Support NeoGAF

[Chaos2Frozen]

Good video, that's how you do it without coming across as a cynical prick telling people that they shouldn't want their dreams.

We can have all the discussion we want, but at the end of the day I hope that the more reasonable people prevail over the ones pushing conspiracies and the game finally gets made.

 

[Steroyd]

Would have though Jim would have sat on this topic for an extra week.

Weird episode, I agree with his core reasoning behind the iffy side of Kickstarter should major publishers turn to it in order to revive dead franchises, Breath of Fire 6... I mean 7, FUCK YEAH *ahem*, the reason why I don't think a publisher going to kickstarter will work for them is because they need a face, the reason Yooka Laylee worked was because it was the original team that made Banjo Kazooie, Iga fronting Bloodstained and Keiji Inafune appealing to fans to help him make the Megaman game that Capcom sure as hell doesn't want to make, Shenmue isn't the example to draw this point from a potential iffy side though.

Jim fell into the same trap I fell into the day after, I was lead to believe that Sony was funding the rest while Kickstarter was used to gauge interest, that simply is not true, I think alot of people would have been okay with it if that was the situation, because the game now exists and that's what matters, everything Sony said on the E3 stage was as transparent as they could, it is Yu Suzuki's project and Sony's hands off for the most part, the only involvement is pretty much PS4 advertising and ensuring a solid port to take the burden of the dev team like they do with many indies with their pub fund.

It's weird because I think this whole "backlash(?)" is by mere association, Sony gave Yu Suzuki the biggest stage that even mainstream press covers, with an announcement hot off the FFVIIR announcement and the Kickstarter broke all sorts of records in record time, and as it turns out that ended up being a somewhat double edged sword.

Edit: Ah looks like he's going to address what i typed lol.

 

[Abriael]

But you basically just said that there are no ifs because 'everyone wants this game, so can't we just be happy'. Jim raised a bunch of questions about what this could mean long-term for Kickstarter. Is it right for big companies to announce already established series' sequels on Kickstarter in order to gauge interest? What about the slippery slope leading to EA, Ubisoft, Activision etc dropping in Kickstarter reveals at their future E3? Could this lead to the possibility of the big pubs using Kickstarter to simply extract more funds out of consumers, like DLC and Mmicro-transactions before it.

There's no slippery slope.

If EA, Ubisoft, Activision or anyone else want to democratize some of their more risky projects, they're perfectly entitled to.

The users will decide. As they always do on Kickstarter.

 

[Zemm]

Yes, there's even a website dedicated to listing journalists in video games and if they should be boycotted or supported.

Yes. I made a post about it and found out it was a banned site (weirdly I found out about it from a banner ad for the site on GAF).

Wow, people seem to have lost their minds with this game.

 

[Tripon]

How is kickstarter different from a tiered preorder service at the end of the day. That is how I see it but maybe I am missing something

You get your money back for a preorder of a canceled game. Kickstarter is a promise of a game that may or may not come to fruition. And any dollar amount you committed to is not yours to take back once the kickstarter period ends.

 

[Tizoc]

You get your money back for a preorder of a canceled game. Kickstarter is a promise of a game that may or may not come to fruition. And any dollar amount you committed to is not yours to take back once the kickstarter period ends.

Uh if a kickstarer doesn't reach its goal, you are not charged. I've been in a few KS that didn't reach their target and I wasn't charged.
Digital pre-orders on US PSN are generally non-refundable.


Good video, Jim's point about Kickstarter being exploited by publishers is the main thing to take from here.

 

[8byte]

If you enter a thread about a video that raises questions about a topic and exclaim 'I disagree! There are no issues!', then you should probably post why you disagree with said video. Instead you are just using this thread as a soap box to scream about how unfair or upset it makes you that someone is trying to throw a wrench in your hype machine.

Jim basically stirs up controversy here with hyperbole and vague language. There is nothing iffy in nature here.

 

[flkraven]

How is kickstarter different from a tiered preorder service at the end of the day. That is how I see it but maybe I am missing something

This is the mentality that gets people in trouble. Although Shenmue 3 is sort-of too big to fail thanks to it's reveal at the Sony conference, your pledged dollars to any kickstarter aren't guaranteed. You aren't preordering shit. If they fail to deliver, that's it. If the game can't be shipped, you have nothing. If you preorder a game at Best Buy and the game is cancelled, you get your money back.

