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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
If you check the equipment throughtout the game, every single piece related to the Church, Mensis, Cainhurst, Executioner, Choir or Yahar'Gul and grave diggers has the lowest resist to madness.
While the hunter's pieces have some of the highest resists to madness.
It would make sense that people that actually worship gods in some form are more vulnerable to getting mad.
On another note, I still think that the old hag does not die from overdosing on her own sedatives, but just gets smashed by a monster on the way to getting more items for YOU.
While the hunter's pieces have some of the highest resists to madness.
It would make sense that people that actually worship gods in some form are more vulnerable to getting mad.
On another note, I still think that the old hag does not die from overdosing on her own sedatives, but just gets smashed by a monster on the way to getting more items for YOU.
I guess that settles it. Thanks! I totally missed that trophy text.
PensivePen
Member
I knew there would be an element of it based on what pre-release material I saw but I'm genuinely impressed by the depth to which the concept is taken. It is a genuine cosmic horror story, not just in the designs of the creatures but in the overall tone. I had suspected there was an element of this to the story way back in Demon's Souls but wasn't certain if I was just reading to much into the naming of certain things. But Bloodborne basically confirms what I thought back then was true as well, which makes it doubly great.
I don't understand the Vileblood/Executioner lore.
Logarius has his covenant, the Executioners, and his servants like Alfred go around and kill Vilebloods. Meanwhile, Logarius himself is protecting the last living (everlasting) Vileblood queen behind his throne with his crown of illusions.
Now, why is he protecting her?
And then you give Alfred the invitation to Cainhurst, he kills the Vileblood queen and still cheers for his master Logarius, even though he just killed the last Vileblood behind the throne in his own master's castle. At this point he has completely lost it anyway, but did he ever stop to think "why is the last Vileblood in the fortress of my own covenant?!"
Did Logarius kill her before but saw that she was immortal, thus sealing her behind his throne and never telling anyone about it? Would people really stay under his order if they saw that the covenant was a failure because they couldn't kill the very queen of Vilebloods, Annelise?
Logarius has his covenant, the Executioners, and his servants like Alfred go around and kill Vilebloods. Meanwhile, Logarius himself is protecting the last living (everlasting) Vileblood queen behind his throne with his crown of illusions.
Now, why is he protecting her?
And then you give Alfred the invitation to Cainhurst, he kills the Vileblood queen and still cheers for his master Logarius, even though he just killed the last Vileblood behind the throne in his own master's castle. At this point he has completely lost it anyway, but did he ever stop to think "why is the last Vileblood in the fortress of my own covenant?!"
Did Logarius kill her before but saw that she was immortal, thus sealing her behind his throne and never telling anyone about it? Would people really stay under his order if they saw that the covenant was a failure because they couldn't kill the very queen of Vilebloods, Annelise?
Now stick with me here because I'm really gonna take a big, reckless gambit. Is it possible the our Doll in the Hunter's Dream is based on the likeness of Queen Yharnam? (A better picture of her would be great to prove me wrong or right) Dollmakers occasionally used famous people and sometimes royalty as the artistic basis for dolls. A little background:
The Fool's Idol in Demon's Soul is noted to be based on the Queen that was locked in the Tower of Latria and worshipped by the dregs so there is a basis for this. They're not explicitly connected or the same person or anything but is another thematic connection to Demon's Souls.
The Fool's Idol in Demon's Soul is noted to be based on the Queen that was locked in the Tower of Latria and worshipped by the dregs so there is a basis for this. They're not explicitly connected or the same person or anything but is another thematic connection to Demon's Souls.
XANDER CAGE
Member
The connection hits keep on coming.
Remember how you have to kill a guy to get her to stop respawning? Waking-dream doll seems to be a recurring theme here, ha.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
What did that beast even do to your face? What's its purpose? Is it a god? I was hoping for a round 2.
I figured the Wet Nurse was a guardian for the child and that the mother was the bride.
I figured the Wet Nurse was a guardian for the child and that the mother was the bride.
The bag men are known as Snatchers. I think there's an item description that covers their connection to kidnappings in Yharnam? Not sure what kills them off myself.
