters. It's nice that a black female character like Michonne is becoming as popular as Daryl in the show but they do tend to mess up on the other female characters.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Oh, I'm definitely not suggesting that games don't attract a specific crowd that embody this mentality. The game industry has been a frat house existing in isolation for far too long. Gamergate is proof that we've let this shit slide for far too long.
It's a conservative thing, not all conservatives to be clear, but on average it's a conservative failing to feel any movement they don't agree with as going against some freedom of some sort, whether it's freedom of speech(usually comes up in "political correctness" conversations) or right to bear arms etc. And I say this, but I'm not a liberal either.
Personally I think Bioware hasn't had interesting characters in general for awhile now, but they do do equal representation well, at least. Though they're guilty of mid-convo ass-shots since mass effect 2.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
But it's both. Sexualized armour is not practical, on that we can agree (well, most people agree -- I've had some idiots claim it's "for mobility", lol). Giant pauldrons with lots of spikes are also not practical, but the key difference is that they are not demeaning to the wearer; they're supposed to be empowering. Now don't get me wrong, I am not at all a fan of the Blizzard-like style of armour design and I think it looks goofy, but it's clearly meant to evoke power, badassness, scariness, looking "cool" etc. (even if you don't think it does look cool -- and I don't -- it's clear that this is why it was designed that way). Whereas sexy armour is not drawn for the female warriors to look badass, but to be titillating.
Skyler White is awesome, actually.
The hell are you talking about?
A Link to the Past
Banned
The problem with Breaking Bad's female characters is that TV-viewing audiences hate female characters who meddle with the affairs of the male protagonist so much that they threatened to kill Anna Gunn. That's the "TVGate", responding to the trashbags who made these threats. :v
TharpDaddy
Member
Eh I don't think people hated Skylar because she was a woman (i might be wrong) but because of her attitude. The kid who plays Joffrey in Game of Thrones also got a ton of flak for being a character people loved to hate.
EmpressInYellow
Banned
The male protagonist who, let's remember, is lying to his family, cooking meth, and destroying the lives of pretty much everyone he comes in contact with.
So, yeah, I'm willing to say that's more of an audience issue than a character one.
A Link to the Past
Banned
People didn't love to hate Skyler, though. People hated Andrea, people hated Lori, people (fewer people, but a non-trivial number of people) hated Maggie from Fargo, people hated Skyler. It may happen with male characters, but it's significantly more problematic how female characters are addressed and criticized.
That was my point. :v
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I think from a moral position everyone thought Skylar was being the bad guy or the "bitch" while Walt was being looked at as a "hero" despite being a liar and killing so many people to get to where he was at. Joffrey was a dick through and through so it was ok to express pure hatred towards his character.
ZackieChan
Member
I'm way late to this, so I'm gonna edit out my response. Don't want to get into a fight.
EmpressInYellow
Banned
I know! I was just agreeing with you.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Annnnd somebody had to bring up GG lol. Just because somebody disagrees with these points do not make that person a pro-GG. Your mental leap is hilarious. You seem that you do not want to discuss differing opinions, with your logic, GAF would turn into an echo chamber, or dare I say, a hive mind.
So please stop accusing people you disagree with with bannable offenses. People have been having a civil discourse for 40 pages here whether you like it or not; no need to shit on that by vale accusations.
allotheabove123
Banned
1) You're inadvertently treating "male" as the default. It's not about a game "benefiting from having women", it's that it doesn't benefit from not having women.Don't you realize that? The point isn't to add women to meet a "quota". It's to treat women as people. And 50% of people just so happen to be women. Women inherently bring with them different experiences, different opportunities, and different inspiration for creativity. And not just as love interests for men.
Thats true, women are people and do have different experiences. Meaning that when implemented into games then you're bound to have a different experience. Thats obviously true. I'm just saying that if the creators don't want to add female characters, they shouldn't feel bad about that. Sarkesian is suggesting that more female characters should be added. I'm saying that if game creators want to then they should go right ahead, but only if they really want to. Forced inclusion seems like the wrong way to handle things.
2) Men with bulging muscles are power fantasies for men, not men as sex objects for women. It's not like you'll find women attracted to most of the bulky men in Gears of War and such. Women in lingerie is just treating women as sex objects for men, not power fantasies for women. That's the difference.
