Support NeoGAF

[SomTervo]

Hmmm... I really don't want it to look like a nicely laid out combat area with waist high walls everywhere. I just want to it look like a convincing, realistic space and then just work with what's there. It's one of the things I really appreciated about the game actually: that it didn't suffer from waist-high wall syndrome.

I'm certainly not saying they should all have waist-high walls. And only the first game really suffers from that.

Here's the video I made above of my fav fight from Uncharted 2. There are some waist-high walls, but mainly it's larger objects (which may or may not have wast-high outcrops).

There isn't a single fight in Uncharted 3 which matches that tier of level design. It looks natural, it gives the enemies as many opportunities as you, and it creates a gameplay sandbox. As I say in that video, 3 things happened there that I had never seen before. In Uncharted 3, I never see anything new. It's still a great game, but not for its combat gameplay, which is far more restrictive and sometimes poorly designed.

Edit: more specifically, you can clamber over, through and around the large bits of cover, you can climb on/hide behind the medium-sized cover, and you can hide behind the small cover. So can the enemies. And line of sight is intelligently blocked by all of these, so that enemies can lose you and sneak about and you can lose enemies and sneak about. Only one or two fights in Uncharted 3 offer these sorts of spaces where you can lose enemies, clamber about, and have dynamic encounters. They are the norm in Uncharted 2 - even on the train level which is very limited in actual volume.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I'm certainly not saying they should all have waist-high walls. And only the first game really suffers from that.

Here's the video I made above of my fav fight from Uncharted 2. There are some waist-high walls, but mainly it's larger objects (which may or may not have wast-high outcrops).

There isn't a single fight in Uncharted 3 which matches that tier of level design. It looks natural, it gives the enemies as many opportunities as you, and it creates a gameplay sandbox. As I say in that video, 3 things happened there that I had never seen before. In Uncharted 3, I never see anything new. It's still a great game, but not for its combat gameplay, which is far more restrictive and sometimes poorly designed.

Knew it was gonna be the blizzard fight. So good.

But c'mon, breh, ship graveyard is amazing. Little to no standard cover, floating platforms to move between that are arranged in a manner where all can be flanked, water phsyics affecting aiming, diving from vertical platforms looking into water that you can swim under to avoid bullets, a couple of turrets that force creative movement and threat prioritization. It's so good, and I'd say that's something that's definitely new.

 

[SomTervo]

Knew it was gonna be the blizzard fight. So good.

But c'mon, breh, ship graveyard is amazing. Little to no standard cover, floating platforms to move between that are arranged in a manner where all can be flanked, water phsyics affecting aiming, diving from vertical platforms looking into water that you can swim under to avoid bullets, a couple of turrets that force creative movement and threat prioritization. It's so good, and I'd say that's something that's definitely new.

It is very good! Very good indeed. It's not very 'tight' - I think the swimming could have been better, but it's still a quality combat sandbox. Its biggest shortcoming is that it's hard to lose enemies again once you've been spotted.

However, I think Uncharted 3 generally nails the immersion of being an Indy Jones/James Bond character more than the other games. The context for all the situations is better. The situations themselves are just not quite at the same quality of design (and some are flat-out bad), but it's just as fun in a lot of ways because it gets you in the moment so much.

I think the later fights with the demons cancels out how great the ship-yard fight is.

 

[Fancy Clown]

It is very good! Very good indeed. It's not very 'tight' - I think the swimming could have been better, but it's still a quality combat sandbox. Its biggest shortcoming is that it's hard to lose enemies again once you've been spotted.

However, I think Uncharted 3 generally nails the immersion of being an Indy Jones/James Bond character more than the other games. The context for all the situations is better. The situations themselves are just not quite at the same quality of design (and some are flat-out bad), but it's just as fun in a lot of ways because it gets you in the moment so much.

I think the later fights with the demons cancels out how great the ship-yard fight is.

Yeah, diving always felt like my copy was glitched or something because you can't swim down and the amount of time you stay under feels arbitrary (like you can't stay under until the screen grays out as you start to drown). But once I got a handle on it it adds a nice wrinkle to the fight.

I didn't really have a problem with the demon fights. They're definitely not well designed or particularly fun fights, but the fact that each of the arenas is absolutely littered with power weapons made them not a big deal. I also like their designs a lot better than the smurf hulk guardians in 2 as well.

 

[arevin01]

You just posted videos on what's wrong with Uncharted's combat. Its not exciting in any way, Drakes movements are awkward, enemies seem to appear out of nowhere in endless waves, nothing tatical about any enemy other than being a sponge, guns don't seem to be very powerful.

 

[pj]

Yeah, it's really annoying.

In classic GAF fashion, though, 99% of the haters showed up for the first two pages to fire shots then disappeared once the discussion/polemics actually started.

The title of this thread is legit confusing to me, how about it gets changed to something more reasonable.

Uncharted is a legit passable TPS (mechanics, encounters, level design)

You can say it until the sun burns out but you will never convince me that the enemies in Uncharted 1-3 are not bullet sponges. I played the games when they first came out, before "combat sucks because it's just waves of bullet sponge enemies" was the go to dismissal of the series. Maybe the reason so many people say it is because it's true.

