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[SatelliteOfLove]

I like the point about potential corruption of KS like other venues. I'll keep an eye out about that.

The problem lies in that this is 3 very passionate things melded into one. Kickstarter, which had had it's share of controversy. Sony, which of all the current platform holders is riding high in the hearts and mind game this gen. And Shenmue III, a game we never thought we would ever see. All mixed all together?

Eh-yup. Be careful, Jim

Spoiler

not the least of reasons are that Flopsy Flopflop The Floppy Rabbit has been seen visiting the free clinic. :O

 

[joecanada]

The SC kickstarter ended a while ago, and the last update on that page was in 2013. Not sure what you're trying to get with that point. It was crowdfunded through other means during its development, which might not be the case for Shenmu3. I haven't heard of any other measures for gathering revenue once the kickstarter ends, other than the theorized input from Sony.

It's also a bit of a different situation because the games are completely different.

I'm saying interest in the game doesn't need to die off, they could have different waves of funding followed by different releases of trailers, videos, incentives...

 

[Pinko Marx]

Whats "Garme Journalizm" ?

a misspelling of Game Journalism. Probably as a sort of tongue-in-cheek joke taking a stab at how people see most Gaming Journalism.

 

[chrominance]

That doesn't at all read like "if we don't get to $10m you can kiss your open world Shenmue goodbye". That reads as "what we're getting from Kickstarter is only part of the funds". If Shenmue III requires $10m to be what he wants it to be, then that should be one of the goals, making it clear to those pledging what happens if (when) it fails to reach that amount. The highest stretch tier listed shouldn't be less than half of what is required to make the game you're causing your fanbase to expect.

Except even this point has been unclear. First we had the Kickstarter of $2 million and Sony saying "this is very much not our project but we're excited to announce it on our stage." Then we had the $2 million goal reached and Sony saying "yeah actually we are supporting it, we just wanted to confirm interest based on the Kickstarter response." Fine. Then people interpreted that to mean Sony would provide the lion's share of the funding, because how would you make an open-world game for $2 million. Then Yu Suzuki came forward and said he expected the majority of the funding to come from Kickstarter, not other sources. At some point Sony may have clarified their financial interests here but it's still unclear to me if Sony's putting in money or how much. The Kickstarter already mentions they will not be revealing other details about the funding they're getting from other investors.

In the midst of all this, we have a stated goal of $10 million to make the open-world game we really want, with little idea of how to get there. If we assume Suzuki's prediction is true about backers providing most of the funding, we'd need at least $5,000,001. Let's say we get to that amount exactly. Do we get the open-world Shenmue III Suzuki wants to build or not? We have no idea. Let's say we get to $6 million. How about then? $7 million? What's the magic number that guarantees this (as much as you can guarantee anything on Kickstarter)? Realistically, it's $10 million, because we know almost nothing about the additional support being asked for. So naturally backers and other interested parties will be asking for $10 million in the KS campaign.

I wouldn't be worried about the likes of EA orf Ubisoft somehow poisoning the crowdfunding well as much as I'm worried about the relative lack of transparency even now about what, exactly, we're funding. Because other parties are involved, we may never get the answers to these questions because traditional funding is so opaque in comparison. Meanwhile you get emotional appeals about how this is our "only shot" and our "last chance" at the game we really want. Which is fine, but it's pretty hard to make a rational decision about whether you should throw your money at this or not as a result.

That's one reason why I don't agree with the response of "you can pull your money out at any time." That's indeed a great thing, but 1) you're still basing that decision on a relative lack of information, and 2) if the project doesn't make it, people will say it's your fault. Not you personally (unless you're pledging, like, $20k), but you, the group of people who didn't support the game enough, didn't support the campaign because of your reservations. And maybe you'll even feel that way too despite yourself, because you want the game even though the campaign wasn't clear enough on what you were getting. It feels a little bit like emotional blackmail. That's a new phenomenon.

 

[Sesha]

The problem is that nobody knows what "open world" Shenmue means in this regard. Does it mean similar to the previous two entries? That the FAQ makes it's first question "Can you make an open world game for just $2 million?", makes it sound like that's the case, rather than open world meaning the game suddenly becomes Fallout. If "open world" means like the previous two games... then what does $2m (or even the original highest stretch goal of $4m) get you?

Who knows, but it's a different matter entirely because the Kickstarter asks for 2 million, which means that Suzuki estimates that the story can be completed for that amount. I assume at 2 million it would be more like an adventure game with limited environments and a smaller cast, with the main focus on the story. Either way 2 million constitutes the most basic game they think can make to finish the story. 10 million is the most complete game they think they can make. Whether or not the finished game is a sandbox only really matters at the 10 million level. The story is what matters most.

Should they have been more clear on what their most complete vision for the game would cost? Yes, but that's a different matter because the they are asking for 2 million as a base, and the fans are the only ones pushing for the game to reach 10 million. Suzuki merely disclosed that difference of content between different "tiers" of budget. Which is what I was pointing out to Jim. We don't need more confusion over what was said and who said who.

 

[AAK]

This game is gonna need to like triple the rate of backer fund influx to reach 10 million. "Shenmue-Lite" has he's referring to is what we're gonna have to deal with.

EDIT: But doesn't KS take 10% of the money? If they make 10 million, then KS gets a whole 1 million making the budget more like 9 million. The stretch goal needs to be something like 11,120,000 to get the developers the 10 million budget.

 

[R_thanatos]

The problem is that nobody knows what "open world" Shenmue means in this regard. Does it mean similar to the previous two entries? That the FAQ makes it's first question "Can you make an open world game for just $2 million?", makes it sound like that's the case, rather than open world meaning the game suddenly becomes Fallout. If "open world" means like the previous two games... then what does $2m (or even the original highest stretch goal of $4m) get you?

