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[Kieli]

Yes.

See for yourself

Great video. In the top left corner, the user dodges about as well as one can expect. The character is in the middle frames of the roll, yet is still hit and receives damage because their bullshit agility isn't high enough. Now, contrast this with the top right corner. Same user dodges at roughly the same time (revealing the same level of skill), yet receives no damage because they had higher agility. This sort of design is antithetical to how Souls combat should be. When you get hit, it should never be about stats. It should be because of a user-committed error.

It's nonsensical and reveals problems in how they design their collision and hitboxes that are otherwise obscured with DS1 style i-frames.

As if to prove my point, agility/adaptability is nowhere to be found in BB and I suspect nowhere to be found in DSIII.

Edit: One could argue BB obscures their version of encumbrance for some unbeknownst reason.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

They would be a lot better if you could just buy every requirement for them, so you could just rush to the lever and then to the boss. The boss fights and some cool enemies are really nice, but the levels are shite

Personally i like the idea of gathering requirements, its just getting stuff like arcane haze was boring.
A monster hunter style boss gathering would be so awesome, cutting off certain body parts like tails

 

[Neiteio]

Great video. In the top left corner, the user dodges about as well as one can expect. The character is in the middle frames of the roll, yet is still hit and receives damage because their bullshit agility isn't high enough. Now, contrast this with the top right corner. Same user dodges at roughly the same time (revealing the same level of skill), yet receives no damage because they had higher agility. This sort of design is antithetical to how Souls combat should be. When you get hit, it should never be about stats. It should be because of a user-committed error.

It's nonsensical and reveals problems in how they design their collision and hitboxes that are otherwise obscured with DS1 style i-frames.

As if to prove my point, agility/adaptability is nowhere to be found in BB and I suspect nowhere to be found in DSIII.

But it's not purely about stats, no more than wearing armor beyond your equip load in other games would inhibit your rolling speed. Even with low agility, you can still bait and punish attacks, pick your shots, etc.

I got through Last Giant, Pursuer, etc., with no shield and no armor and minimal agility investment. Each of those bosses gave me so many souls that I could level up Adaptability several times, and still have enough leftover to boost Vitality, Endurance, Vigor and Strength. Even if I invested in Adaptability by three levels per boss battle, and spent the leftovers on everything else, it was still more than sufficient to handle the challenges of the next area. And the reward was the feeling of growth as my character became more deft at dodging enemies.

Again, it's a matter of preference. It's not broken design by any means. You can handle everything early on with low agility, and once you get past those early areas, you have more than enough souls to spare some on adaptability. Leveling in this way doesn't compromise your character at all.

 

[Moon_frogger]

Like when in Dark Souls 2, Miyazaki supervised the project?

Meh dark souls 2 is my most played souls game and the dlc areas in particular are some of the most well designed and fun in the entire series. Playing through now with a friend who's new to the series and he's having the time of his life. Not really sure what the problem is.

 

[Kagutaba]

I am loving these Miyazaki interviews, he's really coming into his role as a member of a very small group of video game "auteurs".

And people should lay of the criticism of Tanimura. Dark Souls 2 was an absolute development mess, and Tanimura had to come in late and salvage what he could after the first the director had failed.

 

[Persona7]

I always find it funny when people say the "b-team" ruined DS2 but they have no issue with all the people who worked on DS2 and then moved over to work on Bloodborne.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

And the reward was the feeling of growth as my character became more deft at dodging enemies.

Again, it's a matter of preference. It's not broken design by any means. You can handle everything early on with low agility, and once you get past those early areas, you have more than enough souls to spare some on adaptability. Leveling in this way doesn't compromise your character at all.

souls is marketed as a challenging but fair game, you get better the more you play is the concept.
here you aren't getting better, your character is. That is bad design for this series.

 

[Neiteio]

souls is marketed as a challenging but fair game, you get better the more you play is the concept.
here you aren't getting better, your character is. That is bad design for this series.

But you are getting better. If you're surviving fights with low agility, that means you're learning your enemy's moves, and you're picking your shots, and you're learning to bait and punish attacks, and you're using the environment to your advantage, and you're making diligent use of limited resources, all under the constraints of more vulnerable dodging.

You learn to survive this way and make progress with execution and awareness, until you have the resources (souls) to improve adaptability. Again, it's no different from learning the game well enough to make progress and level up any other stat.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

His swag is off the charts

 

[RiccochetJ]

souls is marketed as a challenging but fair game, you get better the more you play is the concept.
here you aren't getting better, your character is. That is bad design for this series.

