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[Dice//]

There's definitely women on gaf that will quite often disagree with her, including a mod.

However, that list is mostly inoffensive, so that might be different.

Maybe discussing the trope videos in particular

Spoiler

(I'd be lying if I thought helping a girl in need isn't at least a LITTLE sweet in some ways, I just hate when it's followed by said damsel continuously being useless --- like Princess Peach or Zelda quite often are)

, but the list is HIGHLY innocuous or, in some ways, not really "game changing". Better representation should not affect the core game or a player's experience if it's done well enough. I'd like to think people adoration for The Last of Us's Ellie isn't a coincidence. And frankly, it could benefit BOTH men and women.

wat

where

when has she ever said anything remotely close to this, ever, in the history of her being involved with video games

Anita's bad rap precedes her? :S

 

[Riposte]

I'm not really sure where you get that from. I certainly don't see a lot of that in her work.

Besides, even if she wants, it's not going to happen, so I'm not sure what the danger is. There's lots of stuff I'd love to see go away entirely, but I'm well aware the chances of that are pretty slim.

Think all the terrible desires one could justify with the concept of "yeah, but it probably won't happen, so don't mind it".

In any case, such things don't need to be "eliminated" (as in some elaborate book-burning scenario to make the whole thing sound unbelievable), they can be shamed or marginalized.

 

[joshcryer]

The list is practical and common sense but I don't think it would apply to the vast majority of stylistic choices for "hardcore" videogames. Take "making more female enemies and don't sexualize them" and apply it to an FPS.

The list is unlikely to have any impact and I'd argue aspects of the list are the basis for most discussions within designer groups until the copy-testers get a hold of it and start saying they would like stuff to have more pop to it.

In the end the market will decide, but I'd be surprised if those practical guidelines aren't already part of the designing process. Would be interested if a designer could put some input here and say how it works.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Why would they disagree? They'd probably disagree on her view on Bayonetta-liked stuff - a lot of feminists disagree with her too - but most of her points are that there should be a greater variety of the kinds of women that appear in video games.

I think it's more the combative tone than anything, but yes, I don't think they have an issue with calls for more variety.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Scantily clad women do have mainstream appeal with even women.

Whenever the Victoria's Secret Fashion show airs, my newsfeed is littered with girls tuning in.

They don't admittedly seem like gamers, but maybe someday if the market is broadened. I don't think you can make a blanket statement that sexualized women is shitty for women.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Scantily clad women do have mainstream appeal with even women.

Whenever the Victoria's Secret Fashion show airs, my newsfeed is littered with girls tuning in.

They don't admittedly seem like gamers, but maybe someday if the market is broadened. I don't think you can make a blanket statement that sexualized women is shitty for women.

Victoria's Secret is aimed at women, sexualized women in games are not.

 

[Clockwork5]

When you have an industry that caters to boys and that includes sexism, concerns like this are transparent in their trolling.

She's speaking about women's portrayals in media, not for them. Please name one thing in her list that any woman would have a serious problem with.

Her list is literally things that would make games less shitty for women. As in, she is speaking for women.

Also, I don't speak for others so I will only say I could see why a woman such as the lead character designer of Bayonetta 2 would have a serious problem with Anita's litmus test for proper women's wardrobe in a video game. Not that she has a problem with it. I don't know if she does and neither does Anita.

 

[4Tran]

The list is practical and common sense but I don't think it would apply to the vast majority of stylistic choices for "hardcore" videogames. Take "making more female enemies and don't sexualize them" and apply it to an FPS.

Why would that be difficult? It's not as if women soldiers don't exist.

The list is unlikely to have any impact and I'd argue aspects of the list are the basis for most discussions within designer groups until the copy-testers get a hold of it and start saying they would like stuff to have more pop to it.

In the end the market will decide, but I'd be surprised if those practical guidelines aren't already part of the designing process. Would be interested if a designer could put some input here and say how it works.

There are already games that implement these suggestions. However, there are also still developers who unconsciously make their games uncomfortable for some women to play. The idea is to get these ideas applied more widely.

 

[Dice//]

I think it's more the combative tone than anything, but yes, I don't think they have an issue with calls for more variety.

