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[GnawtyDog]

How are those gifs unrepresentative, Max Payne 3 has much better weapon feedback and mechanics (bullet time/diving) than Uncharted's gameplay and scoring a headshot in Gears is more satisfying than anything in Uncharted. Level design is also tighter in those than Uncharted plus MP3 does cinematic pacing much better than any of the Uncharted games.

Post a gif of a FAL or G-MAL in Uncharted, since you know recoil in the games you mention is practically non-existent - straight line afair. Hec I'm willing to bet you'll be hard pressed to find weapons in those games with much more recoil than a FAL in Uncharted. And hopefully shotguns are not cited cause obviously that'll be a joke.

In the MP3 gif there is practically 0 kick. In Uncharted, even if you use the comparable Arm-Micro, the kick is big on full auto to the point where you have to constantly readjust on the spot. If you're not used to it you'll spray all over the place.

I applaud the tactic employed to trash the game but it only works for the uninitiated so to speak.

As for the bold, care to define such beautiful term?

 

[BlitzKeeg]

I played all the Uncharted games within the past year and I couldn't help but notice how boring the non-setpiece moments were, especially the stop and pop combat. I figured it was just because I was bad at games in general and was doing a poor job of staying behind cover. I also died a whole bunch forcing me to replay the same encounters over and over.

After watching those gameplay videos it turns out I am bad at video games because I never moved around that much playing these games and it is clearly rewarded. I always kept crouching behind cover and doing the same crap over and over after each death without doing anything new, so no wonder I found it boring.

I plan to buy the Uncharted Collection PS4 in the coming weeks, so I'm going to give 2 another run with this play style and see how I do. I have a feeling it's going to go way better and be far more fun.

 

[Revven]

I plan to buy the Uncharted Collection PS4 in the coming weeks, so I'm going to give 2 another run with this play style and see how I do. I have a feeling it's going to go way better and be far more fun.

It will be, especially as you become more familiar with the combat arenas.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Also Tomb Raider's melee game is far better, with actually reasonable attack lengths that don't feel like they're initiating a cutscene, and a far superior dodge/counter implementation.

Which one are we talking about here? TR2013 or TR2015?

Cause walking straight up to an enemy to engage in melee and getting pushed back =/ superior melee. You literally have to weaken normal grunts with bullets before you even attempt melee - now that's a joke. There is literally no freedom to engage in melee at free-will. A single button press (triangle PS3/4 if I recall) feels like a QTE to me (which is practically the only way to engage in melee in TR13). But before I elaborate even more a distinction is obviously important since I haven't played TR15, and I don't know if they have improved on such poor melee implementation.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I played all the Uncharted games within the past year and I couldn't help but notice how boring the non-setpiece moments were, especially the stop and pop combat. I figured it was just because I was bad at games in general and was doing a poor job of staying behind cover. I also died a whole bunch forcing me to replay the same encounters over and over.

After watching those gameplay videos it turns out I am bad at video games because I never moved around that much playing these games and it is clearly rewarded. I always kept crouching behind cover and doing the same crap over and over after each death without doing anything new, so no wonder I found it boring.

I plan to buy the Uncharted Collection PS4 in the coming weeks, so I'm going to give 2 another run with this play style and see how I do. I have a feeling it's going to go way better and be far more fun.

Thank you for looking at the OP before posting <3

 

[SomTervo]

OK, so here's the video I made.

It's definitely not ideal but it was my first take, and I didn't want to lose the whole night doing another. I'm mainly stealthing a lot of the Train Wreck fight then gusto-ing the beginning of Siege in Tibet.

Hopefully this shows people, to some extent, how well movement works as a dynamic strategy in the games. You can lose enemies, be found again, pop shots, lose them, ambush them, etc. All while clambering/jumping about. It's what makes the games great imo - and is only truly realised in Uncharted 2.

Edit: pretty classic walk off cliff death 1/3rd in.

I played all the Uncharted games within the past year and I couldn't help but notice how boring the non-setpiece moments were, especially the stop and pop combat. I figured it was just because I was bad at games in general and was doing a poor job of staying behind cover. I also died a whole bunch forcing me to replay the same encounters over and over.

After watching those gameplay videos it turns out I am bad at video games because I never moved around that much playing these games and it is clearly rewarded. I always kept crouching behind cover and doing the same crap over and over after each death without doing anything new, so no wonder I found it boring.

I plan to buy the Uncharted Collection PS4 in the coming weeks, so I'm going to give 2 another run with this play style and see how I do. I have a feeling it's going to go way better and be far more fun.

Haha, yeah, great to see someone actually taking shit on board! So many people are driving by and sticking to their behind-cover guns.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

What does you leaping on something I had posted with ferverous glee to try to clown me without actually reading or understanding why I posted it in the first place, have to do with me asking you a simple question in a discussion about the game which the topic is about?
.

because you responded to me?

10 bullets to kill max, sure. If you're using an automatic weapon and only getting body shots, and even then 10 bullets from an automatic gun (which are the weakest weapons in Uncharted) takes all of 2 seconds, something you can clearly see in my videos, which is why I asked if you had watched them. 10 automatic bullets to kill an enemy describes 90% of other shooters out there that don't get constantly shit on for erroneously being full of bullet sponges. If he had said 4 pistol bullets to kill at most to kill a regular enemy would you still be crying bullet sponge? Because that's how many it takes.

No it doesn't.

 

[GnawtyDog]

OK, so here's the video I made.

It's definitely not ideal but it was my first take, and I didn't want to lose the whole night doing another. I'm mainly stealthing a lot of the Train Wreck fight then gusto-ing the beginning of Siege in Tibet.