I don't remember which item it was but I read a description that said that the queen corrupted Logarius somehow. I'm not sure if corrupted is the right word but she did something to him.
I jokingly chalk it up to, "Married couples fight". A married couple in a Souls game does some spooky shit to each other.
Primethius
Banned
Pretty sure they start getting killed after you kill Rom. At first, I thought it was all the zombie enemies that inhabited their HQ but there are a few hunters you encounter near that lamp, so maybe they killed em all off?
cheezcake
Member
It is interesting, there seems to be something we're missing when you read the Crown of Illusions description
So given his name "Martyr Logarius" it seems he sacrificed himself to guard whatever the secret is.
I'd guess the secret is the powerful yet unborn Child of Blood that she carries. We know about it as players but I imagine there's less information in the game world. Her whole aim in bringing bloody terror to Yharnam is to birth that child after all, among other things.
Space or another dimension.
In the true ending, after you beat Moon Presence, you become an enormous dick slug, which the Doll then holds in her hands and strokes lovingly.
Most erotic ending.
Gehrman explicitly tells you in an early conversation you can use the doll for "whatever you want" so....
I think I understand all the alien stuff but what I don't get is the nightmare. Does the whole game take place in one? I assumed that was the case, that this nightmare kept this one particular night of the hunt from ending. However, the game's term for teleporting from the Hunter's Dream to any other locations is "awakening." So what's a dream and what isn't?
In keeping with the Lovecraftian vibes, the lines between reality, dream, other-dimensional states, and madness are purposefully blurry and held together all messy-like. It's certainly the most challenging thing to unpack in this game.
I did consider the hunters at first, but could they really be so effective? Maybe I shouldn't have killed those guys if they're so much better at cleansing the streets.
The complete disappearance of a notable enemy type had such a sinister vibe to it, I expected it to be the result of a shift in the elder god power balance.
My theory about the nightmares is that they are either Yarnham in another dimension or a future in which everything is destroyed and only beasts exist.
XANDER CAGE
Member
It seems like there's some levels to the dream. There's Yharnam, which seems to be the bottom (or top, however you want to visualize it) which is a shared dream nearly everyone seems to be having on the night of the hunt. Then there's the nightmare frontier, which is either where the cosmic beings come from or a purgatory/halfway point of some sort. Then there's the Mensis nightmare, which seems to be a shared nightmare created by the Mensis faithful within the shared Yharnam dream on the night of the hunt, that has successfully captured a Great One as it travels between dreams/dimensions/whatever. We know that the cosmic beings can communicate with and travel to all levels of the dream/dimensions/God this is confusing, because Amygdalas are always present in Yharnam, but only visible with very high insight.
Then there is the Hunter's dream, which you can wake from into the seemingly real world if you pick the first ending.
Much like Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2, it's honestly a bit difficult parsing what is truly part of the story and what is simply left vague for the sake of being vague.
Edit - oh yeah, also chalices
I took the presence of Amygdalas as that they were always there even before the healing church's communication with cosmic beings began, the same way a Lovecraftian protagonist can do nothing but notice the presence of terrible and old cosmic horrors surrounding everyday life once he gets touched by the eldritch.
We aren't close yet. He would need to do more guide stuff, before spoiling such a humongous twist to the story.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I agree, sorry, I think I worded that part poorly. We know the beings can travel between dimensions/dreams, but they can only be seen by the truly "enlightened" until whatever it is that happens post Rom.
The Maiden in Black is super-connected to the Old One, so much so that if you put the Old One to rest, she completely disappears after you assist her in her duty. You receive her soul (given willingly?) after she disappears.
What's interesting is when you kill her in the other ending you receive the Old One's soul, the Beast Soul.
So the Witches of Hemwick just took eyes from their still living prey and plastered them all over their bodies to try and gain better insight? The adds the witches summon during the fight don't even see you until you are near, they just wander aimlessly around posing no threat. Have they been blinded by the witches?
In the Eye rune from Willem in Byrgenwerth, it says Willem was frustrated with the boundaries of the human mind, and that eyes represent the truth that he searched for.
