Don't remind me.
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Why was there backlash for DmC Dante? He was just as good.
- Thread starter ZombiePlatypus
- Start date
Don't remind me.
ShinMaruku
Member
Indeed but in this case I think his point is it's right where the developers should be.
I won't put them down that much but NT can be hit and miss.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I love Kat's introduction where Dante is fighting an invincible monster and then Kat throws a thing at its head and he's no longer invincible.
You don't need to break the science of it down, but if Lady had thrown a vase at an unbeatable monster and then Dante could fight it, people would have assumed for years something was cut or mistranslated.
You don't need to break the science of it down, but if Lady had thrown a vase at an unbeatable monster and then Dante could fight it, people would have assumed for years something was cut or mistranslated.
OnimaruXLR
Member
Since people keep bringing up the Slurm Queen, let's say that regular Devil May Cry is Futurama.
Then you have DmC. It's more like... Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
Now you can like ATHF a lot, and you can like Futurama a lot, and you can like both, but when you really wanna watch some Futurama you're gonna be annoyed if you get an episode of Aqua Teen instead.
It's a case of using an old IP to boost a pretty drastically new incarnation in a way that rubs a lot of classic fans the wrong way. New Tomb Raider is another example of this, albeit a less egregious one.
Then you have DmC. It's more like... Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
Now you can like ATHF a lot, and you can like Futurama a lot, and you can like both, but when you really wanna watch some Futurama you're gonna be annoyed if you get an episode of Aqua Teen instead.
It's a case of using an old IP to boost a pretty drastically new incarnation in a way that rubs a lot of classic fans the wrong way. New Tomb Raider is another example of this, albeit a less egregious one.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Capcom made some profit off of the sales, (people seem to really overestimate how expensive that game was relatively speaking) and NT is still working in the industry. If anything, Capcom is struggling much more than them since they can barely fund projects from some of their biggest series.
Again, taking scenes out of context and mistaking things for bad writing. That scene makes perfect sense in context with other tools and magic Kat does in the game. Like using a spray can to access Limbo at will or the egg timer to manipulate it's shape.
Demoskinos
Member
The entire sniper abortion is a very poignant moment. Its where Dante realizes exactly how radical his brothers ideals are. Its where the first seeds of discord are sown between them. Which erupts in the irreparable rift later on over Kat's life. Dusting it off as "edgy" is missing the entire subtext going on there.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Agreed---which is why it's doubly bad to change a great character to a god awful stereotype of himself and slap a Bieber cut on him.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
I don't recall ever saying that it was a good idea even to have it ripped out of her stomach.
In fact, if I recall, I literally JUST said that it was an awful plot point in general they should have avoided. Everything about it was awful.
And I don't care if the baby could have "probably blocked that shit" or not.
No matter which way you take "we have to kill this demon fetus" in the context DmC started it, it's going to be a mess. And it was.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I think at this point, if you think DmC dante is anything close to the original, you are being willfully blind or ignorant.
If you liked the new direction, fair enough, but to say Donte was the same as the original is the same as saying that Bayformers are the same as the original 80s versions. Hell, in that example there is at least one common voice actor.
PensivePen
Member
Saying that 'people hate change' is not really a valid sentiment when Dante in DMC 1, 2 and 3 are very different characters. Pretty much everyone hated it when they turned Dante into a statue in DMC2, but many liked his costume redesign. Some people loved it and some people hated it when DMC3 turned him into a ninja turtle with some character development in DMC3, and opinions are split further on his DMC4 incarnation when he made the complete transition into a full-on cartoon character.
Obviously people don't like change that doesn't suit their own tastes, and saying so doesn't really have any merit or value.
Obviously people don't like change that doesn't suit their own tastes, and saying so doesn't really have any merit or value.
dantevsninjas
Member
Original Dante had that too.
DmC Dante is my second favorite Dante right behind DMC4. I always liked the design since the reveal and it greatly improved by release. Ninja Theory also nailed the cocky and arrogant attitude I'd expect of the character without making him too annoying and obnoxious like DMC3.
