So based on your break down the messengers are the failed attempts by the Mensis attempting to create the one reborn?
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
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So based on your break down the messengers are the failed attempts by the Mensis attempting to create the one reborn?
XANDER CAGE
Member
I'm not so sure. Keep in mind that the game takes place over one night, and there are notes scattered through the game about the Paleblood ritual taking place that night. The Mensis cultists are doing their thang on the night of the hunt, and the way I took it, they just happened to complete the ritual after you kill Rom. The Paleblood moon is what lifts the veil, not Rom. If Rom had anything to do with it, wouldn't the Mensis cultists be running into the lake to kill Rom?
Darryl M R
Member
No, because the Mensis cultists already see the unseen. They even reside in a place called the Unseen Village, lol.
Rom's purpose is to conceal these rituals (those of the Great Ones, and their followers) from the rest of humanity, who are essentially fodder for their attempts to birth new Great Ones.
The Mensis cultists, like I said, are already privy to this. They can already see, and interact with the horrors that Rom conceals from the rest of mankind.
Killing Rom merely allows you to uncover what the Great Ones and their followers could see all along.
Also, there are notes in the game (and NPC comments, iirc) that straight-up say "the spider at Byrgenwerth conceals all manner of rituals."
So is Gehrman working with the Great Ones? Considering that you become an infant Great One after defeating Moon Presence, it seems that that's exactly what it wanted. If you get the "bad" ending, the Moon Presence makes you, in a way, the next Gehrman. I'm guessing at that point, the cycle continues and you wait for another Hunter worthy enough to challenge the Moon Presence. Maybe consuming the umbilical cords makes closer to godhood and without doing so, you can't become a Great One.
XANDER CAGE
Member
The Souls lore isn't much less weird honestly.
The plague of beasts indeed started at Byrgenwrth. It's revealed in some of the Chant descriptions (Beast, I think?). They thought Blood was good, until they discovered that some Blood could be bad/destructive, and the Beast chant was banned.
Basically, they viewed their research on Blood and the elder ones to be good, until they discovered (too late) that some outcomes were truly bad.
OK, good to know. I speculated as much, but it's nice to hear there's direct evidence supporting this in-game.
Gehrman is bound to the Hunter's Dream, as stated in the item descriptions. If he is working with the Great Ones, he's only doing so because there's no other option for him and that resistance is useless in a dream-world controlled by the Moon Presence. He can't leave but gives you the option to (through death in the dream) as a reward for all the work you did. Refusing the mercy makes him peg you as a power-hungry problem hunter to be hunted, which you basically are if you consume Umbilical Cords to become a godhead.
Yeah I figured as much. He seemed to genuinely wanna help you. Is the secret ending really the true ending? I don't see how anyone would even want that.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Yeah, the "bad" ending honestly seems like the best ending. You saw some shit, did some shit, and get the opportunity to fuck off and let someone else deal with Yarnham's shit next time.
I don't believe he's working with them willingly. It's more to establish a status quo for the Hunters in order to address the issue of Beasts.
So discussion and Item quotes suggests that for regular hunters, fighting beasts is just a way of life. The powder kegs are heretical, but so is Yharnam and its Church.
I figure it's a situation wherein Hunters generally have one real adage:
"Kill beasts."
If we believe Djura to be representative of all Powder Kegs, then that sect of Hunters became compassionate to the beasts and chose to ultimately let the plague run its course effectively leaving the beast stricken ineffectual. They also chose to cut themselves off from the dream of hunters.
The Healing Church, and those intrinsically tied with them, in another direction looked to deep into the source of Hunters Power and effectively became a channeler of the mystic powers that enabled the hunt.
The bad ending is a good ending for you.
The true ending is a good ending for humanity.
Hard to say.
I'd add to the whole Gehrman discussion that he says, "It always comes down to the hunters' helper to clean up these sorts of messes" before he fights you, implying that this isn't the first time he's had to challenge a hunter bound to the dream who wants power.