Huh? Her tone? So there's "definitely women on gaf that ... disagree with her" because she's got a bit of 'bite'?
I'm not trying to be presumptuous of these girls, I'm sure they have their reasons (hell I'm a pretty outspoken feminist and I don't agree with everything Anita says, this list being probably her least controversial thing), but sexes can be 'sexist' against their own or indeed enjoy parts of what their gender can dictate. Like anything, there are degrees of feminism, and Anita can be pretty up there.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Her list is literally things that would make games less shitty for women. As in, she is speaking for women.

Also, I don't speak for others so I will only say I could see why a woman such as the lead character designer of Bayonetta 2 would have a serious problem with Anita's litmus test for proper women's wardrobe in a video game. Not that she has a problem with it. I don't know if she does and neither does Anita.

No, she is saying that having more varied designs for women doesn't hurt anyone and helps a lot of people who are looking for that kind of variety.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Maybe discussing the trope videos in particular

Spoiler

(I'd be lying if I thought helping a girl in need isn't at least a LITTLE sweet in some ways, I just hate when it's followed by said damsel continuously being useless --- like Princess Peach or Zelda quite often are)

, but the list is HIGHLY innocuous or, in some ways, not really "game changing". Better representation should not affect the core game or a player's experience if it's done well enough. I'd like to think people adoration for The Last of Us's Ellie isn't a coincidence. And frankly, it could benefit BOTH men and women.

A conversation I had with one of said gaffers basically came to the conclusion that "it shouldn't be shoe-horned in if it's not the intent of the creator or the work". And as said, some don't like the combative tone and the increasingly vitriolic scope of the discussion when they just want to play games, though that's not necessarily Anita's fault.

But no, better representation in general is far from a negative, though whether it affects a core game or player experience is going to be a case by case thing I'd say.

 

[4Tran]

A conversation I had with one of said gaffers basically came to the conclusion that "it shouldn't be shoe-horned in if it's not the intent of the creator or the work". And as said, some don't like the combative tone and the increasingly vitriolic scope of the discussion when they just want to play games, though that's not necessarily Anita's fault.

But no, better representation in general is far from a negative, though whether it affects a core game or player experience is going to be a case by case thing I'd say.

Most of the suggestions in this thread are so innocuous that they'd barely affect anything. What do you find egregious?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Most of the suggestions in this thread are so innocuous that they'd barely affect anything. What do you find egregious?

I was responding to a post that answered Anita speaks for all women gamers. It wasn't about the list.

 

[Dice//]

A conversation I had with one of said gaffers basically came to the conclusion that "it shouldn't be shoe-horned in if it's not the intent of the creator or the work". And as said, some don't like the combative tone and the increasingly vitriolic scope of the discussion when they just want to play games, though that's not necessarily Anita's fault.

But no, better representation in general is far from a negative, though whether it affects a core game or player experience is going to be a case by case thing I'd say.

I argue that with the people who are involved with FF15. Square has DEFINITELY not been averse to including females in the main cast and has for the longest time, introducing highly memorable ones, strong ones, and even had the lead the way a few times.
Even as a feminist, I'm totally for giving FF15 a "free pass" of sorts for their lack of female in-party since the series is generally not too terrible with how they DO represent females or giving them lime-light....

Spoiler

taking dips here and there, of course....*sigh*. FFX-2 being a bad example of how men see women more than women would, the stiff writing definitly doing no favours.

 

[Clockwork5]

No, she is saying that having more varied designs for women doesn't hurt anyone and helps a lot of people who are looking for that kind of variety.

That is not what she said though.

 

[A Link to the Past]

That is not what she said though.

What did she say? Can you quote it?

 

[Dice//]

Welp, time to close down NeoGAF, then.

I giggled x)

 

[Demoskinos]

wat

where

when has she ever said anything remotely close to this, ever, in the history of her being involved with video games

Directly? No of course not but the way she has reacted to things some times gives me that impression of her. I had this exact conversation with a lady friend of mine today who has worked in the industry and we came to nearly the same conclusion on this which tells me I'm clearly not the only one who interprets a lot of what she says this way.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I argue that with the people who are involved with FF15. Square has DEFINITELY not been averse to including females in the main cast and has for the longest time, introducing highly memorable ones, strong ones, and even had the lead the way a few times.
Even as a feminist, I'm totally for giving FF15 a "free pass" of sorts for their lack of female in-party since the series is generally not too terrible with how they DO represent females or giving them lime-light....

Spoiler

taking dips here and there, of course....*sigh*. FFX-2 being a bad example of how men see women more than women would, the stiff writing definitly doing no favours.

