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Eurogamer: Why I'm tired of Fallout 4 encumbrance
- Thread starter Zombie James
- Start date
It's odd people are conflating/confusing your meaning
Is referring to this:
Specifically:
Glass Shark
Banned
I don't think you are really seeing my point. The argument I'm making is that the points you put into stats and perks that allow you to carry more stuff don't do anything aside from making you have to spend less time managing your inventory. You have to follow the exact same process if you have a bunch of points in stuff that gives you more carry weight as you do if you have zero points in that stuff. The only difference is how many trips you'd have to make back to base to stash all the stuff you've picked up. And that means the only barrier, as someone stated earlier, is your willingness to look at loading screens.
It doesn't change anything about how you approach your situation other than how long it takes you to ferry stuff back and forth.
Mystic_Wanderer
Member
How could anybody be so daft to think it is cheating? It doesn't grant you any extra abilities. It doesn't make the game easier; it makes the game more expedient.
I don't why anything labeled as junk has a weight to it. I'm just going to use it for base building or making armors and weapons so why does it have a weight? I get why armors and weapons have weight and I don't have a problem with that, but what I don't understand is why picking up tin cans causes me to become over encumbered.
Easton Dark
Member
There are perks that marginalize the issue of carry weight. It's removing the consequences of investing skill points into those perks. That's why it's considered cheating. It grants you abilities the game has that you haven't earned.
The difference is some perks exist to make you better at things you already enjoy or grant new abilities entirely. The Encumbrance perk is a perk that exists to try and less the annoyance and frustration of a thing people DON'T enjoy... and it's still not as effective as many people (myself included) would like it to be.
Just because a perk exists doesn't mean it's good or well thought-out anyway. It's like Deus Ex having a perk for "swimming"... which you'll use roughly 1% of the time or less.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
There isn't anything wrong with it. I simply do not understand how playing the game like that is fun. I mean the story is, like, not good. What is the point of exploring when any reward you would find is rendered meaningless considering nothing in the game world poses any threat. Why be excited to get a new gun when at lvl 250 the first pistol you get will wreck anything. It is just strange to me.
And my argument is that if you do not like doing this stuff, then there is a character build avenue open to you to mitigate the amount of time you have to spend doing it. How is that not beneficial to this person that has such a problem with encumbrance management?
Easton Dark
Member
This is where you lose me. Strong Back removes every consequence encumbrance has at the expense of using action points that refill in a second. If you could still run while over-encumbered without the use of action points would it then be good enough?
And I also agree some perks in the game aren't good or worth it, but Strong Back seems ridiculously overkill even for a character that likes to take everything, but that's coming from someone who does not pick up everything they find.
I've used this build. I have the Strong Back perk.
It wasn't helping much. It's putting a band-aid on a bigger problem, and I'm still running out of inventory space far too quickly.
Even if that weren't the case, it's still a character build created to mitigate a point of annoyance and frustration when I'd rather be putting perks into far more enjoyable abilities that actually enhance gameplay, open up new powers entirely, and actually expand my character's performance rather than marginally stemming an annoying issue that tags along wherever I go no matter what I do.
I modded it out in previous games and the "benefit" was a game I enjoyed far more because I could focus on enjoying the parts of the game that it does much better without being interrupted or distracted by the parts of the game that it didn't do well. "Encumbrance" is barely 1% of what Fallout is about, so dropping it entirely to enjoy the other 99% was the right decision for me to make.
Probably. I use a LOT of Action Points. It's often times more inconvenient to keep using up my Action Points than it is to just not use it.
Easton Dark
Member
Fair enough, then. I'm glad you can change the game to make it more fun for yourself.
As an explanation for myself and why I hope encumbrance stays, I find it fun becoming an expert scavenger over time. To learn what I'll get from each thing I pick up and judging its value to my current plans in a quarter-second before moving on to the next item. I like thinking like that. Playing this way, I've never felt short for resources in any regard, so that's also why it's not annoying for me as it may be for others.
Yes. The same can be said for many things: "streamline the game by removing x" but in reality, all those little things, sometimes tedious, are part of the construction we call gameplay. Taking out encumbrance lessens the significance of other parts of the game, including the important feeling of "scavenging" in a post-apocalyptic sci-fi game like Fallout.
I may be wrong since I haven't played Fallout 4, but the main problem is that the game isn't designed around encumbrance affecting how you play the game. Most games that do weight limits well have in game consequences, like losing items left behind or having to actually bactrack back to the items you dropped. They make you choose between items or complete tasks that are so tedious or difficult that the item not chosen is effectively lost.