 

[Fancy Clown]

The title of this thread is legit confusing to me, how about it gets changed to something more reasonable.

Uncharted is a legit passable TPS (mechanics, encounters, level design)

You can say it until the sun burns out but you will never convince me that the enemies in Uncharted 1-3 are not bullet sponges. I played the games when they first came out, before "combat sucks because it's just waves of bullet sponge enemies" was the go to dismissal of the series. Maybe the reason so many people say it is because it's true.

The title is a reflection of my opinion, that I then reason out with examples and evidence in the OP, I'm sorry if that confuses you. Can you explain how the enemies are bullet sponges? Do they take more bullets to kill than games you don't consider to have bullet sponges? If so, what are these games? Or more importantly, should all games have enemies with universal health constraints never to be exceeded, even if that puts them at odds with the game's specific design philosophy? For example, Resident Evil 4, the enemies are inarguably bullet sponges compared to basically any other shooter out there, yet for myself and many others it's the best TPS ever, and the health values of the enemies are in service to its design. Yet nobody calls out RE4 simply for having bullet sponges. But to reiterate, I don't believe the standard enemies in Uncharted are bullet sponges, they go down like nothing.

 

[Haganeren]

Played Uncharted 1, really didn't liked the TPS experience but everything was said.
Began Uncharted 2, the museum sequence was a little better i guess but i don't know, i really don't like how Nathan Drake is controlled.

On this game, only the story and the character have importance for me...

 

[Magic Mushroom]

You just posted videos on what's wrong with Uncharted's combat. Its not exciting in any way, Drakes movements are awkward, enemies seem to appear out of nowhere in endless waves, nothing tatical about any enemy other than being a sponge, guns don't seem to be very powerful.

Weird. I think few characters match Drake's moveset, enemies have pretty good AI for the genre and UC2 and 3 have very little wave design and you can play through most combat scenarios in multiple ways.
And I will never, ever get the bullet sponge complaints. Headshots, power weapons and grenades one shot almost anything in these games.

 

[pj]

The title is a reflection of my opinion, that I then reason out with examples and evidence in the OP, I'm sorry if that confuses you. Can you explain how the enemies are bullet sponges? Do they take more bullets to kill than games you don't consider to have bullet sponges? If so, what are these games? Or more importantly, should all games have enemies with universal health constraints never to be exceeded, even if that puts them at odds with the game's specific design philosophy? For example, Resident Evil 4, the enemies are inarguably bullet sponges compared to basically any other shooter out there, yet for myself and many others it's the best TPS ever, and the health values of the enemies are in service to its design. Yet nobody calls out RE4 simply for having bullet sponges. But to reiterate, I don't believe the standard enemies in Uncharted are bullet sponges, they go down like nothing.

It's a combination of things that make them feel like bullet sponges. I haven't played the games in a few years now but from what I remember, the normal weapons feel like pea shooters. There's too many enemies in many encounters. There's too many heavy enemies.

They are bullet sponges because they feel like they should be dying quicker than they do. They throw a COD number of enemies at you with a Halo TTK. It doesn't make the game better, it makes it longer and more annoying.

Maybe it's my own fault for playing on hard. Your videos in the OP look like more fun that what I remember when I played. Could you do those sequences again on hard and post the videos? I bet you'll be doing a lot more stop and pop with guns that can't guarantee a headshot at the distances you'll be using them.

RE4's enemies are also bullet sponges, but they are appear in much lower numbers, move slower, and generally aren't shooting back at you. Those factors make them less annoying and allow you to take your time setting up shots that often result in extremely satisfying kills. Kills on heavier enemies in UC are more like "ugh, finally" than "fuck yeah"

 

[Fancy Clown]

It's a combination of things that make them feel like bullet sponges. I haven't played the games in a few years now but from what I remember, the normal weapons feel like pea shooters. There's too many enemies in many encounters. There's too many heavy enemies.

They are bullet sponges because they feel like they should be dying quicker than they do. They throw a COD number of enemies at you with a Halo TTK. It doesn't make the game better, it makes it longer and more annoying.

Maybe it's my own fault for playing on hard. Your videos in the OP look like more fun that what I remember when I played. Could you do those sequences again on hard and post the videos? I bet you'll be doing a lot more stop and pop with guns that can't guarantee a headshot at the distances you'll be using them.

RE4's enemies are also bullet sponges, but they are appear in much lower numbers, move slower, and generally aren't shooting back at you. Those factors make them less annoying and allow you to take your time setting up shots that often result in extremely satisfying kills. Kills on heavier enemies in UC are more like "ugh, finally" than "fuck yeah"

I think part of the issue is more weapon sounds and perhaps feedback issue than TTK (for normal enemies) that is making people think they are bullet spongie, since it's definitely not Halo levels (not for standard enemies anyway). The normal guys drop in a quick burst of fire I think, 4 or 5 body shots (I think it looks like more for the assault rifles because they're pretty inaccurate) . Armored guys are definitely bullet sponges, but I think they're balanced out by the fact that they move slow and are generally equipped with close range shotguns, so they are there in small numbers to add some tension to the firefight where you have to take them out before they reach you, or keep moving. So I think their function in the game validates their TTK. The larger scale arena fights go on longer than some games, but that's something I like about them because the level, encounter design, and mechanics all facilitate a dynamic battle that lets you take advantage of the whole play space, rather than be forced into repetition.