You can't say that for sure. Just like how you can't say that running around in lingerie isn't a power fantasy for some women. People have different perspectives on this stuff. There is no way to say for sure either way.
Maybe if the vampires from twilight were in most games you'd have a point, but that's not the types of male representation you're referring to here.
The intent is irrelevant. Power fantasy or Sex object, its still exploiting physical characteristics for some intended purpose. You can't criticize one without criticizing the other. Both are totally fine if you ask me, but its not like there is a big difference in how these things play out.
5) She's talked about this too. But women of color are by far the most marginalized, and hence are most deserving of getting their fair shake at representation.
Agreed.
8) Why not? Because that's all that most creators ever do! It's a trope, and it's fucking boring. Developers should stop doing this because it's utterly boring, predictable, and ends up being stupid, childish, and usually pretty offensive too. By not doing so, they instantly open up room for more creative characters and more differentiation from their competition.
That holds true for most of the things you say should be "up to the creators". Of course it should be up to the creators! She's not saying it shouldn't! The entire problem is that the majority of creators are being boring and doing the same things with women, so if they explore alternatives, they instantly give themselves an advantage over their competition in terms of representation, creativity, potential, and even audience.
I agree that games should try to differentiate themselves from others to avoid being stale and boring but really? Sexualized female enemies? Thats boring? I can't even tell you the last game I played with sexualized female enemies. Maybe as a boss fight or a villain or something, but as far as standard enemies go... I can't think of anything. I'm not saying it should become standard or anything but I don't agree that its been done to death.
More importantly, if you want games to be taken more seriously as an art form (as you directly state), you should actually understand gaming's limitations currently inhibiting its growth as such. Gaming's tendency toward boring tropes is not helping things.
I honestly couldn't care less if they're taken more seriously as an art form or not. It would be nice, but I can't bring myself to care if the general public doesn't except them as art, they are. Boring tropes do suck though. I'm not going to disagree with that, but imo gaming's limitations have far less to do with boring tropes than they do with lazy/rushed developers releasing broken games, lack of focus on gameplay and the general content with mediocrity.As far as boring tropes go, they're certainly a factor in gaming's limitations, but they aren't the number one problem. At least as far as I'm concerned they aren't.
Thats true, women are people and do have different experiences. Meaning that when implemented into games then you're bound to have a different experience. Thats obviously true. I'm just saying that if the creators don't want to add female characters, they shouldn't feel bad about that. Sarkesian is suggesting that more female characters should be added. I'm saying that if game creators want to then they should go right ahead, but only if they really want to. Forced inclusion seems like the wrong way to handle things.
2) Men with bulging muscles are power fantasies for men, not men as sex objects for women. It's not like you'll find women attracted to most of the bulky men in Gears of War and such. Women in lingerie is just treating women as sex objects for men, not power fantasies for women. That's the difference.
You can't say that for sure. Just like how you can't say that running around in lingerie isn't a power fantasy for some women. People have different perspectives on this stuff. There is no way to say for sure either way.
Maybe if the vampires from twilight were in most games you'd have a point, but that's not the types of male representation you're referring to here.
The intent is irrelevant. Power fantasy or Sex object, its still exploiting physical characteristics for some intended purpose. You can't criticize one without criticizing the other. Both are totally fine if you ask me, but its not like there is a big difference in how these things play out.
5) She's talked about this too. But women of color are by far the most marginalized, and hence are most deserving of getting their fair shake at representation.
Agreed.
8) Why not? Because that's all that most creators ever do! It's a trope, and it's fucking boring. Developers should stop doing this because it's utterly boring, predictable, and ends up being stupid, childish, and usually pretty offensive too. By not doing so, they instantly open up room for more creative characters and more differentiation from their competition.
That holds true for most of the things you say should be "up to the creators". Of course it should be up to the creators! She's not saying it shouldn't! The entire problem is that the majority of creators are being boring and doing the same things with women, so if they explore alternatives, they instantly give themselves an advantage over their competition in terms of representation, creativity, potential, and even audience.
I agree that games should try to differentiate themselves from others to avoid being stale and boring but really? Sexualized female enemies? Thats boring? I can't even tell you the last game I played with sexualized female enemies. Maybe as a boss fight or a villain or something, but as far as standard enemies go... I can't think of anything. I'm not saying it should become standard or anything but I don't agree that its been done to death.
