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[Mononoke]

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I don't really know why Corsi said this if this isn't the case? I don't know that Sony is necessarily unsavory with their use of kickstarter, but in my opinion it certainly isn't a completely honest use of the platform.

I actually liked your argument about Sony making a profit if it gets released on PS4, and that's why they should have zero involvement, since consumers are taking the risk. I actually can't disagree with you on your dislike of Sony doing this (or rather, thinking it's a bad move on Sony's part to do that).

I guess I just have a hard time getting all up in arms with it, because Sony isn't running the KS, Sony isn't pocketing our money. This project would be 100% the same if Sony was out of the picture, the project would just not get marketing from Sony, or get a port on PS4. Okay.

So I'm having a hard time being sold 100% on how Sony's involvement (in the capacity they are)...is bad. Or a bad thing for KS in general. I dunno. But I at least see your argument, and where you are coming from with it. I would take more issue if Sony actually was pocketing our money in the KS, and they didn't have to finish the project. If they were taking our money, making us take all the risk (and not having to deliver the final product), then I would say that is a pretty shitty thing for a company to do.

 

[MajinSweet4]

A multibillion dollar company coming on stage and telling us we can revive a beloved franchise if we the consumer kick in enough cash before anything has even been produced leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Jim nailed it there, as far as I'm concerned, and you're nuts if you don't think EA and Ubisoft and all the rest aren't planning out Kickstarter revivals of nostalgia properties right now that "we can make happen!!". In fact, the Beyond Good and Evil 2 example is a perfect choice. I would not be surprised to see that happen in the next year and a half.

Shenmue might not actually be funded significantly by Sony in the same way, but the lack of transparency around that at the beginning and the unclear nature of Sony's involvement even now doesn't thrill me. Its just yet another way for these companies to hedge their bets by getting people to part with their money earlier and earlier before anything is delivered. And its not the same as some small indie dev who actually needs to use Kickstarter as a platform to pursue the funding they require

To be blunt, I actually don't think the likes of Activision, EA or Ubisoft will go to great lengths to do that. Why? Because they can make more money, with less effort with what they have been doing. The likes of Shenmue 3 and a hypothetical Beyond Good and Evil 2 are not big money makers. Your cynicism may be clouding your judgment here. Hell, the big reason Sony decided to go through with this deal was probably for good will. Not big profits. I'll stand by what I've said before. Once we see games on Kickstarter that would have definitely been made anyway, then I'll cry foul.

 

[border]

It seems extremely premature to already be imagining all the terrible ways this could be abused. Especially when right now we have games that likely wouldn't exist otherwise. BloodStained and Shenmue 3 are mostly projects of passion. They are being made because the people making them REALLY want to make them. If we start seeing games that would have gotten released anyway show up on kickstarter, then I'd say you have a point.

I tend to feel like the situation with pre-order DLC and post-release DLC has gotten way worse than anyone could have imagined back when Bethesda first introduced their Horse Armor DLC for Oblivion. So I really don't have much of a problem with people hypothetically discussing a "worst case scenario" for Kickstarters, because the worst case scenario is probably going to be worse than anything I can imagine.

A lot of these Kickstarters tend to revolve around milking nostalgic diehard fans for way more money than they would normally pay for a Collector's Edition. In the Shenmue threads alone I read about people committing to pledges of $150 or $300. I suspect that things will continue in this direction, since all the big publishers are looking for whales.

 

[Littlefang]

That really doesn't explain what is exactly unsavory or unethical about it. It's just a broad stroke argument that a company with a lot of money, should not have any involvement in someones KS project. Okay. So then what is actually unsavory about what they are doing?

This is a project no company will back, because the risk is too high, and the consumer base is too little for it. Creator takes the project to this small userbase to get it funded. Sony as an outside source, says they will help with marketing and the port to the PS4. I'm not seeing what is unsavory about those actions.

Little Fang made an argument about a corporation shouldn't have any involvement in it, because essentially consumers are taking the risk on something they could later make profit on. That Sony should take the risk. But I don't believe companies should take a risk, if it doesn't make sense. So this is a deal where the creator can try to make the project happen with his fans, Sony can provide some help. If Sony had not provided any help on marketing or the PS4 port, and the project was 100% the same, and the same KS, I'm not sure why it would suddenly be better and less unethical.

See and I would be entirely supportive of Sony relying on crowdfunding, but on a platform like Kickstarter where they aren't guaranteeing the consumer a final product, I have qualms with a large company using it to fund something they stand to make a profit off of. I mean I do have issues with kickstarters already having exclusivity deals tied down onto them, but I know that isn't specific to Shenmue.

I actually liked your argument about Sony making a profit if it gets released on PS4, and that's why they should have zero involvement, since consumers are taking the risk. I actually can't disagree with you on your dislike of Sony doing this (or rather, thinking it's a bad move on Sony's part to do that).

I guess I just have a hard time getting all up in arms with it, because Sony isn't running the KS, Sony isn't pocketing our money. This project would be 100% the same if Sony was out of the picture, the project would just not get marketing from Sony, or get a port on PS4. Okay.