As backer , there is no doubt in my mind that "open world" mean the same kind of open world that was in the previous shenmue games.
Not the "other kind " of open world that would need much more of a budget to work.

 

[Disgraced]

Great video, Jim!

 

[benzy]

People are upset at having this dropped on them, and you consider an acceptable response to be "well, you didn't ask earlier," followed by a smug grin?

What's upsetting or controversial about the mention of $10m, other than the fact that these people just assume we won't get a "legit" Shenmue game for anything less? We're already getting new gameplay features Suzuki really wants to do with $5 million, plus mini games and quests expansions in addition to the main story quests for one village. We know there are two other villages that need expansion. Still sounds like a Shenmue game to me whether those other villages gets more mini games or not.

... "smug grin"

Not only that, but this is still not information contained anywhere in the Kickstarter itself. If you didn't read the AMA (or somewhere referencing it), then you'd never guess that $10m is any sort of goal for the Kickstarter at all.

That's how all kickstarters work. $10m is a lot to ask for right off the bat, they will be slowly adding in new stretch goals the closer we hit the current final one, it's the same with other kickstarters. If we're currently only projecting the kickstarter to be lucky to even hit a little over $6m in the end, there's no point in even mentioning from the start what could have been at $10m, or $15m, or $20m. More stretch goals get revealed the closer we get to the current target mark. This is just a case of people with false assumptions and what actually happens across all kickstarter projects.

 

[Synth]

..

Exactly. Except that from how he put it, it does sound like $10m is the amount the Kickstarter alone would need to raise. He may have $5m or whatever from other funding, but it requires $15m total.

Who knows, but it's a different matter entirely because the Kickstarter asks for 2 million, which means that Suzuki estimates that the story can be completed for that amount. I assume at 2 million it would be more like an adventure game with limited environments and a smaller cast, with the main focus on the story. Either way 2 million constitutes the most basic game they think can make to finish the story. 10 million is the most complete game they think they can make. Whether or not the finished game is a sandbox only really matters at the 10 million level. The story is what matters most.

Should they have been more clear on what their most complete vision for the game would cost? Yes, but that's a different matter because the they are asking for 2 million as a base, and the fans are the only ones pushing for the game to reach 10 million. Suzuki merely disclosed that difference of content between different "tiers" of budget. Which is what I was pointing out to Jim. We don't need more confusion over what was said and who said who.

Except that doesn't appear to be the case either..

If the fans are not happy with 3 there will not be a 4. So I please hope we can together make this game the best it can be.

So if the game is underfunded, and as a result isn't something the fanbase (and potential new players) are happy with, then we'll probably just suffer a new cliffhanger with no sense of closure. Hell, the amount raised may even determine where (which of the 11 remaining chapters) this cliffhanger is. Once again, the kickstarter campaign currently has no $10m stretch goal. It's not even something that being proposed as something backers can fail to reach.

As backer , there is no doubt in my mind that "open world" mean the same kind of open world that was in the previous shenmue games.
Not the "other kind " of open world that would need much more of a budget to work.

Same. I currently have $260 (£165) pledged for this. My brother has the same, and his friend actually has pledged for the $175 tier purely based on my brother's excitement for it (he's going to be playing through the first two using my Dreamcast meanwhile). It's hardly like I'm not happy that this kickstarter exists... I'm just not fond of the lack of clarity around it. You only get to make Shenmue II once, so if you Sonic 4 it up due to insufficient funding, then that's that. I would just like to have a clearer idea of what I'm plediging towards given the extreme unlikelihood of the $10m goal being reached. As chrominance said, I do have the option to simply lower or retract my pledge, but as someone who's waited 14 years for the possibility of this happening, it doesn't really seem like an actual solution to me. Worse still is that if every fan that has pledged up to now doubled their pledge it would still fall short of this new target. Would I then have spent $500 on a still compromised version of the game?

I've backed other projects (90's Arcade Racer and Might No. 9) and despite some criticisms I could level at both, I never had the feeling with either that the kickstarter campaign being overfunded (as per the goals set out) would still potentially lead to the game released being a shadow of what was originally intended. The only other Kickstarter that I felt somewhat similar about was Formula Fusion. I didn't back that one though, because other than just having a very unclear campaign, it also looked like they had a rather poor understanding of what their audience would be looking for in a WipEout successor.

That's how all kickstarters work. $10m is a lot to ask for right off the bat, they will be slowly adding in new stretch goals the closer we hit the current final one, it's the same with other kickstarters. If we're currently only projecting the kickstarter to be lucky to even hit a little over $6m in the end, there's no point in even mentioning from the start what could have been at $10m, or $15m, or $20m. More stretch goals get revealed the closer we get to the current target mark. This is just a case of people with false assumptions and what actually happens across all kickstarter projects.

I wouldn't say having a hidden future stretch goal that encompasses the core of what people would expect from the campaign is how all Kickstarters work. The stretch goals are usually additional things, that the game would still feel complete without.

 

[Oemenia]

Very good Jimquisition. Jim managed to summarize well the whole situation.

Now it's time for him to be added to that "biased journalists list" that some are already building just because journalists raise questions instead of buying into it and praise the Savior.

He must be an MS shill, clearly.

 

[benzy]

I wouldn't say having a hidden future stretch goal that encompasses the core of what people would expect from the campaign is how all Kickstarters work. The stretch goals are usually additional things, that the game would still feel complete without.

What core things exactly are we expecting from the campaign that won't be included if $10 million is not reached though?