More importantly, if you want games to be taken more seriously as an art form (as you directly state), you should actually understand gaming's limitations currently inhibiting its growth as such. Gaming's tendency toward boring tropes is not helping things.
I honestly couldn't care less if they're taken more seriously as an art form or not. It would be nice, but I can't bring myself to care if the general public doesn't except them as art, they are. Boring tropes do suck though. I'm not going to disagree with that, but imo gaming's limitations have far less to do with boring tropes than they do with lazy/rushed developers releasing broken games, lack of focus on gameplay and the general content with mediocrity.As far as boring tropes go, they're certainly a factor in gaming's limitations, but they aren't the number one problem. At least as far as I'm concerned they aren't.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The only reason why we've had civil discourse is because what Anita said is so uncontroversial - and yet, there are posters who inexplicably are able to find a reason to consider literally all of her points bad. And when I see the same pattern I saw in the GG thread, I'm going to point it out. I'm pretty sure GAF would do fine without people saying stuff like "Anita can't criticize the industry until she's made a game" or "you shouldn't add more black characters just because."
EDIT: Looks like this needs restating...
The male power fantasy of looking strong is not diminished even if everyone says you don't look strong. If people said Arnold in his prime wasn't strong, then I would probably take the fact that he looked like a god over their opinions.
This "power fantasy" of running around in lingerie doesn't have ANY of that. Lingerie would make a woman feel more attractive, but in large part, a person's attractiveness - and this is especially true for women - is determined by others. A power fantasy cannot and should not be able to be diminished by means of something that's completely out of your control.
Dice//
Banned
Yeah, again, women's representation on television being more limited "fun police" or what have you. You get the motley crew of [male] weirdos, then "the chick" who tends to be more level-headed; calming the group down when they're acting up. Its changed quite a bit, but it's still honestly letting guys get more of the fun.
I always liked Borderlands for its female character dichotomies, hell some of the chicks were the craziest of the bunch in that world.
AlimNassor
Banned
None of those female characters aside from Skyler, are well written.
jim-jam bongs
Member
He and Totalbiscuit had an extended mutual masturbation session on Twitter the other day which was cringe inducing.
Honestly, that point was basically code for "stop making women's tits and arses jiggle around like bowls of pudding".
A Link to the Past
Banned
And yet Skyler indisputably is hated the most of all those characters. So it stands to reason that for that particular audience, the greatest character of her type would still suck.
Now you are changing your wording. You previously stated that those who disagree with every point are GG; now you say nah I just see the same pattern. Fact: pattern != proven. I see a "pattern" of Sony fanboys sometimes in a few threads; it does not mean OMG SONY GAF!!111!!!
Again, your logic is hilarious. I say let the mods decide who is GG and who isn't instead of us jumping to conclusions.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Wait...I've been reading through the thread, I must've missed the previous time you stated this, but...if people say arnold in his prime wasn't strong, you would disregard those opinions because he is strong. But if this is true, then why is a women being sexy/attractive determined by others? If a woman herself feels she looks attractive and sexy, then shouldn't that be enough?
Yeah, Skylar as a character kinda sucked until the end when she started going along with what Walt was doing. Walt was the charisma in the show, of course people are going to hate the people who go against him. But she really did turn a leaf when she threated what's his ugly face. Dunno where you get that people hated her because she was a woman. People liked Aunt Marie.
(Edit-Thinking back on the show, I remember hating Jesse during certain parts when he was being a straight up asshole.)
AlimNassor
Banned
I won't disagree but, the others are well deserved in their hate.
Clockwork5
Member
I think she means " less shitty for some women"
I think her bullet points are fine but must she continue to attempt to speak for 50% of the human population or is her assumption that women unanimously agree with her views unequivocally accepted?
I think her bullet points are fine but must she continue to attempt to speak for 50% of the human population or is her assumption that women unanimously agree with her views unequivocally accepted?
The call for practicality is a constant argument that i personally hate, since it's more often than not completely absurd and can lead to tasteless results.
However since i also think that bikini armors are (99.9% of the time) absolute trash, i think that the point doesn't lie in "practicality" but in solid and consistent art direction.
