im down to Kickstar this only if Trolly has William Defoe's face and says various lines at random
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Jimquisition (June 22nd, 2015) - Shenmue 3: The Good, The Bad, And The Iffy
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
im down to Kickstar this only if Trolly has William Defoe's face and says various lines at random
Hi, you might be new to the world of video production! Let me and my friend Flopsy Flopflop The Floppy Rabbit help you out!
"Hi, I'm Flopsy Flopflop, I'll be your special friend!"
I hope this helps you out. <3
I smell an extra special Patreon tier (which I would back in a heartbeat).
Hey now, I never said mistakes don't happen. I'm not the one who brought out the puppet.
Red Blaster
Member
slippery slope fallacy par exellence
why the fuck would ea and activision waste time with kickstarters on hit franchises
Yarny of course. I hear Flopsy is a no-good cheat at boxing and feeds his opponents to pigs, but he's also a huge coward
*gives a carrot to Mr. Flopflop*
Only if it goes all [Adult Swim] half way through and then ends in an extreme zoom up Miniature Fantasy William Dafoe's face screaming 'HEY KIDS, WANA DIE?!' (moutg rendered in syncro-vox) at the end of each such video.
It could be Jim Sterling's version of TFS's episode breakdown only with less video and more breakdown.
See above. Video pulled due to ongoing story.
Glitchesarecool
Member
joecanada
Member
well firstly , this project is not a kickstarter by a big publisher or company for that matter... Yu got permission from Sega to do a kickstarter, he has some agreements with Sony for distribution /marketing , whatever.
So as of now it is like any other kickstarter with a guy trying to fund a project and he brings outside partners in for support... I'm not sure why people are talking this up as though Sony is begging people for money, they don't even own the IP.... why would they put a ton of money into it when there's a limited ways they can even be repaid.
However sure big publishers could go the route you state, we need X amount of kickstarter for X amount of maps/ options / whatever.... but I don't see why they would bother, when they can just make DLC for everything nowadays anyway.... And I don't know anyone who would give money to Activision on kickstarter , but if there are people willing to throw money away in that fashion, nothing you can do will stop them anyway, they will be throwing their money at horsearmor or 10 dollars for a golden gun in COD ....
Here's the real shocker V_Arnold: They're already holding people's money hostage.
PREORDER NOW FOR EXCLUSIVE GUN BLAZE DLC HOT MAP PACK SKIN $5 DOWN.
Well.. I guess that's not holding it hostage. You can cancel your pre-order. I guess you could cancel your pled........ well crap, once it's funded you're out of luck. It's cool though.. EA will hold on to that $50 you gave them for the next 2 years. They promise it's going to be a great game. Scouts honor and stuff.
And no, none of that is that Shenmue's fault. The argument isn't about funding games on Kickstarter. It's about major publishers using Kickstarter as 1) a pre-order mechanism, and 2) a game-funding platform. If Yu Suzuki had launched this Kickstarter and not had Sony backing the game, I don't think you'd see anyone speaking in negatives here.
I'm not entirely sure I understand your comment about season passes. You think those will suddenly go away in my example here? They won't.
because they can? because GameStop makes bank on $5 pre-orders and they'd be idiots to not let you give them $50 to sit on for 2 years before a game ships? they'll jazz it up real nice for you too. you're part of the development process! we're setting up a forum and everything and promise unprecedented engagement with the community.
Truely Yarny is all that is good in the world. Praise be to Yarnym first of his name, King of the Yarndals and the fur men, lord of the electronic kingdoms and protector of the wool.
Flopsy Flopflop The Floppy Rabbit is pretty good too.
sechsterangriff
Member
He never said that, Jim. What he did during his AMA on reddit was a breakdown of what he can achieve depending on the funds available. All he said was that with 10 million he can make a true open world, and that's what the fans are now striving for.
About securing other partners while Kickstarter campaigns are on-going, that is hardly a a new thing. I don't remember them disclosing details about those partnerships either. Why the commotion just now? No wonder Shenmue fans are being over protective, they've waited 14 years for this.
Also, this being Sony third party relations team I'm whiling to bet their involvement isn't much different from every other deal they have with indies to have their console debut on PlayStation.