 

[Synth]

What core things exactly are we expecting from the campaign that won't be included if $10 million is not reached though?

We don't know. But apparently "No, we cannot make an open world game for $2 million", and everything up the our current goal doesn't seem to alter that. Maybe with all with all the goals up until $5m hit, Baisha Village resembles a location from the previous games, but then that would still leave the other two in question right?

These aren't goals like "Boss Rush mode", or "local co-op mode" etc that makes up the stretch goals of stuff like Mighty No. 9 and Yooka-Laylee. This stuff appears to be relatively core game content, and that content seems to extend past goals we can even see. Shenmue IS an open-world game. That's core to what it is.

 

[Darksol]

We know that:

1. Yu approached Sony

2. Nobody else offered to help him out apart from Sony

3. People have resoundingly let it be known that they want Shenmue III by voting with their wallets

Shenmue III is coming, and there's nothing the negative nancys can do to take away my happiness. If you have a beef, for whatever reason, feel free not to contribute to the Kickstarter or purchase the game when it is released. I on the other hand, will be playing a game I was 1000% sure was dead forever.

 

[OboroShogun]

One thing to consider when it comes to Kickstarter being exploited is that the average Joe consumer doesn't know what kickstarter is and will likely never use it. Most people who actually follow Kickstarter projects are much more aware of the general state of the industry and shenanigans that go on within it. Even this whole Shenmue (ridiculous) drama is about a very niche game. This is not Call Of Duty or Assassin's Creed of which the typical user is not into gaming beyond just playing them. If they tried to abuse to Kickstarter system for this a more mainstream game, I would be surprised if it didn't ultimately backfire. Besides DLC and pay to win abuse is more likely and profitable for companies like EA and Activision.

 

[joecanada]

We know that:

1. Yu approached Sony

2. Nobody else offered to help him out apart from Sony

3. People have resoundingly let it be known that they want Shenmue III by voting with their wallets

Shenmue III is coming, and there's nothing the negative nancys can do to take away my happiness. If you have a beef, for whatever reason, feel free not to contribute to the Kickstarter or purchase the game when it is released. I on the other hand, will be playing a game I was 1000% sure was dead forever.

but but Sony should have refused to even speak to him and told him to fuck off.......... otherwise it's clear they are shady LOL
Sony is going to have a coke and whores party with all your kickstarter money!!!

 

[benzy]

We don't know. But apparently "No, we cannot make an open world game for $2 million", and everything up the our current goal doesn't seem to alter that. Maybe with all with all the goals up until $5m hit, Baisha Village resembles a location from the previous games, but then that would still leave the other two in question right?

These aren't goals like "Boss Rush mode", or "local co-op mode" etc that makes up the stretch goals of stuff like Mighty No. 9 and Yooka-Laylee. This stuff appears to be relatively core game content, and that content seems to extend past goals we can even see. Shenmue IS an open-world game. That's core to what it is.

"New boss" "new playable character" "new dungeon" from Bloodstained doesn't sound all that different from "more mini-games" "new battle event" from Baisha village expansion to me. The core things in Shenmue III seems to have been revealed, some of them not even needing stretch goals. A new battle system is already being created without needing additional funds; the new skill tree system, character personality system, and being able to play as other characters from their perspective, has been reached or is currently being pursued and revealed in the kickstarter. Those sound way more important than just including more mini-game or random battle encounter in other villages.

 

[Elandyll]

I think he made fair points as far as warning signs go for big corps potentially going into indie funding, with one exception though. I do not recall him specifying that the kickstarter was not Sony's and was indeed meant specifically for Ysnet, whereas later on in the video mentioning that the slippery slope would have EA making Kickstarters for its games (which could imply that Sony was doing it).

IF he did say that and I missed it, my bad.

 

[rpg_fan]

Pretty balanced, but I think Jim might be projecting his desires for Kickstarter a bit. I know getting rid of big pubs is a dream for a lot of people, but KS themselves would likely be quite happy if EA & others used their service. They are a for-profit corporation after all. Big projects equals big profits.

So I definitely understand the slippery slope of KS sliding down into something that you or I wouldn't like, but do the directors of KS feel the same way?

 

[Synth]

"New boss" "new playable character" "new dungeon" from Bloodstained doesn't sound all that different from "more mini-games" "new battle event" from Baisha village expansion to me. The core things in Shenmue III seems to have been revealed, some of them not even needing stretch goals. A new battle system is already being created without needing additional funds; the new skill tree system, character personality system, and being able to play as other characters from their perspective, has been reached or is currently being pursued and revealed in the kickstarter. Those sound way more important than just including more mini-game or random battle encounter in other villages.

The difference is that Suzuki is making it clear that the base goal isn't enough to create the game as envisioned... to the point of not really describing it as "open world" until it reaches a much, much larger goal. New playable character and new boss sound like exactly that... "new". They come across as additive rather than something otherwise missing. Igarashi wouldn't have essentially said "yea you guys need to get this to $5m for it to be a true Castlevania successor". Shenmue's $2m target seems more like Formula Fusions base goal, which is simply what's required for something to exist at all, but not the game in its entirety. If that's not actually the case, then they're doing a horrible job of communicating this.

If Bloodstained stretch goals were Forza Horizon 2's Storm Island, Shenmue's sound more like Arkham City's Catwoman.

 

[RipperGrim]

I legit don't get why "It's a dangerous slope" as people are putting it. What exactly is so terrible about Sony starting more Kickstarters for games they are not sure on or want to help fund? It's all user driven and decided. if it fails it it's literally like any other Kickstarter, why is it all of a sudden dodgy when Sony is backing it up? Kickstarters have been at risk of failing since the very first one

I have made the comparison before but why is this dodgy and on a dangerous precipice but Star Citizen and it's MASSIVE budget not? If anything Sony being involved makes the project far more likely to succeed and come out to everyone as a company like Sony would fear the stigma a failed project would bring to their name, they simply won't run off the money and disappear unlike plenty of other KS projects have done.