I never looked at it from that perspective before, but what you just said makes complete sense to me now.

 

[Clear]

This sort of design is antithetical to how Souls combat should be. When you get hit, it should never be about stats.

In your opinion.

Its completely legitimate imho, and actually an intelligent way to integrate an RPG-type "evasion" attribute into the combat system.

Either way, it certainly didn't make SL1 runs impossible so its viability is proven.

 

[Zombine]

What happens if he accidentally ships Dark Souls 3 as the Bloodborn DLC?

 

[Neiteio]

I never looked at it from that perspective before, but what you just said makes complete sense to me now.

But you -are- getting better. It's not just your character. You have to learn skills and hone skills to survive with low adaptability. When you reach the point you're able to upgrade Adaptability, you've earned it through improving your skills. Skills like picking your shots, baiting and punishing attacks, spatial awareness, using the environment to your advantage, managing your resources, etc.

Adaptability is the same as any other stat. You could say that improving your health is "your character getting better, not the player," but it still wouldn't be true, since you have to skillfully achieve that point in the first place. That's why I think it's unfair to knock Adaptability on these grounds.

 

[DoubleTake]

But you are getting better. If you're surviving fights with low agility, that means you're learning your enemy's moves, and you're picking your shots, and you're learning to bait and punish attacks, and you're using the environment to your advantage, and you're making diligent use of limited resources, all under the constraints of more vulnerable dodging.

You learn to survive this way and make progress with execution and awareness, until you have the resources (souls) to improve adaptability. Again, it's no different from learning the game well enough to make progress and level up any other stat.

Still the thing is youre doing this because of a stat...not because the game is organically through its gameplay teaching you these things. It is very bad design.

 

[Clear]

This sort of design is antithetical to how Souls combat should be. When you get hit, it should never be about stats.

In your opinion.

Its completely legitimate imho, and actually an intelligent way to integrate an RPG-type "evasion" attribute into the combat system.

Either way, it certainly didn't make SL1 runs impossible so its viability is proven.

I never looked at it from that perspective before, but what you just said makes complete sense to me now.

Its nonsensical. Improving your character by spending the souls you harvest on various performance modifying attributes is at the core of the game.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

To me the clueless ones are the ones that can't see how DS2 completely misses the point, including its director. Honestly I find it astonishing that people can stomach it, let alone try to convince themselves and others that there is no difference in quality and design.

Good gods, what condescending tripe.

I've beat Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne (including all 10 chalice dungeons). I'm playing DS2: SotFS right now. I'm not seeing any major difference in quality. DS2 is an incredible game. I just defeated Lost Sinner, and I am thoroughly enjoying everything so far.

I'd say areas like Forest of Fallen Giants, No-man's Wharf and Lost Bastille are every bit the equal of the best-designed areas from DS1. And having invested in Adaptability, the mobility feels similar to Bloodborne now. There are so many options available to the player in terms of build variety, customization, quality-of-life features, etc. The enemy encounters are the most challenging I've seen in the series, relative to where they appear. There are so many secrets, and secrets within secrets. The worlds are deeply immersive and richly detailed, with an airy sense of wonder and awe.

I know I'm relatively early in the game, but so far DS2 is superb.

No, no, you are wrong, B-team ruined it by making the worst game ever and shat on Miyazaki-sama's legacy, how dare you have fun with this game!

That's not just true. Dual welding class is gimped at the start for that very reason.

So is hexing and pyromancy. In Dark Souls 1 you can cast pyromancy from the start. In 2, you have to wait quite a while before unlocking it. And hexing needs such a high stat investment that you can't start hexing right away.

This is a bad thing, because... reasons.

Look I'm not a fan of ADP at all, I'm glad it'll disappear in DS3, but that's a really stupid argument. "ADP makes no-shielding a bit more difficult at the start"? Who the hell cares, the beginning of the game isn't even that hard.

- NG+ in areas within NG- Ability to refight bosses
Again trviliazed bosses

...What? How can making the boss harder, trivialize it?

I don't think no one ever complained about that. More like spots like fucking Shrine of Amana, for example.

Shrine of Amana is awesome. Come at me breh

Still the thing is youre doing this because of a stat...not because the game is organically through its gameplay teaching you these things. It is very bad design.

souls is marketed as a challenging but fair game, you get better the more you play is the concept.
here you aren't getting better, your character is. That is bad design for this series.