AmuroChan
Member
I don't disagree with that. The counter-argument is that those details do get revealed in other dealings or industries. For example, when Sony bought Gaikai. We know exactly how much they paid for the acquisition. In sports, we know exactly how much teams pay their athletes, down to even specific clauses they may have in the contract.
AmuroChan
Member
I think that transparency is more crucial when it comes to smaller, first-time Indie developers who has no track record of any kind. They could take your money and disappear as we've seen on KS. However, I think it's a safe bet that Yu Suzuki isn't going to do that. He's a known quantity in the industry and even if he wants to, there's no way he can just take the money and disappear.
Clearly Yu doesn't have any experience with Kickstarters or else this would probably have been mentioned when the project was launched, but this post is spot on.
He can make a game for $2 million but it will just be story-based versus an open world. That was his response to fans asking him if the game would incorporate an open environment like Shenmue 1 & 2.
Jim Sterling
Member
I am aware, but it's still leverage. The pressure from fans to upgrade pledges and the fears of "Shenmue Lite" are pretty out of hand. I'm not a fan of the way that was dropped.
Glitchesarecool
Member
For one, Preordering and Kickstarting are not the same thing in the slightest, so it's unfair to try and compare the two. For another, this isn't setting precedent or anything for major publishers. You seem to be under the impression that because it was at a Sony conference, that this is going to become standard for Sony games going forward, when that's really far from the truth. Sony may or may not have a part to play in this outside of distribution (TBH I'm still a little unclear).
You're fighting phantoms here. When this actually starts happening, then you can start arguing about how bad it is, because lots of us with be with you. Until then, relax.
Didn't see the video yet (as its listed as private right now 
), but my stance on the topic is this:
-Good: This ensures that long-lost IP get new lime-light through ways that didn't exist years ago. Not only that, but it would continue the story of a game series that had a lot left unanswered and made fans wait years to see continue
-Bad: While recent information confirms that all Sony is doing is pushing advertisement of the Kickstarter alongside assisting with PS4 related development, thats all they are doing. If the game didn't reach its 2 million funding goal, the game simiply wouldn't of been made. So, the mis-information spreading around since the Kickstarter's launch while gave it a huge boon to be fully funded, now people assume "Oh, Sony's funding this now", when that clearly isn't the case. And considering that the game needs 5 million/10 million to be the 'true' Shenmue 3....that is a bit of a problem :l.
-Iffy: What does this mean for other 'lost' IP? Square did do something like this with some older Edios IP's and now are going through a few of the pitches. But Sony was the first to announce a Kickstarter at a E3 conference....that gives a lot of publicity that other Kickstarters wish to get. Could Sony use this to jump-start other 'dream' games people want (Crash Bandicoot? Parapa? Ape Escape? Sython Filter?) or could third parties use this to hold games 'hostage' (I could see Ubi pull this with Beyond Good and Evil 2 :l....)?
There is a lot of un-traveled water to explore here, so while there is some very real negatives, there are a lot of positives as well. So, lets see what happens I guess.
), but my stance on the topic is this:-Good: This ensures that long-lost IP get new lime-light through ways that didn't exist years ago. Not only that, but it would continue the story of a game series that had a lot left unanswered and made fans wait years to see continue
-Bad: While recent information confirms that all Sony is doing is pushing advertisement of the Kickstarter alongside assisting with PS4 related development, thats all they are doing. If the game didn't reach its 2 million funding goal, the game simiply wouldn't of been made. So, the mis-information spreading around since the Kickstarter's launch while gave it a huge boon to be fully funded, now people assume "Oh, Sony's funding this now", when that clearly isn't the case. And considering that the game needs 5 million/10 million to be the 'true' Shenmue 3....that is a bit of a problem :l.
-Iffy: What does this mean for other 'lost' IP? Square did do something like this with some older Edios IP's and now are going through a few of the pitches. But Sony was the first to announce a Kickstarter at a E3 conference....that gives a lot of publicity that other Kickstarters wish to get. Could Sony use this to jump-start other 'dream' games people want (Crash Bandicoot? Parapa? Ape Escape? Sython Filter?) or could third parties use this to hold games 'hostage' (I could see Ubi pull this with Beyond Good and Evil 2 :l....)?
There is a lot of un-traveled water to explore here, so while there is some very real negatives, there are a lot of positives as well. So, lets see what happens I guess
.That's like saying don't go to the dentist until you have tooth pain.
