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[CoyoteSpitfire]

Maybe we should all drop our self awareness and speak without thought, You first.

You seem to have gotten a head start on that.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Maybe we should all drop our self awareness and speak without thought, You first.

I'm not the one debating semantics here.

Self-censorship is the act of censoring or classifying one's own blog, book, film, or other forms of media. This is done out of fear of, or deference to, the sensibilities or preferences (actual or perceived) of others and without overt pressure from any specific party or institution of authority.

 

[Battlechili]

The game isn't even out yet.
I mean I'm normally with the "no censorship ever no matter what" crowd but the game hasn't been released anywhere. How can it be censored? I mean unless Capcom at some point says "we made some changes during development because we were afraid how people would react" I don't really see how this can be seen as anything other than just changes during development, which is what games do until completion.

 

[KarmaCow]

Oh come on, I saw a person get called out for having an H-Game avatar because their avatar is Saber. Another person responded seriously to the R. Mika Burka picture was "another disingenuous argument". I'd say most people don't want to see the change, aren't particularly mad about it, but are make jokes for fun.

Well like I first said in the thread, I'm having trouble telling who is actually serious but that's because there is a significant portion of people on GAF who do sincerely see this as an egregious first step on a slippery slope. This thread and the other threads like it wouldn't explode if there wasn't that contingent (and the people who argue with them).

 

[petran79]

PC mods will come to the rescue, dont worry. This isnt a Nintendo game.

But see it as something positive. SFV will target now children, just like SF2. It will be more popular. They wouldnt even dare enter arcades 20 years ago.

Console versions of SF2 were heavily edited with removal of blood, bruises, quotes and puke. They even replaced Mike in the intro with a blonde white guy so as to not stir Afroamericans.

 

[K.Sabot]

Self-censorship is still censorship.

nah bro self-censorship due to social stigmas and trends doesn't exist, or if it does exist it isn't censorship at all! check the definition bro, they're completely willing participants and we totally didn't create an environment that more often than not reacts hostilely to things we don't find particular to our tastes!

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

You can call it self-censorship if you are also willing to call the other thousands of decisions that go into developing a game self-censorship. There are dozens of voices on that design team and they all have different opinions on Art, Design, and Gameplay. In the process of hashing things out, countless ideas are left behind. That's how you make things.

So even if the decision is made to avoid some public censure it's still not self censorship because they're just going with the majority opinion (obviously why else would they do it) and that's all part of the creative process. So there really isn't any self-censorship at all?

 

[Vex_]

Substantiate your own claims first.

Claim? I'm just playing devil's advocate. This is why there are question marks in my post, I am asking YOU. Since you seemed to know something.

Right? You know something? <---question marks.

 

[PKrockin]

I'm not a Street Fighter fan but this R. Mika has the worst character design I've seen in a while. lol

Source? You sure this dev who animated da booty turned around and all of a sudden said, "hey lets completely hide all the work I did animating dat booty"?

Or was it a higher up under pressure, or something else? Source? Info? Pls?

You think it's unbelievable for devs to make something one way, then change their mind later and redo it? I wonder what games would look like if everyone ran with their first draft on everything.

 

[MHWilliams]

Haha yeah, the majority of people are probably not happy with the change and having a laugh. There are plenty of posts like that, like mine for example. There are some people who are legitimately mad about it.

God, fucking look at you. Why did I even try?

Again, your assertion was that many posters aren't actually angry at the changes, they're just having a laugh. That lamentations are not serious at all.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to gauge this if I can't take their posts at face value and can't ask them if they're joking or not. That's rather a non-starter situation, right?

 

[Puruzi]

More than one person is working on SFV.

I'm aware of that, but what i'm saying is that someone wanted it removed, and it wasn't the person who made it. It's basically censorship, and I really don't care for arguing semantics right now.

 

[capitalCORN]

I'm not the one debating semantics here.

Describe the backlash or danger you imagine Capcom would face if this change did not take place.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Nah, I like silliness in Street Fighter. But since we're making assumptions I'll go ahead and say the disappointment is not because Street Fighter's goofy fun nature is under attack. I think you can guess why people are actually mad about it.

I don't have to guess because I know what it is. They took out a few service shots, I don't see why they had to be removed in particular. It fits the tone of the game with the outfits and all.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Is any act of editing self censorship? Again, do you have any idea how many things get changes/cut in game development? It's constant triage. That's how it works.