Not saying this will happened at all with Shenmue, but it is by no means the same as a preorder.

 

[MrHoot]

Just a correction, and a huge one. Suzuki does not own the IP. If that were the case, we may be in a very different situation. Sega granted him permission to use it and Kickstart it.

Thanks for the correction ! I'll change that

 

[flkraven]

There's no slippery slope.

If EA, Ubisoft, Activision or anyone else want to democratize some of their more risky projects, they're perfectly entitled to.

The users will decide. As they always do on Kickstarter.

And when some of their funded projects fall by the wayside and aren't released, like many in-development projects in the past have? I mean, Beyond Good & Evil 2 would have been funded ages ago, but do you think that Ubisoft would be any closer to releasing this game if they had an extra 3 or 4 million to start?

Uh if a kickstarer doesn't reach its goal, you are not charged. I've been in a few KS that didn't reach their target and I wasn't charged.
Digital pre-orders on US PSN are generally non-refundable.


Good video, Jim's point about Kickstarter being exploited by publishers is the main thing to take from here.

Uh if a kickstarter does reach its goal, it doesn't mean it is instantly developed, published, and released.

 

[morningbus]

I wish the level of Sony's backing was clear from the start so we didn't have all this rampant speculation. I fear it is harming the kickstarter, though I do understand peoples fears.

Sony's levels of backing was only unclear to those incapable of parsing PR talk or those who trip over themselves to pat Sony on the back.

The rush to paint Sony as the "good guy" has hurt the kickstarter more than anything.

 

[KaoteK]

Green card said it before I could, how did voting with your wallet work out for dlc? Pre order exclusive content?

Fucks sake we just had a thread on micro transactions in MGS.

Metal Gear Solid!

If that doesn't give at least some pause for thought, I don't know what will.

Anyway, I'm for this kickstarter, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, and I'm glad it happened. I don't see this as a slippery slope, just something to be wary of.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Green card said it before I could, how did voting with your wallet work out for dlc? Pre order exclusive content?

Fucks sake we just had a thread on micro transactions in MGS.

Metal Gear Solid!

If that doesn't give at least some pause for thought, I don't know what will.

Anyway, I'm for this kickstarter, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, and I'm glad it happened. I don't see this as a slippery slope, just something to be wary of

People voted with their wallets. You're just not on the side that "won".

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Curse you Jim Sterling for bringing up some points that might not be brilliant about this. How many Shenmues did YOU make? Oh none? Then how dare you slightly criticising this holy gift from the gods?
Absolutely everything about this is perfect and everybody who says otherwise is a poopy-head

 

[gelf]

Sony's levels of backing was only unclear to those incapable of parsing PR talk or those who trip over themselves to pat Sony on the back.

The rush to paint Sony as the "good guy" has hurt the kickstarter more than anything.

More reason to have been clear in non PR speak from the start.

 

[KaoteK]

People voted with their wallets. You're just not on the side that "won".

Lmfao check out my post history man, see my posts on the Shenmue thread, see who's "side" I'm on.

PS I only game on PS4 and PC...

 

[Jim Sterling]

Curse you Jim Sterling for bringing up some points that might not be brilliant about this. How many Shenmues did YOU make? Oh none? Then how dare you slightly criticising this holy gift from the gods?
Absolutely everything about this is perfect and everybody who says otherwise is a poopy-head

THANK YU SUZUKI FOR ME!

 

[Abriael]

And when some of their funded projects fall by the wayside and aren't released, like many in-development projects in the past have? I mean, Beyond Good & Evil 2 would have been funded ages ago, but do you think that Ubisoft would be any closer to releasing this game if they had an extra 3 or 4 million to start?

If a project fails, and users willingly took the risk to fund it, they would simply pay the consequence for their freely made decision. The publisher would pay as well with image damage and possibly more.

Mind you, actual publishers are much more likely to actually do something about it, and issue refunds, than penniless indies.

That's also because, mind you, the allegation that when a project fails the pledges are simply lost is actually grossly inaccurate.

https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

If you think that any big publisher is willing to eat up the massive PR blunder of taking money from kickstarter pledges and then not release a game without issuing refunds, I don't think your view is very realistic, mind you.

