Interrobang
Member
That's good to know. The DLC was leaps and bounds above the core game.
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Gamespot - I Can Handle Bloodborne DLC and Dark Souls 3 Simultaneously, says Miyazaki
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
That's good to know. The DLC was leaps and bounds above the core game.
DS2 is designed around the adaptability stat and reduced evasion you have at the start, so it's fine, especially since the average boss victory will net you enough souls to level up 6-7 times. In the end it allows you to exceed normal evasion.
The mobs have been a refreshing challenge -- provoking them, luring them with sound, etc, to reveal their true numbers, and then making the cost/benefit calculation of funneling them or splitting them up, vs. running and regrouping. Their numbers are great, but their variety and placement is thoughtful. The mobs demand prioritization, spatial awareness and proper execution. Some of the most challenging non-boss PvE encounters in the series.
And personally, I think the life gems are brilliant. You can use them preemptively to heal as you take damage; alternatively, you might have to dance around and wait for your HP to refill. Makes boss encounters more tense and interesting.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That's not just true. Dual welding class is gimped at the start for that very reason.
Gimped in what sense? No shield so the reduced evasion hurts?
Off-Kilter
Banned
What a beast of a man. That last paragraph is particularly poignant.
Can't wait for both products.
Can't wait for both products.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
This needs to be quoted more. It's sad that every Dark Souls thread on GAF always devolves into DS2 hate and misinformation.
DoubleTake
Member
Adaptability is a bad stat. You shouldnt have to level up a stat to use items quicker or get i frames back to certain point where rolling is actually viable. Being able to level up many times to get it up doesnt dispel that fact. Miyazaki even said it himself that he'd rather not have the player feeling stressed over raising a certain stat in the early game so its not making it back into Ds3, thankfully.
With how slow your character in Ds2 moves compared to the other games in the series mobs can get pretty damn annoying. Stamina regen is slower in this game, your swings get slower the lower your stamina is, and recovering from weapon swings is significantly slower. All this makes taking on large groups of enemies in this game a bit tiring imo.
Life gems are not brilliant. They kill the sense of dread you get when youre going through a level and are beginning to run low on Estus, praying for that next bonfire. Of course in DS2 since bonfires are so frequent I suppose that feeling doesnt come often. Wait until end game when you can hoard 99 lifegems and go through levels without using 1 estus flask being able to save them all for the boss.
Hell yeah I'm happy the guy who directed possibly the best content in the series (the non-coop parts of the Dark Souls 2 DLC) is working on DS3.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, you can still dodge at low AGL. It's just a very demanding sweet spot. If you're looking to dual-wield from the start, the challenge would be learning to hit that sweet spot. Certain builds in the other games have a rough go early on, as well, but it's the challenge you take with certain builds. And if you're leveling up, the agility will resolve itself in time. And the satisfaction from increasing your mobility is great.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
You shouldn't never learn that sweet spot, when it's several times tighter than in any other souls game (the guy who made the video said he evaded properly like 2 times in one hour of testing). Makes no-shield melee classes harder for no good reason and totally gets away their best "skill" to properly advance to the game, there's no satisfaction when you get a proper amount of AGL, just the relief of not having more stupid deaths because of a bad design decision. Artificial difficulty has no place in a souls game.
The fact is not coming back for DS3, proves that.
I don't think Adaptability is necessary, and I won't miss it in DS3, but I don't think it hurts DS2 in any way. It's one of numerous factors that make the game more challenging — another variable you have to keep in mind as you approach each situation and gauge whether you can handle the challenge before you and how best to take it. That's my impression of it so far, now that I'm past the point where it was a nuisance in any fashion.
Regarding life gems, I think they're a fair way to offset the fact your estus flask starts with one charge. The estus flask having such a slow windup followed by quick healing is a reversal of the life gems having a quick startup but slow healing. Each has an advantage and disadvantage. I think it's interesting. Challenging, but interesting.
Wow. Miyazaki's games doing the talking for him.