However, I always thought making Ninja Theory do such a stark redesign was a terrible idea on Capcom's part. Changing the developer was already going to a hard sell, and then giving a him a drastic redesign on top of that just wasn't smart. It's like they wanted the backlash. I don't think the game deserved the absurd amount of toxicity it got, but the backlash was very understandable. And then all the PR comments, like the "feel of 60fps" and such, just made it worse.
It was a great game in the end, but it could have been handled so, so much better.
However, I always thought making Ninja Theory do such a stark redesign was a terrible idea on Capcom's part. Changing the developer was already going to a hard sell, and then giving a him a drastic redesign on top of that just wasn't smart. It's like they wanted the backlash. I don't think the game deserved the absurd amount of toxicity it got, but the backlash was very understandable. And then all the PR comments, like the "feel of 60fps" and such, just made it worse.
It was a great game in the end, but it could have been handled so, so much better.
/thread
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
In what way is Dante from 1-4 edgy?
Because the majority of fans clearly disagreed he was just as good. You're in the minority who thought it was just as good.
Myself I'm not huge on the series so I saw reboot as a way, way too try hard childish approach and the original as way too over the top in a different direction.
Myself I'm not huge on the series so I saw reboot as a way, way too try hard childish approach and the original as way too over the top in a different direction.
ShockingAlberto
Member
"It can be retroactively explained" is always the basis for good writing!
Zomba13
Member
I think the issue with the "fuck you. no fuck you." isn't that it isn't self away and silly, that it has to resort to edgy swearing. Like, yeah it's silly to have these two powerful characters resort to childishly swearing at each other but that just it, that is the joke. It's just them swearing at each other and it's not meant to be this deep nuanced thing, it's just two characters telling each other to fuck off repeatedly like children.
And it's meant to be silly and not serious and self aware, but I think it falls into the "edgy" category anyway because it relies on "fuck you". Ooooh we're edgy because when we're being silly and self aware we still swear like grown ups!
And it's meant to be silly and not serious and self aware, but I think it falls into the "edgy" category anyway because it relies on "fuck you". Ooooh we're edgy because when we're being silly and self aware we still swear like grown ups!
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Many people also dismiss the notion that Capcom made NT change the design even further throughout development when they originally had something that very much resembled a younger Dante, which probably would've gone over better with the fanbase despite looking completely out of place in the game outside of Limbo. They even admitted that they expected the game to get backlash.
If we're supposed to avoid "grown up" things what do you think about Dante having an entire monologue which was a metaphor about giving women orgasms starting with whipping it out and thrusting his cock in them with great force?
skLaFarebear
Member
DMC4 Dante > DMC1 Dante > Nocturne Dante > DMC3 Dante > DMC2 Dante > DmC Dante.
I was gonna say that DmC Dante was as good as DMC2 Dante, but then I remembered how sick his design was in 2/Nocturne. I do have a certain kind of love for DmC Dante though in the annoying shitty little brother kind of way.
I was gonna say that DmC Dante was as good as DMC2 Dante, but then I remembered how sick his design was in 2/Nocturne. I do have a certain kind of love for DmC Dante though in the annoying shitty little brother kind of way.
PensivePen
Member
I'm pretty sure Ninja Theory had nothing to do with that image. But it certainly was taken out of context in regards to the game for a long time. The first time I saw an actual explanation as to where it came from was in that thread where one of the people who worked on the game answered questions.
But yes, the general sentiment surrounding DmC from the early marketing was "this is the new DMC and we don't care if you nerds don't like it." Capcom never did anything to assuage fan concerns that DmC might be the new direction for the series if it did well, and I'm pretty sure that's because they were totally prepared to abandon the original DMC series and move forward with the reboot if it was a success.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
I wouldn't say it morphed into full on hatred until NT started insulting the fanbase and gaming journalists took their side and fanned the flames. Also homophobic shit like this:
didn't help.
An apparent ex-NT employee on here (I'll look for the post but I'm on mobile right now) claimed that this image is always taken out of context and was meant to show how Dante could fit in with cowboys.
Which I think was absolute bullshit because they used Brokeback Mountain for the cowboys.
Edit: here's the post.