 

[Garlador]

The one difference is if the game gets cancelled you get your money back from a pre order but not from a KS

Which is why I trust people with the talent and skill to finish a game. I believe Shenmue III will happen. The individuals involved are too passionate and talented not to find a way to make it happen.

... Granted, that could be 14 years of false hope speaking.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Lmfao check out my post history man, see my posts on the Shenmue thread, see who's "side" I'm on.

PS I only game on PS4 and PC...

I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just saying that as far as DLC practices go, people voted with their wallets.

 

[Galactic Barret]

I understand majority rules, but would the majority back something like CoD, AC or Madden? No, because yearly iteration sit on store shelves. Most will say " Fuck it, Ill just play/buy 15/BO2/AC:S".

This works for games that we have been waiting YEARS for, not months. These other successful, record-setting KS' were all games/genres that gamers had a serious lack of in the last gen. No one is backing FPS' or TPS' or mobile games.

If anything, this should show publishers that we want different games and genres, and that revisiting the well isn't always a bad thing when go a little deeper.

 

[MrHoot]

If anything, it reminds me of an old kickstarter called "To the death" which was an independant project made by ex Activision and God of War devs, who asked for about 400k (arguably a lot) but still a very fancy cool looking game

But I also remember the huge backlash it got simply because the word "Activision" was on the kickstarter even though it had no affiliation. People were just mad at even seeing activision associated with anything.

So i'm guessing if anything of the like actually happened, it would sink faster than the TOR MMO's credibility

 

[flkraven]

If a project fails, and users willingly took the risk to fund them, they will simply pay the consequence for their freely made decision. The publisher would pay as well with image damage and possibly more.

Mind you, actual publishers are most probably much more likely to actually do something about it, and issue refunds, than penniless indies.

Because, mind you, the allegation that when a project fails the pledges are simply lost is actually grossly inaccurate.

https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

But see, what you said right there is pretty much the big 'if' I have, why I also believe it warrants a simple discussion. If a project fails (or vastly under-delivers, which would mean no refunds would be issued), the risk used to fall squarely on the publishers. They took the risk, while the public rewarded them for a job well done. Now the big pubs see that they can reduce their risk and get rewarded before they've even presented a product (simply an idea).

I'm not saying Kickstarter is impossible nor do I believe it should be eliminated. I am incredibly excited for Yookah-Laylee and I'm thrilled that Shenmue 3 is finally coming out. I just think it's worth dissecting further.

If you think that any big publisher is willing to eat up the massive PR blunder of taking money from kickstarter pledges and then not release a game without issuing refunds, I don't think your view is very realistic, mind you.

Publishers have released games that are broken with terrible framerate, game breaking glitches, save bugs, broken online servers, micro-transactions and free to play mechanics in a full priced game, retailer-exclusive preorder incentives, platform specific dlc, and just about every other bad thing you can think about. And that's just within the last year. This wouldn't surprise me one bit.

 

[hamchan]

This whole Shenmue 3 Kickstarter has been very confusingly communicated I have to say.

 

[KaoteK]

I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just saying that as far as DLC practices go, people voted with their wallets.

Fair enough, thought you were accusing me of being an xbox owner *spits*

Spoiler

I kid, I kid!

 

[Tripon]

Uh if a kickstarer doesn't reach its goal, you are not charged. I've been in a few KS that didn't reach their target and I wasn't charged.
Digital pre-orders on US PSN are generally non-refundable.

We are talking about a game that is already being funded, and again if for whatever reason that game on PSan doesn't come out, you would be refunded. Sony or any other digital platform will likely not allow a company to come to their digital platform with a canceled game.

 

[breakYODAy]

I think Jim did a good job of covering the nuances of last week without shitting on Shenmue 3 or the Kickstarter. Good going Jim!

 

[morningbus]

More reason to have been clear in non PR speak from the start.

I think it was unavoidable. Sony fans (and, to be fair, I think basically any fans of any of the big three) would exaggerate their company's level of support.

The only way to prevent that would to not have announced the kickstarter at a conference, really.