While Willem and his organisation found the truth from one of the Great Ones, Rom, the Witches outside of Yharnam did not have this luck, and just continued to gather eyes as their own way of obtaining the truth?
The nightmare of Mensis and Mergo's Loft is just decorated with eyes everywhere as well, and the Mother Brain has multiple eyes on his body.
Were the Witches on to something?
In the Eye rune from Willem in Byrgenwerth, it says Willem was frustrated with the boundaries of the human mind, and that eyes represent the truth that he searched for.
While Willem and his organisation found the truth from one of the Great Ones, Rom, the Witches outside of Yharnam did not have this luck, and just continued to gather eyes as their own way of obtaining the truth?
The nightmare of Mensis and Mergo's Loft is just decorated with eyes everywhere as well, and the Mother Brain has multiple eyes on his body.
Were the Witches on to something?
cheezcake
Member
Micolash dialogue. "As you once did for the vacuous Rom, grant us eyes, grant us eyes. Plant eyes on our brains, to cleanse our beastly idiocy." It seems like Rom isn't a great one in the same vein as the others, but a student of Byrgenwerth or the School of Mensis who was granted "eyes" by the Great Ones.
But yeh definitely a big theme in this game.
The eyeballs are used in rituals to open up the tombs.
We also know that 'eyes in the brain' is literal as well as figurative.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Well, Rom clearly had SOME kind of, err, luck making contact with a Great One.
Also, Rom is a spider made out of pieces of the Hunter's Dream, right? His body looks like a hunk of land with white flowers on it.
cheezcake
Member
Yeh wow didn't notice that, maybe he was "changed" by the Moon Presence as well. That would imply the Moon Presence is the "Kos" Micolash refers to.
greatestjediever
Member
Its significant, there are many of them, and yes you do fight one of them (and several others will try to kill you too)
So in chronological order, it would appear that some of the key concepts are:
- The Great Ones: A race of elder gods or "old cosmic horrors" in the vein of Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos. They propagate their kind by selecting humans as surrogate mothers, producing lesser monsters and, on rare occasions, new Great Ones. They exist in an alternate dimension, overlapping the human dimension, but hidden from human sight by Rom the Vacuous Spider, who may or may not have been a student at Bygernwerth, but is now something similar to a Great One, maintaining the veil.
- Pthumerians: A first race of men, like the Hyperboreans in other fiction, predating the modern-day city of Yharnam by eons.
- Queen Yharnham, ruler of the ancient Pthumerians, who the Great Ones chose as the surrogate mother for a new Great One. Perhaps the Great One she birthed is the one simply called Moon Presence, which takes the form of the red moon. It appears she became something akin to a vampire or undead, and is the source of the blood that the Healing Church uses to cure the ill and mend the wounded. She is also likely the "holy medium" the church found in the tombs of the elder gods deep beneath the city, and who allowed the church's ruling class, the Choir, to establish contact with the Great Ones.
- Moon Presence: Speculation on my part, but as I said earlier, the Moon Presence might be trying to reproduce itself. It may have brought about the dream-like state Yharnham now finds itself in, including the Plague of Beasts, and the Hunt it necessitates, which would lead to the discovery of a warrior strong enough to serve as a surrogate for the infant Great One. This would explain how it appears to hold dominion over the Hunter's Dream. Of course, by killing Moon Presence, you actually become the infant Great One.
- The Healing Church: Practitioners of the healing ministration of blood transfusions, using blessed blood (presumably from Queen Yharnam, discovered beneath the city). They have also established contact with the Great Ones. The Celestial Emissary would appear to be a diplomat sent by the Great Ones as a liaison with the Healing Church, hence its presence in the church garden. Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos, would appear to be another "visiting dignitary," so to speak, and once Rom is killed, she sets about trying to revive him at her Altar of Despair in the Upper Cathedral.
