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"I'm a Christian who believes the Bible, and I don't believe in homosexual marriage."

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PulseONE

Member
Please point to the post where I said homosexuals shouldn't be able/allowed to be in a homosexual relationship. I'm saying that I think christians should love all people and that I'd encourage everyone to seek God and find out what he has to say to them.

The second part wasn't directed at you, was to Jiggly Kanye

But I suppose it applies to you as well.
So then you're saying it's perfectly fine for gay people to get into relationships and get married, if that's the case why all the discussing trying to convince us otherwise?
 
You're not doing yourself any favors by equating it to race. Let it be it's own thing. Because it's not the same thing.
Both naturally occurring traits in an organism. For some, being gay is as natural as having melanin.

Both are removed from agreement or condemnation or judgement because they are immutable facts.
 
If God said "I have a better life for you", and he created the world and us, why is that a shitty proposition? (unless God lied about having a better life)
I don't think you have any empathy for gay people. Your religion and other social constructs set up a system by which gay people are disproportionately abused to the point where they have a ridiculously high suicide rate in youth and young adulthood. To go around and deny them the love and positive relationships which make them truly happy is obscene and is denying them a chance at a "better life".

I really want you to understand how damaging your position is.
 
'II this exact thing on my Facebook. I commented that if they were a true Christian than according to their Bible the gays should be put to death. I have yet to get a response. I'm not a religious person at all and think gay marriage is no big deal. The whole "I'm just a Christian, I'm not judging you I just believe something different" is a cop out to me. If they truly were Christians than they would not be ok with it and would want the gays to be put to death. So which is it?
 

MMaRsu

Banned
Yes-I-am-a-Christian-I-believe-the-bible.jpg


What the fuck is this shit? I've seen it floating around Facebook a bunch recently and I don't get it. How can you love and accept your friends if you completely disagree with their lifestyle? How is this not still bigotry? I don't get it.

These people are backwards idiots. Delete them from ur friends list
 
edit: I don't think homosexuality is an abomination, I just think it's not what God intended.
Then maybe God shouldn't make people in such a way that they cannot follow his intentions.

Look, I'm happy with the ruling and glad that we as people are making progress. But you can't be serious with a dumb statement like that. I disagree with my friends on a shit ton of issues, and we're still best of friends. wtf.
Disagreeing with my friend over whether the Fast and Furious franchise is good or whether gun control laws need to be more restrictive is not the fucking same as someone disagreeing with an innate part of me, my very existence, and seeking a loving relationship.

How the fuck can you equate the two? You'd be friends with someone who disagrees with your existence?

Also, can you explain to me how disagreeing with homosexuality means you hate gay people? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
"I disagree with your existence and think you should live and die alone and unloved." Sounds like love if you ask me. I regularly tell my friends and family I disagree with their existence; I feel it really cements a bond of love and respect.

No it wouldn't. You're equating a difference in how your brain works to a difference in skin color. There's a difference in being a different race, and being gay. It's a functional difference in how your brain works. Saying you don't agree with what gay people do is nothing like saying you don't agree with what color a black person's skin is. It doesn't even make sense to me how that comparison could come up.
Stop making this damn distinction between who we are and what we "do," as if the two can be separated. They fucking can't be. So having different brain chemistry versus an outward difference of appearance means that we get the distinction of having a "choice" over being who we are? "But I never said you had a choice!" you'll shout. Too bad that's a natural byproduct of separating orientation from what people "do," which makes the "do" part a conscious action that must be chosen to be made.

If anything, it makes it more fucked up that you think it's ok to disagree with people living out an existence caused by different brain chemistry. We have no control over what we're attracted to but living an existence based on that is something that can be "disagreed" with. What?
 

Alucrid

Banned
I read the message as the person saying "look I don't agree with your lifestyle choice but I I am still going to treat you with respect, all I ask is to be treated with respect as well for my belief system". Folks can disagree on things wholeheartedly but can still be accepting and respectful at the same time.

Basically tolerance works both ways.
That's great but it's coming right after they lost a battle that's been going on for decades. Clearly there's some hidden meaning behind those words.
 

Rosenskjold

Member
The second part wasn't directed at you, was to Jiggly Kanye

But I suppose it applies to you as well.
So then you're saying it's perfectly fine for gay people to get into relationships and get married, if that's the case why all the discussing trying to convince us otherwise?

Well people are allowed to live pretty much however they please no? I'm just saying, God has a plan for everyone and says he has a life far richer than the one we could make for ourselves.

And to make sure they know gay is wrong.