 

[benzy]

The difference is that Suzuki is making it clear that the base goal isn't enough to create the game as envisioned... to the point of not really describing it as "open world" until it reaches a much, much larger goal. New playable character and new boss sound like exactly that... "new". They come across as additive rather than something otherwise missing. Igarashi wouldn't have essentially said "yea you guys need to get this to $5m for it to be a true Castlevania successor". Shenmue's $2m target seems more like Formula Fusions base goal, which is simply what's required for something to exist at all, but not the game in its entirety. If that's not actually the case, then they're doing a horrible job of communicating this.

If Bloodstained stretch goals were Forza Horizon 2's Storm Island, Shenmue's sound more like Arkham City's Catwoman.

The Baisha village expansion (new battle event, new mini-games, etc.), and most likely the expansion of other villages, are all exactly that, "new additives." The game already has a job feature and allows you to take part-time jobs for example, Suzuki revealed a new stretch goal will just add more of old favorites. "True features of an open-world" really just sounds like what you're describing here, additives that allow you to do more like mini-games and side quests that's usually associated with the term "open-world."

The most important thing I've taken in regarding the game design and gameplay is that $5m allows Suzuki to include something he really wants to include. He's even mentioned this feature some time in the past before S3 was announced. I don't think anyone was expecting to have a full complete game at $2m kickstarter funds either, and they've even mentioned as much.

The Arkham City's Catwoman comparison just sounds like the current "Character Perspective System" stretch goal in Shenmue III to be honest.

 

[Synth]

The Baisha village expansion (new battle event, new mini-games, etc.), and most likely the expansion of other villages, are all exactly that, "new additives." The game already has a job feature and allows you to take part-time jobs for example, Suzuki revealed a new stretch goal will just add more of old favorites. "True features of an open-world" really just sounds like what you're describing here, additives that allow you to do more like mini-games and side quests that's usually associated with the term "open-world."

The most important thing I've taken in regarding the game design and gameplay is that $5m allows Suzuki to include something he really wants to include. He's even mentioned this feature some time in the past before S3 was announced. I don't think anyone was expecting to have a full complete game at $2m kickstarter funds either, and they've even mentioned as much.

The Arkham City's Catwoman comparison just sounds like the current "Character Perspective System" stretch goal in Shenmue III to be honest.

Well like I said, when the creator is basically telling you that the base goal won't cut it, it's pretty difficult to then claim the other goal points are additive, rather than stuff being subtracted to cut the budget down. Initially this didn't worry me as it appeared that the Kickstarter was only part of the funding. The later talk about expecting the Kickstarter to be the majority of funds changes that quite a bit. So $2m isn't enough, fine. What amount is? The only number we really have to go off here is the later stated $10m. If that number only represents a bunch of optional unnecessary crap, then he really shouldn't have said it like he did.

Side-stuff is actually more important to Shenmue than pretty much any other game in existence. It's what the entire game was pretty much sold on back in the day. The world having depth, and not just existing for the sole purpose of your characters mission. It's one of the reasons why, despite being a very different game overall, Yakuza draws so many comparisons to Shenmue. Without this stuff, the world simply becomes a level. If Bloodstained didn't get its additional characters and boss, you wouldn't expect to contrast it with SoTN and finding it lacking overall, same with Yooka-Laylee and the stretch goals contained there. This does not seem to be the case for Shenmue III, where not hitting the stretch goals makes it sound like you really wouldn't want to do any direct comparisons with previous entries in the series.

Let's look at the issue of clarity from another angle quickly. What is this thing he's always wanted to include in Shenmue, that can only happen at $5m? Is it the Character Perspective System? If not, why not? That's the $5m tier goal. Why doesn't the stretch goals detail this seemingly important milestone? One reason I can think of, is that stated exactly what it is may be a spoiler of sorts, because it may have some story significance... but then, if that were the case... how exactly is that additive, rather than something missing if we don't hit $5m? A single "Catwoman" scenario is a bit crappy, but not a massive deal. However numerous of them means that without them you're playing a shell of the game envisioned.

Don't get me wrong, this campaign has my money. At this point I'd settle for a Shenmue comic. However a kickstarter for a Shenmue comic would immediately have more clarity in what I can expect to be delivered when it reaches its goal... so I'd probably have less to gripe about ironically.

 

[Disgraced]

I legit don't get why "It's a dangerous slope" as people are putting it. What exactly is so terrible about Sony starting more Kickstarters for games they are not sure on or want to help fund? It's all user driven and decided. if it fails it it's literally like any other Kickstarter, why is it all of a sudden dodgy when Sony is backing it up? Kickstarters have been at risk of failing since the very first one

I have made the comparison before but why is this dodgy and on a dangerous precipice but Star Citizen and it's MASSIVE budget not? If anything Sony being involved makes the project far more likely to succeed and come out to everyone as a company like Sony would fear the stigma a failed project would bring to their name, they simply won't run off the money and disappear unlike plenty of other KS projects have done.

I think you may have said it yourself. With a corporation like Sony backing a KS from the start it's probably more likely to succeed than a regular KS. It is user driven, but a project with a corporation's marketing is absolutely going to influence people more than a project that doesn't. Is that unfair? I'm not sure.

 

[OnADock]

I legit don't get why "It's a dangerous slope" as people are putting it. What exactly is so terrible about Sony starting more Kickstarters for games they are not sure on or want to help fund?