Fallot isn't designed with that in mind. If I'm over encumbered, it's almost always because I'm carrying to much worthless junk; it's not absolutely worthless (there will be a use for it eventually), but they don't affect my character/npcs or the way I play my game. In that case my choice is between making the game unplayable, wasting hours of my life fast traveling, or completely ignoring junk items. Ignoring thosejunk items until you need them seems like the right answer, but the items are so spread out and randomly allotted that when you do need them you won't be able to find any, and you'll likely still be left fast traveling bacl and forth to transport them. The game is designed around constantly picking up items, but has systems that punish you by wasting your time.
The simple solution is to give items that don't affect gameplay (weapons, status affecting items, clothing) and that aren't key items their own hard carry limit. If a player pick up to many riffles or wants to have a ton of heavy weapons, it makes sense to limit what they can carry because it's something that can affect gameplay, and even when encumbered can have some situational use. If a player picks up to many miscellaneous items, don't let them pick up any more, but don't apply any affect to the player. Treat it like loot, that they have to ferry, but don't pointlessly immobilize them. If I have to run back to storage because I'm a walking, game braking fortress that's fine. If I have to run back because I'm carrying to much scrap metal and can no longer walk 2 feet or effectively fight and explore, that's bullshit. There's just too many different things with different uses in the game for all items to be limited by the same x pounds.
Fallot isn't designed with that in mind. If I'm over encumbered, it's almost always because I'm carrying to much worthless junk; it's not absolutely worthless (there will be a use for it eventually), but they don't affect my character/npcs or the way I play my game. In that case my choice is between making the game unplayable, wasting hours of my life fast traveling, or completely ignoring junk items. Ignoring thosejunk items until you need them seems like the right answer, but the items are so spread out and randomly allotted that when you do need them you won't be able to find any, and you'll likely still be left fast traveling bacl and forth to transport them. The game is designed around constantly picking up items, but has systems that punish you by wasting your time.
The simple solution is to give items that don't affect gameplay (weapons, status affecting items, clothing) and that aren't key items their own hard carry limit. If a player pick up to many riffles or wants to have a ton of heavy weapons, it makes sense to limit what they can carry because it's something that can affect gameplay, and even when encumbered can have some situational use. If a player picks up to many miscellaneous items, don't let them pick up any more, but don't apply any affect to the player. Treat it like loot, that they have to ferry, but don't pointlessly immobilize them. If I have to run back to storage because I'm a walking, game braking fortress that's fine. If I have to run back because I'm carrying to much scrap metal and can no longer walk 2 feet or effectively fight and explore, that's bullshit. There's just too many different things with different uses in the game for all items to be limited by the same x pounds.
Glass Shark
Banned
Good... you are starting to understand the futility of progression in games. Keep taking this path to its logical conclusion and you will be free of meaningless game systems forever.
Stallion Dan
Member
First of all, the first sentence isn't remotely true, large settlements require lots of resources unless you're just making a hack job of it and just placing a few random turrets, water pumps and beds anywhere.
Second, the rarer resources all happen to be on items that typically have heavy carry weights. Some resources are required for a lot of things yet are still rare, so you'll always be looking for that type in addition to other rare resources.
Plus when you need only 5-6 different resources at one moment but they mainly found on different items it just bloats the amount of items you need scavange for, which drains away your weight capacity. If a tin can could give oil, copper, fibreglass and screws it wouldn't be so much a problem.
Stallion Dan
Member
Dupe the "You're SPECIAL" book and max out strength.
I might try that. First I need to locate dog meat. Sent him home, and now I can't find him.
Dangoesforth
Member
Why not make the fusion core drain faster?
I've actually found the companion issue to not be as bad as other games in the past, because at least in FO4 you can tell them where to stand.Relevant:
razgriz417
Member
Wait what? This is a thing?
It's completely true when we're talking about the individual items themselves. Don't misconstrue what I said to fit "making a large settlement" - I'm talking about shit like the Industrial Water Pump.
I assume you're typically talking about mechanical and electronic items. Honestly, really, I only think you lot think they're "rare" because you spend your time picking up Everything Under The Sun. I don't have a problem finding them, they're usually in logical locations like offices and schools.