You still don't see how that is abuse do you?

Well, I stand convicted by my own words. No I don't think it's important to make sure they know "gay is wrong". I don't think it's wrong to be a homosexual. Sadly I've managed to completely misrepresent what I think the church should be doing: Telling people the good news that Jesus died for us and he wants to be in a relationship with us.
 

Addi

Member
I used to be Christian, though I was never a conservative, these people always seemed completely stupid to me. I had no issue with evolution (I saw the genesis as a poetic text telling us God created the world, not how. I mean, if a God had appeared to people thousands of years ago and told them about evolution, they wouldn't have understood shit) or homosexuality. I haven't checked if it's correct or not, but I was told that in Moses' time, the ceremony of marriage was simply the couple getting behind a curtain and start shagging. I saw sex as marriage, two becoming one etc. All that "no sex before marriage" talk was bullshit to me because sex was marriage. Sex was something you did with someone you loved, sex without love was the sin in my eyes. In that sense, I interpreted the verses about homosexuality more as something against heterosexuals having gay sex than against homosexuality. Gays were created that way by God, if they found someone they loved, they could get married, the unnatural thing for them would have been to have sex with a person of the opposite sex, that would have been a sin. Also, Jesus said nothing against homosexuality, Jesus retconned everything. Love your neighbour, don't be judgemental etc. He was bestie with all the people that were oppressed by society, today he would definitely have a had a rainbow avatar. Conservatives are backwards, Jesus would be against them lol.

Anyway, maybe I did a lot of mental gymnastics back then to make things fit, doesn't matter today, I'm not a Christian. I'm happy for the US and the biggots can shut up (or not, the salt is fun). People can marry whoever they want and fuck whoever they want, even if they love them or not. Please Christian people, fuck your girlfriend/boyfriend before marrying, I've seen so many young marriages go to hell simply because they had to get married fast because of blue balls.
 

Rosenskjold

Member
I don't think you have any empathy for gay people. Your religion and other social constructs set up a system by which gay people are disproportionately abused to the point where they have a ridiculously high suicide rate in youth and young adulthood. To go around and deny them the love and positive relationships which make them truly happy is obscene and is denying them a chance at a "better life".

I really want you to understand how damaging your position is.

Well you're wrong, I have a lot of empathy for gay people. And I think the whole crusade against homosexual people is completely contrary to what the bible preaches.
 
Then maybe God shouldn't make people in such a way that they cannot follow his intentions.


Disagreeing with my friend over whether the Fast and Furious franchise is good or whether gun control laws need to be more restrictive is not the fucking same as someone disagreeing with an innate part of me, my very existence, and seeking a loving relationship.

How the fuck can you equate the two? You'd be friends with someone who disagrees with your existence?


"I disagree with your existence and think you should live and die alone and unloved." Sounds like love if you ask me. I regularly tell my friends and family I didagree with their existence; I feel it really cements a bond of love and respect.


Stop making this damn distinction between who we are and what we "do," as if the two can be separated. They fucking can't be. So having different brain chemistry versus an outward difference of appearance means that we get the distinction of having a "choice" over being who we are? "But I never said you had a choice!" you'll shout. Too bad that's a natural byproduct of separating prientation from what people "do," which makes the "do" part a conscious action that must be chosen to be made.

If anything, it makes it more fucked up that you think it's ok to disagree with people living out an existence caused by different brain chemistry. We have no control over what we're attracted to but living an existence based on that is something that can be "disagreed" with. What?

The last part about brain chemistry is a slippery slope, and not a strong foundation for an argument. One can argue against that by saying some people's brain chemistry causes them to steal or kill as well and we obviously don't agree with those things. And no I am not trying to equate these things, our brain chemistry is just as responsible for love, caring, parenthood, etc. One can also say someone's brain chemistry makes them more likely to be religious and hold to the values and beliefs of that religion, so by your argument you too could not disagree with people of religion either.
 
How exactly?
Not that I can speak on their behalf, but my takeaway is that the difference is that, while both are innate qualities of a person, race is strictly a state of being while homosexuality is a state of being AND a set of behaviors amd choices and actions that are made (that can thus be disagreed with.)

I outright reject that argument and the insidious implications of "choice" it contains, as do almost all LGBT people I've known. But I guess that won't stop someone from telling me, a gay guy, what being gay is.
 