Intent is important. If something is cut because "it may insult sensibilities" as opposed to something getting cut/edited because it's stupid/untranslatable/doesn't mesh with the original vision/etc, then it's by definition self-censorship. I'm not even arguing that it's wrong in all scenarios, but that doesn't change the definition.

 

[Dark Ninja]

They are going to have to change Zangief's SPD camera angle too Or Zangief can put his hand on their crotch to cover it. Pick your poison Capcom

 

[capitalCORN]

Claim? I'm just playing devil's advocate. This is why there are question marks in my post, I am asking YOU. Since you seemed to know something.

Right? You know something? <---question marks.

If you're just playing devil's advocate you have not stake nor quarrel. What do I owe you now?

 

[RM8]

PC mods will come to the rescue, dont worry. This isnt a Nintendo game.

But see it as something positive. SFV will target now children, just like SF2. It will be more popular. They wouldnt even dare enter arcades 20 years ago.

Console versions of SF2 were heavily edited with removal of blood, bruises, quotes and puke. They even replaced Mike in the intro with a blonde white guy so as to not stir Afroamericans.

Capcom has always been SJW!

BTW, Cammy was going to be censored:

And you know what? I kind of like that outfit, it should be an alt.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Again, your assertion was that many posters aren't actually angry at the changes, they're just having a laugh. That lamentations are not serious at all.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to gauge this if I can't take their posts at face value and can't ask them if they're joking or not. That's rather a non-starter situation, right?

I don't know what's more ridiculous that you actually think posting like that is in good faith or that you're tolerated making posts like this because everyone else thinks you're posting in good faith. That second line was just such an obvious piss take. You can't demonstrate that the majority of people are actually upset so in the most over the top way you cup your hands and go "HEY GUYS", you might as well have just called me an idiot for daring to disagree with you on the tone of the thread.

 

[jetsetnickradio]

I didn't notice her true love I've failed her...

Somebody pressed the Share button while she was slapping her ass for them and then shared it on the interwebs and now she's terrified to slap her ass so you have to win her trust. It won't be easy, but easy love is cheap love. Butt Slap Love Earned Through Trust is Best Love.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Describe the backlash or danger you imagine Capcom would face if this change did not take place.

It says actual or perceived right there. I don't think they'd face any danger and I'm sure if they are expecting any, it would be super mild.

 

[Vex_]

I'm not a Street Fighter fan but this R. Mika has the worst character design I've seen in a while. lol


You think it's unbelievable for devs to make something one way, then change their mind later and redo it? I wonder what games would look like if everyone ran with their first draft on everything.

I don't think you understand. I need you to understand: He animated da booty.

I think you are generalizing this a bit. He didn't just add "something" and then take it away, he animated an ass. Huge difference. That takes heart.

 

[capitalCORN]

It says actual or perceived right there. I don't think they'd face any danger and I'm sure if they do, it would be super mild.

So why argue the change, if the so called act of 'censorship' is born out of no real harm?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

So why argue the change, if the so called act of 'censorship' is born out of no real harm?

I'm not arguing the change, I'm arguing the definition of self-censorship which people can't seem to wrap their head around.

 

[Cloyster]

Oh fuck that man, that sucks.

I really liked the animation.

 

[Akibared]

Somebody pressed the Share button while she was slapping her ass for them and then shared it on the interwebs and now she's terrified to slap her ass so you have to win her trust. It won't be easy, but easy love is cheap love. Butt Slap Love Earned Through Trust is Best Love.

I think with all my years of VN experience I can unlock that true end butt slap!

 

[BlastProcessing]

So even if the decision is made to avoid some public censure it's still not self censorship because they're just going with the majority opinion (obviously why else would they do it) and that's all part of the creative process. So there really isn't any self-censorship at all?

If you are making a game and one of your devs suggests something that doesn't fit with your vision of what the game needs to be, then you fix it. And your idea of what the game needs to be is, itself, a moving target. It's far too fluid to point at a single instance and pin down what it means. When I sit down to write a poem, I will self-censor it hundreds of times. When I am working on a game my partner and I are constantly hashing things out. We are trying to make a thing that people will enjoy. We are trying to create a specific mood, a specific feel.