So I'm having a hard time being sold 100% on how Sony's involvement (in the capacity they are)...is bad. Or a bad thing for KS in general. I dunno. But I at least see your argument, and where you are coming from with it. I would take more issue if Sony actually was pocketing our money in the KS, and they didn't have to finish the project. If they were taking our money, making us take all the risk (and not having to deliver the final product), then I would say that is a pretty shitty thing for a company to do.

I will agree that I myself was premature in getting upset with Sony for something that they haven't actually done. I mean I certainly have qualms with the little extra "edge" they are providing this kickstarter over others, but again that is neither exclusive to Sony or Shenmue.

 

[Moon_frogger]

Passive aggressive behavior... why not just say what you really mean.

I think the message was pretty crystal clear myself.

 

[Mononoke]

See and I would be entirely supportive of Sony relying on crowdfunding, but on a platform like Kickstarter where they aren't guaranteeing the consumer a final product, I have qualms with a large company using it to fund something they stand to make a profit off of. I mean I do have issues with kickstarters already having exclusivity deals tied down onto them, but I know that isn't specific to Shenmue.



I will agree that I myself was premature in getting upset with Sony for something that they haven't actually done. I mean I certainly have qualms with the little extra "edge" they are providing this kickstarter over others, but again that is neither exclusive to Sony or Shenmue.

But I mean, Sony isn't the one that is running this project, or the KS. So basically, you have the creator that is taking this to his fans for funding, and Sony is saying they will give him outside help. I don't really know if I see it your way that this is Sony using crowdfunding.

*shrugs*

I guess since Sony had it on their stage, that has given everyone the assumption this is their project, and they are running the entire show. Sony never should have had this as their stage. Seriously. I think it was apart of them helping Suzuki with getting it a spotlight, as well as giving them brownie points for OMG SONY IS REVIVING SHENMUE (even though they weren't).

Btw I made another post, actually putting one of your arguments into a positive light (even though we don't agree entirely on it).

EDIT: Saw you edit lol. Don't worry, I got carried away too. The whole thing was just frustrating. Was an entire much of noise. I'm glad people like Sterling are trying to discuss this rationally.

 

[Game Guru]

I think the biggest problem in regards to a company like EA or Ubisoft using Kickstarter to fund a game is that, paradoxically, said company would have to actually please the niche fans rather than the mainstream fans. Kickstarting Battlefield or Assassin's Creed won't work any better than the pre-order methods which already exists for AAA games. Something like Ultima X or Beyond Good & Evil 2 could work, but it would have to be an Ultima X or Beyond Good & Evil 2 that the fans of Ultima or Beyond Good & Evil would want to exist. I mean just using EA and Ubisoft as examples, would the niche gamers like us be willing to fund a Kickstarter for Ultima X or Beyond Good & Evil 2 but ultimately be given an Origin Key for Ultima X or a UPlay Key for Beyond Good & Evil 2 rather than a Steam Key for either version? Would these niche gamers be willing to fund a Kickstarter for Ultima X or Beyond Good & Evil 2 if they required an online connection or had DLC and microtransactions? These are the sorts of questions I have in regards to large publishers using Kickstarter, especially when niche gamers have called out Mighty No. 9, Bloodstained, and now Shenmue III for potentially scummy things.

 

[border]

I think the biggest problem in regards to a company like EA or Ubisoft using Kickstarter to fund a game is that, paradoxically, said company would have to actually please the niche fans rather than the mainstream fans. Kickstarting Battlefield or Assassin's Creed won't work any better than the pre-order methods which already exists for AAA games.

I think what will happen is that it ends up being used to finance ridiculously expensive Collector's Editions of popular franchises. "Hey guys, we wanted to include this special statue with Assassin's Creed 17, but retailers told us they wouldn't stock it! Show those jerks by pledging your support now! And hey, if you just wanna pledge $60 to get a normal boxed edition that's cool too."

 

[a secret-boss]

really good points
I dread the day Big Pubs uses KS as "pre-order"

 

[The Spoony Hou]

really good points
I dread the day Big Pubs uses KS as "pre-order"

That's exactly why I don't like Sony's involvement in this. Either they fund it or don't. Taking the fans money when they have plenty just seems dirty.

 

[linkent]

That's exactly why I don't like Sony's involvement in this. Either they fund it or don't. Taking the fans money when they have plenty just seems dirty.

The thing is Sony doesnt take any money. Instead they give money for this to be on their platform first. Yup totally wrong move Sony.

 

[The Spoony Hou]

The thing is Sony doesnt take any money. Instead they give money for this to be on their platform first. Yup totally wrong move Sony.

Sorry, I did make a mistake when phrasing that. You're right (supposedly), Sony doesn't get the money. But they also don't get the risk, since they have little investment there, and that's what's fishy. They are riding the hype, making the fans pay for it, and receiving credit and goodwill, for nothing.

 

[V_Arnold]

Sorry, I did make a mistake when phrasing that. You're right (supposedly), Sony doesn't get the money. But they also don't get the risk, since they have little investment there, and that's what's fishy. They are riding the hype, making the fans pay for it, and receiving credit and goodwill, for nothing.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT is happening now.

a. They helped Suzuki announce the Kickstarter in the most glorious way
b. They are also helping funding (mostly in order for it to show up on PS4, and on consoles, PS4 only)

What risk should they get? If they get no sales for Shenmue III, their money is lost. What more risk you want?