Bikini Armor is Skyrim is shit, because nothing about that world's art direction and visual design, suggest the logical existence of a metal bikini for a female warrior, and although the game doesn't aim for any historically accurate realism, it's still a style down to earth enough, to demand somewhat logical cover for the body of males and females alike.
By the same token, something like Alexander, which plays by completely different [design] rules, basically requires a certain level of abstract sexualization in their armor designs (regardless of gender):
And a normal looking "practical" armor would look like shit in it.
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I made a similar argument in the thread about Marvel commissioning Milo Manara a Spider Woman cover.
The idea itself of asking an erotic artist for a cover was very stupid (since Marvel should be moving away from senseless sexualization, not toward it), but people trying to "fix it" by normalizing the girl's proportions, were applying a really blind concept of neutering something with a personality, into a bland rendition of a vaguely less sexual cover, removing any resemblance of identity in the process.
It's not about having an anatomically realistically bending spine or an historically accurate armor.
It's about staying true to a solid art direction, which is something 99% of the bikini armor games do not do.
All they're concerned about, is to have the male look as "cool" and as badass as possible (to a fault), and the female look as pornographic as the rating allows.
That's not even worth calling art direction, at this point, and it's rightfully put on blast, but it should be done starting from that position, instead of narrow concepts like practicality and realism.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Quote where I said that disagreeing with every point made you a GGer, or don't reply. I have a feeling you'll either not reply, reply without the quote, or quote a post of mine only to have me point out that you didn't read it.
EDIT: That said, yet again, a person needs to have serious issues with women if they find "make more diverse women" and "have more women in general" are disagreeable things.
Because that's how society works. Generally, the power of attractiveness is the ability to make people respect you or fawn over you. An attractive person could wake up one day and discover that a different facial structure, a different body type, a different skin colour, a different age, a different breast size, a different voice, etc. is the 'it' thing for what people look for in women. If no one finds a person attractive, then by the definition of the word, the person doesn't attract anyone. This is why it's not a proper power fantasy, because a power fantasy should never depend on others and should be dictated by personal strength and ability. In society, being physically powerful never goes out of style, but if no one finds you attractive, that has a huge negative impact on the power of attractiveness.
Dice//
Banned
A really, REALLY easy way to eliminate sexism in some small way is to just give random roles in TV, film, books, games, etc. to a female. Make an NPC female knight in a fantasy game along with the usual male knights. Make a female warrior, make a male cleric. These "small roles" that shouldn't have to really matter but can change perception in even small ways (what's an ocean but many drops?) Don't think of it as a gender thing, especially in fiction, it doesn't HAVE to follow real life patterns and it'd be easy enough to implement. It doesn't have to mean a game is completely recreated because a few girls were added. Fang in FF13 was originally supposed to be a guy. That turned out fine. Females don't necesarily have to be different from men. I doubt lines of dialogue would (nor should) be added so she can talk about hair and makeup (the same way we don't see guys in games talking about sports and cars).
Men and women can save the world, men and women can be vulnerable and afraid, men and women can also play games.
True. Personally, I like a handsome face and a nice smile. But this is sort of the inherent problem about sexual perceptions is that they aren't the same for men and women and men are much more easily pandered too, often in a degrading and unrealistic way for women.
I think the point is that various sizes of people exist. Men don't HAVE to have 200 lbs of muscle to be deemed handsome (I doubt anyone will poorly review a game because its lead guy didn't have abs if the game itself is good); nor do women need to have giant breasts and tiny waists. Small breasts exist, girls with larger bums exist. The point is, there IS wiggle room here, for both the boys and the girls, and I doubt the merit and score of a game is lost because the character is not Sports Illustrated versions of "fit" and perfect.
The Suikoden mermaids having some very generous thigh proportions and a tiny chest, and I actually like that (having a similar tiny chest and larger thighs):
THe suikoden series in general having a TON of unique characters to create also feature amazing variations of body types. Fat, short, small, skinny, thick, muscular, duck person, etc.
Dude...you have a persona avatar. If you play JRPGs, there is a minimum of one sexualized female enemy per game. I don't even know how you can pretend this isn't a thing.
Minority representation would definitely be better appreciated. I can't be the only bleeding-heart white girl who feels weird when most shows barely fit a ethnic minority in other than the token one.