I don't know if FF is the best example in this discussion as, while female representation isn't the absolute best ever, its got a pretty sizable female fanbase. Hell, I've heard guys and girls alike say FF15's all-male cast and their designs is pandering to the fujoshi market, an argument I've heard about past designs in the series as well, as they can cover pandering for both sexes depending on who you ask, whether it be a male power fantasy or light sexualization elements targeted toward women.

But there may be a cultural discussion to have there as well.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

Think all the terrible desires one could justify with the concept of "yeah, but it probably won't happen, so don't mind it".

Well, yes; value-neutral concepts, when used in service of bad things, are bad. I agree.

In any case, such things don't need to be "eliminated" (as in some elaborate book-burning scenario to make the whole thing sound unbelievable), they can be shamed or marginalized.

I kinda don't get the shaming angle, honestly. Rockstar seems to be doing pretty okay. Who are these people who have the power to shame developers into compliance? What is the mechanism through which this "shame" actually influences them? Is it fear of impact on sales? A genuine feeling of wrong-doing?

 

[BobbyRobby]

Victoria's Secret is aimed at women, sexualized women in games are not.

Then what about the women who cosplay as video game characters that are aimed at men?

There are a lot of girls who like the sexy characters.

I think the solution is more variety, not abolishing the sexy designs.

 

[Orayn]

Then what about the women who cosplay as video game characters that are aimed at men?

There are a lot of girls who like the sexy characters.

I think the solution is more variety, not abolishing the sexy designs.

Nobody's calling for an abolition of sexy designs, just saying that a better balance of character designs would make the environment more welcoming.

Remember, it's a list of some things developers *CAN* do, not an absolute decree of every possible thing that all developers *MUST* do.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Then what about the women who cosplay as video game characters that are aimed at men?

There are a lot of girls who like the sexy characters.

I think the solution is more variety, not abolishing the sexy designs.

Well okay, but that doesn't change that VS is made for women and many video game women are not.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I always liked Borderlands for its female character dichotomies, hell some of the chicks were the craziest of the bunch in that world.

Patricia Tannis is my BFF.

Directly? No of course not but the way she has reacted to things some times gives me that impression of her.

So, she never actually said this, and you're just going by your imagination instead of reality. Okay then!

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Victoria's Secret is aimed at women, sexualized women in games are not.

Periphery Demographic. The work's worth is not necessarily determined by its intent regarding target audience and whatnot. I mean, just look at My Little Pony.

 

[4Tran]

I was responding to a post that answered Anita speaks for all women gamers. It wasn't about the list.

But this is a strawman to begin with. It's entirely possible to speak on the behalf of a group even if there are members within that group who may not agree with you. As it is, Sarkeesian is speaking more on the behalf of women gamers who have problems with the depiction of women in games. However, it's not a stretch to say that women gamers in general would benefit if her ideas became more widespread.

 

[Dice//]

Directly? No of course not but the way she has reacted to things some times gives me that impression of her. I had this exact conversation with a lady friend of mine today who has worked in the industry and we came to nearly the same conclusion on this which tells me I'm clearly not the only one who interprets a lot of what she says this way.

This list itself is innocuous though. Just about EVERYONE wins if we include better representation of various peoples.

(I also shouldn't have to say this, but one anecdote about a "lady friend" isn't that much to go on... women can be sexist against women and even men can be sexist against other men). Anita is "aggressive" (somehow) because sometimes politeness doesn't always work for messages; she 'constantly' pushes for her cause because that's what she's been working to do and I doubt she'll talk about geology another day because THIS is her field.

She's never wanted to ELIMINATE, she's just wanted better representation. The blacks on Gaf similarly want better representation, not to eliminate the whites from games (but that still doesn't stop it from being a huge debate).

Her "seeming" like she wants to get rid of these things is just poor understanding of her material from your part.

 

[Roto13]

Maybe discussing the trope videos in particular

Spoiler

(I'd be lying if I thought helping a girl in need isn't at least a LITTLE sweet in some ways, I just hate when it's followed by said damsel continuously being useless --- like Princess Peach or Zelda quite often are)

, but the list is HIGHLY innocuous or, in some ways, not really "game changing". Better representation should not affect the core game or a player's experience if it's done well enough. I'd like to think people adoration for The Last of Us's Ellie isn't a coincidence. And frankly, it could benefit BOTH men and women.



Anita's bad rap precedes her? :S

Zelda hasn't been useless in like 24 years.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Periphery Demographic. The work's worth is not necessarily determined by its intent regarding target audience and whatnot. I mean, just look at My Little Pony.