Sure is, I don't disagree with that. It's a natural thing. Nothing bad or wrong about it. It is different though.
Are they though? If I ask a black person to stop being black, they obviously cannot. If I tell a gay person to stop being gay- I am telling you- they obviously cannot. Both are organic mechanisms that naturally occur given coded genes and environment. Further applied to us, black people are only black because we invented skin color differentiation, and homosexual life expression is labelled as such because we made more arbitrary selections.

I understand the hesitance around such a loaded comparison, but fail to see how they are not both expressed traits.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Yeah and Hillary in 2015 was absolutely against gay people and gay marriage....


OH WAIT

If the anti-SSM Hillary Clinton was an incurable bigot in 2007/08, and now she has changed her position in a way that is certainly politically advantageous to her electoral prospects, why in the world would she deserve the benefit of the doubt in the midst of all this moral panic and Facebook witch burning?
 

Log4Girlz

Member
I think people opposed to homosexual marriage should avoid it completely and only marry the opposite gender and kindly shut the fuck up and let other consenting adults marry and be happy.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Not that I can speak on their behalf, but my takeaway is that the difference is that, while both are innate qualities of a person, race is strictly a state of being while homosexuality is a state of being AND a set of behaviors and choices and actions that are made (that can thus be disagreed with.)

Well, you hit the nail on the head. I understand why you can reject this argument, but this is what I was saying.

People can disagree with the actions, and the choices made, while not hating the person.

People who hate the state of being that is gay, also hate the person. There's no way around that.

That may be wrong in your eyes, because you say they're not separate. But I think there's a difference in the type of person that is. Even if the two people who take these views are bad, and worse. I still think there's a difference.
 
This whole post has be scratching my head. I'm not even sure what it's trying to say.

I don't understand how someone could label someone's lifestyle as an abomination and still think they aren't judging people. The act of labeling their lifestyle as an abomination is judgmental in itself.

Tolerance is not acceptance. (and "abomination" seems like a strong word)
 
Sadly I've managed to completely misrepresent what I think the church should be doing: Telling people the good news that Jesus died for us and he wants to be in a relationship with us.
As a former Christian, I would advise you to spend less time reiterating God's views on sin and sinners that all LGBT people have heard countless times, sometimes while being emotionally or physically abused by people of faith, and instead focus on being a source of positivity, support, and love in the lives of people you think need God's love. You will not only reflect well on God and Christianity by doing so, and fulfill His commands on how to act as His embodiment in the world, you better leave open the chance for dialogue.

Well you're wrong, I have a lot of empathy for gay people. And I think the whole crusade against homosexual people is completely contrary to what the bible preaches.
That is something nice to read, at least.

The last part about brain chemistry is a slippery slope, and not a strong foundation for an argument. One can argue against that by saying some people's brain chemistry causes them to steal or kill as well and we obviously don't agree with those things. And no I am not trying to equate these things, our brain chemistry is just as responsible for love, caring, parenthood, etc. One can also say someone's brain chemistry makes them more likely to be religious and hold to the values and beliefs of that religion, so by your argument you too could not disagree with people of religion either.
Uh... nope. Being more likely to be religious does not directly cause nor correlate to holding bigoted views; one is not more inclined to believe homosexuality is a sin by their brain chemistry. The fuck are you even arguing? It's utter nonsense. You're making a fallacious leap from "more likely to be religious" (which itself is a baseless presumption) to "can't help but think homosexuality is a sin" so you can set up a false equivalence between being unable to help themselves believing homosexuality is a sin to actually being gay, and quite hinestly, it's ludicrous. All homosexuals are inclined (by nature, whatever its mechanism) to one specific unavoidable behavior, but the diversity of views among those who hold faith on homosexuaity (and other issues) make your comparison a complete farce. There are branches of Christianity that welcome LGBT people among them, even into the clergy, but being inclined to faith necessitates a bigoted view that can't be helped?

Nonsense.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Uh... nope. Being more likely to be religious does not directly cause nor correlate to holding bigoted views; one is not more inclined to believe homosexuality is a sin by their brain chemistry. The fuck are you even arguing? It's utter nonsense. You're making a fallacious leap from "more likely to be religious" (which itself is a baseless presumption) to "can't help but think homosexuality is a sin" so you can set up a false equivalence between being unable to help themselves believing homosexuality is a sin to actually being gay, and quite hinestly, it's ludicrous. All homosexuals are inclined (by nature, whatever its mechanism) to one specific unavoidable behavior, but the diversity of views among those who hold faith on homosexuaity (and other issues) make your comparison a complete farce. There are branches of Christianity that welcome LGBT people among them, even into the clergy, but being inclined to faith necessitates a bigoted view that can't be helped?

