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[Lalalandia]

They should have been more open and transparent with information from the start. I think everyone can agree on that. And the insecurities probably just hurt the kickstarter.

Yup but given that we have a rightsholder, a creator, and an unknown number of investors including Sony there may well be thickets of paper clouding the communication no matter what. What I would like to see is a simple 'if it reaches $X, we'll pay the rest' but odds are there are a few other clauses that could be considered commercially sensitive.

It is a two minds thing on the one hand to reach the pretty high target that seems to be in place for this they needed the splash of an E3 launch but the very nature of what they need to do is so confusing that launch winds up seeming deceptive. Not to mention the whole other debate of do KS projects belong in a production that costs several times their goals to stage.

So yeah great video I'm going to enjoy reading the multiple points of view here.

 

[Lemondish]

It does seem like his views are based on old interviews. After those articles it was clarified that most of the budget is coming from the Kickstarter, and Sony is backing it in a similar manner as to how they're backing other independent games on PS4.

This.

Which makes this late and, by extension, shoddy journalism seeking only to return to a point where this "controversy" could result in clicks.

I'm not quite sure what people thought Kickstarter was for if they're this pissed off about it.

 

[AtomicShroom]

So is Jim, in a sense, implying that trickle-down economics actually do work?

 

[Glitchesarecool]

In the case of this game, I don't think waiting would help immensely. There's something new every day, but the overarching points still stand even with the latest information being missed.

 

[rjinaz]

THANK YU SUZUKI FOR ME!

Huge fan of your work Jim.

You know I don't necessarily agree with all the controversy and this comes from somebody that has no real interest in Shenmue. But that doesn't mean there aren't some valid questions and concerns when publishers are involved with something that equates to more or less to people donating them money.

In the end I think the most important thing is that people get the game that wouldn't have existed in the first place and I think that's what most of the Shenmue fans that will actually buy the game will care about as well since a copy of the game is offered at just $29 and that it's unlikely this kickstarter won't make it to fruition,

 

[Steroyd]

More reason to have been clear in non PR speak from the start.

They were as clear as could be Adam Boyes pretty much said it was an independant project, but because it was on Sony's E3 and on PC/PS4 people started reading between the lines where there was no text.

The only crystal clear way they could have done it was not have it in the conference.

 

[Anfang]

A series that had been dead for 14 years can hardly be called established. The mainstream had no idea what this series was until the reveal. As for the rest it comes down to the same shit that occurs in everything else in life. Something good is used/developed and then some shit heads come along and use it wrongly.

Personally I'm all for it as it could be used to revive dead series that wouldn't have a chance otherwise. It's not hard to avoid ubi and the others.


Edit and it's been made private lol

 

[Durante]

I agree with Jim on the fact that there probably isn't too much to worry about regarding Shenmue, but I also agree with seeing kickstarter as a tool to ultimately get rid of big publishers, rather than something I want them to embrace (and probably extinguish in the long run).

 

[ImBarryScott]

Video's been made private?

 

[Stone Ocean]

The problem is if pubs have a huge presence on Kickstarter then the whole spirit of it is gone.

And if the consumers decide and they chose to stop kickstarting because Pubs have their hooks in it then KS will fail and we are back to square one dealing with publishers bullshit.

Kickstarter pitches fail every day when compared to bigger projects, how is it any different? All pitches have a fair shot, why get hung on stuff like the "spirit" of it?

Also the idea that big publishers will completely crowd out smaller pitches to the point people will just stop backing is silly at best.

 

[jabuseika]

Video's been made private?

Jim tweeted he was changing something in the video...

 

[Kriken]

Video's been made private?

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/612996176871321600

 

[Berna]

Video's been made private?

Full context (read backwards):

 

[Jarmel]

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/612996176871321600

Oh boy.

 

[*Splinter]

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/612996176871321600

lol

Well fair enough I guess

 

[KimonoNoNo]

Coming just after the mega successful Bloodstained KS where IGA openly said that his KS campaign was just a focus test, it just muddied the waters and people assumed that this must be the same.

There was an information vacuum where people were adding 2 and 2 together and getting 5, but I think we should cut the people involved some slack as it was announced at an incredibly hectic E3.