In this case the original decision to put the buttslap in was inherently also an act of (the dreaded) self-censorship. All of the other things that could have happened there were set aside. Every single thing in a game is the result of conscious effort. It's all intentional. Focusing on one instance and then trying to extrapolate an entire narrative when you don't know anything about what is actually going on in that studio is completely fruitless.

I'm aware of that, but what i'm saying is that someone wanted it removed, and it wasn't the person who made it. It's basically censorship, and I really don't care for arguing semantics right now.

No, it's compromise. Which is the only way that games get made. Games aren't birthed fully formed.

 

[MHWilliams]

I don't know what's more ridiculous that you actually think posting like that is in good faith or that you're tolerated making posts like this because everyone else thinks you're posting in good faith. It was just such an obvious piss take. You can't demonstrate that the majority of people are actually upset so in the most over the top way you cup your hands and go "HEY GUYS", you might as well have just called me an idiot for daring to disagree with you on the tone of the thread.

I'm really not sure we can have a conversation online if I'm not taking your statements at face value. I mean, do I assume you're joking now? Is this sarcasm? Are you serious? I assume you are, but if your assertion is true, I can't make that assumption.

You talk about having a good faith conversation, but you attempt to undermine part of that concept - taking what's being said as it's being said - in some attempt to say most of the people here who seem angry are just joking.

Again, do you see how that's a non-starter situation?

If you are making a game and one of your devs suggests something that doesn't fit with your vision of what the game needs to be, then you fix it. And your idea of what the game needs to be is, itself, a moving target. It's far too fluid to point at a single instance and pin down what it means. When I sit down to write a poem, I will self-censor it hundreds of times. When I am working on a game my partner and I are constantly hashing things out. We are trying to make a thing that people will enjoy. We are trying to create a specific mood, a specific feel.

In this case the original decision to put the buttslap in was inherently also an act of (the dreaded) self-censorship. All of the other things that could have happened there were set aside. Every single thing in a game is the result of conscious effort. It's all intentional. Focusing on one instance and then trying to extrapolate an entire narrative when you don't know anything about what is actually going on in that studio is completely fruitless.

No, it's compromise. Which is the only way that games get made. Games aren't birthed fully formed.

Which is why the self-censorship idea is a hard thing to take as bad. Once again, interviewed a few devs about this exact thing. Development is compromise.

 

[Exodust]

I don't have to guess because I know what it is. They took out a few service shots, I don't see why they had to be removed in particular. It fits the tone of the game with the outfits and all.

A few service shots is hardly anything you should give a shit about getting in a fighting game. And it really, really doesn't matter at all.

 

[chaobreaker]

Make it happen Capcom

Why does this Sears catalog model look like she's going to drop the hottest Stand of 1989?

 

[capitalCORN]

I'm not arguing the change, I'm arguing the definition of self-censorship which people can't seem to wrap their head around.

My quote revolved around the point that Capcom did this change with their own interest in mind. Why argue any further?

 

[SlipperyFishes]

I'm not arguing the change, I'm arguing the definition of self-censorship which people can't seem to wrap their head around.

Right. They made a conscious decision to change it. For all we know it was fucking with their rating in some part of the world.

 

[FyreWulff]

TIL once we developers make a decision we have to stick it with it forever or it's senslshaps

 

[Puruzi]

No, it's compromise. Which is the only way that games get made. Games aren't birthed fully formed.

The animation is gone. That's not compromise. Someone told them that it had to be out and that was that.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

I'm really not sure we can have a conversation online if I'm not taking your statements at face value. I mean, do I assume you're joking now? Is this sarcasm? Are you serious? I assume you are, but if your assertion is true, I can't make that assumption.

Are you really going to pretend you can't tell the "preorder cancelled" and "dream is dead" posts don't represent blistering anger? Like do you really need this point that bad that you have to act like you don't understand the simplest facets of humor on a site you apparently like a lot?

Also I'm completely serious, your shtick has wore thin.

 

[RM8]

The animation is gone. That's not compromise. Someone told them that it had to be out and that was that.

Do you realize this happens all the time? Tons of elements get discarded before a game goes gold.

 

[capitalCORN]

The animation is gone. That's not compromise. Someone told them that it had to be out and that was that.

Do you know the explicit reason for the removal of the said content?

 

[TheOGB]

At least the Cammy change is good, old angle looked awkward.

Mika angle change is... unfortunate, but

Spoiler

t

whatever.