This is a "no good way to do this" situation, if no one funds Shenmue, fuck them, if Sony helps out, fuck them, if they disclose the info, it is moneyhatting, if they do not, then it is shady.

I mean, WHAT. The main part of the development will be made from contributor's money. Sony does not rake the profits, they are helping out with an unknown amount of money in order for the game to turn up on PS4, and that is it.

 

[The Spoony Hou]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT is happening now.

a. They helped Suzuki announce the Kickstarter in the most glorious way
b. They are also helping funding (mostly in order for it to show up on PS4, and on consoles, PS4 only)

What risk should they get? If they get no sales for Shenmue III, their money is lost. What more risk you want?

This is a "no good way to do this" situation, if no one funds Shenmue, fuck them, if Sony helps out, fuck them, if they disclose the info, it is moneyhatting, if they do not, then it is shady.

I mean, WHAT. The main part of the development will be made from contributor's money. Sony does not rake the profits, they are helping out with an unknown amount of money in order for the game to turn up on PS4, and that is it.

Sigh... Yes, they have SOME investment. But, OBVIOUSLY, they aren't funding the whole thing. I said it before, either fund it or don't. I don't like them taking money from the fans.

Yes, they are taking money from the fans, even if it goes to YSnet, because every dollar donated by a fan is one less dollar that should have come from Sony's pockets.

 

[John Bender]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT is happening now.

a. They helped Suzuki announce the Kickstarter in the most glorious way
b. They are also helping funding (mostly in order for it to show up on PS4, and on consoles, PS4 only)

What risk should they get? If they get no sales for Shenmue III, their money is lost. What more risk you want?

This is a "no good way to do this" situation, if no one funds Shenmue, fuck them, if Sony helps out, fuck them, if they disclose the info, it is moneyhatting, if they do not, then it is shady.

I mean, WHAT. The main part of the development will be made from contributor's money. Sony does not rake the profits, they are helping out with an unknown amount of money in order for the game to turn up on PS4, and that is it.

I was already typing, but then I saw your post. Exactly what I was writing a few seconds ago. I actually think the whole "it's shady, not right" story here is absurd. Seriously.

Sigh... Yes, they have SOME investment. But, OBVIOUSLY, they aren't funding the whole thing. I said it before, either fund it or don't. I don't like them taking money from the fans.

Yes, they are taking money from the fans, even if it goes to YSnet, because every dollar donated by a fan is one less dollar that should have come from Sony's pockets.

Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[V_Arnold]

Sigh... Yes, they have SOME investment. But, OBVIOUSLY, they aren't funding the whole thing. I said it before, either fund it or don't. I don't like them taking money from the fans.

Yes, they are taking money from the fans, even if it goes to YSnet, because every dollar donated by a fan is one less dollar that should have come from Sony's pockets.

This makes no sense. Sorry. They are not taking money from the fans.
There is no reality in which you get the fan feedback and clarity from the crowdfunding, and the money from Sony.

 

[linkent]

Sigh... Yes, they have SOME investment. But, OBVIOUSLY, they aren't funding the whole thing. I said it before, either fund it or don't. I don't like them taking money from the fans.

Yes, they are taking money from the fans, even if it goes to YSnet, because every dollar donated by a fan is one less dollar that should have come from Sony's pockets.

How many time does this has to be mentioned?
Sony is not a Charity.

If they are funding this totally, this will be their project where each sales is going into their pocket.
But it isnt, it is totally YS project and they are supporting this with E3 stage which reach out much more gamer.
Nobody going to fund this game. That is why it is in KS.

 

[Steroyd]

One thing to consider when it comes to Kickstarter being exploited is that the average Joe consumer doesn't know what kickstarter is and will likely never use it. Most people who actually follow Kickstarter projects are much more aware of the general state of the industry and shenanigans that go on within it. Even this whole Shenmue (ridiculous) drama is about a very niche game. This is not Call Of Duty or Assassin's Creed of which the typical user is not into gaming beyond just playing them. If they tried to abuse to Kickstarter system for this a more mainstream game, I would be surprised if it didn't ultimately backfire. Besides DLC and pay to win abuse is more likely and profitable for companies like EA and Activision.

If anything, this whole Shenmue thing probably proves why a Kickstarter initiated by a multi-million corporation wouldn't work.

All Sony's done was give Yu Suzuki the biggest possible platform to launch a Kickstarter ever with great results, the backlash comes from asking why Sony let that happen in their conference and people jumping to conclusions that the whole thing is being funded by Sony by merely saying they're going to help the dev team.

 

[The Spoony Hou]

How many time does this has to be mentioned?
Sony is not a Charity.

If they are funding this totally, this will be their project where each sales is going into their pocket.
But it isnt, it is totally YS project and they are supporting this with E3 stage which reach out much more gamer.
Nobody going to fund this game. That is why it is in KS.

Well, if Sony has nothing to do with it, they are just being nice and giving them free advertising, that's fine. But I do think they are investing some money in that.

 

[Tuffty]

Sigh... Yes, they have SOME investment. But, OBVIOUSLY, they aren't funding the whole thing. I said it before, either fund it or don't. I don't like them taking money from the fans.

Yes, they are taking money from the fans, even if it goes to YSnet, because every dollar donated by a fan is one less dollar that should have come from Sony's pockets.

