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[Clear]

Why would you want to introduce an evasion like stat into combat system of a game like this? Literally all it does is detract from 'skill of the player' type gameplay to the advantage of 'higher numbers means you're more likely to win' type gameplay.

To accommodate players with slower reflexes?

To allow them to play mobility-based classes and discourage over-reliance on passive approaches like heavy tank builds or sniping/leashing.

The key to the Souls' games appeal for me is that they offer a broad set of tools to overcome the challenges it throws your way. Its much more a game about smarts and tactical thinking than twitch reflexes.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So its ok to use souls to mitigate damage through armour with high defensive stats, but not to spend the same currency on widening your timing window to evade?

What about using defensive magics as opposed to offensive ones? Is that against the spirit of the game too?

You appear to thinking in a really binary way about how the game is intended to be played.

Yeah. Unless you have the exact same playing style that I do, and you spend your souls on the exact same things that I do, you're a clueless scrub who misses the point of the Souls games. Or something.

Playing a mage? Pffft, Souls are all about its awesome melee combat. How dare you enjoy magic.
Playing an archer? Pffft, Souls are all about its awesome melee combat. How dare you enjoy sniping and kiting.
Playing a greatshield tank? Pfft, Souls are all about super-precise dodging and timing. How dare you enjoy tanking and playing defensively.
Spending your souls to level up? Way to miss the point, scrub. Gid gud, don't rely on more HP, more damage, more stamina, more evasion, more magic power, those are crutches for no-skill scrubs.
Spending your souls to upgrade your weapon or armour? That's also a crutch. Real Souls players just gid gud, hitting 20 damage at the time, not 200.
Spending your souls on lifegems? Why, didn't you get the memo? You're not supposed to get hit, ever. Taking damage and healing it, pffft. Missing the point so bad.

My point is that as a Hexer you have a totally viable alternative until you get hexes. Magic is as a powerful tool as hexes and totally fits with it's playstyle.

There's no alternative for i-frames. To make it equal to the hexer comparisson it would be if you started with no magic at all, relegating you to the knife...

Haha. No. The default dodge is not equivalent to a dagger on a spell-less mage. The default dodge is not the best but it's perfectly serviceable for the early game. Jesus....

This discussion is so pointless at this point, ADP is out from future games, miyazaki thinks its a trash idea, laughs everytime anyone asks about it.
Just read his interviews/design works if you want to understand his vision for dark souls, he constantly promoted the concept of you beating dark souls using skill, not by grinding souls and putting on full havels.

So why are there souls and Havel armours in the game? Or can it be, like, using skill and tactics and observation and... nah, can't be. That's why Miyazaki made a full-blown action game like Devil May Cry. It is known.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Neiteio]

Oookay...so you agree cool.

I think she's saying she'd prefer to streamline the number of stats you juggle by including adaptability in endurance (as previous games did, iirc). She's not saying that adaptability being its own stat somehow breaks the game or upsets the balance.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You could flip that and say i-frames are a safety net. It just depends on how you play as a melee.

i-frames is part of the combat mechanics and part of the melee way of fighting. You CAN'T play as a no-shield melee without i-frames.

That's like saying in a fighting game i-frames is just a safety net, no, it's part of it's core mechanics...

Haha. No. The default dodge is not equivalent to a dagger on a spell-less mage. The default dodge is not the best but it's perfectly serviceable for the early game. Jesus....

Serviciable is an acronym of totally useless in this case, look at the video I posted and tell me that's "serviciable".

If you want is equal at having a shitty spell that does 20 damage while the knife does 30, until you invest 20 points into INT.

 

[QuantumZebra]

That quote makes it sound so badass


"I CAN DO BOTH OF THEM"

Then he shoved the interviewer down and flew away

lmao

 

[Gbraga]

Why can't we all have fun together, guys?

By the way, happy birthday, Morrigan.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I think she's saying she'd prefer to streamline the number of stats you juggle by including adaptability in endurance (as previous games did, iirc). She's not saying that adaptability being its own stat somehow breaks the game or upsets the balance.

Yeah, or that if the game were to still include an agility stat, it'd actually affect dodging animations in a visible way, instead of tying it to something invisible and hard to perceive such as i-frames.

i-frames is part of the combat mechanics and part of the melee way of fighting. You CAN'T play as a no-shield melee without i-frames.

