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[E-phonk]

I would like to know this as well but I assume that information isn't available

One of the doctors involved (Lieve Thienpont) actually wrote a book, but it's in dutch. It's called "libera me" and is about psychological patiens and euthanasia.
http://www.witsand.be/boekvoorstelling-libera-me.html

She's part of an ethical commission of psychiatrists and doctors who are dealing with this subject on a daily basis (she was also mentioned in this interview).

BTW:
* In 2010-2011 there were 2086 requests for euthanasia in Belgium. 194 (9%) were for non-terminal patients and 58 patiënten (3%) were because of neuro psychological suffering (depression etc).

 

[Blue Ninja]

I'm torn. On the one hand, I think it's a pretty bad solution for a pretty bad problem. Treatment is always the better option.

But if she's determined to commit suicide, I'd rather her do it this way than to jump in front of a train or do something else that might potentially harm others. Tying her to her bed to make sure she can't harm herself would be less humane than this.

 

[injurai]

I'm pro euthanasia, but this is not how it's handled. Fears of this sort of malpractice is why it remains illegal in many places.

 

[TheSeks]

Indeed, and she is sane of mind.

I don't see an issue with this.

Her life, her choice.

Gotta agree with these. If the doctors think it's the most viable "solution" (for lack of better terms) to her problem. Then who are we to say otherwise? I got not problem with this.

 

[Kuroyume]

Just leave if this is all you can bring to the thread. Euthanasia is a major issue that ought to be discussed, especially over depression, the mental illness that makes people kill themselves.

You say this to me, despite all the other glib comments made before mine which happen to fall in line with your beliefs. That's cute. My comment says it all. It's NONE OF YOUR GODDAMN BUSINESS. And you need to keep your stinking nose out of other people's problems.

 

[HK-47]

I would not make claims like "people can always get better" when discussing mental illness and decisions doctors and patients make together.

You have no say in her medical care. Preventing someone from committing suicide with the consent of a doctor is the most cruel thing imaginable.

It is? How often does this happen that you can say?

 

[Irminsul]

Our knowledge of physical illness is much greater (But not complete, obviously). And currently, mental health treatment uses a hell of a lot more trial and error type solutions. This is very different than trying all main options for terminal cancer and being out of options minus a miracle cure that probably won't be ready for use before you are dead. The fields are so beyond those of mental health that it is a silly comparison.

Why? That same situation could happen with mental illnesses too. Sure, you may not know as much about them, but you can hardly put that against the patient, can you? You tried everything that you can in both cases.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Even if you disapprove of suicide completely, the availability of state-assisted euthanasia should not be arguable. People are remarkably good at killing themselves poorly, be it through a misplaced shot that leaves them writhing as they slowly bleed to death, or overdosing on drugs that can cause severe brain haemorrhage. If they are truly determined to kill themselves, there is little that anyone can do about it, as evidenced by case upon case upon case of suicide in a wide range of different countries with a wide range of stances on suicide and euthanasia. The least we owe them is to make their passing graceful and dignified.

 

[Nozem]

I wonder how long it took "doctors" to comfortably ignore the fact that her death wish is the treatable depression talking ...

Yeah, "doctors", because they totally can't be real doctors amirite?

Jesus Christ.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I wonder how long it took "doctors" to comfortably ignore the fact that her death wish is the treatable depression talking ...

How do you know her diagnosis better than herself and 3 doctors?

 

[Transhuman]

Good grief, I had suicidal toughts since I was nine and even had ideas like getting euthanasia at 24 but my life got around in the last 3 years and now I can't think of suicide anymore at all.

I mean, just because it's not an option for you doesn't mean it's not an option for anybody. And the flip-side of this situation is someone who was depressed and who would have continued to be depressed if not for the fact they killed themselves. And it's not like we can ask "If anyone reading this thread has killed themselves and would like to share their thoughts on the issue, go ahead".

 

[Condom]

What if it... is hopeless?

I know I would pick death if I had to chose between authanasia and "ehm, maybe things will eventually get better."

There's a point where doctors can't help you anymore when it comes to mental illness.