 

[Abriael]

But see, what you said right there is pretty much the big 'if' I have, why I also believe it warrants a simple discussion. If a project fails (or vastly under-delivers, which would mean no refunds would be issued), the risk used to fall squarely on the publishers. They took the risk, while the public rewarded them for a job well done. Now the big pubs see that they can reduce their risk and get rewarded before they've even presented a product (simply an idea).

Yeah. Publishers having a tool to push more risky projects instead of sticking to the Call of Dutys and the Uncharteds.

Sorry. Can't even start finding a way to feel that as a bad thing.

Publishers have released games that are broken with terrible framerate, game breaking glitches, save bugs, broken online servers, micro-transactions and free to play mechanics in a full priced game, retailer-exclusive preorder incentives, platform specific dlc, and just about every other bad thing you can think about.

So have indies. Where's the difference?

Mind you, publishers have also, in most cases, taken responsibility for their problematic releases, either by fixing the issues or even by issuing further compensation.

Publishers have PR departments, which contrary to popular belief is a good thing, as they push to limit image damage by making it right to the customer (which is not to say that they do it out of genuine goodwill, but that's irrelevant). If anything, they're more reliable.

 

[Edag Plata]

Only "iffy" thing I see about it, are people looking for excuses to stir controversy.

The only iffy thing I see how it are the fanboys who try to put people down who question things, even if they are excited for a Shenmue 3 too.

 

[Kathian]

My current concern is if the games more expensive. They've got what 60k people backing and they've already said they haven't budgeted for the kickstarter amount.

If it works though it could be a big thing in the industry.

Only "iffy" thing I see about it, are people looking for excuses to stir controversy.

You know theres a thread over the road that really fits most of gaming side right now.

 

[Extra Sauce]

Can't watch at work but does Jim at least know the latest development about crowdfunding being the main source of financing, and Sony not footing the bill as previously speculated by many?

 

[tuxfool]

Wow, people seem to have lost their minds with this game.

Has nothing to do with the game. It is a GamerGate site, it appears to have gone up in May last year?

 

[Steroyd]

If EA or Ubisoft do it, and their kickstarter is successful, it simply means that enough people like that project for it to get funded, and there's nothing wrong with it.

It could be, imagine if they saw what the Bloodstained kickstarter did with the Kickstarter exclusive cane sword and ran away with it.

 

[breakYODAy]

I think it was unavoidable. Sony fans (and, to be fair, I think basically any fans of any of the big three) would exaggerate their company's level of support.

The only way to prevent that would to not have announced the kickstarter at a conference, really.

Good point. Let's also remember there's going to be some language barrier issues as well, since most funding is probably coming from the Western world. Yu is not a native English speaker, and therefore cannot receive and address all concerns as fast as they are evolving on the internet.

 

[KaoteK]

Can't watch at work but does Jim at least know the latest development about crowdfunding being the main source of financing, and Sony not footing the bill as previously speculated by many?

No he missed those, which makes a small part of the video moot, the rest of it is on point imo.

 

[Shinjica]

It was an undeniably strong E3 2015 last week, with little room for upset. Unless you're a Metroid fan, obviously

Ahah, bravo.

 

[bishopcruz]

Yeah, more research was needed on this one. It's great that he has the annotation, but the main premise of the whole thing is about as iffy as he claims the Kickstarter is. Sony's funding is limited, likely limited to marketing. The $50 million thing is rather disingenuous. Sega is in charge of whether or not Shenmue HD 1 and 2 come out, and a fair bit of this info was out for days.

I see the point of not wanting publishers to sully KS, but it still comes off as rather alarmist.

 

[Crocodile]

Yeah. Publishers having a tool to push more risky projects instead of sticking to the Call of Dutys and the Uncharteds.

Sorry. Can't even start finding a way to feel that as a bad thing.

I mean I mentioned one in my post on the first page - its very easy to get people to put down money on spiritual successors or sequels even if you don't have very much material to show. It's a lot harder to do that for brand new IPs/concepts, especially if you need a lot of money to get them off the ground. Humans, and thus consumers, are much bigger fans of the familiar and well-known than they like to let on

 

[ps3ud0]

I understand majority rules, but would the majority back something like CoD, AC or Madden? No, because yearly iteration sit on store shelves. Most will say " Fuck it, Ill just play/buy 15/BO2/AC:S".