HahaOf all the things...
"Ninja Theory" wasn't thinking anything with that. That's a slide from a presentation that Alex 'Talexi' Taini gave at GDC 2013 called "The Art Direction of DMC Devil May Cry" (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1017717/The-Art-Direction-of-DmC).
It's actually quite close to the start of the presentation and -- it seems to me that -- it was aimed as a little light humour in response to Capcom's question: "Imagine Dante in a western movie". It's worth a watch. Alex actually goes on to say he thinks Uncle Dante's look is cool, but wasn't what they -- or Capcom -- were after.
This is unfortunately one of those things though (like so many others) that got blown out of proportion. I think someone posted that exact image above and said something like "This is what Ninja Theory thinks of DMC4" and boom... it's suddenly fact.
I wouldn't say it morphed into full on hatred until NT started insulting the fanbase and gaming journalists took their side and fanned the flames. Also homophobic shit like this:
didn't help.
This is another objectively false accusation that's been explained multiple times before
Moon_frogger
Member
Because old Dante was tongue in cheek comedy and new Dante was totally intended to be taken seriously and was not played for laughs at all
/s
Really though, new Dante was a funny guy. Some of my favorite cheesy lines in a game ever. I mean, do people really think after the opening scene where he naked slow motion jumps through his trailer into his clothes that they were trying to go for a serious character here? Come on now.
/s
Really though, new Dante was a funny guy. Some of my favorite cheesy lines in a game ever. I mean, do people really think after the opening scene where he naked slow motion jumps through his trailer into his clothes that they were trying to go for a serious character here? Come on now.
Mass Effect
Member
That scene isn't any worse than the gameplay that precedes it. You're literally killing dozens of those things and destroying those same eggs while traversing the level (which, by the way, are mindless demons used intentionally as fodder).
And regarding the succubus scene, like I said, just because it's not serious and the developers were "in" on it doesn't make it any less "edgy," or more accurately, bad. I get that Dante was taunting and having fun with the situation, but the problem isn't Dante or his dialogue, it's the succubus. It's terrible. And yes, they were probably trying to make it sound as ridiculous and stupid as possible, and it's still awful. It's basically "look at how stupid and RIDICULOUS we're trying to make this scene!" and it just falls flat on its face.
And you know what? Now that I think about it, they made Vergil into a far worse character than Dante. Between the abortion and the "bigger dick" line, I'm far more annoyed with the way they portrayed him.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Also doesn't help that that picture gets taken out of context all the time, even when multiple devs have clarified the reason behind that picture.I wouldn't say it morphed into full on hatred until NT started insulting the fanbase and gaming journalists took their side and fanned the flames. Also homophobic shit like this:
didn't help.
So we're in agreement that it's ok for Dante to kill demons including their children, including playing soccer with them, and then very coldly shooting them as they grieve, (despite not being the one who did it in DmC in the first place but fuck context right?). But somehow it's not ok for DmC to be over the top. First it's too serious, now the scene is too over the top? Oh my lord.
ShinMaruku
Member
DMC Dante is a trickster protagonist who makes a dark world light by taking the piss out of everything. Damn if there was a cross over with Oneechanbara him and Kagura would have a hoot.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
This is the post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=193045869&postcount=148
Still though, regardless of their justification, the fact that they specifically used Brokeback Mountain as the punchline comes off as pretty homophobic. There is no real joke beyond "it's Dante in the gay cowboy movie lololol"
Okay guys, great news... We are making a new Bayonetta game! We are just calling it "B" this time around. Don't worry about Bayonetta being lame like she used to be, she now looks more like a sallow skinned, fauxhawk rocking, black leather jacket wearing Kim Deal. You heard right, guys; we fixed her! She also swears a lot, because she is an edgy rebel.
Now, I know some losers liked the old Bayonetta, but that is only because they don't understand what a cool character looks like. This is also probably all about how we took away her glasses. Sure, lots of people are specifically critiquing other aspects, but we will only comment on, and acknowledge, that one specific complaint, because that makes all the criticism look petty.
Look forward to "B", it's going to finally make Bayonetta cool!