Yeah, I'll replay that section on hard and post a video sometime soonish (I've been wanting to do this anyway, because I think the encounter might be remixed on hard in addition to damage values being tweaked). I actually beat all three remastered games on hard and I moved around like that a fair bit, but you will certainly have to be more cautious and probably spend a little more time in cover. I just replayed those encounters on normal for fun afterwards.

 

[SomTervo]

The title of this thread is legit confusing to me, how about it gets changed to something more reasonable.

Uncharted is a legit passable TPS (mechanics, encounters, level design)

You can say it until the sun burns out but you will never convince me that the enemies in Uncharted 1-3 are not bullet sponges. I played the games when they first came out, before "combat sucks because it's just waves of bullet sponge enemies" was the go to dismissal of the series. Maybe the reason so many people say it is because it's true.

If you shoot enemies in the head, they die in one shot.

Always.

How is that bullet sponge?

Sorry, but "you're playing it wrong" has to be invoked. The only enemies that aren't one-shot headshot are armoured (two shots) or heavily armoured (lots of shots, and for good reason).

Edit: and as others have said, you often have power weapons and explosives at your disposal, and these are typically one-shot or two-shots The only time Uncharted enemies are bullet sponges is if you use automatic weapons and constantly body-shot.

 

[dLMN8R]

If you shoot enemies in the head, they die in one shot.

Always.

How is that bullet sponge?

Sorry, but "you're playing it wrong" has to be invoked. The only enemies that aren't one-shot headshot are armoured (two shots) or heavily armoured (lots of shots, and for good reason).

Edit: and as others have said, you often have power weapons and explosives at your disposal, and these are typically one-shot or two-shots The only time Uncharted enemies are bullet sponges is if you use automatic weapons and constantly body-shot.

Except for when they have helmets...or hats....or heavy armor....or.....

 

[paragonpro]

I like tomb raider and rise of the tomb raider more than uc 1 and 3, they are on par with uc 2 in terms of quality imo. But you have to be high to think tomb raider has better combat than uc 2 or 3

 

[Muffdraul]

I remember the first time I played Uncharted. "Huh. So as far as the combat goes it's basically Gears of War with all of the adrenaline and fun sucked out of it."

 

[Fancy Clown]

Except for when they have helmets...or hats....or heavy armor....or.....

So like 1 out of every 15 or 20 enemies, yeah. Like all games there are certain enemy types that can take more punishment. And dudes with helmets take 1 more shot to kill than regular guys, if you choose to go for the head.

 

[SomTervo]

Except for when they have helmets...or hats....or heavy armor....or.....

Come on, man.

1. Helmets. 2. Heavy armour (... because of a helmet).

That's it. Every other enemy in the game, probably 9/10 of them = OHKO by headshot.

You're not even going to reply. There's no point. Just a drive-by bullshit post.

 

[Rembrandt]

Weird. I think few characters match Drake's moveset, enemies have pretty good AI for the genre and UC2 and 3 have very little wave design and you can play through most combat scenarios in multiple ways.
And I will never, ever get the bullet sponge complaints. Headshots, power weapons and grenades one shot almost anything in these games.

If you shoot enemies in the head, they die in one shot.

Always.

How is that bullet sponge?

Sorry, but "you're playing it wrong" has to be invoked. The only enemies that aren't one-shot headshot are armoured (two shots) or heavily armoured (lots of shots, and for good reason).

Edit: and as others have said, you often have power weapons and explosives at your disposal, and these are typically one-shot or two-shots The only time Uncharted enemies are bullet sponges is if you use automatic weapons and constantly body-shot.

this is really the defense for people saying enemies are bullet sponges?

the last sentence of the second quote is exactly why people say enemies are bullet sponges because that's the definition of it. you proved their point.

implying people are playing the game wrong because they're not using heavy weapons, grenades and headshotting every enemy is why UC isn't a great TPS. You shouldn't be restricted to using the most overpowered weapons to play the game right. the terrible reactions to being shot in comparison to actual great TPS makes it even worse and gives off the bullet sponge impression even more.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

edit: lol, I can't believe Rembrandt just made basically the same post ^^^^^

I didn't really have a problem with the demon fights. They're definitely not well designed or particularly fun fights, but the fact that each of the arenas is absolutely littered with power weapons made them not a big deal. I also like their designs a lot better than the smurf hulk guardians in 2 as well.

This is such a cop out for all of Uncharted 3's issues though. So many solutions come down to "find the power weapons" and "get headshots"

Oh enemies don't react? Headshots, dude
Oh armored enemies? Find the grenade launchers, brother
Oh terrible spawns? Don't worry brahh, there's a TAU over there
Oh crappy demon enemies with teleportation moves? Power weapons be everywhere, bruh, don't worry be happy

The biggest sin the game commits is that it generally feels awful to use your standard pistol and AK. This is the hang up in the never ending UC2/UC3 discussion that I simply cannot get past. Even if the pacing and encounter design were better than UC2 (which, by and large, they aren't, not by a long shot), the game would still be held back by it's gunplay, more than UC2 ever was.