The ideal reality is that Sony or Sega or any major publisher coughs up a multi million dollar budget but it's too much of a gamble, and they're not charities. Getting it Kickstarted with a little support from a big publisher to get a console port and support is the next best scenario. This is the situation we have and I would guess, most Shenmue fans are delighted we're getting the game at all, something which we never thought would happen this time last week.

 

[linkent]

Well, if Sony has nothing to do with it, they are just being nice and giving them free advertising, that's fine. But I do think they are investing some money in that.

So Sony giving money and supporting this game to be in their platform is a bad thing now?

 

[Synth]

This is the situation we have and I would guess, most Shenmue fans are delighted we're getting the game at all, something which we never thought would happen this time last week.

It is well documented on NeoGAF that I always believed.

 

[B E N K E]

It would seem Shenmue 3 has a similar deal to No Man's Sky in that Sony will provide marketing in return for exclusivity (timed?). Personally I'm surprised they haven't fessed up to the exact nature of it, but I assume someone involved with the Kickstarter felt it wasn't in its best interest to disclose an exclusivity deal even if only PC and PS4 are promised. At least there is a choice and the deal doesn't screw over 100% of the fans of the previous games (like the Shenmue 2 exclusivity deal did in North America).

The people who criticise Kickstarters typically only look at it as a means to get funding. And if that's the way you look at it, then yes, there are better ways to fund Shenmue 3. Personally I feel that if done right Shenmue 3 will benefit from fan involvement. The campaign obviously needs more transparency, but if this project can be done without too much publisher involvement I think we all benefit. It's still a very risky proposition, of course. But it's always going to be that, regardless of who puts up the money.

 

[The Spoony Hou]

The ideal reality is that Sony or Sega or any major publisher coughs up a multi million dollar budget but it's too much of a gamble, and they're not charities. Getting it Kickstarted with a little support from a big publisher to get a console port and support is the next best scenario. This is the situation we have and I would guess, most Shenmue fans are delighted we're getting the game at all, something which we never thought would happen this time last week.

I understand that it's too much a gamble. I'm just saying I don't like this and it sounds fishy to me.

So Sony giving money and supporting this game to be in their platform is a bad thing now?

If anyone can donate money for the project, they aught to know what's going to happen with it, and knowing Sony's role is important. But hey, it's not my money.

 

[Steroyd]

If anyone can donate money for the project, they aught to know what's going to happen with it, and knowing Sony's role is important. But hey, it's not my money.

Sony made it crystal clear that it was an independent project on stage, they even did a Q&A in the PlayStation Live event detailing Sony's involvement, and a few days after that Yu Suzuki solidified that Kickstarter is the main method of recieving funds.

It's the whole people reading between the lines is where things become a mess for the most part.

 

[linkent]

I understand that it's too much a gamble. I'm just saying I don't like this and it sounds fishy to me.

If anyone can donate money for the project, they aught to know what's going to happen with it, and knowing Sony's role is important. But hey, it's not my money.

Let just simplify this, what i think about this project.

YS going to make Shenmue3.
Sony and YS struck a deal where Sony will provide marketing/funds/development to give is game to Sony PS4
(Since the other platform not interested on this anyway, YS agreed)
They also agree that it will be in PC since most fans may not have a PS4.
Since Sony doesnt want to fully fund this/YS still want this to be their project, they decide on Kickstarter.
$2 millions will let YS make a Shenmue3 game
$5 millions will make it have more content
$10 millions will make it into full open world experience
(They should have put this goal into the KS Page instead of Reddit AMA)
Sony give them the stage in E3, they get the huge coverage for this game.
Sony happy, YS happy, fans Happy.

Problem with Sony involvement and game coming out on Ps4 FIRST, the other platform are saying they moneyhatting this.
Sony taking fans money from this project.
Sony should fund this game fully.
Then some journalists claim this as a Sony Scam, Shady Business.
Then some saying this will be a practice of other big publisher.

Ultimately, if the only way dead franchise is going to be revived with KS, then so be it.
Let the fans happy.

Big publisher is not going to put their sure sell game into KS.
Kickstarter is not free, they will charge 5%+3% off the total fees.
People will preorder their game anyway, they will just stick with it.

And if it really happen, people can always choose to not fund it.
(Nobody is holding anyone hostage!!)

 

[Y2Kev]

It makes no sense for major publisher to use Kickstarter from a financial point of view, I think. I'd have to run the numbers, but considering that you have you give up a significant portion of your take to Kickstarter (could be comparable to an interest payment) and it counts as income (so it is taxed, I believe) and there are no tax-deductible interest payments (for US publishers), you're looking at an all-in cost that is higher than just using debt financing or paying for projects with regular cash flow.

Again, this is just off the top of my head. Obviously you're not creating "debt," but these companies just refinance debt endlessly anyway so it's not like they pay it back. The quantum of capital raised will require them to continue to use regular financing sources anyway (you can't finance AssCrud with kickstarter under any circumstance, sorry).

I was thinking about this last night. Has anyone talking about the slippery slope looked into the fact that the slope is incredibly expensive? Everyone talks about how it is limited but not why publishers don't already use it (traditional financing sources are cheaper).