- Byrgenwerth: An academy set up in the countryside to study findings from the tombs of the elder gods (the Chalice Dungeons, deep beneath Yharnam). They go mad with occult knowledge and start transforming into monsters. Possibly "ground zero" for the Plague of Beasts (speculation on my part). The game states the Healing Church ordered Byrgenwerth closed and sealed off the surrounding forest, hence the name, "Forbidden Woods." Home now only to cultists such as the snake-men, only church officials who know the password can enter this forsaken place. This why you seek out Vicar Amelia in the Grand Cathedral -- you learn the password at her altar.
- Mensis: A school that split off from Byrgenwerth, presumably upon its closure, to continue establishing contact with the Great Ones. They wear cage-like headwear that keeps the Great Ones from outright shattering their mental faculties. They are still mad, however, and seek to birth the new Great One. It would appear that the abomination called "the One Reborn," descended from the red moon of Moon Presence, is perhaps a botched attempt at this. It would also appear they are abducting sacrificial subjects from Yharnham, whisking them off to their Unseen Village, perhaps to serve as potential surrogates for the infant Great One they are attempting to birth.
This hardly covers everything, but these are some of the concepts as I understand them. Feel free to correct.
- The Great Ones: A race of elder gods or "old cosmic horrors" in the vein of Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos. They propagate their kind by selecting humans as surrogate mothers, producing lesser monsters and, on rare occasions, new Great Ones. They exist in an alternate dimension, overlapping the human dimension, but hidden from human sight by Rom the Vacuous Spider, who may or may not have been a student at Bygernwerth, but is now something similar to a Great One, maintaining the veil.
- Pthumerians: A first race of men, like the Hyperboreans in other fiction, predating the modern-day city of Yharnam by eons.
- Queen Yharnham, ruler of the ancient Pthumerians, who the Great Ones chose as the surrogate mother for a new Great One. Perhaps the Great One she birthed is the one simply called Moon Presence, which takes the form of the red moon. It appears she became something akin to a vampire or undead, and is the source of the blood that the Healing Church uses to cure the ill and mend the wounded. She is also likely the "holy medium" the church found in the tombs of the elder gods deep beneath the city, and who allowed the church's ruling class, the Choir, to establish contact with the Great Ones.
- Moon Presence: Speculation on my part, but as I said earlier, the Moon Presence might be trying to reproduce itself. It may have brought about the dream-like state Yharnham now finds itself in, including the Plague of Beasts, and the Hunt it necessitates, which would lead to the discovery of a warrior strong enough to serve as a surrogate for the infant Great One. This would explain how it appears to hold dominion over the Hunter's Dream. Of course, by killing Moon Presence, you actually become the infant Great One.
- The Healing Church: Practitioners of the healing ministration of blood transfusions, using blessed blood (presumably from Queen Yharnam, discovered beneath the city). They have also established contact with the Great Ones. The Celestial Emissary would appear to be a diplomat sent by the Great Ones as a liaison with the Healing Church, hence its presence in the church garden. Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos, would appear to be another "visiting dignitary," so to speak, and once Rom is killed, she sets about trying to revive him at her Altar of Despair in the Upper Cathedral.
- Byrgenwerth: An academy set up in the countryside to study findings from the tombs of the elder gods (the Chalice Dungeons, deep beneath Yharnam). They go mad with occult knowledge and start transforming into monsters. Possibly "ground zero" for the Plague of Beasts (speculation on my part). The game states the Healing Church ordered Byrgenwerth closed and sealed off the surrounding forest, hence the name, "Forbidden Woods." Home now only to cultists such as the snake-men, only church officials who know the password can enter this forsaken place. This why you seek out Vicar Amelia in the Grand Cathedral -- you learn the password at her altar.
- Mensis: A school that split off from Byrgenwerth, presumably upon its closure, to continue establishing contact with the Great Ones. They wear cage-like headwear that keeps the Great Ones from outright shattering their mental faculties. They are still mad, however, and seek to birth the new Great One. It would appear that the abomination called "the One Reborn," descended from the red moon of Moon Presence, is perhaps a botched attempt at this. It would also appear they are abducting sacrificial subjects from Yharnham, whisking them off to their Unseen Village, perhaps to serve as potential surrogates for the infant Great One they are attempting to birth.