Yet the target audience of Bayonetta is... the primary audience of Bayonetta.

 

[Demoskinos]

Patricia Tannis is my BFF.


So, she never actually said this, and you're just going by your imagination instead of reality. Okay then!

A lot of what peoples intentions are and what they actually are saying are never actually spoken. Humans communicate in more ways than just direct verbal communication. Its not my "imagination" its my genuine interpretation of how she reacts to things and chooses to present her ideas. If you don't agree that's fine.

 

[Dice//]

Zelda hasn't been useless in like 24 years.

Oof. Whatever. Agree to disagree. I've argued that shit to death, but I'm afraid I don't count her 'sideline' contributions as being particularly useful besides being a sprinkle of magic when things got a bit dull.

I don't know if FF is the best example in this discussion as, while female representation isn't the absolute best ever, its got a pretty sizable female fanbase. Hell, I've heard guys and girls alike say FF15's all-male cast and their designs is pandering to the fujoshi market, an argument I've heard about past designs in the series as well, as they can cover pandering for both sexes depending on who you ask, whether it be a male power fantasy or light sexualization elements targeted toward women.

But there may be a cultural discussion to have there as well.

Agreed there. Cor Leonis is a handsome motherfucker.

This guy though..... Bleh. Not for me.

I guess that plays into the whole "I doubt they'd have an ugly main character" ideal. Certainly Japan being a big fan of creating very aesthetic and 'beautiful' characters.

I miss FF9 at times like this. Sure Garnet suffered from being the typical beauty despite the rest of the worlds aesthetic (like having awesome hippo people and the Qu race of large...white...chef people with huge tongues), but the looks generally didn't matter as much.

 

[Lime]

I saw on twitter that the co-founder of The Astronauts (Vanishing of Ethan Carter devs) Adrian Chmielarz posted a piece about Anita. He seems to have a lot of criticism towards her work.

https://medium.com/@adrianchm/top-ten-critiques-of-feminist-frequency-726979b690f1

He and Totalbiscuit had an extended mutual masturbation session on Twitter the other day which was cringe inducing

Well, looks like I won't be buying or supporting Vanishing of Ethan Carter when one of the developers is an ignorant and unempathetic sexist.

How much lack of perspective and lack of human empathy do you have to make a long diatribe of criticism against Sarkeesian when she's literally threatened every single day for making YouTube videos. And her points are so basic and milquetoast that it's difficult to disagree with most of it.

Some fucking game developers.

 

[zeldablue]

Zelda hasn't been useless in like 24 years.

I like Zelda.

But she's pretty useless.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

But this is a strawman to begin with. It's entirely possible to speak on the behalf of a group even if there are members within that group who may not agree with you. As it is, Sarkeesian is speaking more on the behalf of women gamers who have problems with the depiction of women in games. However, it's not a stretch to say that women gamers in general would benefit if her ideas became more widespread.

I don't know if that really constitutes a straw man. The original question was:

or is her assumption that women unanimously agree with her views unequivocally accepted

Which was answered with a yes. Using my own anecdotal evidence, I contested that yes.

But yeah, it's nitpicky and borderline off-topic, so I apologize.

 

[joshcryer]

Why would that be difficult? It's not as if women soldiers don't exist.

The examples that exist are Israeli soldiers and Kurds that I can think off-hand (both have women fighters). Do you really want to play a game mowing down women Israeli's or Kurds?

You'd have to create an entirely new universe, and it would not be a typical mainstream affair, it'd be a one off or its own world, a new franchise, and it would be notable, as an FPS, for mowing down women soldiers.

There are already games that implement these suggestions. However, there are also still developers who unconsciously make their games uncomfortable for some women to play. The idea is to get these ideas applied more widely.

Well, I'm talking about certain gameplay types that women are not interested in. According to SURL studies women prefer social while men prefer violent games, women prefer mobile games, while men play on PC. I don't think adding more women enemies in a non-sexualized way is going to make some specific types of violent games more comfortable or interesting for women to play.

I don't think that is the intent of adding more women enemies in a non-sexualized way, mind you, as I think the natural premise is to reduce objectification, which is perfectly fine, and no doubt that will be a trend in mainstream violent video games, if only because it would be a departure from the norm. I honestly blame the last decade of design decisions on 90s kids who grew up on Dragon Ball Z, don't be offended by the broad brush here, but all the styles seem extremely similar. Excess everything, elaborate everything.