Should we really let international corporations fund their investments with donated money? This is essentially the same as buying Sony stock, but instead of shares in the company you get nothing.

 

[otakukidd]

Should we really let international corporations fund their investments with donated money? This is essentially the same as buying Sony stock, but instead of shares in the company you get nothing.

You get a game at a cheaper value and maybe collector stuff if you paid more.

 

[Littlefang]

You get a game at a cheaper value and maybe collector stuff if you paid more.

Only if everything goes according to plan.

 

[otakukidd]

Only if everything goes according to plan.

If a multi million dollar company doesn't release the game, the feds would go after them for fraud.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/

They would be scrutinized more than a small company would be an be and would loose all consumer trust.

 

[Disgraced]

If a multi million dollar company doesn't release the game, the feds would go after them for fraud.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/

They would be scrutinized more than a small company would be an be and would loose all consumer trust.

A KS is a KS. As it is, a funded KS can fail to deliver and walk as long as they never actually committed fraud. I don't think we've ever seen a KS backed by a large corporation in the fashion of Shenmue 3 fail to deliver anything or everything, so we can't know what would or could happen.

 

[Glitchesarecool]

A KS is a KS. As it is, a funded KS can fail to deliver and walk as long as they never actually committed fraud. I don't think we've ever seen a KS backed by a large corporation in the fashion of Shenmue 3 fail to deliver anything or everything, so we can't know what would or could happen.

We have, however, seen it happen on other projects, and the best KS can do is offer apologies and point to their TOS.

Also the basis for the fed's charges in that board game policy is that the creator never actually tried to fulfill the promises of his KS despite his claims, spending the money on things other than what contributed to the game. I think a large company could point to whatever they end up producing and call it product fulfilled.

 

[Disgraced]

We have, however, seen it happen on other projects, and the best KS can do is offer apologies and point to their TOS.

Also the basis for the fed's charges in that board game policy is that the creator never actually tried to fulfill the promises of his KS despite his claims, spending the money on things other than what contributed to the game. I think a large company could point to whatever they end up producing and call it product fulfilled.

It's almost like you're saying it might be easier for a corporation to get away with it. That's a scary thought.

 

[border]

I legit don't get why "It's a dangerous slope" as people are putting it. What exactly is so terrible about Sony starting more Kickstarters for games they are not sure on or want to help fund? It's all user driven and decided. if it fails it it's literally like any other Kickstarter, why is it all of a sudden dodgy when Sony is backing it up? Kickstarters have been at risk of failing since the very first one

Watch Sterling's video, he makes a pretty good case.

Pre-orders used to be an inherently good thing -- put $5 down, get the game you want on the day it comes out. Big publishers took that inherently good thing and ruined it to the point where now you can't even feel like you're getting the complete game unless you pre-order.

So what happens when big publishers grab hold of Kickstarter? Imagine that every Shenmue backer gets an exclusive 4th village to go to in Shenmue, but only the backers. At least with pre-orders you can always get a refund, but KS donations are completely non-refundable. I don't think it's hard to see how the system could be abused.

 

[benzy]

Well like I said, when the creator is basically telling you that the base goal won't cut it, it's pretty difficult to then claim the other goal points are additive, rather than stuff being subtracted to cut the budget down. Initially this didn't worry me as it appeared that the Kickstarter was only part of the funding. The later talk about expecting the Kickstarter to be the majority of funds changes that quite a bit. So $2m isn't enough, fine. What amount is? The only number we really have to go off here is the later stated $10m. If that number only represents a bunch of optional unnecessary crap, then he really shouldn't have said it like he did.

Side-stuff is actually more important to Shenmue than pretty much any other game in existence. It's what the entire game was pretty much sold on back in the day. The world having depth, and not just existing for the sole purpose of your characters mission. It's one of the reasons why, despite being a very different game overall, Yakuza draws so many comparisons to Shenmue. Without this stuff, the world simply becomes a level. If Bloodstained didn't get its additional characters and boss, you wouldn't expect to contrast it with SoTN and finding it lacking overall, same with Yooka-Laylee and the stretch goals contained there. This does not seem to be the case for Shenmue III, where not hitting the stretch goals makes it sound like you really wouldn't want to do any direct comparisons with previous entries in the series.

Let's look at the issue of clarity from another angle quickly. What is this thing he's always wanted to include in Shenmue, that can only happen at $5m? Is it the Character Perspective System? If not, why not? That's the $5m tier goal. Why doesn't the stretch goals detail this seemingly important milestone? One reason I can think of, is that stated exactly what it is may be a spoiler of sorts, because it may have some story significance... but then, if that were the case... how exactly is that additive, rather than something missing if we don't hit $5m? A single "Catwoman" scenario is a bit crappy, but not a massive deal. However numerous of them means that without them you're playing a shell of the game envisioned.

Don't get me wrong, this campaign has my money. At this point I'd settle for a Shenmue comic. However a kickstarter for a Shenmue comic would immediately have more clarity in what I can expect to be delivered when it reaches its goal... so I'd probably have less to gripe about ironically.

Well... I'm just gonna agree to disagree here. I don't find the mentioning of $10m in reddit and not mentioning it elsewhere at the moment to be that big of a problem. Seems like anyone who's been a diehard Shenmue fan has pledged the most they can for the time being, and the pledge amounts have slowed down a bit recently, meaning even with the current stretch goals people who aren't huge fans of Shenmue aren't exactly jumping out of their seat to hit the next milestone goal, and adding in a $10m goal will just make it look like a much more daunting task.