What? It's a goddamn RPG! Earning souls to invest in stat and upgrading your character is part of the core gameplay. Are you people for real?

 

[Neiteio]

Still the thing is youre doing this because of a stat...not because the game is organically through its gameplay teaching you these things. It is very bad design.

You could say that about any stat in the game. You'll handle certain situations differently when your various stats (vitality, endurance, vigor, etc) are one way vs. another. Adaptability is as organic as anything else. If you find your playstyle would benefit from the cushion of safe dodging, then you'll come to focus on that, just as you'd come to focus on vitality if longevity was an issue, or endurance if you're fat-rolling, or strength if your attacks are doing chip damage.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

But you -are- getting better. It's not just your character. You have to learn skills and hone skills to survive with low adaptability. When you reach the point you're able to upgrade your adaptability, you've earned it through improving your skills. Skills like picking your shots, baiting and punishing attacks, spatial awareness, using the environment to your advantage, managing your resources, etc.

Adaptability is the same as any other stat. You could say that improving your health is "your character getting better, not the player," but it still wouldn't be true, since you have to skillfully achieve that point in the first place.

Do you bait attacks, pick your shots and punish attacks with high ADP and i-frames. But instead of just dying a lot of times because of them, you can actually play a melee character like it was meant, going throught attacks rather than running away from them. If the basic concept of a melee, no shield based character.

And is how you play onwards once you get enough ADP, so basically until that point you have been playing in a way it was never meant.

 

[Gbraga]

I think adaptability was a huge mistake, but I also agree that a SL1 run is doable. You can easily work around it, but I think you shouldn't have to. The wonky hitboxes and hit detection also don't help with that. Not only it didn't look like it should hit you, it just wouldn't hit you if the iframes on rolls worked the same way as before. It's a bad decision, but nothing game breaker.

I wouldn't complain as much about Dark Souls II if Agility was as bad as it got, it would just be a minor issue, imo.

 

[Soriku]

I blame Miyazaki for everything.

 

[UberLevi]

Well duh.

Dude's obviously a masochist if you look at his M.O.

 

[Neiteio]

Do you bait attacks, pick your shots and punish attacks with high ADP and i-frames. But instead of just dying a lot of times because of them, you can actually play a melee character like it was meant, going throught attacks rather than running away from them. If the basic concept of a melee, no shield based character.

And is how you play onwards once you get enough ADP, so basically until that point you have been playing in a way it was never meant.

The game is supposed to be challenging when you're weak. That's the point of becoming stronger. You can take a melee strategy, as I did, and survive those early areas with the strategies I described. Move just within range of an enemy to bait its attack; get it to whiff; learn which attacks have cooldown; then move in for a hit. If you have multiple enemies, funnel them at a choke point, or separate them with the environment, or get both of them to whiff into a cooldown, or avoid them altogether. In time you'll meet, and beat, the boss, and have enough souls to level up all of your relevant stats, with special emphasis on Adaptability. Repeat the process until you're able to dodge freely and be more cavalier with your approach.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

Its nonsensical. Improving your character by spending the souls you harvest on various performance modifying attributes is at the core of the game.

No you are at the core of the experience, if you get hit, its your fault.
This was my first level 4 kill vs rom in bloodborne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVxtxyZLeOI
, Everytime i got hit, it was my fault. If adaptability was in this game, i could get frame trapped by spiders and therefore the fight would be unfair.

What? It's a goddamn RPG! Earning souls to invest in stat and upgrading your character is part of the core gameplay. Are you people for real?

The focus is not on being an rpg, it has rpg elements.
The focus is on learning from your mistakes

 

[DoubleTake]

Good gods, what condescending tripe.
What? It's a goddamn RPG! Earning souls to invest in stat and upgrading your character is part of the core gameplay. Are you people for real?

You could say that about any stat in the game. You'll handle certain situations differently when your various stats (vitality, endurance, vigor, etc) are one way vs. another. Adaptability is as organic as anything else. If you find your playstyle would benefit from the cushion of safe dodging, then you'll come to focus on that, just as you'd come to focus on vitality if longevity was an issue, or endurance if you're fat-rolling, or strength if your attacks are doing chip damage.

Adaptability is the same as any other stat. You could say that improving your health is "your character getting better, not the player," but it still wouldn't be true, since you have to skillfully achieve that point in the first place. That's why I think it's unfair to knock Adaptability on these grounds.