Many arcane items have lore about the relationship between the church and the Great Ones, checking now I see that:
- Augur of Ebrietas says that she was 'abandoned' and the summoning to manifest her partiallly is one of the church's most secret ritual. Apparently communication with great ones is handled through Augurs which are slug-like creatures.
- Call Beyond is another secret rite that church tried to use to reach the 'outer reaches of cosmos' but they managed to only get into 'lofty plane of darkness'.
- Empty Phantasm shell is remains of a slug-like creature that are familiars of the great ones, also known as phantasms. Their slime is still magical.
Also, interestingly, Mensis and the Choir are the two parts that make up the 'upper echelons' of the healing church.
- Augur of Ebrietas says that she was 'abandoned' and the summoning to manifest her partiallly is one of the church's most secret ritual. Apparently communication with great ones is handled through Augurs which are slug-like creatures.
- Call Beyond is another secret rite that church tried to use to reach the 'outer reaches of cosmos' but they managed to only get into 'lofty plane of darkness'.
- Empty Phantasm shell is remains of a slug-like creature that are familiars of the great ones, also known as phantasms. Their slime is still magical.
Also, interestingly, Mensis and the Choir are the two parts that make up the 'upper echelons' of the healing church.
XANDER CAGE
Member
There are also grave markers/crucifixes in the arena you fight him in.
I read some of the stuff here and it motivated me to check out some of the in-game items on my NG+ run.
I noticed on Antidotes that it says they were used (I think by the healing church) in Old Yarhnam to keep people from turning into beasts? And they reference it as paleblood, I think, so i guess when people refer to palebloods they are referring to all beasts?
Also, can someone help me understand essentially what is happening with the Hunter's Dream? I recognize it's not reality, and at the start of the game you're told you're going to experience things as if it's a 'bad dream', but what is reality and what isn't, then? At the end of the game you are offered a chance to 'wake up', so I'm kind of confused about that.
I noticed on Antidotes that it says they were used (I think by the healing church) in Old Yarhnam to keep people from turning into beasts? And they reference it as paleblood, I think, so i guess when people refer to palebloods they are referring to all beasts?
Also, can someone help me understand essentially what is happening with the Hunter's Dream? I recognize it's not reality, and at the start of the game you're told you're going to experience things as if it's a 'bad dream', but what is reality and what isn't, then? At the end of the game you are offered a chance to 'wake up', so I'm kind of confused about that.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Its safe to say that those tall pale humanoids are Pthumerians, right?
Yep. He also is kind of aloof about the whole thing. "Was it the blood, the dream, the hunt that made you crave more power? Ah, I don't give a shit, I'm hunting you." Again, implying that he's seen this over and over again.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
I still can't wrap my head around Dark Souls lore. I can understand certain characters and how they connect with some events, but tying that all up into a cohesive narrative is too much for my brain. I just cant map it out. Bloodborne is very similar. I liked the werewolf hunter Sim the game started out as and I enjoyed the descent into madness in became but I'll never make total sense of it.
Great ride, great game. I'm now a baby slug
Great ride, great game. I'm now a baby slug
I believe there's a note in her room that you wake up in. That suggests she's trying to obtain Paleblood.
Primethius
Banned
Pthumerians are clearly the dudes with the bags. They are super tall and hit like a truck. All Pthumerians in the game are tall like those dudes.
Flawless logic, I know.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
The white clerics have pale skin and black eyes. Same things with enemies in the Pthumerian Labyrinth. Yharnam has as well, and since shes the Pthumerian Queen...
It seems like she can make people into those little blue celestial monsters. How? No idea. Judging from this dialogue, it seems like she's done some experiments on herself too, or at the very least she is in contact with the Great Ones:
Oh, interesting note about Blood in the runes.
Blood is the essence of the formless Great One called Oedon, and his 'inadvertent worshipers' seek blood because of that.
Apparently Chalices are also the way to communicate, and the Choir got into talks with Ebrietas through the Isz chalice that they found in the Pthumerian labyrinth.
Blood is the essence of the formless Great One called Oedon, and his 'inadvertent worshipers' seek blood because of that.