 

[Fancy Clown]

This is such a cop out for all of Uncharted 3's issues though. So many solutions come down to "find the power weapons" and "get headshots"

Oh enemies don't react? Headshots, dude
Oh armored enemies? Find the grenade launchers, brother
Oh terrible spawns? Don't worry brahh, there's a TAU over there
Oh crappy demon enemies with teleportation moves? Power weapons be everywhere, bruh, don't worry be happy

The biggest sin the game commits is that it generally feels awful to use your standard pistol and AK. This is the hang up in the never ending UC2/UC3 discussion that I simply cannot get past. Even if the pacing and encounter design were better than UC2 (which, by and large, they aren't, not by a long shot), the game would still be held back by it's gunplay, more than UC2 ever was.

Not what I'm saying, my man. I don't think the demon fights are good, but they're a benign, non-frustrating type of bad, as opposed to the sandstorm, cruise ship ballroom, or syria type of bad. It's two short encounters where they load you up with 1-hit kill weapons, and then you're done, quick and painless. I saw it as mostly an improvement over the Guardians in 2 that tank your damage until you kill one to get a crossbow.

Also, haven't been using the other arguments either. I don't think the pistol and AK feel bad to use, but I understand people who do. Armored enemies are fine however you choose to deal with them, they are there to get you to move out of cover, power weapons just kill them faster. Any way to play is viable, power weapons and headshots just do the job quicker, as they do in any other game.

My issue is the constant complaint that all the enemies are bullet sponges, and it's one I can't abide.

Here's my gif of lighting up the medium armored enemy (the lighter guys go down even quicker) with the lower tier assault rifle all body shots, which is slowest way to kill and enemy in the game. I just don't see how that's a bullet sponge. Literally allowing myself to be driven mad by all the bullet sponge complaints.

Edit: I guess you're talking about the differences between Uncharted 2 and 3? lol yeah, I mean 3 just isn't designed as well no question about it. Still dig it for the most part though, the considerable highs outweigh the considerable lows.

 

[SomTervo]

this is really the defense for people saying enemies are bullet sponges?

the last sentence of the second quote is exactly why people say enemies are bullet sponges because that's the definition of it. you proved their point.

implying people are playing the game wrong because they're not using heavy weapons, grenades and headshotting every enemy is why UC isn't a great TPS. You shouldn't be restricted to using the most overpowered weapons to play the game right. the terrible reactions to being shot in comparison to actual great TPS makes it even worse and gives off the bullet sponge impression even more.

Not at all, mate. I didn't prove their point.

Enemies with helmets make up probably 1/10 of the enemies, maybe less. I neglected to say that in my post, I guess that's the only error I made.

I also never said the player is "restricted to" power weapons or headshots. You put words in my mouth.When I play Uncharted 2, I punch enemies, stealth kill enemies, grenade enemies, and when the opportunity is right, headshot or hipfire enemies. And the gameplay is an amazing combo of running, jumping, climbing, dodging, flanking, hiding, etc - that's why the gameplay is great.

My post was specifically addressing the 'bullet sponge' argument, which is a load of crap. Go play Gears of War. Unless you're using a power weapon, every enemy takes at least two or three headshots. Much more than Uncharted. Gears' alone is far more bullet spongey than UC, but other things are at play to make up for it.

Here's a video of me playing, killing tens of enemies. Please point out a time when an enemy is a bullet sponge. I can think of one time, and it's a heavily armoured enemy (who are designed to pressure you into more movement).

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Not what I'm saying man. I said I don't think the demon fights are good, they're just not a frustrating part of the game. It's two short encounters where they load you up with 1-hit kill weapons, and then you're done. I saw it as mostly an improvement over the Guardians in 2 that tank your damage until you kill one to get a crossbow.

Also, haven't been using the other arguments either. I don't think the pistol and AK feel bad to use, but I understand people who do. Armored enemies are fine however you choose to deal with them, they are there to get you to move out of cover, power weapons just kill them faster. Any way to play is viable, power weapons and headshots just do the job quicker as they do in any other game.

My issue is the constant complaint that all the enemies are bullet sponges.

Here's my gif of lighting up the medium armored enemy (the lighter guys go down even quicker) with the lower tier assault rifle all body shots, which is slowest way to kill and enemy in the game. I just don't see how that's a bullet sponge.
http://i.giphy.com/tqyf7KA0N71pm.gif[

Edit: I guess you're talking about the differences between Uncharted 2 and 3? lol yeah, I mean 3 just isn't designed as well no question about it. Still dig it for the most part though, the highs outweigh the lows.

First I just want to make it clear that I think the "bullet sponge" stuff is misguided so I don't really get into that side of it. Of the thousands of enemies in the UC trilogy, like 5% of them, probably less, are actual sponges. Doesn't mean I enjoy facing those enemies, but they aren't a big enough part of the games to color the entire experience. There's a difference between lack of hit reactions (mostly isolated to UC3) and damage sponges (enemies who take a ton of hits to kill).