I already addressed this earlier in the thread. There's a difference between raising a stat to have more hit points, or do more damage and raising a stat to make a core mechanic in a game easier. If starting out with low iframes was such a teaching tool why not leave the player with that amount of i-frames and no way to level it up? Its nothing more than a mechanic they put in place to make things more difficult early on. People seem to forget this is an ACTION Rpg. Nerfing aspects of the action can make the game more tedious than it needs to be.

If someone said "Lets have Dante start out with really low Iframes and then have the player find perks throughout the game to improve them" theyd get laughed at big time.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So is hexing and pyromancy. In Dark Souls 1 you can cast pyromancy from the start. In 2, you have to wait quite a while before unlocking it. And hexing needs such a high stat investment that you can't start hexing right away.

This is a bad thing, because... reasons.

Look I'm not a fan of ADP at all, I'm glad it'll disappear in DS3, but that's a really stupid argument. "ADP makes no-shielding a bit more difficult at the start"? Who the hell cares, the beginning of the game isn't even that hard.


...What? How can making the boss harder, trivialize it?

Hexing involves getting INT and FTH high enough (at least 30), so how are yourself gimped? You don't have access to hex spells, but you are freely to use INT and FTH spells until that point, with no problems whatsoever.

That's like saying a katana user is gimped because he has to use curved blades until he finds one...

It's hard, if your playstyle depends of evading and going into attacks, which is kinda the point of classes like dual wielding dudes. Even of the enemies themselves aren't that hard (and Forest of the giants is not the only the starting area...)

Shrine of Amana is awesome. Come at me breh

I'm not coming at you, I'm going to throw at you hundreds of long range lasers from 100m of distance.

The game is supposed to be challenging when you're weak. That's the point of becoming stronger. You can take a melee strategy, as I did, and survive those early areas with the strategies I described. Move just within range of an enemy to bait its attack; get it to whiff; learn which attacks have cooldown; then move in for a hit. If you have multiple enemies, funnel them at a choke point, or separate them with the environment, or get both of them to whiff into a cooldown, or avoid them altogether. In time you'll meet, and beat, the boss, and have enough souls to level up all of your relevant stats, with special emphasis on Adaptability. Repeat the process until you're able to dodge freely and be more cavalier with your approach.

I'm not weak, I'm gimped. I don't have low HP or low Stamina, I was taken away my first way of dealing with enemies. You're suposed to go through attacks (the whole point of i-frames), not ran away from them, you're playing in a way you won't play once you have enough ADP.

 

[Steel]

Now we're gonna need an updated version of this gif depending on how Dark Souls 3 and the Bloodborne DLC turn out(or don't).

 

[Neiteio]

No you are at the core of the experience, if you get hit, its your fault.
This was my first level 4 kill vs rom in bloodborne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVxtxyZLeOI
, Everytime i got hit, it was my fault. If adaptability was in this game, i could get frame trapped by spiders and therefore the fight would be unfair.

In my playthrough so far, I haven't encountered any enemies that are so bad they'd frame-trap me at low agility. Short of being mobbed in a corner, which would kill you just as quickly in Bloodborne.

The focus is not on being an rpg, it has rpg elements.
The focus is on learning from your mistakes

And you do learn from your mistakes. And execute strategies better next time. Again, I've taken a no armor/no shield approach to bosses and much of the PvE. Even with limited agility, I found it perfectly possible to identify openings and safely capitalize on them, all through skill and execution.

It kind of makes every early battle feel like the Defiled Watchdog in Bloodborne, where you really have to pick your shots and time them well.

 

[Vital Tundra]

That's what I like to hear. Man has confidence. He is the hero we deserve.

 

[Neiteio]

I already addressed this earlier in the thread. There's a difference between raising a stat to have more hit points, or do more damage and raising a stat to make a core mechanic in a game easier. If starting out with low iframes was such a teaching tool why not leave the player with that amount of i-frames and no way to level it up? Its nothing more than a mechanic they put in place to make things more difficult early on. People seem to forget this is an ACTION Rpg. Nerfing aspects of the action can make the game more tedious than it needs to be.

If someone said "Lets have Dante start out with really low Iframes and then have the player find perks throughout the game to improve them" theyd get laughed at big time.