So everybody with a personality disorder should be able to get an assisted death? Since those can't be treated in many circumstances.

I chose the 'ehm' option and am still alive, chugging along because statistically, it will get better. Someone without an analytic mind could be easily tricked to death by his own psyche.

 

[Dawg]

I'm torn. On the one hand, I think it's a pretty bad solution for a pretty bad problem. Treatment is always the better option.

But if she's determined to commit suicide, I'd rather her do it this way than to jump in front of a train or do something else that might potentially harm others. Tying her to her bed to make sure she can't harm herself would be less humane than this.

I don't think this feels like suicide to her.

To her, this is the best solution. It is her final treatment. Reading the story, this is someone who has tried almost every single treatment out there. This is her final option. And the doctors seem to agree.

I feel like people have trouble believing you can't fix everything. Sometimes, there simply isn't an easy way out. People always like to believe in treatment. They don't want to talk about the harsh reality. That maybe... just maybe... there is no solution. People don't like to talk about this because it is a very dark subject. It's easy to tell someone to never give up. It's easy to tell someone they should just try different treatment. And it's easy to tell someone that things will get better.

It's a lot more difficult to tell someone euthanasia might be the final option. But that doesn't make it wrong.

 

[Social]

Her life, her choice.

exactly

 

[Beefy]

This is just a permanent solution to a temporary problem

Not all people with a mental illness can be helped.

 

[Dawg]

So everybody with a personality disorder should be able to get an assisted death? Since those can't be treated in many circumstances.

I chose the 'ehm' option and am still alive, chugging along because statistically, it will get better. Someone without an analytic mind could be easily tricked to death by his own psyche.

Never said everybody should do this.

Every situation is different.

If you chose the "ehm" option, you clearly wanted to live. She doesn't. And she's been like that for years.

Every human is different.

 

[Irminsul]

Lastly, I wouldn't compare this to a terminal disease, there are cases of depression being treated so it's not a death sentence.

There are cases of cancer being treated, so it's not a death sentence.

Eh, no, sorry. That doesn't work.

Rounding all of this out, I believe it's a duty of society to find a way to help out its citizens as much as possible and to fight to preserve their life. This case really just seems like the antithesis of my beliefs which is perhaps why I come across as so impassioned, but again I understand where others are coming from, I just think the line that's being drawn is too short.

Well that sounds more like you're against euthanasia in general. At which point that should probably be another discussion.

 

[Fury451]

Nah. You might have been able to, but the fact she's had these thoughts all her life.

At the end of the day everybody should have the right to die, for whatever reason however stupid it is.

Not to be rude, but do you know how depression and suicidial ideation works? It's not like a switch where you're suddenly "cured" for life. You learn to cope and carry on, and enjoy things, but you still battle it. Sounds dismissive the way you've phrased it; some how she's "incurable" at 24 and should be allowed to die, when others in their 50s or 60s have lived good lives despite these thoughts.

State or government sanctioned suicide is not good. This sets an atrocious precedent, regardless of whether you support right to die causes.

 

[Blue Ninja]

I don't think this feels like suicide to her.

To her, this is the best solution. It is her final treatment. Reading the story, this is someone who has tried almost every single treatment out there. This is her final option. And the doctors seem to agree.

I feel like people have trouble believing you can't fix everything. Sometimes, there simply isn't an easy way out. People always like to believe in treatment. They don't want to talk about the harsh reality. That maybe... just maybe... there is no solution. People don't like to talk about this because it is a very dark subject. It's easy to tell someone to never give up. It's easy to tell someone they should just try different treatment. And it's easy to tell someone that things will get better.

It's a lot more difficult to tell someone euthanasia might be the final option. But that doesn't make it wrong.

She may not think it is, but she's still effectively choosing to end her life. Semantics, I guess.

You're right, though. It's a very difficult subject, and there simply is no right choice for it. At least this way, she can end it peacefully, on her own terms.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

This is just a permanent solution to a temporary problem

How long it temporary?

 

[Condom]

Never said everybody should do this.