Secondly, I didn't want to lay all of that at your feet, your post is simply the one I happened to quote. And yeah, I'm talking about UC3. Uncharted 2, as your gif shows, is much better about this. I just see that "get power weapons/headshots" stance a lot in these threads, and I feel like that's a cop out for the weak feedback you get from standard weapons, and a total shift from the way UC2 was designed (aside from the Guardians which everyone agrees are terrible). Yes any method is viable in UC3, but the game pushes power weapons on the player more than 2, and the weak gunplay inadvertently pushes that balance even further off-center. It never feels right to me.

IMO, Uncharted combat shines against smart, mobile, reactive enemies, and goes to hell once they introduce heavies without normal stagger animations that harm the flow. They should be pushing for more movement (player and enemy) and physics based reactions (or at least animation based reactions that give way to ragdoll). This is why I think the UC4 PSX section, if it actually plays like that, is the best encounter I've seen in UC. No nonsense, no poor enemy spawns, no artificially beefed up enemies holding the player up. Just fast detail and feedback heavy gunplay mixed with cat & mouse stealth.

 

[GnawtyDog]

First I just want to make it clear that I think the "bullet sponge" stuff is misguided so I don't really get into that side of it. Of the thousands of enemies in the UC trilogy, like 5% of them, probably less, are actual sponges. Doesn't mean I enjoy facing those enemies, but they aren't a big enough part of the games to color the entire experience. There's a difference between lack of hit reactions (mostly isolated to UC3) and damage sponges (enemies who take a ton of hits to kill).

Secondly, I didn't want to lay all of that at your feet, your post is simply the one I happened to quote. And yeah, I'm talking about UC3. Uncharted 2, as your gif shows, is much better about this. I just see that "get power weapons/headshots" stance a lot in these threads, and I feel like that's a cop out for the weak feedback you get from standard weapons, and a total shift from the way UC2 was designed (aside from the Guardians which everyone agrees are terrible). Yes any method is viable in UC3, but the game pushes power weapons on the player more than 2, and the weak gunplay inadvertently pushes that balance even further off-center. It never feels right to me.

IMO, Uncharted combat shines against smart, mobile, reactive enemies, and goes to hell once they introduce heavies without normal stagger animations that harm the flow. They should be pushing for more movement (player and enemy) and physics based reactions (or at least animation based reactions that give way to ragdoll). This is why I think the UC4 PSX section, if it actually plays like that, is the best encounter I've seen in UC. No nonsense, no poor enemy spawns, no artificially beefed up enemies holding the player up. Just fast detail and feedback heavy gunplay mixed with cat & mouse stealth.

There are stagger animations for heavies. They do not harm the "flow" of the heavies (I assume you mean behavior) since they're usually carrying a shotgun and their role is to rush you (get into striking distance of shotgun range), walking ever so slowly as to allow the player have a headstart in planning the approach to them. Heavies do take more bullets than normal for a down kill because you have to remove either chestpiece (vest) and/or headpiece (helmet) first before downing them. Removing the helmet makes the head unprotected, but not the body. Likewise, removing the vest alone leaves the chest area unprotected, not the head.

Often times heavies are not alone but as a part of a group - they are hardly ever isolated. In many encounters sometimes you get to remove their helmet but by the time you reload they're close enough that you waste bullets hitting them at their body while panicking (failing to actually take advantage of the earlier progress). So that's a lot of bullets down the drain and the heavy is still not dead. Add to that scenario multiple enemies that are also locked on you, (snipers, melee rushers, normal grunts etc) making your life difficult to get around/poke your head out of cover to shoot + the heavy recoil of weapons like the AK (and weapons in general in UC - that make you miss significantly if not controlled with care) and that's why the heavies most of the time become a somewhat bothersome experience that leads people to make the claims they do (bullet sponges et al). In a crowded environment, heavies are a pain to focus on and players must be disciplined in their approach. Your average player is probably not, specially coming off FPS like COD, Halo or games with main weapons that have little-to-no recoil comparatively (a great number of them).

That's also why when UC veterans are asked you get the responses that heavies can be done this way and that way without issue all the while your average player complains. Veterans have played long enough to understand some of this on a subconscious level because they have replayed the game long enough to know basic rules like how many bullets it takes to take down a heavy etc. Trial and error teaches you the importance of being disciplined and sticking to a plan etc. To an average folk that does one or two playthroughs with the game and is done - for that type of folk (the overwhelming majority of the people that play Uncharted) it's hard to come to grasp with that in just one or two sittings - at least the (close to)optimal way. So it's no surprise to see why there are rifts between the experience of veterans and the average folk.

There is no better playground to get to know Uncharted combat inside-out vs. NPC's than online CO-OP. It's the ultimate crash-course for this. Very few people play it and sadly the campaign changes too much from level to level to matter in teaching discipline (encounters are too varied and the flow changes a lot as the story goes). In online CO-OP there is consistency in encounters. Most of the time it's an open arena where players face-off vs. waves of enemies. Some are objective based but it's the same concept of achieving your objective while fending off or defeating waves of enemies of varying difficulty.