Apparently Chalices are also the way to communicate, and the Choir got into talks with Ebrietas through the Isz chalice that they found in the Pthumerian labyrinth.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
"I ate umbilical cords in order to become a god"
Things said about bloodborne, or by a guy in an insane asylum?
Things said about bloodborne, or by a guy in an insane asylum?
The lady in the clinic (I never remember how to spell her name) seems to be yet another loon worshipping the Great Ones. They were manipulating her to spawn more of their ilk. For a while, this meant using her to use others, the patients she turned into monsters reminiscent of the Celestial Emissary. I see them as half-breeds -- humans with a bit of the elder gods in them. But in a bit of bleak irony, the lady at the clinic, herself, becomes a vessel for the Great Ones, and is beginning to turn into a monster. If you find her in this state, you can kill her and retrieve One Third of the Umbilical Cord (of which there are actually four in the game -- possibly more).
In some weird way it feels abit like Demon's Souls and Bloodborne share many overarching Story elements. Not that they are exactly the same, but the basic overarching points seem to be the same.
Of course gameplay elements are the same, but I am talking more specific story points.
Just a few that came to mind.
- Beckoned to a place for personal reasons the player is forced to become a hunter/slayer
- Trapped in a place were reality is warped. (In Demon's Souls the very fabric of reality was starting to collapse, as explained by the monumental)
- A terrible cataclysm is brought about by Human curiosity and recklessness
- People are slowly driven mad until they are no more than mindless beasts/Huske of their former selves.
- You go out as a Slayer/Hunter to consume the essence of foes (Beasts/Demons)
- The Old one is looking for a special individual in which to extend it's power with.
^-- Just the first things that came to mind, the more I read other peoples posts and what not.
Of course gameplay elements are the same, but I am talking more specific story points.
Just a few that came to mind.
- Beckoned to a place for personal reasons the player is forced to become a hunter/slayer
- Trapped in a place were reality is warped. (In Demon's Souls the very fabric of reality was starting to collapse, as explained by the monumental)
- A terrible cataclysm is brought about by Human curiosity and recklessness
- People are slowly driven mad until they are no more than mindless beasts/Huske of their former selves.
- You go out as a Slayer/Hunter to consume the essence of foes (Beasts/Demons)
- The Old one is looking for a special individual in which to extend it's power with.
^-- Just the first things that came to mind, the more I read other peoples posts and what not.
I wonder how Arianna got impregnated. It's like the Great Ones can plant their seed just by looking at you.
I've highlighted the many shared elements that make a potential Demon's Souls/Bloodborne universe connection impossible to ignore or dismiss. From Beast and Doll Souls to the Soul Arts-less world that logically would have come about from the conclusion of Demon's Souls.
Don't they also have similar white mask THE SCREAM looking faces?
Arianna was a prostitute, so I would imagine one of her clients was not exactly as human as he appeared...
It's quite fucked up, all the ways the Great Ones prey on these people who don't know they're there.
Not any worse than turning into a goose and banging someone out.
That was Zeus, right? And I think it was a swan...
Personally, swans are hotter than Cthulhus
XANDER CAGE
Member
Well, there could have always been small smatterings of beasts here and there. Who knows who else has made contact with Paleblood. Yarnham is just a special case because their meddling was a group effort.
I had a very Ahn'Quiraj feel to Bloodborne's story, if anyone get's the reference. A city/empire built atop the remnants of a long-forgotten god (or in Bloodborne's case, gods), and overtime the essence/whispers of the gods corrupted that which was built a top of them.
Only that, much like all the Souls games, you are an unwitting pawn rather than a conquering raid hero (ala WoW).
Only that, much like all the Souls games, you are an unwitting pawn rather than a conquering raid hero (ala WoW).
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Bloodborne with its Lovecraft influences already has the superior lore.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I've seen some posts on Reddit to the effect that the player character could literally be having a dream, but that doesn't mean the events of the game are unreal. Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne seem to be heavily influenced by Lovecraft's Dream Cycle stories. In both lore, characters, locations, and the role of the player in a video game.