Actually, come to think of it, I wasn't even using a shield in the early game when Adaptability was low, but I made it through bosses like Last Giant and Pursuer and the levels leading up to them just fine. (Wasn't wearing armor either low equip load meant I was zipping around the battlefield with my club.)
DoubleTake
Member
Eh. Im of the belief that a certain stat shouldnt be the determining factor on how difficult of a time you have with a core mechanic in the game. Leveling up Health to take more hits or strength to do more damage is something completely different than level up adaptability to get more iframes.
Yes thats the idea behind life gems. But it falls apart once you can buy 99 of them. Unless you put an arbitrary restriction on yourself later on the game will become significantly easier because lifegems go from supplementing slow Estus to carrying you through an entire level til you reach the boss.
Either way no point in continuing to debate Ds2 design decisions. Ds3 is coming and im excited for that.
Kwansu Dudes
Member
Agreed. Had a pleasant time with DS2 despite the questionable design decisions.
I have faith and am ready for more Miyazaki Soup for the Soul.
I respect your opinions. Just offering my own on how I think it works in its own way.
neoism
Member
meh DS2 is the best game in the series.. the only thing i can knock DS2 for was the enviormental design which wasnt bad but it wasnt as good as DS or even BB but I even liked DS 2 more than BB ... BB was good but it was soo limited and the variety just wasnt there plus the pvp lol... not sure what mistakes youre talking about other the environments(talking about overall connection bewteen them) and maybe the hit boxes you could mean otherwise the game is fucking amazing... both which never bothered me at all in my 5 times through it and over 1000 pvp battles... Miyazaki over saw things in DS2 as well... but i just love the game it was still really hard first time through..
i just dont worship the ground Miyazaki walks on like most of gaf... i only liked DS1 a little and i have DemSouls but havent really got into it yet... but DS2 just fully clicked with me... the only Miyazaki game i love is BB but after playing it after fully enjoying DS2 on pc it was a little bit of a disappointment.. too little weapons and armor and basically the same fucking enviroments over and over..
the lightinggate thing with DS2 was never something that bothered me... i wasnt really sure about getting DS2 when it was released on pc but i did and it totally blew me away... but its that and the fact that Miyazaki didnt direct it.. that gaffers dislike it...even though he was working on BB at the time i think he was invovled with DS2 more than people think....
but you know BB shouldnt have been so limited and the pvp soo meh and the enviroments soo blend..even though the are creepy and look good... BB had/has problems.. you'd think that these wouldnt be problems that exisit with a amazing "director" and this being his 4th game in the series...
i will never understand some of gafs hate for DS2....
The early bosses really aren't that punishing against the shorter invulnerability periods during rolling when ADP is low. Last Giant basically has no moves that require i-frames, Pursuer is only an issue if you get clipped by his grab or are rolling the same direction as his swings, rather than against them, and Dragon Rider is a boss where you should be abusing the limited arc of his big swings.
Later bosses, like Dark Lurker, Throne folks, and a bunch of the DLC bosses, have attacks that require either good ADP or ranging/zoning strategies.
However, the ADP rules are particularly punishing against people that get under 70% load to fast roll without realizing the continual benefits to roll distance from reducing your weight load.
And for what it is worth, i-frames depended on stats in both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls. It's just that it was the same stat that boosted your equipment weight, rather than being separated into its own stat.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
True. Specially since Miyazaki erased them from existence for DkS3.
- Life gems
- No real connected world
- Movement and control
- ADP stat
- Lackluster design (except DLC)
- Overreliance on tropes of enemies
- Etc...
Even if you agree or not on several of these issues, the fact that life gems are gone, controls and movement went back to DkS roots and ADP is no longer there, you can see that Miyazaki thinks of those things as "mistakes" and for that reason they aren't coming back.
Yep.
Demons Souls - 9.6
Dark Souls - 9.5
Bloodborne - 9.4
Dark Souls II - 9.0
4 great games. Stunning output from Miyazaki & co.