Investing in Vitality, Strength, etc., all make the game easier. I see you're trying to make the distinction that dodging is a mechanic and the other properties are somehow more passive and balance-related, but they all play an active role in how quickly you take down threats and how long you survive. In all cases, skill and execution can carry you regardless of any limitations on stats. And in all cases, your current limitations should inform the nature of the challenge at hand and how you approach it.

Again, I can understand not preferring Adaptability — I don't prefer it myself — but I strongly disagree that it's "bad design." It works well. You just have to keep it in mind, and develop your skills/strategies accordingly.

 

[Clear]

No you are at the core of the experience, if you get hit, its your fault.
This was my first level 4 kill vs rom in bloodborne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVxtxyZLeOI
, Everytime i got hit, it was my fault. If adaptability was in this game, i could get frame trapped by spiders and therefore the fight would be unfair.


The focus is not on being an rpg, it has rpg elements.
The focus is on learning from your mistakes

Utter nonsense.

Taking a hit isn't problematic because it isn't a game about never getting hit, its about winning battles.

Being able to survive taking hits and being able to recover from the damage incurred (i.e tanking!) is just as valid a strategy as anything else.

Evasiveness is a component of the combat system, not its totality.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

In my playthrough so far, I haven't encountered any enemies that are so bad they'd frame-trap me at low agility. Short of being mobbed in a corner, which would kill you just as quickly in Bloodborne.


And you do learn from your mistakes. And execute strategies better next time. Again, I've taken a no armor/no shield approach to bosses and much of the PvE. Even with limited agility, I found it perfectly possible to identify openings and safely capitalize on them, all through skill and execution.

It kind of makes every early battle feel like the Defiled Watchdog in Bloodborne, where you really have to pick your shots and time them well.

There are 15 bosses in the game that can possibly frame trap you with no adaptability,

 

[Neiteio]

I'm not weak, I'm gimped. I don't have low HP or low Stamina, I was taken away my first way of dealing with enemies. You're suposed to go through attacks (the whole point of i-frames), not ran away from them, you're playing in a way you won't play once you have enough ADP.

You don't have to run from battles. You just have to pick where and when you fight, and when and how you take your shot. And of course you'll play differently once you've leveled up Adaptability. You'll also play differently once you have a strong cushion of HP, and once you can reliably dispatch enemies in fewer hits due to increased Strength, and so on. It's an RPG.

 

[Neiteio]

There are 15 bosses in the game that can possibly frame trap you with no adaptability,

When you say "with no adaptability," do you mean absolutely no investment in the stat? And are you saying it's not possible to beat those 15 bosses, even if you're patient and observant and careful in when and how you attack?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You don't have to run from battles. You just have to pick where and when you fight, and when and how you take your shot. And of course you'll play differently once you've leveled up Adaptability. You'll also play differently once you have a strong cushion of HP, and once you can reliably dispatch enemies in fewer hits due to increased Strength, and so on. It's an RPG.

I don't mean run away, I mean rolling away from attacks, rather than rolling into attacks. And I fight exactly the same with whatever HP I have, basically more HP means I have more room for mistakes (or my HP scales with the increasing damage of foes), it really dosn't change how you play as a melee.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

When you say "with no adaptability," do you mean absolutely no investment in the stat? And are you saying it's not possible to beat those 15 bosses, even if you're patient and observant and careful in when and how you attack?

No i and countless others have done so, its just if you get bad rng mob bosses can make it 100% impossible for you to dodge.
Therefore when you die you think "Nothing i could do...", not "fuckkkkkkk so close".

Utter nonsense.

Taking a hit isn't problematic because it isn't a game about never getting hit, its about winning battles.

Being able to survive taking hits and being able to recover from the damage incurred (i.e tanking!) is just as valid a strategy as anything else.

Evasiveness is a component of the combat system, not its totality.

The game is completely about not taking damage due to your skill, being a havel monster is fine if you want to play that way, but its meant to be 100% fair, if you get hit , you got hit because you didnt have the skill not to.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Utter nonsense.

Taking a hit isn't problematic because it isn't a game about never getting hit, its about winning battles.

Being able to survive taking hits and being able to recover from the damage incurred (i.e tanking!) is just as valid a strategy as anything else.

Evasiveness is a component of the combat system, not its totality.

Is the totality in certain playstyles. As a high mobility class, with no shield and melee weapons, evasion if your only mean of not getting hit and getting into a favorable position to get a hit or several hits. HP is only there as a safe net from not evading correctly.

Roll is the 101 of melee and no-shield combat in souls games...

 

[SoCoRoBo]

In your opinion.