But, anyway, don't expect swarms of non-objectified enemy women attacking a you in an FPS any time soon, unless it's a mod or parody of sorts for political reasons. Replacing all the models in a COD game with female characters or something, to make a "statement" about how "disposable" enemy characters are in violent videogames targeted toward men. As an actual mainstream product? No way.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

The examples that exist are Israeli soldiers and Kurds that I can think off-hand (both have women fighters). Do you really want to play a game mowing down women Israeli's or Kurds?

I don't really play war games, but I don't see why not. Or rather, I imagine the controversy would be more about the enemy of choice regarding countries rather than the fact you can kill women, at least if we follow one of the points on Anita's list.

 

[Demoskinos]

This list itself is innocuous though. Just about EVERYONE wins if we include better representation of various peoples.

(I also shouldn't have to say this, but one anecdote about a "lady friend" isn't that much to go on... women can be sexist against women and even men can be sexist against other men). Anita is "aggressive" (somehow) because sometimes politeness doesn't always work for messages; she 'constantly' pushes for her cause because that's what she's been working to do and I doubt she'll talk about geology another day because THIS is her field.

She's never wanted to ELIMINATE, she's just wanted better representation. The blacks on Gaf similarly want better representation, not to eliminate the whites from games (but that still doesn't stop it from being a huge debate).

Her "seeming" like she wants to get rid of these things is just poor understanding of her material from your part.

I dunno when i see her do stuff like tweet her disappointment in the games press for not taking Bayonetta 2 to task instead of praising it I can't help but think exactly that. She totally has a spotlight and a platform to speak on I think she could do more for her cause to shine a light on content and creators that she thinks are positive than spend her time on the negative.

 

[Galactic Fork]

1) You're inadvertently treating "male" as the default. It's not about a game "benefiting from having women", it's that it doesn't benefit from not having women.Don't you realize that? The point isn't to add women to meet a "quota". It's to treat women as people. And 50% of people just so happen to be women. Women inherently bring with them different experiences, different opportunities, and different inspiration for creativity. And not just as love interests for men.
Thats true, women are people and do have different experiences. Meaning that when implemented into games then you're bound to have a different experience. Thats obviously true. I'm just saying that if the creators don't want to add female characters, they shouldn't feel bad about that. Sarkesian is suggesting that more female characters should be added. I'm saying that if game creators want to then they should go right ahead, but only if they really want to. Forced inclusion seems like the wrong way to handle things.

OK. Remember women make up a significant portion of the population... So it's not a matter of not adding them, it's a matter of actively excluding them. Don't act like "adding" women is an action that's superfluous to the default state. Developers have been choosing to exclude women, and I think self reflection on that choice (unconscious or otherwise) is nice. If they continue to make the choice to exclude them, that's their prerogative. Sarkeesian is drawing attention to it and making suggestions.

By suggesting women characters only be made when needed, you are saying men get to exist just because, with no particular need.

(Challenge: In your response, use "not exclude" instead of "add" if you make counterpoints that use that word.)

 

[Riposte]

Well, yes; value-neutral concepts, when used in service of bad things, are bad. I agree.

I kinda don't get the shaming angle, honestly. Rockstar seems to be doing pretty okay. Who are these people who have the power to shame developers into compliance? What is the mechanism through which this "shame" actually influences them? Is it fear of impact on sales? A genuine feeling of wrong-doing?

Conceptually, it is fairly simple: One side says "There should be less of this" (e.g., it's disgusting, wrong) and another says "No, there shouldn't". This also takes the milder form of "this should not be respected" vs. "yes, it should". How this is applied comes down to the (active, deliberate) shaping of culture by changing what's accepted (e.g., pornography is not accepted "artistically", and occasionally morally). Note that there is often a moral impetus behind the struggle, whether it be for something like "artistic freedom" or preventing "harmful representation".

When someone says something like "yeah, but it couldn't really happen", it basically means "don't pay attention to or comment on my objectionable beliefs until they are the reality". Rockstar's (or any organization with much, much less power) current situation is irrelevant. There's simply no benefit of letting bad ideas slide. So, when one admits to desiring "there's lots of stuff I'd love to see go away entirely", then they should be taken at their word - those are the ideals at play and most individuals involved in this situation make it no secret they are working towards their ideals. If that sounds not only bad, but maybe downright offensive to you, it should be treated as such. Anything else is an attempt at obscuration. To go and then say "yeah, but this thing I just said isn't what I really want" is at best confusing.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

Victoria's Secret is aimed at women, sexualized women in games are not.