Every situation is different.

If you chose the "ehm" option, you clearly wanted to live. She doesn't. And she's been like that for years.

Every human is different.

Everyone who is suicidal wants to live, believe me. Just not this life. It's a big difference.

Death is relief, death is peace but only compared to the current life not to the possible life of the victim.

Still maybe I'm wrong. Can only speak from personal experience and what I see/hear around me. More research is needed.

 

[Air]

Yes but you aren't asking her, if you had your way you'd be telling her, forcing her.

Strongly encourage is what I would use to describe. But what would you expect the mind of a manically depressed person to say? At what point do you draw the line between her ability to dictate her quality of being and what's in her best interest?

What if it... is hopeless?

I know I would pick death if I had to chose between authanasia and "ehm, maybe things will eventually get better."

There's a point where doctors can't help you anymore when it comes to mental illness.

I don't think the feeling of hopelessness is quantifiably the same as being in a hopeless position.

Depression doesn't mean someone is of an unsound mind.

If I was in constant emotional pain, with no sign of possible resolution, i'd be surprised if I didn't consider suicide.

Certainly, we don't ask terminally physically ill patients to get over it, or tell them they should hold out in the hope that there's a cure.

I don't see why we'd set a different standard for those with a mental issue.

Unless you're just arguing against euthanasia in general, in which case, I won't even bother engaging further (it's another discussion, for another thread).

I'm not against Euthanaisia in terminally ill patients. But I wrote in another post that this isn't a terminal disease. A better comparison would be with something like phantom limb pain or for a more physical comparison, Aids/hiv. I think there needs to be a different and higher standard for mental illnesses due to the complexity of the brain. I think treating it like you would a kidney probably isn't the best thing to do, and in situations like this, I would imagine taking a reserved approach is more ideal than what transpired in the article.

Edit:

There are cases of cancer being treated, so it's not a death sentence.

Eh, no, sorry. That doesn't work.



Well that sounds more like you're against euthanasia in general. At which point that should probably be another discussion.

I don't mind euthanasia for the terminally ill. Not all cancers can be treated though. We have a better idea of what cancer can do to your body than depression.

 

[Dawg]

She may not think it is, but she's still effectively choosing to end her life. Semantics, I guess.

You're right, though. It's a very difficult subject, and there simply is no right choice for it. At least this way, she can end it peacefully, on her own terms.

You're right about it being a matter of semantics. I guess, in this case, suicide juist feels a bit... awful... considering most people just think of "he/she just wanted to die" where, in this case, there is a very specific reason and it's done in a much better way.

I've been working at our national railway company for a while now... and, well... there's a lot of people... A LOT OF PEOPLE... who end up chosing a much darker route

 

[Frog-fu]

How long it temporary?

If defined by your logic, as long as the family is willing to put up with it, apparently.

 

[gai_shain]

Not to be rude, but do you know how depression and suicidial ideation works? It's not like a switch where you're suddenly "cured" for life. You learn to cope and carry on, and enjoy things, but you still battle it. Sounds dismissive the way you've phrased it; some how she's "incurable" at 24 and should be allowed to die, when others in their 50s or 60s have lived good lives despite these thoughts.

State or government sanctioned suicide is not good. This sets an atrocious precedent, regardless of whether you support right to die causes.

why should it set a precedent now when this was possible for quite some time now in belgium?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Strongly encourage is what I would use to describe. But what would you expect the mind of a manically depressed person to say? At what point do you draw the line between her ability to dictate her quality of being and what's in her best interest?

When 3 doctors agree and 1.5 years go by.

After that you deny her, you aren't strongly encouraging you're forcing.

What's your solution lock her up and pray she gets better someday?

 

[Blue Ninja]

You're right about it being a matter of semantics. I guess, in this case, suicide juist feels a bit... awful... considering most people just think of "he/she just wanted to die" where, in this case, there is a very specific reason and it's done in a much better way.

I've been working at our national railway company for a while now... and, well... there's a lot of people... A LOT OF PEOPLE... who end up chosing a much darker route

Yeah, I can imagine. I'd rather her be able to go like this than to choose that route.