 

[Fancy Clown]

First I just want to make it clear that I think the "bullet sponge" stuff is misguided so I don't really get into that side of it. Of the thousands of enemies in the UC trilogy, like 5% of them, probably less, are actual sponges. Doesn't mean I enjoy facing those enemies, but they aren't a big enough part of the games to color the entire experience. There's a difference between lack of hit reactions (mostly isolated to UC3) and damage sponges (enemies who take a ton of hits to kill).

Secondly, I didn't want to lay all of that at your feet, your post is simply the one I happened to quote. And yeah, I'm talking about UC3. Uncharted 2, as your gif shows, is much better about this. I just see that "get power weapons/headshots" stance a lot in these threads, and I feel like that's a cop out for the weak feedback you get from standard weapons, and a total shift from the way UC2 was designed (aside from the Guardians which everyone agrees are terrible). Yes any method is viable in UC3, but the game pushes power weapons on the player more than 2, and the weak gunplay inadvertently pushes that balance even further off-center. It never feels right to me.

IMO, Uncharted combat shines against smart, mobile, reactive enemies, and goes to hell once they introduce heavies without normal stagger animations that harm the flow. They should be pushing for more movement (player and enemy) and physics based reactions (or at least animation based reactions that give way to ragdoll). This is why I think the UC4 PSX section, if it actually plays like that, is the best encounter I've seen in UC. No nonsense, no poor enemy spawns, no artificially beefed up enemies holding the player up. Just fast detail and feedback heavy gunplay mixed with cat & mouse stealth.

Word, I see where you're coming from. I dunno, I like the dynamic of the heavies (again mostly in Uncharted 2). They are terminator like badasses that add an element of tension to the fights as they inch closer to you, and its satisfying when you kill it juuuust before it comes within OHK range (like when in the blizzard arena, seeing the snow kick in and then three of these dudes come out after you kill everyone else was a very cool moment), but by and large the combat should definitely be mostly against smart mobile enemies.

I agree the PSX encounter looks like the best of the series, far and away. Not much cover but so many mobility options and paths and stealth. They seem to be especially pushing the mobility of the enemies a lot more, saying they have a lot of the same traversal abilities as Drake --which is a necessity given what that arena looks like. I'm curious to see how they handle enemy types though, if they're gonna bring back armored enemies, or change them, or what. Always felt the series could use a couple more types, but I'm not sure what else they can do with the human enemies.

 

[Eidjinn]

I read the original thread and... actually, I think OP is right!

But I was on the side that thought Tomb Raider 2013 gameplay was way better than Uncharted games.

It made me realise something: while on the Uncharted games I always felt underpowered and under pressure, in Tomb Raider, I always thought I was the one in control and overpowered.

And that feeling of power is what made me think it was more fun. Also, the fact that I could actually use a bow that was very similar to Rambo's bow made me have even more fun. I loved to level up that bow and see, even if it was just a "mod", that thing turning into a badass bow.

One thing that I noted too was how much more fun and better the gunplay in the Remasters are. But I don't think the secret is any tweaking in the gameplay, but actually the secret is the PS4 controller. It's much more acurate, meaning: that waddle (is that the correct word?) that the enemies in Uncharted games have/had, and irritated me so much, now are actually very cool.

I always had the feeling that that step to the right and left was unfair, because I could not aim right. But with the ps4 controller... I don't have that feeling that they go to a "dead zone" in the controller, so things are much more fair. They try to dodge, but my aiming with the controller can compensate that.

For some reason, I think the fight in the jungle in Uncharted 2 or 3 was freaking unfair, exactly because of that dodge to a "dead zone". It bothered me so much that I actually took down 2 or 3 waves of enemies by using only melee.

But the only part I really felt the gameplay was really unfair was in a (sorry if I don't remember the exact spot) small bridge, and at the end of the bridge there was a staircase. I thought it was unfair because you are on one side, and on the other side comes a man with a shield and a shotgun, and it seems there's no way around him. After you actually discover a way to go past him, as you go up the stairs, another dude with shotgun and shield comes. Dang.

But pretty good, OP! I liked this analisys a lot!

 

[GnawtyDog]

I read the original thread and... actually, I think OP is right!

But I was on the side that thought Tomb Raider 2013 gameplay was way better than Uncharted games.

It made me realise something: while on the Uncharted games I always felt underpowered and under pressure, in Tomb Raider, I always thought I was the one in control and overpowered.

And that feeling of power is what made me think it was more fun. Also, the fact that I could actually use a bow that was very similar to Rambo's bow made me have even more fun. I loved to level up that bow and see, even if it was just a "mod", that thing turning into a badass bow.

One thing that I noted too was how much more fun and better the gunplay in the Remasters are. But I don't think the secret is any tweaking in the gameplay, but actually the secret is the PS4 controller. It's much more acurate, meaning: that waddle (is that the correct word?) that the enemies in Uncharted games have/had, and irritated me so much, now are actually very cool.

I always had the feeling that that step to the right and left was unfair, because I could not aim right. But with the ps4 controller... I don't have that feeling that they go to a "dead zone" in the controller, so things are much more fair. They try to dodge, but my aiming with the controller can compensate that.

For some reason, I think the fight in the jungle in Uncharted 2 or 3 was freaking unfair, exactly because of that dodge to a "dead zone". It bothered me so much that I actually took down 2 or 3 waves of enemies by using only melee.