 

[No_Style]

I rarely watch Jimquisition but I watched this episode in hopes that he'll elaborate or shed light on why it's bad for Ubisoft/EA and other big publishers from to use Kickstarter. I kept reading and hearing that big publishers using Kickstarter is a terrible thing and that it'll ruin the platform. I wanted to know how they would defile it.

Unfortunately he didn't delve much deeper than stating that big publishers will just warp and twist it. He did a great summation of the situation though.

 

[Three]

Sigh... Yes, they have SOME investment. But, OBVIOUSLY, they aren't funding the whole thing. I said it before, either fund it or don't. I don't like them taking money from the fans.

Yes, they are taking money from the fans, even if it goes to YSnet, because every dollar donated by a fan is one less dollar that should have come from Sony's pockets.

What? They did make it perfectly clear that the project is Yu's and YS'. You think because sony is also helping with funding they should have funded the whole thing? When it's not their project? Sony is just a supporter, a backer, of the project. Almost no different to any other backer. Why don't you ask any individual backer on kickstarter the same question and you would see how funny your last paragraph sounds?

It's bizarre how Sony providing support to a project too has turned into something negative. It's strange because this situation isn't even a first but it's getting this strangely cynical response. Is it the exclusivity that's making people salty? The fact that it happened at E3? What is it about this that has got a few vocal people riled up?

 

[Surta]

I don't really know why Corsi said this if this isn't the case?

Corsi is the director of third party production and developer relations. So, when he said "we", he probably didn't mean the entirety of Sony, but just his team. At your source, you can also read "and it’s going to be run through third-party production".
And let's not ignore the Shuhei Yoshida interview:

Q: Why did Sony PlayStation decide to allow that crowdfunding announcement as opposed to funding it?
A: Ah, no, no, no. It's a very exciting project and there are lots of PlayStation fans asking for it. But it's a Sega IP and of course Suzuki Yu-san is the creator. So somehow Suzuki-san was able to work out with Sega to allow them to Kickstart the project. And because we liked the project, our third-party relations team struck a deal to help Kickstart the campaign at the E3 conference. That's great PR.

There've also been reports about Suzuki looking into Kickstarer for several years now, after lots of different people have suggested it to him.

 

[Cave Johnson]

I understand that it's too much a gamble. I'm just saying I don't like this and it sounds fishy to me.



If anyone can donate money for the project, they aught to know what's going to happen with it, and knowing Sony's role is important. But hey, it's not my money.

Sony's role is minor. Name me any major Sony backing game that had a PC support simultaneously along with it: The Order, Journey, Flower, RIME, Everybody's gone to Rapture, etc are all SONY backed and yet you can't find a PC port for these games. So explain to me why Shenmue is so special that Sony is so kind enough to let a port like that happen if they are supposedly providing a "solid" backing. That makes no sense at all, it would financially distribute funds between PS4 and PC tiers. Hell, there isn't a physical PS4 tier should be very telling how much influence Sony has in the project.

 

[Florida_Man_5000]

I agree with Jim on this one. I don't like the idea of a kickstarter with pre-arranged and undisclosed exclusivity agreements. The precedent it sets could be dangerous. Only time will tell.

 

[Littlefang]

Corsi is the director of third party production and developer relations. So, when he said "we", he probably didn't mean the entirety of Sony, but just his team. At your source, you can also read "and it’s going to be run through third-party production".
And let's not ignore the Shuhei Yoshida interview:



There've also been reports about Suzuki looking into Kickstarer for several years now, after lots of different people have suggested it to him.

Ah, see it still comes across to me as Sony wanting to provide funds based on the kickstarter, but I can see how it's more along the lines of "we'll make sure fans know about this project."

I think all this talk about "Sony taking fan's money" stems from the fact that Kickstarter is not the ideal platform for crowdfunding. Mainly due to the fact that nobody is legally obligated to deliver an actual product. I mean how would that even work? It would have to be some sort of a class-action lawsuit, but realistically nobody is going to have the initiative or the ability to do such a thing. Kickstarter has made it infinitely clear that it's not their obligation.

So most of the times this is okay. Project creators strive to deliver a final product to project backers and a project can come into fruition because of this system. And yes sometimes projects don't get completed for whatever reason. Now normally a refund is issued, but that's not always been the case. The issues stem from when larger developers and publishers begin to get involved in Kickstarter.

Yes it is a risk when using Kickstarter that a project may not be completed, but if a project creator doesn't give a refund, it's literally because they don't have the money to do so. Now the big issue with publishers/large developers using Kickstarter is that they do have the capacity to issue refunds to the backers, but that doesn't mean they necessarily will. And one of the problems with assessing whether they will or not stems from the fact that a project that has a large external investment (at least not to my knowledge) hasn't failed to deliver on that final product.

But what's the recourse in this kind of situation? Sony can easily wash its hands of Amplitude or Deep Silver of Bloodstained and say "Well it wasn't our kickstarter" if these projects fail to deliver. Then the project creators are possibly left without the capacity to refund the backers despite the external investment. And yes I'm sure Sony got away with it's Amplitude involvement mostly because that kickstarter wasn't as highly publicized.

So people (such as myself) view Sony as somebody who has the capacity to introduce a better alternative to Kickstarter, one that they own and can enforce, but they haven't. They are a larger company than Deep Silver which kind of puts them up to extra scrutiny.