Its completely legitimate imho, and actually an intelligent way to integrate an RPG-type "evasion" attribute into the combat system.

Either way, it certainly didn't make SL1 runs impossible so its viability is proven.

It didn't make SL1 runs impossible, but that shouldn't be the benchmark for whether it's gamebreaking or not.

Why would you want to introduce an evasion like stat into combat system of a game like this? Literally all it does is detract from 'skill of the player' type gameplay to the advantage of 'higher numbers means you're more likely to win' type gameplay.

 

[Ferrio]

I see people are still shitting on DkS2, such a shame. That game did way more things right than it did wrong, and certainly was a better overall game than Bloodborne IMO. Here's hoping the expansion fixes my issues with BB.

 

[Trainman]

>Dark Souls 3/BB thread about Miyazaki being a badass
>everyone talking about how horrible ADP and Dark Souls 2 generally are
jeez.

Dark Souls 2 was a great game with some improvements and some shortcomings with regards to its progression from Dark Souls 1. Hopefully Dark Souls 3's design is informed by those improvements and shortcomings; I have a large amount of faith that Miyazaki will have this discerning design perspective.

Also hella hyped for the Bloodborne DLC. That game was my drug of choice for a good while and I cannot wait to see how they can expand that Lovecraftian world they've built.

Maybe I'll scratch this souls itch by playing through Demon's Souls again.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The focus is not on being an rpg, it has rpg elements.
The focus is on learning from your mistakes

Hahahaha. What complete nonsense.

It is 100% an RPG. With real-time combat, but the RPG aspect is absolutely part of the core gameplay. This is undeniable.

I already addressed this earlier in the thread. There's a difference between raising a stat to have more hit points, or do more damage and raising a stat to make a core mechanic in a game easier.

There is a difference between raising a stat to have more hit points, a stat to do more damage, a stat to have more stamina, a stat to unlock access to a weapon, a stat to unlock use of spells, or a stat to be able to wear heavier gear without sacrificing mobility, or a stat to... have more i-frames when dodging. Yes, there is a difference... in that they are different stats. xD

Again, I'm not a fan of the agility stat either. I'm glad it's gone in DS3, and I won't miss it. But it's not the end of the world and it doesn't ruin the gameplay. Just level up your agility to 100 or so, and there, done.

If someone said "Lets have Dante start out with really low Iframes and then have the player find perks throughout the game to improve them" theyd get laughed at big time.

They would because DMC isn't an RPG.

In Dragon's Crown, you need to unlock the evasion skill to be able to chain consecutive dodges. Dragon's Crown is a beat-em-up but also an action-RPG. If you want more mobility you need to unlock the skill, and it's got a minimal level requirement too. The horror!

Hexing involves getting INT and FTH high enough (at least 30), so how are yourself gimped?

Unless I misunderstand, you were complaining that no-shielders were "gimped" early in the game because they need to level up ADP until they're more viable. My point is: so what? Plenty of playstyles and builds are weak/gimped early on because you need a stat investment (or even specific equipment) to make them work.

Honestly I don't like ADP because I don't like tying something as minute as invincibility frames to a stat, not because I have a problem with a stat affecting mobility in general. If agility made the roll visibly faster or made you roll farther, for example, I'd actually be OK with that. I don't like that the same roll animation at the same timing can have different results depending on a stat, but I'd be OK if the roll animation itself actually changed based on the stat.

That's like saying a katana user is gimped because he has to use curved blades until he finds one...

Indeed. Which is exactly how I read your post.

I'm not coming at you, I'm going to throw at you hundreds of long range lasers from 100m of distance.

No problem. I'll block or dodge them and then snipe back with a bow, a crossbow, or even a spell with binoculars. Or I'll rush you in zigzag and melee you to death in one or two hits.

Utter nonsense.

Taking a hit isn't problematic because it isn't a game about never getting hit, its about winning battles.

Being able to survive taking hits and being able to recover from the damage incurred (i.e tanking!) is just as valid a strategy as anything else.

Evasiveness is a component of the combat system, not its totality.

Yup. That's what makes Souls games so amazing. You have a wide array of tools to help you win the battles. Sometimes some tools are more effective than others at certain places, which is a good thing, because it means there's no one single winning strategy for everything.

When you say "with no adaptability," do you mean absolutely no investment in the stat? And are you saying it's not possible to beat those 15 bosses, even if you're patient and observant and careful in when and how you attack?