To some it matters. If you're half-hearted about the issue, why bother this long passage at all. It matters to me because I've been a gamer my whole life and yet I have to fight on the internet (blagh) for women to be better represented because there's only so many I feel I can relate to, or (even MORE rarely) play as.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I don't see anything wrong with Maggie. She was very much a well-rounded character (no pun), she represented a body type not seen in leading women on TV often, and she regularly accomplishes things by herself (for the most part), in spite of the obstacles in her way.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
When you have an industry that caters to boys and that includes sexism, concerns like this are transparent in their trolling.
She's speaking about women's portrayals in media, not for them. Please name one thing in her list that any woman would have a serious problem with.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
First, It's Cidney, get it right. Second, this isn't something that is gonna happen all at once nor are all devs gonna fall in line. Some will take this to heart and others will do what they always do. Plus Square is a Japanese company so I'm not sure if they've heard of Anita.I think her list is completely reasonable.
But then its not being heard, clearly as we've seen with Cindy in FFXV
A Link to the Past
Banned
First, It's Cidney, get it right. Second, this isn't something that is gonna happen all at once nor are all devs gonna fall in line. Some will take this to heart and others will do what they always do.
Dice//
Banned
As dumb as the show can be, I'm loving 'The Mindy Project'. A show that stars a chubby professional Indian girl looking for love.
As a woman, speaking for myself (and I think a few girl gaffers --- and boy gaffers!!): Yes.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I've not gotten into The Mindy Project, but I really like Kaling, so I want to watch and support it
superdeluxe
Member
Good points in the list.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I gotta be honest Super Macho Man is almost making this NSFW.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Isn't it great?
EmpressInYellow
Banned
I've been talking to him on Twitter about Anita's work. He's been polite and willing to talk, but the perspective he's coming from is so alien to me that I'm not even sure I understand the basic axioms.
Speaking more broadly, that's been my experience with a lot of people who more or less dismiss her work outright. If someone takes issue with this point or that point, that's one thing, but the people who just say "Nope, nothing to see here"? I just don't get it.
Demoskinos
Member
That's a-ok if that's what she wants out of video games. Pretty reasonable list of suggestions. Here is my problem with Anita. Its like she expects this stuff she wants to change to disappear entirely. Fact is it won't there is always going to be a market for that stuff. She also has to realize its going to be a gradual change and this change is already happening. There is more diversity than ever in games. Every other medium has its niches for everyone and gaming should be no different.
The problem isn't that there are games where the female characters are sexually pandering to the male audience. The problem is that the industry is still changing and morphing. The gradual changes aren't entirely apparent yet. But when stuff like Gone Home is getting mainstream press coverage I think that shows sparks of the industry going in the right direction. I think Anita would be better served in her goals by finding women in the industry and sharing their stories with the world. Showing that there ARE women having positive experiences and making a impact in the industry.
I'm not going to hold my breath on that though.
The problem isn't that there are games where the female characters are sexually pandering to the male audience. The problem is that the industry is still changing and morphing. The gradual changes aren't entirely apparent yet. But when stuff like Gone Home is getting mainstream press coverage I think that shows sparks of the industry going in the right direction. I think Anita would be better served in her goals by finding women in the industry and sharing their stories with the world. Showing that there ARE women having positive experiences and making a impact in the industry.
I'm not going to hold my breath on that though.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
There's definitely women on gaf that will quite often disagree with her, including a mod.
However, that list is mostly inoffensive, so that might be different.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I said that the combination of the rash of Juniors disagreeing with all points, including "better representation of women and POCs", was what made them GGers. The statement in and of itself was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it was based in seriousness, because this happens in basically every thread that discusses topics like these.
Why would they disagree? They'd probably disagree on her view on Bayonetta-liked stuff - a lot of feminists disagree with her too - but most of her points are that there should be a greater variety of the kinds of women that appear in video games.
EmpressInYellow
Banned
I'm not really sure where you get that from. I certainly don't see a lot of that in her work.
Besides, even if she wants, it's not going to happen, so I'm not sure what the danger is. There's lots of stuff I'd love to see go away entirely, but I'm well aware the chances of that are pretty slim.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
He said saying they are bad, not disagreeing with them.
There's a difference between sexism and trying to play Devil's Advocate to sound smart.
wat
where
when has she ever said anything remotely close to this, ever, in the history of her being involved with video games
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