Now, I know some losers liked the old Bayonetta, but that is only because they don't understand what a cool character looks like. This is also probably all about how we took away her glasses. Sure, lots of people are specifically critiquing other aspects, but we will only comment on, and acknowledge, that one specific complaint, because that makes all the criticism look petty.
Look forward to "B", it's going to finally make Bayonetta cool!
Son Of Sparda
Member
People still wonder why Dante's redesign had such huge backlash when DmC was announced?
Seriously?
Seriously?
MillionStabs
Banned
New Dante is made by a Western company who wanted to Westernize DmC to make it more approachable, in doing so they threw away the classic Japanese Dante character who would crack one liners, have a crazy action sequence whenever he got a new weapon, had a literal devil may care attitude.
Now we got "fuck you, no fuck you"
Now we got "fuck you, no fuck you"
JumpCancel
Banned
Regardless of Donte's entire story arch which most people are aware of, we're still allowed to dislike the character as a whole.
If you disliked him at the start, you're saying we have to force ourselves through the simplified combat system, shallow satirical storyline elements and poor writing so we get a character that's slightly more endearing? I had nothing to keep playing for personally. I didn't enjoy the game's individual elements or as a whole. Not just down to new Dante. It wasn't for me and I'd rather play DMC1/3/4 because I enjoyed them more.
It's even more amusing when you see the devs blatant disregard for series fans, then releasing a "definitive edition" which tweaks the game to play more like previous games.
If you disliked him at the start, you're saying we have to force ourselves through the simplified combat system, shallow satirical storyline elements and poor writing so we get a character that's slightly more endearing? I had nothing to keep playing for personally. I didn't enjoy the game's individual elements or as a whole. Not just down to new Dante. It wasn't for me and I'd rather play DMC1/3/4 because I enjoyed them more.
It's even more amusing when you see the devs blatant disregard for series fans, then releasing a "definitive edition" which tweaks the game to play more like previous games.
That sounds like an excuse. Part of a writer's job is to make sure there little to no misunderstandings in the product's writing and to make it as clear as possible. If the message fails to resonate, it's not the fault of the people playing the game, that's on the writer's hand. Additionally, you don't get points for "oh, it was meant to sound good in context."
PetulantChild
Banned
Because most people don't like playing as an edgelord whose only memorable dialogue is memorable because of how cringe inducing it is. Also him being attached to a bad game doesn't really help either.
Zomba13
Member
One is straight up "fuck you!" the other is "watch me (literally) dance around a sex metaphor". One tries to be clever and "subtle" in it's adult humour, the other is just saying the word fuck over and over.
Haunted
Member
Boy, it sure is easy to win conversations that only occur in one's head.
That's exactly what the new one does...
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
I dunno I think that's selling DmC DE's gameplay short then again I never played Shadow so I have no idea if that game had good gameplay at all!
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
-Capcom wanted NT to westernize it
-DmC while more grounded and not having as many scenes solely for action sequences, is very over the top
-DmC Dante cracks one liners
This is the sort of disengenous stuff that gets on my nerves. The sheer amount of either willful ignorance or preconceived notions about the devs.
A monologue about sex is what's considered subtle and clever now... (._.)
I assume NT put a lot more faith into the fanbase that was insulting them on a daily basis for three years than said fan base put in them.
direct_quote
Member
Wtf, none of those characters have any sort of good development. I'd take cheesy God hand over these terrible attempts at character development any day.
Zomba13
Member
Well yeah, they had to use gay cowboys. What? You'd think they'd use a Clint Eastwood picture to show a comparison with cowboys? People might think that Uncle Dante was cool then!
"subtle" in sneer quotes because it doesn't out right say it. In DmC it'd be Dante saying "And then I whip out my big pizza crust dick and slap it in your fucking cunt!"
I guess it's about as subtle as DmC's pizza dick.
Moon_frogger
Member
Lol there was no subtle humour in old Dante. The sexual innuendo in that game is about a grade 5 level. It's not some pinnacle of comedy. It's a guy backflip ping around making dick jokes constantly.
I think you may want to replay the games if you think they are in any way subtle or adult.