That's like saying in a fighting game i-frames is just a safety net, no, it's part of it's core mechanics...

The default dodge does have iframes, just fewer. It's really not game-breaking.

By the way, happy birthday, Morrigan.

Oh thanks! Speaking of which, guess what I got as a present?

Dark Souls II: Scholar of the First Sin for the PS4.

Neiteio, or anyone else who wants to do a coop run some time, feel free to PM me your PSN and stuff.

 

[Neiteio]

i-frames is part of the combat mechanics and part of the melee way of fighting. You CAN'T play as a no-shield melee without i-frames.

That's like saying in a fighting game i-frames is just a safety net, no, it's part of it's core mechanics...

I had no trouble playing as a no-shield melee with low adaptability for the first few areas/bosses. And at that point I had more than enough souls to invest in Adaptability. If I spent all of those souls on something else, like HP or Strength, it would've trivialized the game's difficulty, methinks. So again, not seeing how it's prohibitive for melees.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Yeah, or that if the game were to still include an agility stat, it'd actually affect dodging animations in a visible way, instead of tying it to something invisible and hard to perceive such as i-frames.


The default dodge does have iframes, just fewer. It's really not game-breaking.

Game breaking no, frustrating and adding an useless layer of artificial difficulty? Totally yes.

 

[Neiteio]

Game breaking no, frustrating and adding an useless layer of artificial difficulty? Totally yes.

Some approaches will be inherently more difficult based on your strategy and character build, most notably in the early game. This has been true of every Souls game ever. I personally enjoy running pantless through the game smacking everyone with a club. Do I get killed when I'm cavalier? You bet! But I learn and make progress.

 

[DoubleTake]

I think she's saying she'd prefer to streamline the number of stats you juggle by including adaptability in endurance (as previous games did, iirc). She's not saying that adaptability being its own stat somehow breaks the game or upsets the balance.

If thats case never did I say Adaptability breaks the game and she completely missed the point of my post. You hit the nail on the head earlier when you said I was attempting to draw a distinction between passive stats, the RPG part of souls games(str,HP), and active mechanics like rolling, or how quickly you put up your shield or how quickly you drink estus. Tying a stat to those active actions doesnt work very well imo.

Its like starting off the game with the DS1 "not able to wield this weapon" swing while still doing normal damage and having to level up a stat that will gradually make your weapon swing faster. Yes it makes sense on the RPG side of things but it completely dulls the Action portion.

 

[Redrop]

Game breaking no, frustrating and adding an useless layer of artificial difficulty? Totally yes.

Oh god, it's back...

 

[Kieli]

I had no trouble playing as a no-shield melee with low adaptability for the first few areas/bosses. And at that point I had more than enough souls to invest in Adaptability. If I spent all of those souls on something else, like HP or Strength, it would've trivialized the game's difficulty, methinks. So again, not seeing how it's prohibitive for melees.

With one less mandatory stat to spend, I'm sure they would have made the others more expensive or reduced soul gains.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If thats case never did I say Adaptability breaks the game and she completely missed the point of my post. You hit the nail on the head earlier when you said I was attempting to draw a distinction between passive stats, the RPG part of souls games(str,HP), and active mechanics like rolling, or how quickly you put up your shield or how quickly you drink estus. Tying a stat to those active actions doesnt work very well imo.

Its like starting off the game with the DS1 "not able to wield this weapon" while still doing normal damage and having to level up a stat that will gradually make your weapon swing faster. Yes it makes sense on the RPG side of things but it completely dulls the Action portion.

Did you know that Dark Souls 1 made spellcasting faster the higher your dex was? That's right, a stat affected an active mechanical action. And you couldn't even swing a weapon without meeting the strength requirement, your character swung it suuuuper slow. The horror.

 

[Neiteio]

With one less mandatory stat to spend, I'm sure they would have made the others more expensive or reduced soul gains.

That's possible. But the point is they priced things so that you can afford to level up with a bit more emphasis on Adaptability. It's balanced, in other words, to follow a reasonable difficulty curve.