Suzuki seemingly content with not making a big fuss about a $10 million goal makes me think he believes he'll still be able to deliver a great game with new features with the current pledge goal. And we still have the possibility of having more funds flow in with paypal after kickstarter ends. I do hope we hit $10m, but with the current info out I'm not under the assumption we'll lose a "true shenmue experience" if we don't hit it.

 

[MajinSweet4]

Watch Sterling's video, he makes a pretty good case.

Pre-orders used to be an inherently good thing -- put $5 down, get the game you want on the day it comes out. Big publishers took that inherently good thing and ruined it to the point where now you can't even feel like you're getting the complete game unless you pre-order.

So what happens when big publishers grab hold of Kickstarter? Imagine that every Shenmue backer gets an exclusive 4th village to go to in Shenmue, but only the backers. At least with pre-orders you can always get a refund, but KS donations are completely non-refundable. I don't think it's hard to see how the system could be abused.

It seems extremely premature to already be imagining all the terrible ways this could be abused. Especially when right now we have games that likely wouldn't exist otherwise. BloodStained and Shenmue 3 are mostly projects of passion. They are being made because the people making them REALLY want to make them. If we start seeing games that would have gotten released anyway show up on kickstarter, then I'd say you have a point.

 

[Littlefang]

It seems extremely premature to already be imagining all the terrible ways this could be abused. Especially when right now we have games that likely wouldn't exist otherwise. BloodStained and Shenmue 3 are mostly projects of passion. They are being made because the people making them REALLY want to make them. If we start seeing games that would have gotten released anyway show up on kickstarter, then I'd say you have a point.

I think it's better to open a dialogue about hypothetical situations before they actually occur in order to show developers/people how something may be abused in order for more people to avoid doing such a thing. I mean it's better to raise concerns about these things now before they've become a trend. If people weren't to voice the qualms with something prior to it being implemented, it raises the potential to be criticized as "Why didn't you raise these issues before? Why are you only now having a problem with this?"

 

[Tumeke NZ]

I think its great for all the Shenmue fans that this is being made but the messaging has been pretty unclear from the start. Sony made the effort to announce it on their E3 stage and should of really made it clear then that if it got enough support via the Kickstarter then they'd be putting some backing behind it too. We still don't really know what their backing consists of.
I think my biggest issue with all this though is Sony can get all the glory and lock down exclusivity if the KS is successful or just walk away if it isn't without any risk/loss to them. Regardless they are seen as the good guys for at least trying.
It is really pretty genius when you think about it but also a bit shady if you ask me. I mean you'd think these highly requested sequels like S3 would be a no brainer and Sony would have the faith to just back it from the start.
I mean imagine if you were a Xbox gamer and from the announcement of the KS assumed that it would be coming to all platforms so donated, only to find out later that its a Sony exclusive. No refunds...

 

[Mononoke]

I think it's better to open a dialogue about hypothetical situations before they actually occur in order to show developers/people how something may be abused in order for more people to avoid doing such a thing. I mean it's better to raise concerns about these things now before they've become a trend. If people weren't to voice the qualms with something prior to it being implemented, it raises the potential to be criticized as "Why didn't you raise these issues before? Why are you only now having a problem with this?"

I'm fine with that, as long as people arent acting without information and claiming companies are making supposed abuses when they don't know if they actually are. We should be cautious and worry about abuses. But we also shouldn't be jumping at KS and claiming abuse if we don't actually know.

At this point, I think Boyes made it clear this was Yu Suzukis project and NOT their project. At the conference he said as such. People had a right to question what Sony was actually doing and what funding was needed. At this point I think Yu Suzukis team has done an abysmal job running this and being upfront with information. And so I think criticims and questions should be voiced at his team and how they are doing this.

Sadly, I think people speculating on possible future abuses are getting hung up on that, and focusing on Sony and it's distracting from the campaign and how their team is running it.

 

[Tumeke NZ]

I'm fine with that, as long as people arent acting without information and claiming companies are making supposed abuses when they don't know if they actually are. We should be cautious and worry about abuses. But we also shouldn't be jumping at KS and claiming abuse if we don't actually know.

At this point, I think Boyes made it clear this was Yu Suzukis project and their project. At the conference he said as such. People had a right to question what Sony was actually doing and what funding was needed. At this point I think Yu Suzukis team has done an abysmal job running this and being upfront with information. And so I think criticims and questions should be voiced at his team and how they are doing this.

Sadly, I think people speculating on possible future abuses are getting hung up on that, and focusing on Sony and it's distracting from the campaign and how their team is running it.

Well to be fair Yu Suzuki didn't just turn up at Sony's conference and jump on stage, they were invited so of course the focus is going to land on Sony and how they are involved. Regardless of who is running it, it was their show and they should have made it clear what role they were playing.

 

[Mononoke]

Well to be fair Yu Suzuki didn't just turn up at Sony's conference and jump on stage, they were invited so of course the focus is going to land on Sony and how they are involved. Regardless of who is running it, it was their show and they should have made it clear what role they were playing.

Sure, so ask questions. Don't make assumptions and say Sony are being unethical, when you don't even know. We had a thread where someone actually claimed Sony was holding the damn game and their fans hostage. I mean the uproar over Sony's involvement was not rational.

I agree that Sony should have been more up front with Press/PR after the event. Don't agree they needed to say anymore on stage at E3. Boyes made it clear as day, it was their project. Not Sony's. Meaning, it was not a Sony run KS. It was not a game being 100% funded by Sony. Those were facts that were evident.

What wasn't clear 100%, is what exact support was Sony giving. And I think it was fine asking those questions. But it blew up and become this huge thing where people were speculating supposed abuses, and it became this whole mess. Eventually things got cleared up once Sony started talking, and once Yu Suzuki started talking. My issue again was not questions being asked, it was the the assertions and assumptions being made. And how it became this big distraction (which I agree, is in part, Suzuki's team's fault for not being more clear. But I don't think that excuses how some people were acting without information).