You're deluding yourself if you think that Victoria's Secret's advertising campaigns aren't also aimed at men who are in relationships with women.

 

[4Tran]

The examples that exist are Israeli soldiers and Kurds that I can think off-hand (both have women fighters). Do you really want to play a game mowing down women Israeli's or Kurds?

You'd have to create an entirely new universe, and it would not be a typical mainstream affair, it'd be a one off or its own world, a new franchise, and it would be notable, as an FPS, for mowing down women soldiers.

I don't think you know very much about this subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military_by_country

Well, I'm talking about certain gameplay types that women are not interested in. According to SURL studies women prefer social while men prefer violent games, women prefer mobile games, while men play on PC. I don't think adding more women enemies in a non-sexualized way is going to make some specific types of violent games more comfortable or interesting for women to play.

Why do you make these assumptions? Even if FPS games aren't played by massive numbers of women, women still do play these games. Moreover, have you ever thought that it isn't just women who are interested in seeing better representation?

I don't think that is the intent of adding more women enemies in a non-sexualized way, mind you, as I think the natural premise is to reduce objectification, which is perfectly fine, and no doubt that will be a trend in mainstream violent video games, if only because it would be a departure from the norm. I honestly blame the last decade of design decisions on 90s kids who grew up on Dragon Ball Z, don't be offended by the broad brush here, but all the styles seem extremely similar. Excess everything, elaborate everything.

But, anyway, don't expect swarms of non-objectified enemy women attacking a you in an FPS any time soon, unless it's a mod or parody of sorts for political reasons. Replacing all the models in a COD game with female characters or something, to make a "statement" about how "disposable" enemy characters are in violent videogames targeted toward men. As an actual mainstream product? No way.

None of these sound like very significant objections. I don't really play FPS games so I'm not very familiar with them. However, the last one I played a decent amount of had female enemies.

 

[Fishious]

Well, I'm talking about certain gameplay types that women are not interested in. According to SURL studies women prefer social while men prefer violent games, women prefer mobile games, while men play on PC.

I'm curious, do you have a link to the study? I'm currently trying to gather info on gaming demographics since it's really valuable in these sorts of discussions. The one I've been linking today from EEDAR, a video game research and consulting company, shows that genre preference doesn't actually differ that much between men and women. In a lot of the cases it looks like the top five genres per platform (divided between mobile, handheld, and console) are often the same, just in a slightly different order. Going just by this I wouldn't say women are much less interested in shooters for example.

You are right though that it seems the PC space is the place where the largest imbalance exists. The thread about the study is here.

I dunno when i see her do stuff like tweet her disappointment in the games press for not taking Bayonetta 2 to task instead of praising it I can't help but think exactly that. She totally has a spotlight and a platform to speak on I think she could do more for her cause to shine a light on content and creators that she thinks are positive than spend her time on the negative.

Good news! It seems Anita's planning two new series. One about men and masculinity and the other about positive examples of women in games.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Well okay, but that doesn't change that VS is made for women and many video game women are not.

Yeah, I'm just highlighting the problem of letting one women speak for all. A lot of women like scantily clad women, and even the ones aimed at males. Their existence is not shitty for all women.

Also, I think it is important to look at Twilight. As far I've seen, it has been skewered by feminists, but you cannot deny it has massive appeal with women.

How would feminists react to a game with a similar plot and themes? Would they have the same complaints? Would they try to prevent it from being released as is? In doing so, they'd deprive the market of a game that would attract more women.

Not all women identify as femisists. If you are doing market research, you should listen to feminists, but you cannot just take their word alone.

 

[zeldablue]

^^^ This is true. Most women are extremely sexist towards themselves and peers. :\

Wait...I've been reading through the thread, I must've missed the previous time you stated this, but...if people say arnold in his prime wasn't strong, you would disregard those opinions because he is strong. But if this is true, then why is a women being sexy/attractive determined by others? If a woman herself feels she looks attractive and sexy, then shouldn't that be enough?

Beauty is determined by society. It is extremely subjective and has shifted many times over the past millennia and across cultures. So...yeah, it's determined by others. If someone is muscular than they are muscular, that's objective. Beauty is subjective in nature but heavily influenced by what culture values as beautiful.