The Dream Cycle involves stories in which mortal dreamers enter the "Dreamlands" via projection while asleep. It has its own kingdoms, geography, and inhabitants many of which are powerful people who tend to use corrupt power to rule but bring about disease and ruin. However everyone gets their own dream-trip and sees the Dreamlands a little differently, depending on what their mind can accept.
In the case of Bloodborne, the blood ministration the player character receives at the start could be seen as a way to force someone to enter a parallel reality through a nightmare, and you're told it will just be a bad dream, don't worry. Perhaps to use people who could be hunters in that reality.
In the case of all the games, the way multiplayer works, visions of other worlds and other players as phantoms, goes with the idea of the Dreamlands. The very act of picking up the controller and playing the game represents you entering your own version of the other world. Catching glimpses of the other dreamers, but never able to fully interact.
I think this version would fit nicely with these games taking place in gothic, eldritch fantasy worlds that are similar to real history in the medieval and victorian eras but with their own continents and kingdoms, beset by ancient gods and cosmic horrors. The player assumes the role of an anonymous traveler in all these games, the way you may have a nonspecific avatar when you are dreaming and require a point of view for experiencing it.
Also, I believe in some Lovecraft stories it is possible for a mortal to physically enter the dreaming world by using rare vortexes in secret places, and that goes with the opening of Dark Souls 2. A person inflicted with some kind of curse is directed to travel to a vortex, finding themselves in a dreamlike world where space and time are distorted. With a history of kingdoms rising and falling because the people there keep fiddling with abominations and dark forces.
The Dream Cycle involves stories in which mortal dreamers enter the "Dreamlands" via projection while asleep. It has its own kingdoms, geography, and inhabitants many of which are powerful people who tend to use corrupt power to rule but bring about disease and ruin. However everyone gets their own dream-trip and sees the Dreamlands a little differently, depending on what their mind can accept.
In the case of Bloodborne, the blood ministration the player character receives at the start could be seen as a way to force someone to enter a parallel reality through a nightmare, and you're told it will just be a bad dream, don't worry. Perhaps to use people who could be hunters in that reality.
In the case of all the games, the way multiplayer works, visions of other worlds and other players as phantoms, goes with the idea of the Dreamlands. The very act of picking up the controller and playing the game represents you entering your own version of the other world. Catching glimpses of the other dreamers, but never able to fully interact.
I think this version would fit nicely with these games taking place in gothic, eldritch fantasy worlds that are similar to real history in the medieval and victorian eras but with their own continents and kingdoms, beset by ancient gods and cosmic horrors. The player assumes the role of an anonymous traveler in all these games, the way you may have a nonspecific avatar when you are dreaming and require a point of view for experiencing it.
Also, I believe in some Lovecraft stories it is possible for a mortal to physically enter the dreaming world by using rare vortexes in secret places, and that goes with the opening of Dark Souls 2. A person inflicted with some kind of curse is directed to travel to a vortex, finding themselves in a dreamlike world where space and time are distorted. With a history of kingdoms rising and falling because the people there keep fiddling with abominations and dark forces.
Yeah it was Zeus. Lots of lovecraftian lore is "what if the Greek gods were kinda hella fucked up aliens?" And then he draws a money's sign on a chalk board. At least that's the way that H.P's pitch goes To his publishers in my mind. It also follows that thing of well what would look like magic to us is just high technology to its creators. So everything that looks like ritual and the like in Bloodborne I see it as some kind of lost knowledge and technology that the great ones themselves no longer have a proper grasp on.
On a side note I feel like there is something about the tonsil stone that we are all missing some how it possibly being a meteorite and it have such a gravitational force that no light escapes it seems really crazy.
I wouldn't actually say you're an unwitting pawn here. You don't really progress anyone's particular agenda, in fact you muck up most of them. If anything I'd say you're much like most Lovecraftian protagonists. An outsider to the current goings ons who manages to fuck up the great ones plans in whatever small way and setting them back a fair deal.
You're definitely not the great hero that stopped it all, but you're more than just some putz dancing to their tune.
So is the origin of them, orr no? Because celestial emissary?
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Def gonna keep up to date on this thread. Ending was...very interesting..