If you're reaching, like, max capacity if that's all you're looking for (while items that need said items really only need 1-3 of them at a tome) then it doesn't sound like constantly popping back to base after every mission or dungeon crawl - like even though I think they're easy to find there's still not enough of them in a single area to overemcumber you.
blankempathy
Member
The only consequence is time wasted having to run back and forth to unload whatever items you picked up. Its annoying and a time sink at worst. Hardly worth being called a "challenge". Its basically a grind. But instead of grinding levels you're sinking time into gaining materials for your settlements/upgrades. And I wouldn't mind the encumbrance If the game was smart perhaps you would be rewarded for going through the effort of building a settlement and gearing npcs by having the option to send in someone to salvage an area ala state of decay. You know, actually be rewarded for building up a settlement. Sadly we're stuck with an archaic system. Can't even salvage some armors without having to drop them. I bet some people find that challenging as well. Does fast travel also make the game less challenging as well? Its simply a matter of convenience.
I stopped playing Fallout New Vegas (again) for this. At some point i realised, that i'm not playing for the story or the characters, but just for the stuff i could find (and i only scavenged the useful items). This is also my main reason, what is holding me back from buying Fallout 4. I waited especially for this kind of critic point to be mention.
There is simply no game-mechanic, that justify the system in place. All it takes from you is time. Not planing, not skill and not actually management skills. All the perks and points into strength only make an annoying element a little less terrible. But still terrible enough to be boring. People, who throw realism in the discussion, are the worst. If the game would be more realistic, i could hire people, buy means of carriage or other methods, which would make my life easier. In a game where you run a settlement even more then before.
There two solutions for this problem from two different game:
1. Fallout 2
The develops of the first Fallout had a similar problem. You're characters would be on the move for "days" and could encounter random battles on the road. So you never actually want to store anything anywhere, since you properly wouldn't come back there for a long time. Even so Fallout throw out much less stuff at the player, he most of the time would simply sell everything and loss a variation of options. Until the merchants run out of money and you had to trade items for lighter ones.
The developers had a simple solution: a car (Mad Max style!).
The car gave the player a lot of storage space, but it only would spawn at the beginning of every map. So you didn't need run all the way back to town, but there was still a limitation, what you could bring into the dungeons. It made scavenging and transporting items easier without making the game too easy.
2. War of Mine
The game has a different angle. Encumbrance is one of the main enemies of the game. You only can send out your character to scavenge at night, on a time limit and with a harsh encumbrance limit. On your runs you need to make difficult decision, what items you want to keep or left behind. Since you can only return at the next day, this decision has actually consequences. Your people have to eat, need protection, expand there base or need heat every day. A wrong decision could damage you're group and create a downward spiral.
Even so the inventar system is similar to Fallout, in War of Mine your decisions actually matter and this makes the management part actually fun.
There is simply no game-mechanic, that justify the system in place. All it takes from you is time. Not planing, not skill and not actually management skills. All the perks and points into strength only make an annoying element a little less terrible. But still terrible enough to be boring. People, who throw realism in the discussion, are the worst. If the game would be more realistic, i could hire people, buy means of carriage or other methods, which would make my life easier. In a game where you run a settlement even more then before.
There two solutions for this problem from two different game:
1. Fallout 2
The develops of the first Fallout had a similar problem. You're characters would be on the move for "days" and could encounter random battles on the road. So you never actually want to store anything anywhere, since you properly wouldn't come back there for a long time. Even so Fallout throw out much less stuff at the player, he most of the time would simply sell everything and loss a variation of options. Until the merchants run out of money and you had to trade items for lighter ones.
The developers had a simple solution: a car (Mad Max style!).
The car gave the player a lot of storage space, but it only would spawn at the beginning of every map. So you didn't need run all the way back to town, but there was still a limitation, what you could bring into the dungeons. It made scavenging and transporting items easier without making the game too easy.
2. War of Mine
The game has a different angle. Encumbrance is one of the main enemies of the game. You only can send out your character to scavenge at night, on a time limit and with a harsh encumbrance limit. On your runs you need to make difficult decision, what items you want to keep or left behind. Since you can only return at the next day, this decision has actually consequences. Your people have to eat, need protection, expand there base or need heat every day. A wrong decision could damage you're group and create a downward spiral.
Even so the inventar system is similar to Fallout, in War of Mine your decisions actually matter and this makes the management part actually fun.
Shotgun Kiss
Member
Yeah, there's a glitch/exploit that lets you duplicate any item in the game, which includes the"You're Special!" books that increase one of your traits by 1.
Guide
A few things that this video doesn't make clear:
1) You have to pick up the book during the animation in which Dogmeat is bending down to pick it up. You'll get the timing down after a few attempts.