Now we should be able to move forward now, and focus on what the project actually is. And yet we are STILL having people focus on Sony and making it a big deal. When in reality, Yu Suzuki and his team are doing some pretty shitty things with regards to this KS, and that should be the focus of criticism and questions. Now, if people want to speculate about future abuses down the line, fine. But I really think it's become a distraction. Unless more comes out and we find out later on Sony is going to foot more of the bill, or something changes with their involvement. But as it currently stands, we know what it is.

So I hope the focus stays on the KS (as someone that has pledged to it), and we start asking questions of Suzukis team, and what exactly they are doing. I agree with Sterling, wasn't a fan of how he dropped the $10 million budget thing through a Reddit AMA. I'm honestly close to just pulling my pledge, as I'm not 100% on everything, and I don't feel comfortable with it. So I'm hoping more gets cleared up.

That said, I think there is always going to be people that don't like Sony's involvement, even if Sony just sticks 100% to Marketing, and producing the PS4 versions physical release and helping with the port. That is just something some won't ever be able to agree on. I have zero issue with a major company helping in this outside capacity, as long as the major corporation (this time it's Sony) isn't taking OUR money and pocketing it. If they act as an outside party the same way we pledge to the project, I am fine with it. I have no issue with people having this opinion. I don't agree with it, but it's fine. It's worth discussing and debating.

 

[sjay1994]

That 10 million mark, is what worries me.

I don't think the game is going to reach that, especially now with the controversy surrounding the kickstarter.

 

[Tumeke NZ]

Sure, so ask questions. Don't make assumptions and say Sony are being unethical, when you don't even know. We had a thread where someone actually claimed Sony was holding the damn game and their fans hostage. I mean the uproar over Sony's involvement was not rational.

I agree that Sony should have been more up front with Press/PR after the event. Don't agree they needed to say anymore on stage at E3. Boyes made it clear as day, it was their project. Not Sony's. Meaning, it was not a Sony run KS. It was not a game being 100% funded by Sony. Those were facts that were evident.

What wasn't clear 100%, is what exact support was Sony giving. And I think it was fine asking those questions. But it blew up and become this huge thing where people were speculating supposed abuses, and it became this whole mess. Eventually things got cleared up once Sony started talking, and once Yu Suzuki started talking. My issue again was not questions being asked, it was the the assertions and assumptions being made. And how it became this big distraction (which I agree, is in part, Suzuki's team's fault for not being more clear. But I don't think that excuses how some people were acting without information).

Now we should be able to move forward now, and focus on what the project actually is. And yet we are STILL having people focus on Sony and making it a big deal. When in reality, Yu Suzuki and his team are doing some pretty shitty things with regards to this KS, and that should be the focus of criticism and questions. Now, if people want to speculate about future abuses down the line, fine. But I really think it's become a distraction. Unless more comes out and we find out later on Sony is going to foot more of the bill, or something changes with their involvement. But as it currently stands, we know what it is.

So I hope the focus stays on the KS (as someone that has pledged to it), and we start asking questions of Suzukis team, and what exactly they are doing. I agree with Sterling, wasn't a fan of how he dropped the $10 million budget thing through a Reddit AMA. I'm honestly close to just pulling my pledge, as I'm not 100% on everything, and I don't feel comfortable with it. So I'm hoping more gets cleared up.

That said, I think there is always going to be people that don't like Sony's involvement, even if Sony just sticks 100% to Marketing, and producing the PS4 versions physical release and helping with the port. That is just something some won't ever be able to agree on. I have zero issue with a major company helping in this outside capacity, as long as the major corporation (this time it's Sony) isn't taking OUR money and pocketing it. If they act as an outside party the same way we pledge to the project, I am fine with it. I have no issue with people having this opinion. I don't agree with it, but it's fine. It's worth discussing and debating.

I'd have the same issue if MS pulled this so its not just a bash on Sony. What I'm getting at and said in a previous post, what if I was a huge fan but a Xbox gamer (relevant since S2 was on OG Xbox) and got caught up in the KS hype and donated then and there like many other did, only to find that it is actually backed by Sony and no I won't be getting it on my preferred platform. That is why I'm saying they should have said it on stage. We wouldn't be having this conversation if they did.
I haven't said anywhere that I was worried about Sony pocketing any money?

 

[MajinSweet4]

I think it's better to open a dialogue about hypothetical situations before they actually occur in order to show developers/people how something may be abused in order for more people to avoid doing such a thing. I mean it's better to raise concerns about these things now before they've become a trend. If people weren't to voice the qualms with something prior to it being implemented, it raises the potential to be criticized as "Why didn't you raise these issues before? Why are you only now having a problem with this?"

Except most of these hypothetical examples are things that could be done (and many probably have been) since KickStarter became a thing. I feel it's more of a situation where Shenmue 3 is a big story so people want to make content about it. Which is ultimately a perfectly fine thing to do, but I'd say it's a little more than a bit disingenuous to act like we are protecting people from the evil publishers here.

 

[The Technomancer]

Except most of these hypothetical examples are things that could be done (and many probably have been) since KickStarter became a thing. I feel it's more of a situation where Shenmue 3 is a big story so people want to make content about it. Which is ultimately a perfectly fine thing to do, but I'd say it's a little more than a bit disingenuous to act like we are protecting people from the evil publishers here.