First, I just want to say your avatar with the baby elephant is adorable. :-3
Second, my point re: the early bosses/areas being doable with low Adaptability is that those early victories will give you more than enough souls to make -some- investment in Adaptability. The game seems to give you a surplus of souls at each milestone. If you can level up 7 times after beating one boss, putting 2-3 toward Adaptability and the rest in Vitality, Vigor, and Strength/Skill (or Faith/Intelligence, depending on your build) will be enough to start improving your mobility for what's ahead, while still making your HP and attack power more than sufficient for the next area/boss. I see what they're doing they're trying to make more qualities of the character feel measurable in their improvement from one level to the next and for the most part, I think it works. Even if I won't miss Adaptability in DS3.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That was a conscious choice you could make, you could instantly could get under 30% load by sacrifcing defense. It was a tradeoff.
Equipment weight only determined how big that tradeoff was.
Also, Forest of the giants is not the only early area of the game. Just as a note.
And Pursuer is a very hard boss without ADP, unless you exploit the parry-ballesta trick (or go co-op)
DoubleTake
Member
Understood, i respect yours as well!
Ehh not necessarily. Your iframes were constant in those games. However, how much you had equipped determined your roll speeds. Endurance raised your stamina and equip load allowing you to wear heavier armors and continue to fast roll. Then once you broke the 50% threshold youd begin to medium roll. Im not exactly sure how many Iframes the medium roll has in comparison to fast though.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Bless Miyazaki.
It doesn't mean he thinks they're "mistakes." It means he doesn't think they suit the kind of game he intends DS3 to be. DS2 was its own thing and those items worked well for DS2. But DS3 will be its own game with its own progression, pacing, structure, mechanics, etc. -That's- the reason those items aren't present. It's not some decision that they're a "mistake." Or at least, we have no evidence to suggest one way or the other.
Yeah! This time he won't force the game to have a super troubled development. How dare he and his team pull all the pieces together and bring us a good game!?
Edit: Other than that, the DLC areas showed what the team was really capable of with proper planning, I feel.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Miyazaki comments on ADP left very little to the imagination...
He said that because he realized what he just said.
'Shit...I mentioned DS2 director will be on the team. Time to downplay it.'
neoism
Member
i didnt mined the movment in DS2 i liked it infact, as long as DS3 is like BB im good i think DS was just werid... the character had no weight at all i didn't like it at all.. but BB controlled great... life gems... shrugs... never really used them after i had like 10+ estus..
fuck the only thing i want them to keep in DS3 is respecing... really dislike that Miyasaki took that out of BB not everyone likes to make 647484846355352738 characters... the 5 times through DS2 is with one character on level 300... its one of the reasons the game was soo replayable for me... i am going through BB again in a few days.. but its just my second time though... i liked changing stats when i wanted to change play styles.. it added choice to the game you didnt have to repec if you didnt want to but could if you did...
I didn't see that. I stand corrected then. If that's true, it would appear he thought it was a counter-productive stat.
That being said, I don't think he's right by default. He's had his shortcomings (the under-designed Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith and some gimmick bosses among them). He's a genius, for sure, and probably my favorite developer in the business, but I do think sometimes an alternate approach can work.
Some things from DS2 I think everyone would agree should be in DS3:
- Ability to continue exploring the world after beating the game
- Respeccing your character
- Gender swapping
- Huge build variety
- NG+ in areas within NG
- Ability to refight bosses
- The covenants and PvP
- Fast travel from the start
- Quality-of-life features like "sometimes hide" for HUD
And maybe de-spawning enemies, since DS2 gave you ways to bring them back (and harder than before). Depends on how many enemies they place in the gauntlets leading to each boss, I suppose.
- Ability to continue exploring the world after beating the game
- Respeccing your character
- Gender swapping
- Huge build variety
- NG+ in areas within NG
- Ability to refight bosses
- The covenants and PvP
- Fast travel from the start
- Quality-of-life features like "sometimes hide" for HUD
And maybe de-spawning enemies, since DS2 gave you ways to bring them back (and harder than before). Depends on how many enemies they place in the gauntlets leading to each boss, I suppose.