Edit: Good on Jim for going back and redoing this week's JQ (You won't see that hack Kuchera doing the same)

 

[Par Score]

Jim's a good guy, I sure hope he isn't going to let some of the more, er, 'enthusiastic' Shenmue fans get to him.

The original video was a little on the negative side, but that's mostly due to the cluster-fuck of information that was still swirling around when it was made. The price of timeliness.

 

[ImBarryScott]

Full context (read backwards):

Haha. Uh, oh. I get the feeling this is going to be a popcorn video.

 

[batfax]

Aw, man. Did one guy ruin it for the rest of the fans?

 

[inm8num2]

Hmm, looks like I watched the video just before it became private. Curious what Jim will change - I thought he presented a well-thought, balanced argument that while it's understandable to gauge consumer interest before investing into such a project, there's always the risk of setting a dangerous AAA precedent. I don't think that will necessarily happen, though.

 

[Glitchesarecool]

Full context (read backwards):

Oh wow.

Aw, man. Did one guy ruin it for the rest of the fans?

No no, I'm sure Jim was bothered enough by the discrepancies that he felt it wasn't doing a proper job of telling the story. This kind of fan reaction happens with a lot of his videos if you ever dare to read the comments.

 

[Night Hunter]

Hmm, looks like I watched the video just before it became private. Curious what Jim will change - I thought he presented a well-thought, balanced argument that while it's understandable to gauge consumer interest before investing into such a project, there's always the risk of setting a dangerous AAA precedent. I don't think that will necessarily happen, though.

I also thought the video was pretty good aside from the fact that some of the criticism came from outdated information. I was actually glad that he instantly put up some clarification about the funding thing.

 

[Menome]

Aw, man. Did one guy ruin it for the rest of the fans?

That, or one guy's going to make things even better.

 

[flkraven]

Now I'm really curious about the edit. I'd be willing to crowd fund this to make sure it gets released.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Yeesh. Hope Jim doesn't do something hasty based on a bit of shitty criticism.

 

[Steroyd]

Jim's a good guy, I sure hope he isn't going to let some of the more, er, 'enthusiastic' Shenmue fans get to him.

The original video was a little on the negative side, but that's mostly due to the cluster-fuck of information that was still swirling around when it was made. The price of timeliness.

I thought the video was well balanced and got his key point across, it's just that what was being said was on a different wavelength to what we know today.

 

[Zombie James]

Some very good points, no doubt, but I think he missed on one of them: Kickstarter backers get benefits.

Using his example of Beyond Good & Evil 2, yes, Ubisoft could see this as Sony opening the door for them to do the same thing but if they treat it like a glorified, traditional pre-order system where they expect everyone to drop $60, I doubt it would get much traction. The appeal of Shenmue 3 is that it's finally coming... and you can get it for less than $30. No doubt a game of this size and heritage will retail for the full $60 like everything else when it's finished and the majority of backers are getting over 50% off. That's far better for the consumer than any pre-order system I'm aware of. Add in the fact that a big publisher would be throwing their own money into the mix and the chances of the developers taking the money and delivering nothing like a "traditional" Kickstarter drop significantly.

Right now I see more positives than negatives even if big publishers do try and exploit it, but we'll see.

 

[celsowmbr]

Link to the video!.

Private video :/

 

[foxuzamaki]

Interesting, I caught the video before he took it down. gonna be good to see what has changed.

 

[AmuroChan]

They should have been more open and transparent with information from the start. I think everyone can agree on that. And the uncertainties probably just hurt the kickstarter.

I would love for every company to be transparent about their business dealings so that we don't have to speculate and argue with each other on forums, but I don't think that's ever going to change.

Would it be great for fans if Microsoft or Sony just came out and announced how much they paid for Tomb Raider or SFV and release the full details of those contracts? Of course. Are they ever going to be "that" transparent? Highly unlikely.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Well, this seems incredibly stupid. (not Jim)
The game is already funded right? So how would that even hurt it? Does this guys think everybody will back up because Jim brought up some mild criticism?

 

[Percy]

Yeesh. Hope Jim doesn't do something hasty based on a bit of shitty criticism.

Hope not. I know I'd lose a lot of respect for him if he felt the need to resort to something like updating the video just to troll some "salty Shenmue fans".