And some people see this as the first major example of a major publisher using Kickstarter in a less then savory way, and are calling that out now? Like, trends can begin. Just because something hasn't been happening on Kickstarter so far doesn't mean that it might not be about to begin

 

[Mononoke]

I'd have the same issue if MS pulled this so its not just a bash on Sony. What I'm getting at and said in a previous post, what if I was a huge fan but a Xbox gamer (relevant since S2 was on OG Xbox) and got caught up in the KS hype and donated then and there like many other did, only to find that it is actually backed by Sony and no I won't be getting it on my preferred platform. That is why I'm saying they should have said it on stage. We wouldn't be having this conversation if they did.
I haven't said anywhere that I was worried about Sony pocketing any money?

I was kind of speaking in general, and not addressing anything you said specifically, save for the part about you saying they should have this on stage. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

I own all systems, so I don't care about which company it is either. I wasn't saying that the only people asking questions, were anti-Sony folks. Although I do think some people were going the anti-corporation route, and making a lot of noise (that IMO was not supported by facts). THAT is what I think became distracting.

I think we can at least agree that if they had been more up front, there wouldn't be these questions (even if we don't agree when they should have said it). I don't agree that them not being up front = people being allowed to make accusations without info though.

And some people see this as the first major example of a major publisher using Kickstarter in a less then savory way, and are calling that out now? Like, trends can begin. Just because something hasn't been happening on Kickstarter so far doesn't mean that it might not be about to begin

What way has it been unsavory? I'm curious what Sony has actually done, that has been unsavory in this? I'm not asking to challenge, just curious what exactly people have against it?

What I've seen argued the most, is that Sony having ANY involvement in a KS run project is a problem. Even if it's not a KS being run by Sony. Them having any kind of support for a KS project is bad. That seems like a pretty broad stroke to paint supposed first time abuses by a company and KS that will lead to a slippery slope of abuses.

 

[MajinSweet4]

And some people see this as the first major example of a major publisher using Kickstarter in a less then savory way, and are calling that out now? Like, trends can begin. Just because something hasn't been happening on Kickstarter so far doesn't mean that it might not be about to begin

What exactly is Sony doing that is "less then savory"? If the team behind Shenmue 3 didn't feel confident enough to go through with the KickStarter without Sonys support, would it be better that the game just never got made at all?

 

[The Technomancer]

What exactly is Sony doing that is "less then savory"? If the team behind Shenmue 3 didn't feel confident enough to go through with the KickStarter without Sonys support, would it be better that the game just never got made at all?

A multibillion dollar company coming on stage and telling us we can revive a beloved franchise if we the consumer kick in enough cash before anything has even been produced leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Jim nailed it there, as far as I'm concerned, and you're nuts if you don't think EA and Ubisoft and all the rest aren't planning out Kickstarter revivals of nostalgia properties right now that "we can make happen!!". In fact, the Beyond Good and Evil 2 example is a perfect choice. I would not be surprised to see that happen in the next year and a half.

Shenmue might not actually be funded significantly by Sony in the same way, but the lack of transparency around that at the beginning and the unclear nature of Sony's involvement even now doesn't thrill me. Its just yet another way for these companies to hedge their bets by getting people to part with their money earlier and earlier before anything is delivered. And its not the same as some small indie dev who actually needs to use Kickstarter as a platform to pursue the funding they require

 

[Mononoke]

A multibillion dollar company coming on stage and telling us we can revive a beloved franchise if we the consumer kick in enough cash before anything has even been produced leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Jim nailed it there, as far as I'm concerned, and you're nuts if you don't think EA and Ubisoft and all the rest aren't planning out Kickstarter revivals of nostalgia properties right now that "we can make happen!!". In fact, the Beyond Good and Evil 2 example is a perfect choice. I would not be surprised to see that happen in the next year and a half.

That really doesn't explain what is exactly unsavory or unethical about it. It's just a broad stroke argument that a company with a lot of money, should not have any involvement in someones KS project. Okay. So then what is actually unsavory about what they are doing?

This is a project no company will back, because the risk is too high, and the consumer base is too little for it. Creator takes the project to this small userbase to get it funded. Sony as an outside source, says they will help with marketing and the port to the PS4. I'm not seeing what is unsavory about those actions.

Little Fang made an argument about a corporation shouldn't have any involvement in it, because essentially consumers are taking the risk on something they could later make profit on. That Sony should take the risk. But I don't believe companies should take a risk, if it doesn't make sense. So this is a deal where the creator can try to make the project happen with his fans, Sony can provide some help. If Sony had not provided any help on marketing or the PS4 port, and the project was 100% the same, and the same KS, I'm not sure why it would suddenly be better and less unethical.

 

[Tumeke NZ]

I think we can at least agree that if they had been more up front, there wouldn't be these questions (even if we don't agree when they should have said it). I don't agree that them not being up front = people being allowed to make accusations without info though.

All good. I think we've both made our points so can move on
End of the day the fans of the series are going to finally see its conclusion which can only be a good thing.

 

[Littlefang]

“We said ‘the only way this is gonna happen is if the fans speak up,’” said Corsi. “We thought Kickstarter was the perfect place to do this. We set a goal of two million dollars, and if the fans come in and back it, then absolutely we’re going to make it this a reality.”

Source

I don't really know why Corsi said this if this isn't the case? I don't know that Sony is necessarily unsavory with their use of kickstarter, but in my opinion it certainly isn't a completely honest use of the platform.

 

[lupinko]

Don't know why everybody keeps reiterating it was Sony's idea.

It's strictly Yu Suzuki's and Sega's idea for the kickstarter in the first place.

If you guys wanted Sony or any other big company to bankroll this disobedient whale from the start, it would take lots of time for corporate to make a decision plus they would probably restrict Yu Suzuki's vision due to checks and balances.