And yes, as it stands the way Kickstarter is now, is working. Issues arise when large developers/publishers try to shape it in order to implement their own practices rather than introducing alternatives. And I don't think anybody has a grudge against Sony in particular, but they are currently setting a precedent that it's okay for large companies to use Kickstarter.

But that's kind of just the way I view the situation.

 

[Cave Johnson]

Ah, see it still comes across to me as Sony wanting to provide funds based on the kickstarter, but I can see how it's more along the lines of "we'll make sure fans know about this project."

I think all this talk about "Sony taking fan's money" stems from the fact that Kickstarter is not the ideal platform for crowdfunding. Mainly due to the fact that nobody is legally obligated to deliver an actual product. I mean how would that even work? It would have to be some sort of a class-action lawsuit, but realistically nobody is going to have the initiative or the ability to do such a thing. Kickstarter has made it infinitely clear that it's not their obligation.

So most of the times this is okay. Project creators strive to deliver a final product to project backers and a project can come into fruition because of this system. And yes sometimes projects don't get completed for whatever reason. Now normally a refund is issued, but that's not always been the case. The issues stem from when larger developers and publishers begin to get involved in Kickstarter.

Yes it is a risk when using Kickstarter that a project may not be completed, but if a project creator doesn't give a refund, it's literally because they don't have the money to do so. Now the big issue with publishers/large developers using Kickstarter is that they do have the capacity to issue refunds to the backers, but that doesn't mean they necessarily will. And one of the problems with assessing whether they will or not stems from the fact that a project that has a large external investment (at least not to my knowledge) hasn't failed to deliver on that final product.

But what's the recourse in this kind of situation? Sony can easily wash its hands of Amplitude or Deep Silver of Bloodstained and say "Well it wasn't our kickstarter" if these projects fail to deliver. Then the project creators are possibly left without the capacity to refund the backers despite the external investment. And yes I'm sure Sony got away with it's Amplitude involvement mostly because that kickstarter wasn't as highly publicized.

So people (such as myself) view Sony as somebody who has the capacity to introduce a better alternative to Kickstarter, one that they own and can enforce, but they haven't. They are a larger company than Deep Silver which kind of puts them up to extra scrutiny.

And yes, as it stands the way Kickstarter is now, is working. Issues arise when large developers/publishers try to shape it in order to implement their own practices rather than introducing alternatives. And I don't think anybody has a grudge against Sony in particular, but they are currently setting a precedent that it's okay for large companies to use Kickstarter.

But that's kind of just the way I view the situation.

Again, none of the money is going to SONY. Why are we coming back to this narrative? They are not even confirmed to be the publisher for crying out loud.

 

[Synth]

Again, none of the money is going to SONY. Why are we coming back to this narrative? They are not even confirmed to be the publisher for crying out loud.

None of the Kickstarter money goes directly to Sony... but every copy of Shenmue sold on PS4 will be paying them their standard cut, so it's not like they have nothing to gain from it (especially if they have a deal in place preventing ports for whatever time window).

 

[Brashnir]

I tend to feel like the situation with pre-order DLC and post-release DLC has gotten way worse than anyone could have imagined back when Bethesda first introduced their Horse Armor DLC for Oblivion. So I really don't have much of a problem with people hypothetically discussing a "worst case scenario" for Kickstarters, because the worst case scenario is probably going to be worse than anything I can imagine.

A lot of these Kickstarters tend to revolve around milking nostalgic diehard fans for way more money than they would normally pay for a Collector's Edition. In the Shenmue threads alone I read about people committing to pledges of $150 or $300. I suspect that things will continue in this direction, since all the big publishers are looking for whales.

How do we hunt for whales without Microtransactions?

Here's your answer.

Spoiler

and it's only a matter of time until one of these games gets kickstarted and then still includes microtransactions later

 

[Steroyd]

Ah, see it still comes across to me as Sony wanting to provide funds based on the kickstarter, but I can see how it's more along the lines of "we'll make sure fans know about this project."

That much is obvious if the game didn't get funded then Sony would have washed their hands of the situation.

None of the Kickstarter money goes directly to Sony... but every copy of Shenmue sold on PS4 will be paying them their standard cut, so it's not like they have nothing to gain from it (especially if they have a deal in place preventing ports for whatever time window).

That is a weird point to make, for the last 18 months Sony has been doing exactly this with indies and the pub fund, and of course it makes their system look the more attractive and they get royalties from more games coming to their system, that's how they've operated since PS1, the difference is that this is Shenmue fucking III son instead of Axiom Verge.

 

[Cave Johnson]

None of the Kickstarter money goes directly to Sony... but every copy of Shenmue sold on PS4 will be paying them their standard cut, so it's not like they have nothing to gain from it (especially if they have a deal in place preventing ports for whatever time window).

Like all PS4 games. This is standard policy, kickstarter or not. Second, there's no deal to prevent ports, that's ID@XBox.

 

[sechsterangriff]

None of the Kickstarter money goes directly to Sony... but every copy of Shenmue sold on PS4 will be paying them their standard cut, so it's not like they have nothing to gain from it (especially if they have a deal in place preventing ports for whatever time window).