If thats case never did I say Adaptability breaks the game and she completely missed the point of my post. You hit the nail on the head earlier when you said I was attempting to draw a distinction between passive stats, the RPG part of souls games(str,HP), and active mechanics like rolling, or how quickly you put up your shield or how quickly you drink estus. Tying a stat to those active actions doesnt work very well imo.

Its like starting off the game with the DS1 "not able to wield this weapon" while still doing normal damage and having to level up a stat that will gradually make your weapon swing faster. Yes it makes sense on the RPG side of things but it completely dulls the Action portion.

Ah, I understand.

Like I said, a lot of it comes down to preference. As much as I defend Adaptability — and I really do believe it works fine in the context of DS2, challenging though it may be — at the same time I won't miss it in DS3.

 

[I-hate-u]

Where is BB2 tho?

 

[Clear]

Game breaking no, frustrating and adding an useless layer of artificial difficulty? Totally yes.

How is making life harder for yourself by not putting points in ADP more artificial than making life harder for yourself by not putting points into STR or any other "outward facing" attribute?

 

[Fancy Clown]

I hope they don't come out around the same time...I don't want to have to choose which one I play first.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

How is making life harder for yourself by not putting points in ADP more artificial than making life harder for yourself by not putting points into STR or any other "outward facing" attribute?

Because not putting points into ADP can create frame traps, which are impossible to avoid.
This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Some approaches will be inherently more difficult based on your strategy and character build, most notably in the early game. This has been true of every Souls game ever. I personally enjoy running pantless through the game smacking everyone with a club. Do I get killed when I'm cavalier? You bet! But I learn and make progress.

Those aproaches involves tradeoff, strenghts and weaknesses. You choice a mage? cool, now you have a long range spell, but low HP. You choice an armored dude? Cool, you have higher defense and a shield, but your movement is slower and you have an slower roll.

There's no tradeoff involving the low ADP on a melee, there's not strenght related to not having i-frames. Having low i-frames just literally suck, since there's no replacement, no benefit of not having i-frames except that imaginary feeling of getting better.

Is a bad mechanic that is gone for good reason.

 

[Neiteio]

I hope they don't come out around the same time...I don't want to have to choose which one I play first.

Didn't SotFS and BB release one month after the other? If so, maybe we'll see similar timing here. It'd be amazing if BB DLC somehow released this year, though. It would certainly work well for Sony — it'd give them a holiday "title" and reignite the case for BB as GOTY 2015.

 

[Femmeworth]

He's the anti-Suda 51 of video game CEOs if he isn't overstating things.

Edit: Got it wrong, Miyazaki is the president.

 

[Neiteio]

Those aproaches involves tradeoff, strenghts and weaknesses. You choice a mage? cool, now you have a long range spell, but low HP. You choice an armored dude? Cool, you have higher defense and a shield, but your movement is slower and you have an slower roll.

There's no tradeoff involving the low ADP on a melee, there's not strenght related to not having i-frames. Having low i-frames just literally suck, since there's no replacement, no benefit of not having i-frames except that imaginary feeling of getting better.

Is a bad mechanic that is gone for good reason.

Again, I don't see it as "bad," since the early game is perfectly doable with low ADP, and after that you're in a strong position to improve ADP. So in the meantime I see it simply as "different," with its own unique challenges and strategies.

 

[DoubleTake]

Did you know that Dark Souls 1 made spellcasting faster the higher your dex was? That's right, a stat affected an active mechanical action. And you couldn't even swing a weapon without meeting the strength requirement, your character swung it suuuuper slow. The horror.

And I would say that isnt a good thing either. My point still stands. There should be constants on the action side of things. And I realize you cant swing a weapon if you dont have the requirements, I was giving an illustration. Sorry if my wording confused you.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Again, I don't see it as "bad," since the early game is perfectly doable with low ADP, and after that you're in a strong position to improve ADP. So in the meantime I see it simply as "different," with its own unique challenges and strategies.

I didn't say is not doable, is annoying and artificially harder, if you play like a melee like it should be played.

I'm pretty sure DMC is doable without i-frames on it's dodge mechanic, would many would agree is not very fun or just frustrating. Specially since i-frames is part of it's core combat mechanics.