 

[RoboPlato]

Some very good points, no doubt, but I think he missed on one of them: Kickstarter backers get benefits.

Using his example of Beyond Good & Evil 2, yes, Ubisoft could see this as Sony opening the door for them to do the same thing but if they treat it like a glorified, traditional pre-order system where they expect everyone to drop $60, I doubt it would get much traction. The appeal of Shenmue 3 is that it's finally coming... and you can get it for less than $30. No doubt a game of this size and heritage will retail for the full $60 like everything else when it's finished and the majority of backers are getting over 50% off. That's far better for the consumer than any pre-order system I'm aware of. Add in the fact that a big publisher would be throwing their own money into the mix and the chances of the developers taking the money and delivering nothing like a "traditional" Kickstarter drop significantly.

Right now I see more positives than negatives even if big publishers do try and exploit it, but we'll see.

This is my biggest point in favor of Kickstarters like this. Being able to get a discount or some cool collectables made solely for big fans makes it a much more desirable way of gauging interest than other methods.

 

[Crocodile]

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/612996176871321600

 

[Surta]

The game is already funded right? So how would that even hurt it? Does this guys think everybody will back up because Jim brought up some mild criticism?

The game will scale with the Kickstarter result. Yes, the minimal amount for it to exist has been funded ($2m), plus some stretch goals already, but the fully realized game that fans want to see will take at least $5m, if not more.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Lol he wasn't even that critical. He made some points in favor but showed some mild concerns. Some fans are just to passionate some times.

 

[Broank]

I mean they were very specific and clear at the conference that it was Susuki's project and they were just giving him an opportunity to announce it.

It seems that is what it is despite people throwing around speculation Sony was providing additional funding.

 

[Glitchesarecool]

Well, this seems incredibly stupid. (not Jim)
The game is already funded right? So how would that even hurt it? Does this guys think everybody will back up because Jim brought up some mild criticism?

It's baseline funded, but it needs to get to 10mil to be "truly funded." So the game is happening, but not the complete vision of the creator unless it gets all the way up.

So fans who strongly believe in the KS are freaking out about it relaxing when they don't seem to realize that EVERY kickstarter goes slow in the middle, when there's not much new being updated and the final hours aren't in sight. Therefore any criticism could be taken as something detrimental to the game's "true" nature, if it affects people who are on the fence about funding it.

 

[creatchee]

Jim's point about how companies take something inherently (or at least at face value) good and bastardizing it for profit is at the heart of the matter for me. Chances are if a a company is doing something, it is for their own well-being - customer fulfillment is a latent function rather than a manifest one. Sony putting Shenmue at its E3 Conference was done because it benefitted Sony - not because it will be a blockbuster game that sells 10 million copies (it won't), but because of the press mileage that they rightfully assumed that they would get out of it. People were (and all are) talking about how awesome their conference was, and, invariably, the Shenmue Kickstarter is a large factor in their declarations.

Was it wrong? No. Could it have been handled better? Absolutely. Does it set a slippery slope as a precedent? I believe so. If you don't think that other companies have taken note of the success of the Kickstarter and how it all came to be, you haven't been paying attention to the video game business. I expect us to be crowdfunding old favorites with corporate sponsorship at a higher rate over the next few years. But hey, if we're getting games we wouldn't normally have gotten, it's not all that bad, right? I for one am excited to
prepurchase more games two years in advance.

 

[hamchan]

Lol he wasn't even that critical. He made some points in favor but showed some mild concerns. Some fans are just to passionate some times.

I think some fans have just gone crazy and are scared that even a tiny bit of criticism or concern would damage the kickstarter.

 

[Jim Sterling]

New video rendering. Don't worry, it's nothing too major. I just removed the outdated stuff and provided a better explanation of Sony's involvement.

What the Shenmue Defense Force *won't* like is the fact that the fresh edit allowed me to rail on Suzuki's "actually guys, we reeeeally need ten million" development. It's not like I am unfair or linger on it too much, but I'm glad I got to add it.

Episode should be available soon. Please understand.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/612996176871321600

--

Caught the video before it went private. Jim's on point, as per usual.