I think a lot of people have problems with epistemology and confuse their socialization with factual truths?

 

[Dice//]

Dear lord, stop using Twilight as an example. Pick like Harry Potter, or you know something that isn't being laugh with as much as it's laughed at.

Not all women are feminists, sure, but they most DEFINITELY don't ALL like Twilight either.
:/

 

[The Technomancer]

The examples that exist are Israeli soldiers and Kurds that I can think off-hand (both have women fighters). Do you really want to play a game mowing down women Israeli's or Kurds?

Honestly yeah, if only because I'd like to see if controversy over mowing down female foreign soldiers might shine a spotlight on how jingoistic and occasionally racist just mowing down foreign soldiers in general can be

 

[BobbyRobby]

Dear lord, stop using Twilight as an example. Pick like Harry Potter, or you know something that isn't being laugh with as much as it's laughed at.

Not all women are feminists, sure, but they most DEFINITELY don't ALL like Twilight either.
:/

I didn't say they all liked it. I said it has massive appeal. It does.

 

[joshcryer]

I don't think you know very much about this subject:

Replace Israeli and Kurd in the list... it really doesn't matter. And don't blame me for not Googling and then making a huge list, I was giving an example. I can't find attacking any of those countries with female fighters appealing at all, even in a fictional setting.

Why do you make these assumptions? Even if FPS games aren't played by massive numbers of women, women still do play these games.

It's not assumptions, it's studies done by SURL using publicly available gaming data. The point is better representation wouldn't somehow make them want to play violent games. And I said that's not the intent of it.

Moreover, have you ever thought that it isn't just women who are interested in seeing better representation?

Seems you glossed over my post. I said that poor representation I think is due to styling from the art styles of the people who grew up then, we didn't get Barbie looking normal until recently, I am sure that trend will continue with regards to both male and female representation in videogames. The trend is a move away from that 90s excess styling and toward a more minimalist and realistic style.

None of these sound like very significant objections. I don't really play FPS games so I'm not very familiar with them. However, the last one I played a decent amount of had female enemies.

There are many games that feature women zombies. Bethesda's games obviously have women enemies but not sure if that'd qualify as FPS. Bioware's stuff... actual military women? I do not know about that, I can think of ARMA where you can play as a woman character.

But no, I'm not making any significant objections here, I think the markets will decide and the obvious trend is toward a more realistic styling without the overly obnoxious "designer choice" stuff. At least in the mainstream.

I'm curious, do you have a link to the study? I'm currently trying to gather info on gaming demographics since it's really valuable in these sorts of discussions.

http://usabilitynews.org/video-games-males-prefer-violence-while-females-prefer-social/

I don't know why their numbers differ so much from yours.

Honestly yeah, if only because I'd like to see if controversy over mowing down female foreign soldiers might shine a spotlight on how jingoistic and occasionally racist just mowing down foreign soldiers in general can be

I can see the appeal in that but I suspect it would be used more as a statement about the "disposability of men" by certain types.

 

[4Tran]

Yeah, I'm just highlighting the problem of letting one women speak for all. A lot of women like scantily clad women, and even the ones aimed at males. Their existence is not shitty for all women.

Also, I think it is important to look at Twilight. As far I've seen, it has been skewered by feminists, but you cannot deny it has massive appeal with women.

How would feminists react to a game with a similar plot and themes? Would they have the same complaints? Would they try to prevent it from being released as is? In doing so, they'd deprive the market of a game that would attract more women.

Games similar to that already exist, but they tend to fly under the radar so barely anyone even notices - check out the entire Otome game genre. However, if they were just like Twilight, and they were more prominent, why wouldn't they garner the same kinds of criticism?

However, your assumption that feminists would try to keep it from being released is completely unfounded. How much effort was put into stopping the release of Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey? Or towards the films? You're basically talking about an illusionary issue.

 

[rjcc]

Yeah, I'm just highlighting the problem of letting one women speak for all. A lot of women like scantily clad women, and even the ones aimed at males. Their existence is not shitty for all women.

Also, I think it is important to look at Twilight. As far I've seen, it has been skewered by feminists, but you cannot deny it has massive appeal with women.

How would feminists react to a game with a similar plot and themes? Would they have the same complaints? Would they try to prevent it from being released as is? In doing so, they'd deprive the market of a game that would attract more women.

Not all women identify as femisists. If you are doing market research, you should listen to feminists, but you cannot just take their word alone.

...what?