 

[Neiteio]

DS2 seems to follow the logic that everything should carry with it a sense of earned satisfaction. That includes the expansion of i-frames through Adaptability, of course, but it also extends to the estus flask, which starts with one charge and must be upgraded, and the diminishing max HP with each death and finite number of human effigies, which encourages you to see how much progress you can make before using an effigy. Not saying it's for the best or the worst, but I think it's interesting to the degree to which they've taken this concept.

 

[superseohyun]

In my playthrough so far, I haven't encountered any enemies that are so bad they'd frame-trap me at low agility. Short of being mobbed in a corner, which would kill you just as quickly in Bloodborne.


And you do learn from your mistakes. And execute strategies better next time. Again, I've taken a no armor/no shield approach to bosses and much of the PvE. Even with limited agility, I found it perfectly possible to identify openings and safely capitalize on them, all through skill and execution.

It kind of makes every early battle feel like the Defiled Watchdog in Bloodborne, where you really have to pick your shots and time them well.

you will meet enemy with huge attack area and range that will be difficult to fight without a shield if you dont have enough I-frames.

 

[Neiteio]

I didn't say is not doable, is annoying and artificially harder, if you play like a melee like it should be played.

I'm pretty sure DMC is doable without i-frames on it's dodge mechanic, would many would agree is not very fun or just frustrating. Specially since i-frames is part of it's core combat mechanics.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think "the way melee should be played" varies depending on your stats, just like "the way tanks should be played" and "the way spellcasters should be played" would change in accordance with their respective stats. For melee this means a more cautious bait-and-punish approach in the early game and then the "stylish character action" of rolling through every incoming attack once you've leveled Adaptability. Just as I wouldn't expect my tank style to tank everything from the onset, etc, neither would I expect my melee style to be a nimble ninja from the onset. It's true that may be easier in the other games, and I can understand preferring it. But like I said, I don't see it as breaking the game in any way.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I don't mean run away, I mean rolling away from attacks, rather than rolling into attacks. And I fight exactly the same with whatever HP I have, basically more HP means I have more room for mistakes (or my HP scales with the increasing damage of foes), it really dosn't change how you play as a melee.

Of course it does. With more HP you would be willing to take more risks. If you're not likely to die from a single hit you would be more willing to dodge instead of blocking, to parry instead of dodging, and so on. In absolutely divine Miyazaki A-team GOAT Bloodborne, the amount of health really changes how you play, because it affects potency of healing items as well. If health was such a non-factor, why would bosses where your health is cut in half be considered the most infamously hard of the series?

My point is that as a Hexer you have a totally viable alternative until you get hexes. Magic is as a powerful tool as hexes and totally fits with it's playstyle.

There's no alternative for i-frames. To make it equal to the hexer comparisson it would be if you started with no magic at all, relegating you to the knife..or rather, you have one spell, but to use it you need 20 points invesment until you can use it.

Of course there are alternatives. You can dodge away instead of into attacks. You can bait attacks and attack when the enemy is cooling down. You can use a fucking shield.

Pointing at glaring design mistakes is not shitting on a game, I don't see people saying DkS2 is a bad game.

From this very thread:

To me the clueless ones are the ones that can't see how DS2 completely misses the point, including its director. Honestly I find it astonishing that people can stomach it, let alone try to convince themselves and others that there is no difference in quality and design. It's like a bizarro version of the 30 FPS vs 60 FPS debate, where some people not only can't tell the difference (fair enough) but insist that there is no perceivable difference and people are just imagining it.

Spoiler

And yes, I'm aware of the irony of that simile when DS2 is 60 FPS on PC and PS4 while Bloodborne is 30 FPS; Bloodborne is just that much better even so.

 

[AgentChris]

Miyazaki should hold a lecture that all Japanese video game developers must attend. This man is a beast. Could teach Ueda and Nomura a thing or two about productivity.

 

[Jaeger]

while you're at it, make a metroid game too.

You know, this is most the brilliant thing I've read in this thread yet.

 

[Clear]

Because not putting points into ADP can create frame traps, which are impossible to avoid.
This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

That's not an answer.

If I can kill a monster in less time than you can because I hit harder/faster, I'm less likely to get hit than you are because I'll have fewer incoming strikes to worry about.

Its just two different approaches to enhance survivability, the only thing "artificial" here is deliberately ignoring the benefit of the attribute in order to have a reason to complain about it.