 

[MHWilliams]

Are you really going to pretend you can't tell the "preorder cancelled" and "dream is dead" posts don't represent blistering anger? Like do you really need this point that bad that you have to act like you don't understand the simplest facets of humor on a site you apparently like a lot?

Also I'm completely serious, your shtick has wore thin.

Nope, those posts are clearly joking. I'm talking, as I said, about the posts that represent anger at the changes. I'm taking those at face value. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's not a shtick.

EDIT: Here's an example:

Joking!

Booty Back DLC Pack incoming.

Both sides are ending up with these long-winded 8 page posts on both sides trying to explain why the other is more outrageous and problematic than the other.

But all these tangents are taking away from the discussion; let's get on topic here:

We love the booty

They took away the booty

We need the booty back.

SAVE US ITAGAKI

Angry!

Fucking retarded

They should just remove the women altogether so theres no hint of female sexualization.

Completely unreasonable, i didn't find many people offended by it.

What the actual fuck. This is some straight up bullshit right here.

Fuck

Bring it back Capcom.

Sadly this is expected in this PC world of ours, can't afford to hurt anyones feelings. Sucks.

Might I be reading these statements wrong? Maybe. But I'm taking what I see. I have no idea about the thought processes behind the posts. I'm just going with what I'm seeing.

 

[Vex_]

At least the Cammy change is good, old angle looked awkward.

Mika angle change is... unfortunate, but

Spoiler

t

whatever.

Nice.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

A few service shots is hardly anything you should give a shit about getting in a fighting game. And it really, really doesn't matter at all.

I can take or leave the Cammy crotch shot, but the Mika butt slap gives a sense of levity to the character. Then before I know it Vega doesn't lick his claws anymore!?

 

[BlastProcessing]

The animation is gone. That's not compromise. Someone told them that it had to be out and that was that.

It's 100% compromise. I am telling you how making a game actually works. It's a team game. Are you basing your claims of what went down on any knowledge? You seem very sure.

 

[Puruzi]

Do you realize this happens all the time? Tons of elements get discarded before a game goes gold.

Yeah i'm well aware. Just saying that it's prob not compromise.

Do you know the explicit reason for the removal of the said content?

I'm assuming capcom wants it out because they think it might offend someone, as we don't have an official statement on it. If i'm wrong i'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

 

[Black Republican]

What I don't understand is... Why is the split a bad thing?

hmm, how many female characters have skirts in the game? maybe that? i donno

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

Do you realize this happens all the time? Tons of elements get discarded before a game goes gold.

There's a difference between a dev removing something because it doesn't fit the game and a dev removing something because they don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities.

 

[Akibared]

Do you know the explicit reason for the removal of the said content?

No one does and that's why I would love Capcom to say something soon. It's just back and forth speculation and it's getting pretty silly.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Are you really going to pretend you can't tell the "preorder cancelled" and "dream is dead" posts don't represent blistering anger? Like do you really need this point that bad that you have to act like you don't understand the simplest facets of humor on a site you apparently like a lot?

Also I'm completely serious, your shtick has wore thin.

Him trying to have a conversation in good faith is not a shtick.

 

[Vex_]

I can take or leave the Cammy crotch shot, but the Mika butt slap gives a sense of levity to the character. Then before I know it Vega doesn't lick his claws anymore!?

Or they put a shirt on ryu? Or skinny up bae Li's thighs? I will March to capcom on that one!

Spoiler

Sikkkee! I ain't walkin nowhere!

 

[Ushay]

But this is perfectly fine people!
Jesus.

The ratings are completely different. SFV is aimed at most age groups, come on guys it isn't rocket science why they did this. That being said, should at least have a toggle for age in game.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Yeah i'm well aware. Just saying that it's prob not compromise.

I'm assuming capcom wants it out because they think it might offend someone, as we don't have an official statement on it. If i'm wrong i'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

Sometimes there is an inverse proportional relationship between how sure someone is on a subject and the amount of knowledge that they have on that subject.

What are you basing your theory on? Because it feels like paranoia.

There's a difference between a dev removing something because it doesn't fit the game and a dev removing something because they don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities.

There's a difference between a fact and a guess.

 

[RM8]

There's a difference between a dev removing something because it doesn't fit the game and a dev removing something because they don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities.

I refuse to believe it's the latter, the girls are still super skimpy and the angles still focus on their anatomy for the most part. Look at Laura's intro, lol.