Of course it's possible. I beat the game with a character that never levelled up ADP at all. (Full disclosure, I did use a greatshield, but I still stayed mobile and dodged a lot, not everything can be blocked well).

basically more HP means I have more room for mistakes (or my HP scales with the increasing damage of foes), it really dosn't change how you play as a melee.

It does to me. If I die in 1 or 2 hits I'm a lot more prudent than if I die in 3-4 hits or more. I'm more willing to risk trading hits, for example.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I see people are still shitting on DkS2, such a shame.

Pointing at glaring design mistakes is not shitting on a game, I don't see people saying DkS2 is a bad game.

 

[Clear]

The game is completely about not taking damage due to your skill, being a havel monster is fine if you want to play that way, but its meant to be 100% fair, if you get hit , you got hit because you didnt have the skill not to.

So its ok to use souls to mitigate damage through armour with high defensive stats, but not to spend the same currency on widening your timing window to evade?

What about using defensive magics as opposed to offensive ones? Is that against the spirit of the game too?

You appear to thinking in a really binary way about how the game is intended to be played.

 

[Neiteio]

I don't mean run away, I mean rolling away from attacks, rather than rolling into attacks. And I fight exactly the same with whatever HP I have, basically more HP means I have more room for mistakes (or my HP scales with the increasing damage of foes), it really dosn't change how you play as a melee.

You could flip that and say i-frames are a safety net. It just depends on how you play as a melee.

 

[Robot Pants]

I have 100% faith

 

[Error]

Meh dark souls 2 is my most played souls game and the dlc areas in particular are some of the most well designed and fun in the entire series. Playing through now with a friend who's new to the series and he's having the time of his life. Not really sure what the problem is.

Bubububu B-team mayne, think about it. Game just sucks because B-team.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Unless I misunderstand, you were complaining that no-shielders were "gimped" early in the game because they need to level up ADP until they're more viable. My point is: so what? Plenty of playstyles and builds are weak/gimped early on because you need a stat investment (or even specific equipment) to make them work.

Honestly I don't like ADP because I don't like tying something as minute as invincibility frames to a stat, not because I have a problem with a stat affecting mobility in general. If agility made the roll visibly faster or made you roll farther, for example, I'd actually be OK with that. I don't like that the same roll animation at the same timing can have different results depending on a stat, but I'd be OK if the roll animation itself actually changed based on the stat.


Indeed. Which is exactly how I read your post.


No problem. I'll block or dodge them and then snipe back with a bow, a crossbow, or even a spell with binoculars. Or I'll rush you in zigzag and melee you to death in one or two hits.

My point is that as a Hexer you have a totally viable alternative until you get hexes. Magic is as a powerful tool as hexes and totally fits with it's playstyle.

There's no alternative for i-frames. To make it equal to the hexer comparisson it would be if you started with no magic at all, relegating you to the knife..or rather, you have one spell, but to use it you need 20 points invesment until you can use it.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

This discussion is so pointless at this point, ADP is out from future games, miyazaki thinks its a trash idea, laughs everytime anyone asks about it.
Just read his interviews/design works if you want to understand his vision for dark souls, he constantly promoted the concept of you beating dark souls using skill, not by grinding souls and putting on full havels.

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

So its ok to use souls to mitigate damage through armour with high defensive stats, but not to spend the same currency on widening your timing window to evade?

What about using defensive magics as opposed to offensive ones? Is that against the spirit of the game too?

You appear to thinking in a really binary way about how the game is intended to be played.

Why create such a stat that never appeared before? It literally is just dumping points into adaptability so you can have more i-frames, requiring less skill than having a set amount.

 

[DoubleTake]

There is a difference between raising a stat to have more hit points, a stat to do more damage, a stat to have more stamina, a stat to unlock access to a weapon, a stat to unlock use of spells, or a stat to be able to wear heavier gear without sacrificing mobility, or a stat to... have more i-frames when dodging. Yes, there is a difference... in that they are different stats. xD

Honestly I don't like ADP because I don't like tying something as minute as invincibility frames to a stat, not because I have a problem with a stat affecting mobility in general. If agility made the roll visibly faster or made you roll farther, for example, I'd actually be OK with that. I don't like that the same roll animation at the same timing can have different results depending on a stat, but I'd be OK if the roll animation itself actually changed based on the stat.

Oookay...so you agree cool.

 

[Solrac]

i've more hype for bb exp than ds3