But the only part I really felt the gameplay was really unfair was in a (sorry if I don't remember the exact spot) small bridge, and at the end of the bridge there was a staircase. I thought it was unfair because you are on one side, and on the other side comes a man with a shield and a shotgun, and it seems there's no way around him. After you actually discover a way to go past him, as you go up the stairs, another dude with shotgun and shield comes. Dang.

But pretty good, OP! I liked this analisys a lot!

My man..

 

[dlauv]

I don't know. I have the same problem with it that I do with Last of Us, in that it's really loose feeling when aiming -- it never feels tight enough no matter the sensitivity. It's not as snappy as Gears, Halo, or even Fallout 4. After that, it's fairly by the numbers. I'm thinking it's possibly the PS3 controller's fault, but I enjoyed Shadows of the Damned just fine. That's another shooter that does shooting better than Uncharted.

The argument of movement being unique and beneficial to gameplay would be more of a point if movement were more important. As it is, you can just sit back and line up headshots behind cover, not too much unlike GTA. Grenades and enemy flanking do make you move, but it isn't particularly unique movement. If the game were more about shooting while climbing and doing platforming it would be more of a point and really cement Uncharted as having a unique style when it comes to gunplay. As it is, movement for the sake of movement is just risk with no reward beyond impressing yourself or your bestest friend.

 

[Keihart]

I wanted to record the whole arena but it got cut a 9 minutes, maybe it was my discspace but whatever. here is some gameplay on crushing that i think show how important is to constanly move and verticality on uncharted 3.

https://youtu.be/3wFTbGnMENw

Once i get to an arena with less water, i'll record again to show off more melee moves. My biggest complain in uncharted are hit reactions and that enemies are not consistent in going back to stealth mode, both seems to be adressed in 4 so i'm super hyped, but i LOVE the core mechanics of this game, i truly feel like playing with some young John Mclain in an Indiana Jones movie or something.

Editt: I love the .9 mm handgun and hipfire

The argument of movement being unique and beneficial to gameplay would be more of a point if movement were more important.

But it is, i think my video proves it.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I wanted to record the whole arena but it got cut a 9 minutes, maybe it was my discspace but whatever. here is some gameplay on crushing that i think show how important is to constanly move and verticality on uncharted 3.

https://youtu.be/3wFTbGnMENw

I love the tiny little gunfight after you climb up out of the water area. It's a small, fairly unremarkable encounter in the scheme of things, but it's great example of how the game uses level and encounter design to make you move around tactically in what otherwise would be a "just stay behind one piece of cover", especially since visually it's just a small box filled with waist high cover. But the hole in the wall to the left with the shield guy, the guy above you, and the armored guy at the back all turn the area into a really well designed little play space where you're constantly running around, hopping over metal beams, and swapping cover points.

It's less flashy and less obvious in how it forces you to move around and take advantage of the level than the preceding fight, but it's really effective in its own right.

 

[Synth]

IBut it is, i think my video proves it.

Does it though?

I mean, I've never played Uncharted 3 at all, but Fancy Clown made a video making full use of UC2's mechanics, but that was a case of him choosing to, rather than it being something that was important for him to do. Many, including him, have stated in this thread that Crushing actually inhibits movement, whilst you'd be more mobile on lower difficulties. Now this may not be entirely true, but at the same time it does suggest that these players are in fact still being successful under that difficulty, whilst not employing the full range of movement options that you're demonstrating.

So whilst your video illustrates an ability to use these mechanics, I'm not so sure it demonstrates the importance of them.

 

[Shang]

Having just played through the trilogy for the first time via the Drake Collection, I think I can safely say that 3 was the point where it finally got good. Drake's Fortune was dog rough gutter trash in terms of gameplay. Grueling, unending waves of resilient enemies on samey battlefields for pretty much the entire game. Among Thieves steps it up quite a bit, but is, in my opinion, pretty average. Shooting feels better, and there's more variety in combat and encounter length. There are some cool ideas, like the train levels, but they never quite click like they should.

Drake's Deception, however, is when Uncharted finally finds its groove as a third person shooter. The combat is more polished and varied, and there are a lot more, more fleshed out levels than there were in 2. I finally felt free to change my playstyle on the fly, moving between fisticuffs, snipers, and grenade launchers in less than a minute. My favorite change, though, is the way combat blends with the platform sections. Transitions between fighting and climbing are far less noticeable and jarring, making the whole experience much more enjoyable.

but hey that's just my two cents hyuck hyuck

 

[Synth]

My favorite change, though, is the way combat blends with the platform sections. Transitions between fighting and climbing are far less noticeable and jarring, making the whole experience much more enjoyable.

Aw shit... that sounds like it's addressing one of the main issues I have with the two games I've played.

I wasn't gonna bother with UC3 after finding UC2 pretty ho-hum outside of a few interesting set-pieces (and most people saying it's as good as the series gets)... but that's sounding like the pacing could be a lot better.

 

[R_thanatos]

People have said that crushing actually hinder movement and limit possibilities but i will say that for me it's the exact opposite.
Playing on normal or hard i just don't move that much.crushing is the mode where i can use all the tools to move/fight and it's without a doubt the mode where i'm moving the most.