Nonsense.

Do you suggest that the people who accept gay people contrary to their religion leave that faith and find another that accepts gay people?

If they don't then they're bigots with no exceptions?
 

Rosenskjold

Member
As a former Christian, I would advise you to spend less time reiterating God's views on sin and sinners that all LGBT people have heard countless times, sometimes while being emotionally or physically abused by people of faith, and instead focus on being a source of positivity, support, and love in the lives of people you think need God's love. You will not only reflect well on God and Christianity by doing so, and fulfill His commands on how to act as His embodiment in the world, you better leave open the chance for dialogue.

Well, you said it better than I have. I was actually just going through my posts to see where I went wrong, because what you said is what I believe people should do: "focus on being a source of positivity, support, and love in the lives of people you think need God's love." And sadly I have done the completely opposite apparently.


That is something nice to read, at least.

Well Jesus is pretty cool, I just don't represent him very well.
 
Do you suggest that the people who accept gay people contrary to their religion leave that faith and find another that accepts gay people?

If they don't then they're bigots with no exceptions?
There have been so many things in the bible that have been retroactively updated to today's society or personally interpreted, I don't see why this is any different.
 
Well, you said it better than I have. I was actually just going through my posts to see where I went wrong, because what you said is what I believe people should do: "focus on being a source of positivity, support, and love in the lives of people you think need God's love." And sadly I have done the completely opposite apparently.




Well Jesus is pretty cool, I just don't represent him very well.

I think it's mostly the disconnect. You're saying that maybe God has something to offer these people, but you haven't really said what, or offered up how that could be "better" than living a happy and fulfilling life with their romantic and sexual partners, a thing that most other people are perfectly free to do in the confines of Christian belief while also still knowing they're going to have this cool afterlife thing too.

Sure, assuming Christianity is right, joining up gets you a cool afterlife. But if you're gay, and that afterlife requires you living a shitty life on Earth for 70+ years, it's a hard sell.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Well, God spoke through a donkey to Balaam, so it's worth a shot ;)

edit: sry about the doublepost

He routinely speaks to people to drown their children and kill people, too.

Or are those "not real Christians"? As far as we know they're as legit as anyone else claiming to hear voices in their head. He has a track record of asking people to kill their kids, after all.
 
Yep, and a crow added pebbles to a pitcher of water in order to drink. Aesop and the Bible offer parables and fables and nothing more.

I'm not arguing for the legitimacy of a talking donkey, but I think the Bible is more than just a collection of Aesop's fables and parables.

At the very least it's a fascinating case study of humanity's expanding consciousness throughout history.
 
I'm not arguing for the legitimacy of a talking donkey, but I think the Bible is more than just a collection of Aesop's fables and parables.

At the very least it's a fascinating case study of humanity's expanding consciousness throughout history.

And that's a positive, theoretical opinion on the Bible. The problem is taking the words of the Bible as fact when it simply is not. If I can attach a religion to Aesop's fables and get enough people to start believing it as truth, then I have the foundation of a religion.

The problem today is that many Christians view the content of the Bible as fact. I'm not talking about the crucifixion or the idea that Jesus was an actual person, because he was. However, the claim that he was the King of the Jews and the incarnation of God is a fallacy. Before and during his life, there were 3 other men to step forward as King of the Jews, and all were executed because of that. The Bible rewrites a man's life to represent more than it actually was.

We have this figurehead who was a proponent of a budding religion and his death sparked the expansion of Christianity. However, the works of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, are simply myths that are misinterpreted and used as fact to support draconian morals and "laws" of right and wrong.
 
Yep, and a crow added pebbles to a pitcher of water in order to drink. Aesop and the Bible offer parables and fables and nothing more.

The Bible is full of historically proven facts. You are flat out wrong saying it offers 'nothing more' than parables and fables.
 

Mecha

Member
Well, you said it better than I have. I was actually just going through my posts to see where I went wrong, because what you said is what I believe people should do: "focus on being a source of positivity, support, and love in the lives of people you think need God's love." And sadly I have done the completely opposite apparently.




Well Jesus is pretty cool, I just don't represent him very well.

The best way to represent Jesus or your religion is to live through example.

1.) Follow the teachings of Jesus (turn the other cheek, love thy enemy, etc).
2.) Help/love others and expect nothing in return.
3.) If someone asks about your beliefs or religion, state them but don't shove it down their throats or expect them to convert.

Living gracefully and for others give a far better impression to others than just telling them that "God is the way". For example, I believe the families of the Charleston shootings forgiving the killer is a way more positive representation of Christianity than what has conspired during these last few days.
 