This hardly covers everything, but these are some of the concepts as I understand them. Feel free to correct.
You fight one of them as an optional boss. Yes, there are actually multiple such creatures. They're called Amygdala. You can see them on certain buildings once you have enough Insight (a stat you can increase) or after key story events (which also increase your Insight). They appear to be lesser beings in a race of elder gods or old cosmic horrors called the Great Ones, which exist on a plane of reality parallel to (and overlapping) the human plane, but hidden from human eyes by another Great One named Rom the Vacuous Spider (suggested to have once been human himself). Once Rom is slain, in his pocket dimension beneath the lake at a college in the countryside, the "veil" is lifted and the Amygdala are visible, plain as day.
Anyone figured out Ebrietas? When you find her she is mourning/praying over the Corpse/altar of another great one and doesn't attack you until you hit her.
Also the spider with a mans head speaks of his god and departs to find new gods after I killed Amygdala. So might be some sort of covenant there or something.
The lore in this game is amazing.
Also the spider with a mans head speaks of his god and departs to find new gods after I killed Amygdala. So might be some sort of covenant there or something.
The lore in this game is amazing.
This is pretty neat and I agree with a lot of this stuff. We can also note that Queen Yharnam stands outside the door of Mergo's Wet Nurse, all bloodied up. So I figure she's the mother of Mergo, the infant Great One Pthumerians tried to produce. A piece of the Cord claims that Mensis managed to contact Mergo and in the process their brains went stillborn. I guess the One Reborn is their failed attempt to bring Mergo back, maybe? Or perhaps the Moon Presence is Mergo?
XANDER CAGE
Member
Great write up, although I'm not totally convinced on the whole Rom-is-the-veil thing. Sure, the Paleblood moon appears after you beat him, but the story also advances after killing Amelia - her death isn't literally tied to the time of day, it's just that the next story beat happens after you defeat that boss.
What we know about Rom is that he was "granted eyes." Given that his title is Rom the Vacuous, I imagine that he's either entirely braindead after his transformation, only seeing and not processing, or "vacuous" is an insult bestowed on him by Micolash and the other Mensis thinkers.
What I do think lends credit to the Rom-is-some-sort-of-seal theory is the nature of the weird reflection dimension he inhabits, which visually is definitely plausible as a sort of between dimensions barrier.
Thing is, he's not hostile until you attack, at which point he and his crew fight back. If he wanted the veil lifted, he'd simply let you kill him, but if he's there to protect it, surely he'd attack on sight.
Speaking of eyes, even the Doll's eyes have eyes painted on them, as well as other details. I've linked that easter egg (?) in the OT before, but it moves so fast. It really shows how much care the maker of the Doll put into crafting her.
http://i.imgur.com/YoG261P.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YoG261P.jpg
Interesting points, but it seems clear to me Rom is maintaining the veil. Yes, the night deepens, so to speak, after Vicar Amelia, but the "true moon" of the Great Ones only appears after Rom has been slain.
Regarding Rom's behavior, I didn't interpret it as a "lack of aggression," so much as being defensive. Rom would rather not fight you, if only because he's too valuable to the Great Ones. That's why his minions surround him and he continually backs away. He's a foothold for the Great Ones in the human world, a cloaking device that conceals their activities (called "rituals" in the game) from the eyes of men.
Whereas other monsters will go all-out attacking you, the Great Ones don't want to risk anything happening to Rom, so he fights back only in self-defense. Until then, he merely surrounds himself with defenses and backs away.
Alfred talks about it. The executioners went forth to slay the Vilebloods and unfortunately ended up experiencing complete futility in their action. Logarius martyr'd himself in order to save the remainder, which included Alfred, and effectively sealed them off from any further attempts.
An interesting point is that the Vilebloods were once aristocracy and Hunters(they still technically are) with connections with Yharnam, but subsequently relations broke down between them and the healing church(executioners specifically).
I theorize that Annalise and her kin were against the reverence of the Great Old ones and personally sought to grab that power for themselves and place it into human hands. Thus they became the first, outright, opposition to the Healing Church and their ways,