Aces&Eights
Member
My wish for 2016:
Jan release of Demons Souls remaster 1080p/60
Feb release of Dark Souls remaster 1080p/60
March release of Bloodborne DLC
April release of Dark Souls 3
May Die a happy man
Jan release of Demons Souls remaster 1080p/60
Feb release of Dark Souls remaster 1080p/60
March release of Bloodborne DLC
April release of Dark Souls 3
May Die a happy man
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Yeah as i said for PVE challenger runners its awful, adaptability being connected to i-frames was pointless and the worst kind of artificial difficulty.
I like many others run these games never leveling up, in ds2 adaptability meant that these run's just weren't fun for long.
Well i can't really take the mob's part seriously, since there's no clever thought about them.
- Respeccing your character
Didn't like this since it meant it trivialized your choices, but i can understand the desire. Don't think it will be in though.
- NG+ in areas within NG- Ability to refight bosses
Again trviliazed bosses
- Fast travel from the start
No.
So far, they seem thoughtfully arranged, i.e. the ratio of sword-and-shield enemies to dual-blades and single lances, or the pincer attacks they set up unless you scout them out and retreat. They're hidden in places that make them more akin to traps at times, which again adds to the need to proceed with caution. They make me feel engaged, thinking 110%, so I think they're doing something right. If they were truly "thoughtless," they'd just be plunked down point-blank in plain sight... and even when that happens, there seem to be routes around them or ways to control them.
HORRORSHØW
Member
which comes first, DLC or ds3? i'd prefer dlc first
People just saw the Forest of Fallen Giants clip with tons of fake dead undead on the ground and screamed "Omg lazy enemy spam design". Despite the fact that you can tip-toe around them, wake them up one on one, wake them all up and go down the ladder to take them out one at a time, etc.
Exactly.
I used to buy into the fear-mongering around DS2: SotFS, and nearly passed up the game because of it. But I'm glad I gave it a shot.
I don't know about the rest of SOTFS since I haven't got it yet, but the reaction to that was pretty funny; people were complaining about thoughtless enemy placement in DS2, then the SOTFS footage showed a fight modified to be more unique and require thinking about your approach and people got mad about that too.
Eh, no one blamed anyone but the "A Team" for garbage Chalice Dungeons (though Miyazaki didn't design those) or the unfinished Byrgenwerth dungeon.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Yeah the "hate" for DS2 isn't usually hate ( it's just not as good as the others ) , its still a fantastic game and can easily be your favorite in the series depending on what matters to you.
Hate backtracking? Demon's is probably your favorite
Love metroidvania world design and feeling immersed? Dark souls
Want a more streamline version of dark souls? Bloodborne
Love pvp? Want a massive games with tons of areas/enemies/ weapons? Dark souls 2
Most people expected the Chalice dungeons to suck, they would be alot better if the path to queen didn't feature any repeat bosses or areas.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I don't think no one ever complained about that. More like spots like fucking Shrine of Amana, for example.
I'd say this is a fair and balanced take. I personally think we should celebrate the variety we've gotten with the Soul/borne series so far. They still have the "Souls" core, but they approach it in different ways. Depending on one's tastes, they may like or dislike certain elements, but at the end of the day they're all good games, and "Souls" games.
But Tanimura wasn't involved with Bloodborne
Well, but the logic would still find a way to be applied, maybe "it's the co-director's fault".
No one forgot Lost Izalith either.
They would be a lot better if you could just buy every requirement for them, so you could just rush to the lever and then to the boss. The boss fights and some cool enemies are really nice, but the levels are shite
JigglesBunny
Banned
I've had difficulty getting into the Souls series after Demon Souls because I barely clocked in time on DS and DS II was super "meh" but I'm planning on picking up Bloodborne come Black Friday time and I'm cautiously excited for DS III so this is good news that he's firmly under control.