Spoiler

Hehehe at the Federation Force bit in the intro.

 

[flkraven]

New video rendering. Don't worry, it's nothing too major. I just removed the outdated stuff and provided a better explanation of Sony's involvement.

What the Shenmue Defense Force *won't* like is the fact that the fresh edit allowed me to rail on Suzuki's "actually guys, we reeeeally need ten million" development. It's not like I am unfair or linger on it too much, but I'm glad I got to add it.

Episode should be available soon. Please understand.

 

[Lady Siara]

Yeesh. Hope Jim doesn't do something hasty based on a bit of shitty criticism.

I could see him criticizing the rabid supporters that are stunting discussion. Those that are looking for a funding controversy are just as bad as the brazen fans telling everyone to stop discussing it entirely. He's usually pretty balanced so I doubt he would dissect Shenmue 3 without a good reason.

With the video now private, this thread is a bit awkward. Jim is peering down at us, pantsless, licking his lips in anticipation while we wait for an updated video.

 

[Stone Ocean]

New video rendering. Don't worry, it's nothing too major. I just removed the outdated stuff and provided a better explanation of Sony's involvement.

What the Shenmue Defense Force *won't* like is the fact that the fresh edit allowed me to rail on Suzuki's "actually guys, we reeeeally need ten million" development. It's not like I am unfair or linger on it too much, but I'm glad I got to add it.

Episode should be available soon. Please understand.

That Suzuki line was kinda scummy, I'll give you that much.

 

[Spaghetti]

on okay video. though adam koralik's shenmue 3 video gives a more up to date account of what the kickstarter is about.

i don't think it's really a door for big publishers to get in on kickstarter, at least not in this case. shenmue 3 is still being self-published through ys.net and sony's involvement starts and ends with some help creating the ps4 version and some advertisement in the same way they do for other indies.

shenmue 3 is under exceptional circumstances for an exceptional game. nobody wanted it made besides yu suzuki and the fans. and now we're getting it.

when you see jim's proposed notion of a beyond good and evil 2 kickstarter from ubisoft, then i guess there are more questions to be asked, because for all intents and purposes it looks like ubi was actually making that game. shenmue 3 never got close to happening in 14 years.

edit: good on jim for doing a new video, though people read into that 10 million line too much. he was asked what he'd do with more money, he gave an honest answer with a figure attached.

 

[Night Hunter]

New video rendering. Don't worry, it's nothing too major. I just removed the outdated stuff and provided a better explanation of Sony's involvement.

What the Shenmue Defense Force *won't* like is the fact that the fresh edit allowed me to rail on Suzuki's "actually guys, we reeeeally need ten million" development. It's not like I am unfair or linger on it too much, but I'm glad I got to add it.

Episode should be available soon. Please understand.

I may not part of the Shenmue Defense Force, but a big fan overall. Your points seem fair though.

 

[JonathanNemo]

It's baseline funded, but it needs to get to 10mil to be "truly funded." So the game is happening, but not the complete vision of the creator unless it gets all the way up.

And really, I take that AMA comment in two ways.

One, that for this game to be the Shenmue III Suzuki dreamed of, it needs to be the best funded Kickstarter to date. Dreams do that.

Two, we're still getting a damned good game with several novelties at $5 million, and a perfectly fine-if-straightforward AM2 adventure game at $2 million.

It's not going to be a Shenmue like anything we've seen so far, but then again, what could be in 2017? Unless it's a retro throwback somesuch sort of thing.

 

[Jim Sterling]

With the video now private, this thread is a bit awkward. Jim is peering down at us, pantsless, licking his lips in anticipation while we wait for an updated video.

This is how I browse NeoGAF at any time of day, to be fair.

 

[140.85]

New video rendering. Don't worry, it's nothing too major. I just removed the outdated stuff and provided a better explanation of Sony's involvement.

What the Shenmue Defense Force *won't* like is the fact that the fresh edit allowed me to rail on Suzuki's "actually guys, we reeeeally need ten million" development. It's not like I am unfair or linger on it too much, but I'm glad I got to add it.

Episode should be available soon. Please understand.

Did he really say that though? He was just describing the funding level that would enable his dream game. Not that they need that much. At least that's what it read like to me.