This works for games that we have been waiting YEARS for, not months. These other successful, record-setting KS' were all games/genres that gamers had a serious lack of in the last gen. No one is backing FPS' or TPS' or mobile games.

If anything, this should show publishers that we want different games and genres, and that revisiting the well isn't always a bad thing when go a little deeper.

This would be a nice future if publishers used the demand for genres on KS to think 'well lets make one of those types of game'. I think we are intelligent enough to smell any ruse...

ps3ud0 8)

 

[Mononoke]

Jim Sterling is my personal hero. I didn't agree with any of the criticisms thrown at the KS, and found some of the arguments being used to be ridiculous. About to watch the video though. I always have an open mind to opposite view points.

The one difference is if the game gets cancelled you get your money back from a pre order but not from a KS

Isn't that terms everyone agrees to when pledging? So ultimately it's an individual's choice. I wonder why this makes a corporate company unethical for using KS, when it's okay for other people to.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Honestly the pre-order culture part is the part that bothers me. I've been mighty tempted to back several KSes for games offering backer-exclusive bonuses. I've managed to keep a level head for most of them, fortunately for my wallet, but nevertheless, it's a little annoying to think that, for example, Armello backers get to play as four characters non-backers don't - should I ever get enough interest in the game to to buy it, I may never get to play as a fox, simply because I wasn't at the right place at the right time.

I mean, the distinction between pre-orders and backing have been made abundantly clear in this thread - you get your money back on a failed pre-order, you don't for a failed backing - but it's still a bit of pre-order culture I could do without.

 

[family_guy]

The one difference is if the game gets cancelled you get your money back from a pre order but not from a KS

It's a gamble but if the pricing at retail is $60 and you paid $30, then you come out ahead.

 

[BShadowJ]

Well the video has outdated information, even by Jim's admission, but still it at the very least does highlight that how this project was going to be funded could have (and should have) been transmitted better. The people who have been following the news probably know by now the details of Sony's involvement, but it should have been clearer from the beginning. Hopefully this leads to a greater transparency from the start about funding this sorts of things in the future.

 

[Phat Michael]

I won't back the game, but I will buy it after we know a bit more about it. I don't buy games when we don't know the scope, size or have any details or even concept about it. I still want it to happen though as well as if they could bring out shenmue 1 and 2 prior to its release so I don't have to plug in both my dreamcasts again just to catch up.

 

[*Splinter]

I can't really blame Jim Sterling because the information flying about this kickstarter has been so dispersed that it's really hard to keep track unless you follow a GAF thread or something else of the same calibre regularily.

This is what I have learned though in contrast to what Jim explained:

Well Jim IS the journalist here right? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to do his research before making a video. You found out plenty of information in your own time, why couldn't he do it when it's part of his job?

Interesting topic choice though, Jim usually goes for low hanging fruit but that doesn't seem to be the case here (not that false controversy is any better than easy controversy)

 

[Kinyou]

They should have been more open and transparent with information from the start. I think everyone can agree on that. And the uncertainties probably just hurt the kickstarter.

 

[MrHoot]

. You found out plenty of information in your own time, why couldn't he do it when it's part of his job?

Because I am a sad lonely man who spends all his time on game forums while he has a succesful career ? Don't underestimate my powers

 

[Mononoke]

Well Jim IS the journalist here right? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to do his research before making a video. You found out plenty of information in your own time, why couldn't he do it when it's part of his job?

Interesting topic choice though, Jim usually goes for low hanging fruit but that doesn't seem to be the case here (not that false controversy is any better than easy controversy)

I mean, sometimes information gets dated. That is the dangers of making a reaction video. It happened to him when he made a Jimquisiton against Steam and mods, and it kind of happened here. He does do research. I guess the problem is, sometimes you need to wait longer before putting something out, I guess. Because new info comes out after you've made something.

 

[Exile20]

There's no slippery slope.

If EA, Ubisoft, Activision or anyone else want to democratize some of their more risky projects, they're perfectly entitled to.

The users will decide. As they always do on Kickstarter.

The problem is if pubs have a huge presence on Kickstarter then the whole spirit of it is gone.

And if the consumers decide and they chose to stop kickstarting because Pubs have their hooks in it then KS will fail and we are back to square one dealing with publishers bullshit.