I see no difference between ignoring ADP and the Poise stat on a shield. Neglecting either is a mistake because elevating them can make the difference between life and death.

Bloodborne requires neither because its regain mechanic incentivizes the idea of taking one hit in order to deliver two and defeat the foe. By itself proving that evasion is not the paramount concern you believe it to be in souls' combat.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Dual wielding is such a bullshit mechanic. You need such high strength and agility to power stance that a dual-wield builds are totally gimped at the start of the game.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

Bloodborne requires neither because its regain mechanic incentivizes the idea of taking one hit in order to deliver two and defeat the foe. By itself proving that evasion is not the paramount concern you believe it to be in souls' combat.

Miyazaki wanted the player to be more aggressive for higher reward,if you got hit it tempted you to attack instead of healing and using a consumable.
It in no way rewarded you for taking a hit intentionally.
This is the most backwards dumb ass thing in this thread, bloodborne has no tank armor, no shields, hence its all about evasion.
10/10 try for a valid argument

Dual wielding is such a bullshit mechanic. You need such high strength and agility to power stance that a dual-wield buils is totally gimped at the start of the game.

Was implement very poorly, its been ditched for 3 in favor of bloodborne dual wield style

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Of course it does. With more HP you would be willing to take more risks. If you're not likely to die from a single hit you would be more willing to dodge instead of blocking, to parry instead of dodging, and so on. In absolutely divine Miyazaki A-team GOAT Bloodborne, the amount of health really changes how you play, because it affects potency of healing items as well. If health was such a non-factor, why would bosses where your health is cut in half be considered as the most infamously hard of the series?

Because, as I said, you have less room for mistakes. But with HP; you still aim at evading attacks, you still look for that sweet spot of not getting hit. Is the base of a melee based character, and that dosn't change with more HP.

More HP means that you might try risky movements, but those are still based on the basics of evasion and relying on i-frames.

Of course there are alternatives. You can dodge away instead of into attacks. You can bait for attacks and attack when the enemy is cooling down. You can use a fucking shield.

But why if I don't want too? Isn't the whole point of the [sarcasm]OH SO GREAT DkS2 [/sarcasm], all that built variety?

And dodging away, defeats the whole point of i-frames, you dodge away to certain attacks, but not as a common tactic, that's the whole point of melee, keeping it close...

From this very thread:

I find that most people actually engaged in the discussion, isn't downright saying DkS2 is bad. Of course, there's always some thread shitters here and there.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

And I would say that isnt a good thing either.

Sure, but somehow I doubt we'll spend pages upon pages bashing Dark Souls 1 about that and saying how it misses the point of the core philosophy of the series and everyone who thinks it's not a big deal is clueless and yadda yadda. Because, Miyazaki, maybe.

Of course it does. With more HP you would be willing to take more risks. If you're not likely to die from a single hit you would be more willing to dodge instead of blocking, to parry instead of dodging, and so on. In absolutely divine Miyazaki A-team GOAT Bloodborne, the amount of health really changes how you play, because it affects potency of healing items as well. If health was such a non-factor, why would bosses where your health is cut in half be considered the most infamously hard of the series?

Good point.

Of course there are alternatives. You can dodge away instead of into attacks. You can bait attacks and attack when the enemy is cooling down. You can use a fucking shield.

ohnoyoudidnt xD

Sometimes this thread really is like, "this game doesn't let me play exactly the way I played Dark Souls, therefore it's inferior". Hell, I sorta felt like that in Dark Souls after coming from Demon's Souls, but I quickly got over it.

 

[Clear]

Miyazaki wanted the player to be more aggressive for higher reward,if you got hit it tempted you to attack instead of healing and using a consumable.
It in no way rewarded you for taking a hit intentionally.
This is the most backwards dumb ass thing in this thread, bloodborne has no tank armor, no shields, hence its all about evasion.
10/10 try for a valid argument

Yeah because evading an enemy's strikes makes it die faster!

/facepalm

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Sometimes this thread really is like, "this game doesn't let me play exactly the way I played Dark Souls, therefore it's inferior". Hell, I sorta felt like that in Dark Souls after coming from Demon's Souls, but I quickly got over it.