Rosenskjold

Member
I think it's mostly the disconnect. You're saying that maybe God has something to offer these people, but you haven't really said what, or offered up how that could be "better" than living a happy and fulfilling life with their romantic and sexual partners, a thing that most other people are perfectly free to do in the confines of Christian belief while also still knowing they're going to have this cool afterlife thing too.

Sure, assuming Christianity is right, joining up gets you a cool afterlife. But if you're gay, and that afterlife requires you living a shitty life on Earth for 70+ years, it's a hard sell.

I'm not saying maybe God has something to offer. I'm saying God said that he has something to offer that IS better. So no, I think God has a good life here on earth for us, and a good life after our life here on earth.
 
I see nothing wrong with the message in the OP. If I have a son or a daughter, I would prefer they be straight but if they weren't it wouldn't mean I would love them less nor would I treat anyone else less who were the same. Of course that has nothing to do with a religious belief. It's a personal preference. My parents would prefer I not do interracial dating, but they still love me. People are allowed to have preferences without it being bigotry.
 

-Minsc-

Member
Yes-I-am-a-Christian-I-believe-the-bible.jpg


What the fuck is this shit? I've seen it floating around Facebook a bunch recently and I don't get it. How can you love and accept your friends if you completely disagree with their lifestyle? How is this not still bigotry? I don't get it.

This whole post has be scratching my head. I'm not even sure what it's trying to say.

I don't understand how someone could label someone's lifestyle as an abomination and still think they aren't judging people. The act of labeling their lifestyle as an abomination is judgmental in itself.

Thank you good sir, you helped identify a contradiction I overlooked in this image.

It should read "Yes, I am judging you." since they clearly are judging people. This does not mean Christians don't have the right to judge. They do have the right to judge, just as others have the right to judge them.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I see nothing wrong with the message in the OP. If I have a son or a daughter, I would prefer they be straight but if they weren't it wouldn't mean I would love them less nor would I treat anyone else less who were the same. Of course that has nothing to do with a religious belief. It's a personal preference. My parents would prefer I not do interracial dating, but they still love me. People are allowed to have preferences without it being bigotry.

If your "preference" is against race-mixing that's bigotry. Seems to me the same logic should apply to a "preference" against gay-mixing.
 

PulseONE

Member
I'm not saying maybe God has something to offer. I'm saying God said that he has something to offer that IS better. So no, I think God has a good life here on earth for us, and a good life after our life here on earth.

Prove it to me. You can't make claims like that without evidence.
 

Arkeband

Banned
I see nothing wrong with the message in the OP. If I have a son or a daughter, I would prefer they be straight but if they weren't it wouldn't mean I would love them less nor would I treat anyone else less who were the same. Of course that has nothing to do with a religious belief. It's a personal preference. My parents would prefer I not do interracial dating, but they still love me. People are allowed to have preferences without it being bigotry.

Uh... what, are other races Muggles?

If I've learned anything in life it's that mixed races power levels are way higher. We'll ignore Gohan's adulthood, it was a mistake and nothing but trash.
 
And that's a positive, theoretical opinion on the Bible. The problem is taking the words of the Bible as fact when it simply is not. If I can attach a religion to Aesop's fables and get enough people to start believing it as truth, then I have the foundation of a religion.

The problem today is that many Christians view the content of the Bible as fact. I'm not talking about the crucifixion or the idea that Jesus was an actual person, because he was. However, the claim that he was the King of the Jews and the incarnation of God is a fallacy. Before and during his life, there were 3 other men to step forward as King of the Jews, and all were executed because of that. The Bible rewrites a man's life to represent more than it actually was.

We have this figurehead who was a proponent of a budding religion and his death sparked the expansion of Christianity. However, the works of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, are simply myths that are misinterpreted and used as fact to support draconian morals and "laws" of right and wrong.

Hm. Most of the points you make I agree with. Although, your claim that other men stepped forward as "king of the Jews" is pretty well known and not really anything ground breaking in terms of undermining Christian perspectives. That's a pretty commonly understood reality in scholarly circles.

I think you are making some fairly broad and sweeping statements about the Old Testament being "simply myths that are misinterpreted and used as fact." But that's beyond the scope of this thread.

I don't disagree with some of the points you make. But you are presenting a fairly watered down perspective that is far from an accurate understanding of Biblical scholarship. It's definitely in the range of Bart Ehrman's critiques, which are interesting, but fairly myopic sometimes.
 
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