Night Hunter
Banned
I don't disagree, but my guess is that this kind of thinking came from Yu's experiences over the last years. People asking him how the story would continue and so on. I for one would be down for a story experience but I probably wouldn't drop more than 29$ on it. But that's pretty much why I only back KS in the last few days when you get the whole picture.
The problem lies in that this is 3 very passionate things melded into one. Kickstarter, which had had it's share of controversy. Sony, which of all the current platform holders is riding high in the hearts and mind game this gen. And Shenmue III, a game we never thought we would ever see. All mixed all together?
BobTheFork
Member
The kickstarter made it's 'goal' before we knew anything about the scope and funding. When it went live we heard it was just to 'judge interest' with other companies (sony) being the backbone. It broke records and then suddenly the message changes and has to be clarified by Sony and Yu. Then we hear that a record breaking Kickstarter won't be enough to get fans the 'real' Shemue that they want.
Messaging seems to be the primary issue. Which do you see as the better option? Starting a 10m kickstarter or having the game people want to be a stretch goal?
Glitchesarecool
Member
Eh, not quite, there's no precedent for something negative to develop here other than paranoia (whereas there is precedent that getting an annual/biannual visit to the dentist is a good thing). No big group has shown any interest in trying to use Kickstarter to fund a game. However I see where you're coming from.
I don't think people realize how little money there is in KS to major gaming companies.
sechsterangriff
Member
Continuing the story was always the main goal and I think that no fan realistically expects a game in the same scope of the first two with a budget of $2m. Hence the question on the AMA, people really wanted to know how much it would be needed to achieve that. But make no mistake, at least for the fans, there are no expectations not being met. Fears of "Shenmue Lite" as you call it exist only because the fans are afraid all this negative buzz may impact the campaign.
Which is exactly right (annual check-ups are hardly the same thing).
Don't cross the bridge until you come to it.
Yeah, I guess until we start to at least get the idea that this is going to become a larger trend, we might want to avoid paranoia and wait and see. It is a discussion to have, to be sure, but I know that I myself get overly worried too soon over certain things, only to find that nothing was really wrong. It's just those few times when there actually is a fire behind the smoke that stick out more than the times when it was just a cloud.
Side note... as a dental practice manager, it pleases me to no end that you understand the importance of routine dental care. Let's make it more of a biannual thing than an annual one though!
I'm sorry, but this notion is completely ridiculous, and if anything proves how out of hand the paranoia of AAA companies cutting content from their games has gotten. Do you seriously think a game like Call of Duty is going to be put on crowdfunding? Or Mass Effect? Shenmue is a niche title. The way I see it, Sony wasn't sure if the interest for it was even high and decided to see how the kickstarter would do, and now that there is obvious interest, they are now confident to add funding to it.
The kickstarter was under Yu Suzuki's studio Ys Net, not SCEA. Do you think that Activision is going to place Call of Duty under a shell company so it can get funding? Or that they are going to cut development of modes and maps? For fucks sakes, these AAA games keep throwing things in like modes and features. Fucking Assassins Creed keeps throwing on random features into their games each year, and it ruins the game, but they do it because if they don't have "content" it gives the game an inferior look to it compared to other games on the market. Why does every COD since treyarch added Zombies keep having a "co-op" game mode? The budgets for these games are getting bigger and bigger, and they are getting safer in terms of design and features because they already sell well.
AAA games coming into kickstarter is a ridiculous notion, because the benifit to them is minuscule, and the visible content cut as oppossed to a missing character in a fighting game or a couple of missing skins we are seeing with pre order cutlure is overtly obvious.
The only feasible way an AAA company would even turn to kickstarter is for a small or niche game. Hell, the asking price for a copy of shenmue 3 isn't standard MSRP, its 29 bucks on the kickstarter. No way a 60 dollar game would be put on KS. Even then, smaller titles from AAA on KS is unlikely since AAA companies are funding unique smaller titles without resorting to kickstarter, like unraveled from EA, grow home from ubisoft and their myriad of ubiart titles.
There is no way your dystopian gaming future is going to happen.
If this future does come to pass, I will look like the biggest shitlord, or I am a marketing man sent from this dystopian future to the past, to kill any suspicion that this is what the AAA industry is planning.
I thought it was pretty crummy to come out a few days later and say that he actually needs 10 million to make it a legit Shenmue game.