2) You'll know if you've done it successfully, as Dogmeat won't be holding the book in his mouth, yet will drop a copy in front of you. If he's holding it in his mouth, then you were too slow in picking it up.
3) After Dogmeat and you have both picked up the book, you need to go into your Pipboy and drop all copies of the book, then pick them all back up again. One of them will be the new duplicate, which will allow you to improve a trait when you pick it up.
4) You can do this trick with copies of the book that you've already collected, so you don't need to find a new one somewhere that you haven't found yet.
Think hard before doing this though, as it obviously affects the balancing of the game. I did it myself, but that's because I know I won't be playing through the game multiple times (I'm not sure I'll even find the time to finish the game 100%, unlike Fallout 3), nor will I be reaching level 200, or whatever it is I'd need to be in order to afford many of the perks I'd like to try out.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm fine with equipment having an upper limit that makes you do conscious choices on your loadout but all the junk is just bothersome.
It's not engaging having to Fast Travel all the time to offload some crap and then go back. So many loading screens.
Witcher 3 had the same issue and had no stash.
It's not engaging having to Fast Travel all the time to offload some crap and then go back. So many loading screens.
Witcher 3 had the same issue and had no stash.
What are you guys doing where you feel the encumberance is so limiting? There is junk all around but what's the point of making your weight ridiculous to pick it all up? At that point just going into the console and giving yourself whatever item is needed would probably be more effective.
Ulysses 31
Member
Cheating on first playthroughs diminishes my enjoyment.
Also my pride does not allow it.
Are you using the weight cheat? If so, what's the difference?
No, you're not forced to loot junk unless you are explicitly crafting things.
There are many character possibilities that don't involve the crafting perks at all. Not to mention, you can just pull weapon mods off weapons you can pick up.
And if you're looking for things to sell, pre-war money is one of the best sources of caps in the game and it has no weight...
There are many character possibilities that don't involve the crafting perks at all. Not to mention, you can just pull weapon mods off weapons you can pick up.
And if you're looking for things to sell, pre-war money is one of the best sources of caps in the game and it has no weight...
Also talking to people, who point fingers to others for hoarding stuff:
The main reason people collect everything are simple gaming habits. In every other game a collectable objects has a meaning. Since games have technical limits, we are taught, that everything interactive has some sort of important. In Bethesda games the possibility to collect anything, makes this notion into a time waster and negative experience. One important rule of design is, that it's always the responsibility of the designer and not (always) the user to find a solution for this kind of user problems. Or you have a bad designed feature (like in this case).
Games (or any kind of medium) doesn't exist in a vacuum and you as a designer should know your audience. So it's Bethesda move to find a way to challenge or change this behaviour. It's much much easier to find a clever solution for this specific problem of one game, then asking millions of players to change there overall gaming habits.
The main reason people collect everything are simple gaming habits. In every other game a collectable objects has a meaning. Since games have technical limits, we are taught, that everything interactive has some sort of important. In Bethesda games the possibility to collect anything, makes this notion into a time waster and negative experience. One important rule of design is, that it's always the responsibility of the designer and not (always) the user to find a solution for this kind of user problems. Or you have a bad designed feature (like in this case).
Games (or any kind of medium) doesn't exist in a vacuum and you as a designer should know your audience. So it's Bethesda move to find a way to challenge or change this behaviour. It's much much easier to find a clever solution for this specific problem of one game, then asking millions of players to change there overall gaming habits.
This is insane.
I can see where you are coming from, but anyone who regularly plays WRPGS should know about weight/value ratios and that they cant have everything. I always saw it as part of learning the game. Through FO3 and New Vegas I honed my view of what is or is not valuable, granted the rules have changed in FO4, but it just means learning what is worth collecting for that particular character.
For instance; If you have a house (in real life) of a particular size, with doorways and windows of a particular size, and you go into a furniture shop to look for a sofa it's on you to know what will or will not fit into your house right?
captainnapalm
Member
I'm not a big mod guy but I always go weightless in RPGs. Immediately. I'm finding in Fallout 4 I need at least 1500 to play the game. Anything less would mean I couldn't be thorough about clearing out locations.
It's even more necessary in Fallout 4 - everything is technically worth picking up. It's an inventory killer.
It's even more necessary in Fallout 4 - everything is technically worth picking up. It's an inventory killer.
Johan Liebert
Member
Edit: wrong thread
Haunted
Member
Not everyone plays games for the challenge, particularly content-rich, story driven games like Fallout 4. Content tourism is a real thing in games right now.