This is even better in UC3 because in crushing you can really move around ( UC2 had times like this too ) and exploit the game .

 

[Fancy Clown]

Does it though?

I think it definitely does. Sure there are levels in the games where you can just hide behind cover and kill anyone (although I still say that is a dull, time consuming, and potentially more difficult way to play), but the level he showcased is one where it's pretty impossible to win without moving around. There's little to no cover (the boxes at the beginning break under fire), enemies in 3 are a lot more agressive and can flank you from any platform, a sniper is on one of the boats and those enemies necessitare movement, theres a turret bearing down on you, etc.

That level in particular was one a lot of people hated because they found it too difficult even on normal, because it really forces you to be mobile at all times.

 

[SomTervo]

Does it though?

I mean, I've never played Uncharted 3 at all, but Fancy Clown made a video making full use of UC2's mechanics, but that was a case of him choosing to, rather than it being something that was important for him to do. Many, including him, have stated in this thread that Crushing actually inhibits movement, whilst you'd be more mobile on lower difficulties. Now this may not be entirely true, but at the same time it does suggest that these players are in fact still being successful under that difficulty, whilst not employing the full range of movement options that you're demonstrating.

In Uncharted 2 at least, the bolded is completely false. Enemies flank you, heavy enemies press straight into you, and grenades frequently land right on your head.

Crushing difficulty (in UC2) forces you to be more mobile than ever to stay one step ahead of your foes. It's near-perfect.

 

[foolishoptimist]

In Uncharted 2 at least, the bolded is completely false. Enemies flank you, heavy enemies press straight into you, and grenades frequently land right on your head.

Crushing difficulty (in UC2) forces you to be more mobile than ever to stay one step ahead of your foes. It's near-perfect.

It's correct that the enemies flanking you forces you to move, but you have to stick to cover far more. You can't be running and gunning in line of site of half a dozen enemies(like in the gameplay video), you won't last.

IMO, the difficulty scaling doesn't is badly done. Simply adjusting the amount of health the player and enemies have without any consideration to the impact they have on each encounter leads to situations like this.

 

[Fancy Clown]

So I'm vindicated now, right?

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/ta42DdH.gif

 

[Loris146]

So I'm vindicated now, right?

Level design / Encounter design is top notch in this game. Rope is fucking amazing and extremely useful during combat.

 

[Ratrat]

Thats on easy right? I noticed there's a trophy for headshots on a rope. Its not worth the risk on hard and I cant imagine trying it on crushing.

 

[RipperGrim]

So I'm vindicated now, right?

UC4's combat was leaps and bounds better than the previous games and you were referring to the previous games at the start of the thread so..... maybe?

I really enjoyed the more open level design and more options given to you, you could even successful sneak past some encounters without raising any alarms.

 

[nillah]

Between UC4's simple but effective combat to Metal Gear Solid's more in your face CQC

we've had some really good combat systems this gen.

 

[Ivan 3414]

UC4 stepped it up in the gameplay department (from what I've played) but it makes the old UC's gameplay look even worse

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

So I'm vindicated now, right?

But he's dead in that second gif. It looks cool and all until you're dead

 

[JayWood2010]

Combat is solid, not great. When i encountered enemies i just wanted to get by them as quickly as possible because other aspects of Uncharted are far superior. Ive played better third person shooter games, Gears of War at the top. On the other hand I have Uncharted at the top of Action/Adventure games and story telling.

With that said its without a doubt one of the best games Ive ever played regardless of its TPS mechanics.. What Uncharted does is bring all of its elements together with finesse and artistic prowess.

 

[Fancy Clown]

But he's dead in that second gif. It looks cool and all until you're dead

That's cuz he stopped moving for dramatic effect. You can do shit like that and not be dead

Edit: I was looking at the wrong one. He ain't dead man, he can just jump off the rope at the end or swing away

 

[Exploratory]

Lol absolutely not. When you have issues as basic as getting into cover you really cant make this claim.

 

[SomTervo]

Yes you are, clown.

Spoiler

IMO you always were, but hey.

But he's dead in that second gif. It looks cool and all until you're dead

Not quite.

Could be he hits O right after the last frame and drops down to safety.

Done it many a time myself and made it, even on Crushing. Uncharted on high difficulties all becomes about timing your bombastic moves perfectly

Lol absolutely not. When you have issues as basic as getting into cover you really cant make this claim.

Never had the issue and I don't remember reading about it in the 10+ reviews I read.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Lol absolutely not. When you have issues as basic as getting into cover you really cant make this claim.

But I don't have issues as basic as getting into cover lol

Spoiler

IMO you always were, but hey.

I was but some people will never see the light

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

Lol absolutely not. When you have issues as basic as getting into cover you really cant make this claim.

Huh?

 

[Exploratory]

Huh?

I mean ask around I've seen the complaint. Compared to TLoU where you just stick to cover Uncharted has a problem with rolling when near cover instead of just sticking to it.

And overall Uncharted has good gunplay mechanics but not great. Anyone who has played Gears of War or especially MGSV knows what a truly tight TPS experience is.