That said, he may have crippled the Kickstarter with that comment anyway. Now there's probably a lot of people that won't see the point in backing the game unless it looks like it is going to hit 10 million.
BobTheFork
Member
Even without any 'negative' buzz, I don't know how realistic it is to get the full amount they want for an open world Shenue.
You are correct the no one really expected Shenmue 3 for 2 million dollars but again it think it's the initial messaging. Thinking that backing a 2m kickstarter would bring outside money to the project. Shenmue is an open world game, so it's not about getting Shenmue lite, it's about people really wanting to get as much for this game as possible after all this time.
The idea that the kickstarter was going to be all the money for the project needed to be out as soon as it was announced.
Looking at KS most-funded list for video games, yeah expectations were out of whack.
It's already in KS Top 5 not even a week in, It can make number one and still not enough for the open-world scope.
Either of the two really. But mostly, the Sony association for additional funding should have been clarified immediately, or just not mentioned at all. We all knew $2m wasn't going to be enough to fund a new Shenmue. However, with only $4m accounted for in stretch goals, the default assumption would be that any amount past that required to realise the game properly was probably coming from outside funding (i.e. Sony). Almost reaching the stretch goal limits before being informed that we may be only a third of the way necessary for a true sequel is a bit messed up imo. Many people are backing this well beyond the price of any other game they've ever purchased, and they should at least know if they may actually be paying $250+ yet receiving a rather compromised game in comparison to the previous titles that the campaign is trading off.
nah, that stuff happens all the time.
"shit, our kickstarter was massively more popular than we'd anticipated - put up some stupid ass stretch goals and vague reasoning to support them to get more money in"
No way they'd have started with a $10m goal, they'd want to start off with something achievable within 30 days and enough to satisfy Sony to also back.
edit: not saying I'm happy with that happening - just that isn't something unique to this KS.
The only confusion I have is the Kickstarter:Sony ratio. ie. if Kickstarter raised the original $2m (which would have been nowhere near enough to fund the game), would Sony have stumped up the rest - up to some generally ballpark amount agreed between both parties as being necessary?
And now it is over that target, and they're throwing in stretch goals with oddly worded phrasing (suggesting that if you don't meet them the game will be nowhere near what you expected), does that increase the overall budget, or simply reduce how much Sony needs to invest (and perhaps linked to that provides Suzuki and Ys a greater share of any upside upon release)?
Lady Siara
Member
Much more accurate video, thanks for taking the time to edit it! However, the lack of Flopsy Flopflop The Floppy Rabbit disappointed me...
Don't be, embrace it.
Jim Sterling
Member
Judging by the panic and the people who think the KS is now "limping" because it's "only" at over three million right now, I'll see you on that wager, and I'll win it.
The edit is on point, my friend.
Cave Johnson
Member
You know this conversation could've been resolved when you consider that fact that even IF SONY provided the majority of the funding and if every sale was bought on PC (theoretically speaking)they would receive NO revenue from this. NONE. Unless I'm mistaken, that SONY does get a cut on PC sales to which that would indicate they are actually publishing the title - which they clearly are not. Why would SONY provide a major backing for a game they can possibly have no return?
Twenty7KVN
Member
But why do that? They could have launched their own crowdfunding page with the goals clearly listed out.
Its going to take what 2 yearsish to get the game out? More than enough time to hit the goal. 3 mill made in less than a week. No, you wont win that wager.
Yea, but even with that knowledge, the $10m ballpark is something that wasn't communicated prior. Everyone knows $2m isn't enough, but nobody knew where the rest was supposed to be coming from. And stretch goals exist for a reason. $10m was not one of those, so if it for example never breaks $5m, then anyone unaware of the AMA actually has no idea how far off Suzuki's actual target we really were. Additional stretch goals being added is great when a project is being massively overfunded and needs a way to justify where the extra cash will be going... but according to Suzuki, Shenmue III isn't being overfunded at all, it's actually the opposite. There's just no way for backers relying on the Kickstarter's information to actually know that as they put their money down.
You don't get two years to hit a kickstarter goal...
Lines have to be drawn on included features at some point, and that'll be long before the game finishes being made.
Glitchesarecool
Member
In a month only die-hard fans will give this game a second thought and maybe donate a little more. Once this leaves KS that's probably the funding it will have.