But you play like Dark Souls after enough ADP, what's the point of low ADP again?

Or rather, what magnificient way of playing with low ADP I miss if I put stats on ADP? You don't roll away as a melee, you defeat the whole purpose of dodging and i-frames which DkS (and DkS2) action combat was built for...

 

[superseohyun]

maybe next time they should create a stats called mental stability. If you dont put points in it, you lost control of your in-game character every 5 mins for 2 sec.

 

[DoubleTake]

Sure, but somehow I doubt we'll spend pages upon pages bashing Dark Souls 1 about that and saying how it misses the point of the core philosophy of the series and everyone who thinks it's not a big deal is clueless and yadda yadda. Because, Miyazaki, maybe.

Because, Dark Souls 1 is the much better game on the whole, maybe.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

But you play like Dark Souls after enough ADP, what's the point of low ADP again?

Neiteio explained it well above. It's about earnes satisfaction. If you do a tank build in any of the games you won't be able to use the highest poise armors and highest stability shields from the start. If you want to build a character around a specific weapon, you may not have sufficient strength to wield it from the start. This is the same thing but applied to dodging. There is a reason why the Bandit starts with such low adaptability. If you want to build a perfectly min-maxed melee character (which you would have to start with the bandit to do) you have to earn it by playing through the start of the game with really low adaptability, just as if you want to play with a min-maxed mage you have to earn it by playing through the start with only weak spells, limited spell charges and only shitty back-up weapons until you get the better stuff along with more spell charges.

 

[storafötter]

I hope the new DLC is super challenging and interesting. Maybe the DLC will be playable at the Paris Game Week? I will be going there in hopes for Gravity Daze being playable and Dark Souls 3.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Neiteio explained it well above. It's about earnes satisfaction. If you do a tank build in any of the games you won't be able to use the highest poise armors and highest stability shields from the start. If you want to build a character around a specific weapon, you may not have sufficient strength to wield it from the start. This is the same thing but applied to dodging. There is a reason why the Bandit starts with such low adaptability. If you want to build a perfectly min-maxed melee character (which you would have to start with the bandit to do) you have to earn it by playing through the start of the game with really low adaptability, just as if you want to play with a min-maxed mage you have to earn it by playing through the start with only weak spells, limited spell charges and only shitty back-up weapons until you get the better stuff along with more spell charges.

Earning satisfaction should come when YOU improve your own skill, not because stats.

The difference, is your starting armor is enough for the start of the game, when you get better armor and higher poise, is because the enemies are stronger. Is the basis of the RPG, you get stronger at the same time your enemies. You play the same way with started armor than with later armor, just better prepared for more stronger foes. Exactly the same with the initial spells and weapons other classes get.

The ADP you get at the start of the game, is not enough if you rely in the way the series played since it's inception. You don't get the satisfaction of getting more ADP, because until you get enough you are walking a path of frustration and artificial difficulty. You don't even play in the same way until you do so, so is even totally pointless...

 

[gunstarhero]

I've beat Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne (including all 10 chalice dungeons). I'm playing DS2: SotFS right now. I'm not seeing any major difference in quality. DS2 is an incredible game. I just defeated Lost Sinner, and I am thoroughly enjoying everything so far.

I'd say areas like Forest of Fallen Giants, No-man's Wharf and Lost Bastille are every bit the equal of the best-designed areas from DS1. And having invested in Adaptability, the mobility feels similar to Bloodborne now. There are so many options available to the player in terms of build variety, customization, quality-of-life features, etc. The enemy encounters are the most challenging I've seen in the series, relative to where they appear. There are so many secrets, and secrets within secrets. The worlds are deeply immersive and richly detailed, with an airy sense of wonder and awe.

I know I'm relatively early in the game, but so far DS2 is superb.

Jeez - this quote makes me want to run out and get DS2 right now.

Bloodborne was the only souls game I've played and I absolutely loved it. Was hesitant on DS2 because of the mixed opinions and my lack of game time these days (took me nearly 4 months to finally finish BB!), but if DS2 is as engrossing as Bloodborne, I may have to bite.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

To accommodate players with slower reflexes?

To allow them to play mobility-based classes and discourage over-reliance on passive approaches like heavy tank builds or sniping/leashing.