It's just a horrible situation, all round. There are no right solutions for this.

 

[Dawg]

I don't think the feeling of hopelessness is quantifiably the same as being in a hopeless position.

Who decided the difference, though? I understand where you're coming from... but this is like comparing someone saying "it's very hot" and it actually being very hot. If it's 30 degrees outside, one person will say it is way too hot, while the next person might say it's fine. Who's right? Who's wrong?

 

[HK-47]

I'm wondering. When does chronic become "terminal" with regards to a mental illness (or any illness. Has anyone been euthanaized for chronic pain)? And does anyone know how often people beat an illness thats been labeled terminal?

 

[norinrad]

Thats another way of doing things legally. I want to go but cannot do it without an official approval or certificate.

I do not support this but if the young woman thinks this is the ultimate solution to her problems than that is very tragic indeed.

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

Sometimes life is simply not worth living, people should be entitled the chance to end their suffering no matter what the circumstances.

 

[MikeDip]

Why? That same situation could happen with mental illnesses too. Sure, you may not know as much about them, but you can hardly put that against the patient, can you? You tried everything that you can in both cases.

The medicine, research, and current level of care just isn't there to make it comparable. Plus the individualistic nature and approach mental health needs. It's not the same as treating a tumor. There currently isn't a cure, there are coping mechanisms. There are ways to try and reduce symptoms. Meds, therapy, CBT, ECT, etc. And in each of these a countless amount of options. SSRI? SNRI? MAO? Which ones? Which therapist? Which psychologist? Hospitalization? Hell even in there there's a large variety. It goes on and on. It's also a pretty unique field in which finding the cause of the problem can possibly be a solution, by using talk therapy or a variety of other methods.

There is so much trial and error involved. At this stage of the field, I think including euthanasia as a medical option is a bad idea.

 

[Air]

When 3 doctors agree and 1.5 years go by.

After that you deny her, you aren't strongly encouraging you're forcing.

What's your solution lock her up and pray she gets better someday?

I would encourage her to continue seeking medical treatments. I'd rather keep searching until I found something to work with than to lay the problem to rest. Introduce her to other experimental treatments and so on. Leave no stone unturned so to say.

Who decided the difference, though? I understand where you're coming from... but this is like comparing someone saying "it's very hot" and it actually being very hot. If it's 30 degrees outside, one person will say it is way too hot, while the next person might say it's fine. Who's right? Who's wrong?

You're right that it's a matter of perspective. I don't disagree with that, but I do think perspectives can change.

 

[daniels]

Gotta agree with these. If the doctors think it's the most viable "solution" (for lack of better terms) to her problem. Then who are we to say otherwise? I got not problem with this.

Someone could argue that it was her treatable depressions choice not really hers, if she gets treatment and is cured i don't think she would still wanted to die and that is the whole problem with this assisted suicide for non terminal and treatable sickness..

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

Someone could argue that it was her treatable depressions choice not really hers, if she gets treatment and is cured i don't think she would still wanted to die and that is the whole problem with this assisted suicide for non terminal and treatable sickness..

There is no "Cure." Often times the treatment just prolongs a life of suffering.

 

[Irminsul]

But I wrote in another post that this isn't a terminal disease. A better comparison would be with something like phantom limb pain or for a more physical comparison, Aids/hiv.

I'd argue that's a bit of a semantic issue. Yes, you won't literally die from the illness alone, which is possible with physical ones, but figuratively I'd argue it's pretty much possible. If you strive to die like this woman does despite everything known to modern science has been tried, maybe that should be enough. Also…

I don't mind euthanasia for the terminally ill. Not all cancers can be treated though. We have a better idea of what cancer can do to your body than depression.

Like I said to another poster, I don't think you should hold a lack of knowledge against the patient. Yeah, there's always hope, but if you've done everything, that's the same hoping for a miracle as it is with cancer patients. With the difference that yes, she won't die directly from the illness (but can die very much from "indirect" symptoms of the illness) and the margin of error is larger due to mental illnesses being much less known than physical ones.