Agreed. I've yet to see anyone complain about equipment weight systems in games. They provide for different playstyles and meaningful choices while avoiding the shitty annoying inventory management most people in here take umbrage with.
Souls games :bow
kavanf1
Member
As has been said many times in this thread, what you did in 3 and NV cannot be fairly compared to 4, primarily because in previous games junk was almost worthless, whereas in 4, it all has value (if you are interested in the modding of weapons and armor or upgrading settlements, at least).
IMO Bethesda should have factored for the increased amounts of stuff people were likely to pick up in this game by giving a starting carry capability of 500, every STR being worth 50, and the other perks that boost carry capacity adding up to a total of 500 - giving a total carry capacity of 1500.
1500 might seem like a lot but it really isn't if you don't like spending half your gaming session looking at loading screens.
I think there are a lot of value principles that can be carried over from previous entries in fairness. Yes the new crafting systems have come in and changed a lot of the value propositions for items/junk, but in previous entries you had the option to carry around spare versions of the same gun or armour in order to repair them throughout the game. That has now been removed therefore introducing extra space for other items.
I can totally accept that to many Bethesda have not calculated the effect for some players, and options are always welcome. The fact that the Pack Rat Perk (any item that weighs 2 or under halves in weight) doesn't seem to be in this game is an oversight more than junk having weight in my opinion, as it would relieve some of the distress that players are experiencing when they are struggling to make choices about what to pick up.
I still believe that a lot of the encumbrance problems are the result of player choices rather than game design however, but I can totally see the reverse being true in some peoples opinions
kavanf1
Member
Indeed, it's two sides of the same coin, I suppose. Some people accept the rules the game has been designed around as infallible, and to play the game "properly" you should accept these rules. Others are unwilling to accept a game mechanic that forces you into doing something unenjoyable and of zero benefit to your character.
(On a side note, I think it would be interesting to see analysis regarding the opinions held about game modifications in comparison to the platform the person plays the game on. If I were a betting man I'd say there is strong correlation between PC gamers, for whom modding is relatively normal, being supportive of altering carry weight in Fallout 4. Likewise I would wager that the majority of people who are against the idea are console gamers. If that were the case, it would be really interesting to see what the most popular mods are once they release on console.)
I was at a friend's yesterday and I don't think he could have helped but be stuck in the menu screen for probably more than half the time I watched him play.
My reaction was the same as guy's friend in the OP. It was pretty boring and looked like too much work. He'd wonder around or go on a side quest picking up everything that wasn't bolted down. It was like i was watching a janitor simulator with the number of used ashtrays and empty bottles I saw him pick up. When he got too heavy he'd throw stuff on Dog Meat. When I'd see points of interest he wouldn't enter without returning to sanctuary to dick around in menus and bank all his junk.
He does have a habit of being too much of a completionist though so some of the boringness could just be his annoying ocd playstyle.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
I'm like 50 hours in and I think I might buckle and console command it too. I've been managing well enough, but last night I decided to switch from using a set outfit to a base with armor peices (mostly just for looks since my protection ended up almost the same) and my weight ended up sitting at 200/220. So I sat there depositing every weapon I usually carry (not many) except a few pistols and I was just like "what am I even doing." I don't want to carry everything in the game at once, but I'd like the QoL to be able to carry what I'd like to carry and not have to worry about going back to Sanctuary every few missions to deposit everything and switch around all my gear, especially with the horrendous sorting options. If saving myself from having to do that is dumbing the game down then I'll wear the dunce cap.
Ploid 3.0
Member
This gives me a good idea for a hardcore mobile game. Encumbrance Manager. Based on how you manage and free up space the AI rpg character will be more effective in the adventure before them. The AI will pick up random loot that could be junk, required for a quest, consumables, or awesome gear. Everything has weight, you can spec out your AI for fighting, stealth, or being a pack rat. Hmmm, maybe add in bathroom breaks, sleep, and hunger/thirst. Pay $.20 to have a surge of determination to skip those daily needs and power through. Pay $1 for the service of a lore friendly FedEX™ carrier, that can carry all of your extra stuff to mother base, for 5 uses.
Encumbrance isn't a realism thing. It's a risk/reward. Same as reloading a gun in a shooter. Sure you can get rid of reloading, or even the need for picking up ammo. But then you lose the element of risk, and the pay off isn't as rewarding. In the end leave it to the developer, or go play outside with your friend who seems to have these pressing concerns about item management in video games. C- article Eurogamer.
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