The key to the Souls' games appeal for me is that they offer a broad set of tools to overcome the challenges it throws your way. Its much more a game about smarts and tactical thinking than twitch reflexes.

It doesnt do this, it punishes more skilled players.

So making no armor/no shield builds require leveling up a stat, discourages tank builds?

How does leveling up a stat to make it possible to dodge, make you feel smart?

You never seem to have any argument

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Earning satisfaction should come when YOU improve your own skill, not because stats.

The difference, is your starting armor is enough for the start of the game, when you get better armor and higher poise, is because the enemies are stronger. Is the basis of the RPG, you get stronger at the same time your enemies. You play the same way with started armor than with later armor, just better prepared for more stronger foes. Exactly the same with the initial spells and weapons other classes get.

Because of poise, you may not play the same way with starter armour as later, depending on playstyle. And why did you ignore my other examples: shields, weapons and spells. You definitely don't play the same way with starter shieko,weapons and spells as you do with the late-game ones.

 

[Neiteio]

Jeez - this quote makes me want to run out and get DS2 right now.

Bloodborne was the only souls game I've played and I absolutely loved it. Was hesitant on DS2 because of the mixed opinions and my lack of game time these days (took me nearly 4 months to finally finish BB!), but if DS2 is as engrossing as Bloodborne, I may have to bite.

I highly recommend it! Just know it's much more challenging at the onset, and you'll have to un-learn some tendencies from Bloodborne. You'll also want to level up Adaptability, which in turn increases your Agility. Once your Agility is around 100, you'll be dodging similar to Bloodborne, but until then, you'll be severely limited in your dodging ability. So plan accordingly! Generally speaking, after each boss you'll have enough souls to level up 6-7 times. If you're able to level up seven times, I recommend leveling up Adaptability twice or three times, and then one point each in Vitality (your HP), Endurance (your stamina), Vigor (your equip load — unlike BB, the more armor and weapons you equip, the slower you are, so this allows you to move faster while wearing more), and Strength, Skill, Intelligence or Faith, depending on what kind of weapons you're maining. Also, the transition from BB to DS2 is easier if you go with a melee class like the knight. For boss battles, I recommend removing your armor and shield (although the shield is helpful for some fights). Wearing as little as possible means you'll be able to move more smoothly, even at low Adaptability/Agility.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Because of poise, you may not play the same way with starter armour as later, depending on playstyle. And why did you ignore my other examples: shields, weapons and spells. You definitely don't play the same way with starter shieko,weapons and spells as you do with the late-game ones.

The basics of shield, weapons and spells dosn't change. You may get additional tools, but it plays using the same basics.

Playing with low ADP vs higher ADP totally changes your playstyle down to the basics.

Also the low poise is enough of start of the game, the better poise you get later is for the increased strenght and powerful enemies you get forward, so it's not a radical change. Same applies to weapons, shields and spells.

 

[Audioboxer]

Dis Bloodborne DLC is going to be EPIC.

 

[gunstarhero]

I highly recommend it! Just know it's much more challenging at the onset, and you'll have to un-learn some tendencies from Bloodborne. You'll also want to level up Adaptability, which in turn increases your Agility. Once your Agility is around 100, you'll be dodging similar to Bloodborne, but until then, you'll be severely limited in your dodging ability. So plan accordingly! Generally speaking, after each boss you'll have enough souls to level up 6-7 times. If you're able to level up seven times, I recommend leveling up Adaptability twice or three times, and then one point each in Vitality (your HP), Endurance (your stamina), Vigor (your equip load — unlike BB, the more armor and weapons you equip, the slower you are, so this allows you to move faster while wearing more), and Strength, Skill, Intelligence or Faith, depending on what kind of weapons you're maining. Also, the transition from BB to DS2 is easier if you go with a melee class like the knight. For boss battles, I recommend removing your armor and shield (although the shield is helpful for some fights). Wearing as little as possible means you'll be able to move more smoothly, even at low Adaptability/Agility.

Awesome - you basically answered all my questions before I asked them! XD

Just one thing: I thought blocking with your shield was one of the main differences between BB ans DS? Shouldn't I learn to block instead of modifying the game to play more like BB?

Or is blocking not a big mechanic in DS2?