But essentially, you can't do anything for her except hoping that it will get better, and that isn't very much in my opinion.

 

[IISANDERII]

Because they could live the rest of their lives, which could be another 25-30 years or more with happiness.

We endure things we don't like all the time. It doesn't mean the best thing to do is cave when things get hard.

It's extremely disingenuous to characterize this as "hard" and "caving". And it's very far from certain that they'd be happy for any length of time, never mind 25-30yrs!

 

[Principate]

There are cases of cancer being treated, so it's not a death sentence.

Eh, no, sorry. That doesn't work.


.

This is some god awful logic, my brain hurts just reading it. There's are various types of cancer with different survivability rates, different stages of cancer with different survivability rates, that fact you just blankly compared the shows a shocking understanding of the comparison material you and an astounding level of general ignorance.

 

[Irminsul]

This is some god awful logic, my brain hurts just reading it. There's are various types of cancer with different survivability rates, different stages of cancer with different survivability rates, that fact you just blankly compared the shows a shocking understanding of the comparison material you and an astounding level of general ignorance.

So I take it there's just one type of depression? Interesting.

 

[Principate]

So I take it there's just one type of depression? Interesting.

Nah I would take that from what you said considering just how god awful that statement was. That point doesn't even help your argument if you can call it such.

 

[RELAYER]

A sick cure for a sick society.

 

[Ties]

need 2 kno why the doctors concluded this as a no help case b4 i comment

 

[Joni]

A sick cure for a sick society.

A compassionate solution for a terrible problem from a compassionate society. It is no different from giving euthanasia to cancer sufferers without a possibility of cure.

 

[Irminsul]

Nah I would take that from what you said considering just how god awful that statement was. That point doesn't even help your argument if you can call it such.

Now I don't even know anymore what my point was in your opinion.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

If you want to die, go ahead. Its a cowards way out because you shift the burden to those around you.
Edit- unless your in terrible pain from an illness like cancer

 

[Air]

I'd argue that's a bit of a semantic issue. Yes, you won't literally die from the illness alone, which is possible with physical ones, but figuratively I'd argue it's pretty much possible. If you strive to die like this woman does despite everything known to modern science has been tried, maybe that should be enough. Also…


Like I said to another poster, I don't think you should hold a lack of knowledge against the patient. Yeah, there's always hope, but if you've done everything, that's the same hoping for a miracle as it is with cancer patients. With the difference that yes, she won't die directly from the illness (but can die very much from "indirect" symptoms of the illness) and the margin of error is larger due to mental illnesses being much less known than physical ones.

But essentially, you can't do anything for her except hoping that it will get better, and that isn't very much in my opinion.

Eh, I disagree with just hoping it will get better. I don't think it wise to assume the doctors she visited has tried every possible avenue to get her to a better place. Also, I wouldn't call it semantics, there is a world of a difference of what a terminal disease can do to you versus mental states. If that's a semantic issue, than everything might as well be.

It's extremely disingenuous to characterize this as "hard" and "caving". And it's very far from certain that they'd be happy for any length of time, never mind 25-30yrs!

You're right, that there's no accounting for how long they would be happy. I'm not saying they'd be ecstatic for everyday for the next 30 years, what I'm saying is that the activity responsible for that depression will subside and they'd start off from a more neutral grounding instead of a negative one. Also, I think the words I used were apt. Depression is a burden and it is a hard one to carry. The depression she faced I assume would feel much worse, but it is a hard burden to carry nontheless. She succumbed to that burden did she not?

 

[Lamel]

Her life, her choice.

But is she even in the right state of mind to make such a choice?

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

If you want to die, go ahead. Its a cowards way out because you shift the burden to those around you.

What a shitty selfish attitude.

 

[MikeDip]

If you want to die, go ahead. Its a cowards way out because you shift the burden to those around you.

That is a terrible mentality and not fair to the person suffering.

 

[superseohyun]

If you want to die, go ahead. Its a cowards way out because you shift the burden to those around you.

some times its a burden reliever for you and all those around you.