Dude, every partner that does not include kickstarter backers is looking to get something off of this in exchange for support. That's true for Shenmue 3, Bloodstained and every other campaign that secured additional funds besides crowdfunding. Fangamer gets something, Deep Silver gets something, and so on...

 

[Synth]

^^^ To all three posts above.

Yea, I know this is standard practice, kickstarter or not.

However, being affiliated with a kickstarter does have some unique advantages. They get to secure a window of exclusivity at a time where there is essentially zero risk involved. If the Shenmue kickstarter crashed and burned, then the game doesn't get made, and as a result any agreements for marketing or assisted development or whatever that Sony and YS.net have agreed to become null and void. So essentially Sony only commits to its side of the bargain once the fanbase has proven it to be worth their investment. This isn't generally the case when console manufacturers secure any period of exclusivity, as they will typically need to commit upfront before knowing whether or not this commitment will pay off. The more known the entity, the more expensive the commitment will likely be (so gaining an exclusivity period on something like Tomb Raider probably costs something ridiculous), so even previously successful IP carries that sort of risk. Having the project go through kickstarter first removes the majority of that risk.

 

[Cave Johnson]

^^^ To all three posts above.

Yea, I know this is standard practice, kickstarter or not.

However, being affiliated with a kickstarter does have some unique advantages. They get to secure a window of exclusivity at a time where there is essentially zero risk involved. If the Shenmue kickstarter crashed and burned, then the game doesn't get made, and as a result any agreements for marketing or assisted development or whatever that Sony and YS.net have agreed to become null and void. So essentially Sony only commits to its side of the bargain once the fanbase has proven it to be worth their investment. This isn't generally the case when console manufacturers secure any period of exclusivity, as they will typically need to commit upfront before knowing whether or not this commitment will pay off. The more known the entity, the more expensive the commitment will likely be (so gaining an exclusivity period on something like Tomb Raider probably costs something ridiculous), so even previously successful IP carries that sort of risk. Having the project go through kickstarter first removes the majority of that risk.

There is no exclusivity agreement. This isn't an indie pub fund scenario, it's a kickstarter.

 

[Remachinate]

It makes no sense for major publisher to use Kickstarter from a financial point of view, I think. I'd have to run the numbers, but considering that you have you give up a significant portion of your take to Kickstarter (could be comparable to an interest payment) and it counts as income (so it is taxed, I believe) and there are no tax-deductible interest payments (for US publishers), you're looking at an all-in cost that is higher than just using debt financing or paying for projects with regular cash flow.

Again, this is just off the top of my head. Obviously you're not creating "debt," but these companies just refinance debt endlessly anyway so it's not like they pay it back. The quantum of capital raised will require them to continue to use regular financing sources anyway (you can't finance AssCrud with kickstarter under any circumstance, sorry).

I was thinking about this last night. Has anyone talking about the slippery slope looked into the fact that the slope is incredibly expensive? Everyone talks about how it is limited but not why publishers don't already use it (traditional financing sources are cheaper).

Actually, any amount of Kickstarter money raised is effectively "free" to the recipient from a tax perspective. Yes, the money is taxable in the year received, but that's just a timing issue, as the recipient can fully deduct all that money in the year spent, whether directed towards backer rewards or development costs. So unless the recipient is pocketing some contributions, it's a wash as the net tax bill across years is zero.

Of course, one would have to weigh the opportunity cost of sales lost to backers, but otherwise Kickstarter would be generally much more preferable than capital or debt financing, since there's no cash outlay on the developer (no risk), and you don't even have to carry debt, nor give up equity ownership.

 

[Synth]

There is no exclusivity agreement. This isn't an indie pub fund scenario, it's a kickstarter.

I cannot talk about the specifics of the deal, but I can talk about the set-up.

It's the third-party relations team's work. They've been supporting many indie developers - you've seen Adam Boyes or Shahid Ahmad showcasing indie developers over the last few years. When the third party relations team identifies some great indie game being developed they strike a deal so it comes on PlayStation first on console, or something like that.

You were saying?

 

[Cave Johnson]

You were saying?

That seems like a non-answer. Here's a tidbit you missed out on during the rest of the interview.

"There's a variety of ways of support, including financial support. When the game's not being funded at that point, the developer has to come up with some funding themselves, for third party relations team to help - because third party relations is third party relations - if we fund the project then it's first party! It's my job! There's a great difference. If Suzuki's Kickstarter is successful [and very quickly after our conversation it was], SCEA will add funding and other support."

From the way you implied it, it would have gone the direction of the bolded - which isn't the case. The majority of the backing is on kickstarter; kickstarter hasn't been successful yet so SCEA hasn't even dipped a single dollar according to your referenced quote. So until that time arrives, we are unaware of any "exclusivity" deals beforehand.

 

[Synth]

That seems like a non-answer. Here's a tidbit you missed out on during the rest of the interview.

From the way you implied it, it would have gone the direction of the bolded - which isn't the case. The majority of the backing is on kickstarter; kickstarter hasn't been successful yet so SCEA hasn't even dipped a single dollar according to your referenced quote. So until that time arrives, we are unaware of any "exclusivity" deals beforehand.

I missed that bit out deliberately because it refers to them fully funding a project, and it then becoming "first party". It's not relevant to Shenmue II's case. I wasn't going to quote everything regardless of if it's applicable or not.

The idea that they are yet to commit anything is the entire point. They only add funds when we make the campaign a success first. This is what I'm saying about the risk being mostly alleviated on Sony's side when aligning themselves with a Kickstarter campaign. If it doesn't get funded (or hell, if it does get funded and then blows up during development), they're free to walk. However if it all goes as planned, then they get a window of console exclusivity. Seems pretty simple to understand imo.

 

[BMX Bandit]

Your cynicism may be clouding your judgment here. Hell, the big reason Sony decided to go through with this deal was probably for good will. Not big profits. I'll stand by what I've said before. Once we see games on Kickstarter that would have definitely been made anyway, then I'll cry foul.

Yeh. This game was sitting around for what? 15 years? And no one wanted to publish it. This game will most likely not be very profitable when it does release. The crying about this kickstarter is just bizarre.

 

[Littlefang]

There is no exclusivity agreement. This isn't an indie pub fund scenario, it's a kickstarter.

I mean you might not call it an exclusivity agreement, but the game is coming to no other console other than PS4 which is a form of exclusivity. I'm not personally outraged by this as I don't own an Xbox, but I can see why people view this in particular as Sony taking advantage of the situation. I can't really think of any other kickstarter projects that tote exclusivity when it hasn't been specifically regarding the Ouya. I'm assuming Amplitude would be exclusive, but that kickstarter didn't garner as much attention as Shenmue. And because Shenmue at this point in time is the most prominent example of an exclusivity deal regarding kickstarter, it kind of gets the brunt of the ire.

 

[linkent]

I missed that bit out deliberately because it refers to them fully funding a project, and it then becoming "first party". It's not relevant to Shenmue II's case. I wasn't going to quote everything regardless of if it's applicable or not.

The idea that they are yet to commit anything is the entire point. They only add funds when we make the campaign a success first. This is what I'm saying about the risk being mostly alleviated on Sony's side when aligning themselves with a Kickstarter campaign. If it doesn't get funded (or hell, if it does get funded and then blows up during development), they're free to walk. However if it all goes as planned, then they get a window of console exclusivity. Seems pretty simple to understand imo.

There is no exclusivity deal.
They simply dont have the resources to do multiple ports.
Sony helps so they automatically included in the first platform to get the game.
If MS willing to pay, they will get it too. But they dont.

The FAQ is there in the kickstarter. Clearly stated no plan for other platforms but no mention with exclusivity.
Sony is clear too with their saying "coming to playstation first"
Both are easy to undertand that the game can be released on other consoles provided they have the resources.
(Unlike RoTR exclusive | Winter 2015)

I mean you might not call it an exclusivity agreement, but the game is coming to no other console other than PS4 which is a form of exclusivity. I'm not personally outraged by this as I don't own an Xbox, but I can see why people view this in particular as Sony taking advantage of the situation. I can't really think of any other kickstarter projects that tote exclusivity when it hasn't been specifically regarding the Ouya. I'm assuming Amplitude would be exclusive, but that kickstarter didn't garner as much attention as Shenmue. And because Shenmue at this point in time is the most prominent example of an exclusivity deal regarding kickstarter, it kind of gets the brunt of the ire.

Again Littlefang seems to never read. How do they magically develop the game on all console when $2mil is what they get to barely produce Shenmue3?
You keep on saying that you dont own Xbox, then what is the problem for you?
You know you can play it on PC too right? (Nvm you will never read this)

 

[Littlefang]

There is no exclusivity deal.
They simply dont have the resources to do multiple ports.
Sony helps so they automatically included in the first platform to get the game.
If MS willing to pay, they will get it too. But they dont.

The FAQ is there in the kickstarter. Clearly stated no plan for other platforms but no mention with exclusivity.
Sony is clear too with their saying "coming to playstation first"
Both are easy to undertand that the game can be released on other consoles provided they have the resources.
(Unlike RoTR exclusive | Winter 2015)

Wouldn't it make more sense that they have an exclusivity deal in place because there are no plans to make the game for other consoles? I mean that's generally what stretch goals are there for, to help get funding for things like that for when they cannot afford to port a game to different consoles. I mean I (and many others) are assuming that there's a console exclusivity deal in place, but you're assuming that they simply can't afford to port to other consoles. We can't be sure on what the situation really is until someone actually states it.

Again Littlefang seems to never read. How do they magically develop the game on all console when $2mil is what they get to barely produce Shenmue3?
You keep on saying that you dont own Xbox, then what is the problem for you?
You know you can play it on PC too right? (Nvm you will never read this)

Like I said you are assuming they can't get the funding when nobody has explicitly stated that.

 

[Kinyou]

There is no exclusivity deal.
They simply dont have the resources to do multiple ports.
Sony helps so they automatically included in the first platform to get the game.
If MS willing to pay, they will get it too. But they dont.

The FAQ is there in the kickstarter. Clearly stated no plan for other platforms but no mention with exclusivity.
Sony is clear too with their saying "coming to playstation first"
Both are easy to undertand that the game can be released on other consoles provided they have the resources.
(Unlike RoTR exclusive | Winter 2015)

Since they're saying "coming to playstation first" it means they have a deal. Probably not permanent exclusivity, but that the playstation is the first console it comes for seems to be agreed on, no matter how much MS pays nows.