Hopefully this shows people, to some extent, how well movement works as a dynamic strategy in the games. You can lose enemies, be found again, pop shots, lose them, ambush them, etc. All while clambering/jumping about. It's what makes the games great imo - and is only truly realised in Uncharted 2.



Haha, yeah, great to see someone actually taking shit on board! So many people are driving by and sticking to their behind-cover guns.

There are arena's in U3 that allow this too. And MP on both is basically this on steroids (minus the stealth )

 

[SomTervo]

There are arena's in U3 that allow this too. And MP on both is basically this on steroids (minus the stealth )

Nowhere near as many though! And they aren't quite as good (though they're still good).

Yeah Uncharted 2 vanilla multiplayer was perfect because it wasn't on steroids. It was just the best running/gunning/climbing/ambushing gameplay of the singleplayer, with 10 people instead. The updates fluffed that. And Uncharted 3 had good multiplayer made horrific by loads of 'kickbacks' and 'boosters' and all this cartoony, insane shit.

Looking forward to Uncharted 4's multiplayer, hopefully bring it back down to movement and shooting... Supernatural tools and teleporting sidekicks notwithstanding.

 

[Fancy Clown]

because you responded to me?

Again, I think you need to reread what I wrote, and then what you wrote.

No it doesn't.

Well, that does it, you've convinced me

 

[n0razi]

TLoU yes, Uncharted not so much

 

[SomTervo]

Why do people like Tomb Raider's combat? It's like a hybrid of Uncharted and Last of Us but without any of the things that make either of them fun. You sit behind cover and gun down cannon fodder that with your ridiculously overpowered arsenal in cramped combat arenas that don't allow for any flanking (by you or against you) or make use of any of the traversal abilities. It's not bad, the hit reactions are good as are the weapon sounds, it's just incredibly dull.

God, I wrote a whole response and lost it.

There were moments where TR2013's combat legitimately captured this amazing, rushey scrappy survival. Like when you dodge a guy's blow, throw dust in his face, slice him to death, and roll into cover just as his pal emerges firing shots at you. Those were great moments, but so rare.

And the shooting is just plain bad. So bad. No kickback, watery reactions, super-accuracy making it feel like an arcade game. Hilarious considering the people ITT complaining about Uncharted's shooting being bad.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

That train section is one of my fave sequences as well, I nailed it in one go on Crushing when I replayed it in the UC Collection. Took out the first wave entirely by stealth, then climbed up to the train car with the grenade launcher on top of it and rained death from above. It's a really cool little sandbox in which you can have a ton of fun.

PSX demo of 4 is basically that with more options and bigger playgrounds. It's gonna rock so hard.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Again, I think you need to reread what I wrote, and then what you wrote.



Well, that does it, you've convinced me

you said 90% of shooters. that's just not true.

also pretty sure, I posted about that dude basically describing bullet sponges, then you responding to me like "OMG U CALL THIS BULLET SPONGE!?!"

 

[BlitzKeeg]

Thank you for looking at the OP before posting <3

No problem! I found it really in depth and interesting. Also, I didn't read much of the rest of the thread, but it seems like a lot of other people were having the same problem I did. I liked the explanation someone made of health just being another resource you have to manage. At first it seems like you should never be taking damage, but there is a real reason that health liberally regens.

Haha, yeah, great to see someone actually taking shit on board! So many people are driving by and sticking to their behind-cover guns.

I'll be the first to admit I'm bad at games, especially with shooters since I only started playing them about a year ago, haha!

I feel like this is something that applies to a lot of other games with emergent gameplay. It's easy to stick with the same tactic over and over when it seems to work, but in the end the fun comes from trying something new. Boy did Far Cry 3 get boring once I realized the dominant strategy is to just snipe everyone. I'll start trying this sort of dynamic thinking with every game now.

 

[Revven]

OK, so here's the video I made.

It's definitely not ideal but it was my first take, and I didn't want to lose the whole night doing another. I'm mainly stealthing a lot of the Train Wreck fight then gusto-ing the beginning of Siege in Tibet.

Hopefully this shows people, to some extent, how well movement works as a dynamic strategy in the games. You can lose enemies, be found again, pop shots, lose them, ambush them, etc. All while clambering/jumping about. It's what makes the games great imo - and is only truly realised in Uncharted 2.

Edit: pretty classic walk off cliff death 1/3rd in.

Really like this video tbh as that arena itself is extremely good as you demonstrated. Even if you died a few times it was on Crushing so every small mistake matters but it shows moving around is rewarded and is definitely a better way to play the game when you can "lose" the enemies like you did there. Now of course, that isn't the case all the time in UC2 -- there are times where when you get caught everyone knows your exact location but it depends on the arena, how much room you have to lose them and so on.

I really liked how you demonstrated that on the armored guys as well. All around a good showcase even if a good chunk of it is stealth kills but they're not the typical kind like the first part of that particular arena (where the enemies have a patrol route and haven't found you yet).

As I said the other day I'd upload another thing from UC3 since it was during my Crushing playthrough -- it's all freeform for the most part, only the first bit is planned but if you skip to about... 6:27 in the video down below (where the infamous ballroom of the cruise ship begins) you'll see how much I'm moving around in an enclosed space in one part of that arena to take out the armored guys and a bunch of the weaker goons with close-ranged weapons. I could've gone past the area I put myself in but that would have been extremely risky on Crushing so I stayed where I was and moved around in that vicinity but not sitting behind cover. Just watch how much I move and how it could have gone south if I stayed behind cover for too long.

Here (I don't know how to link timestamps specifically because youtube changed the code for it recently... if anyone can tell me I can edit the link so it skips to the portion I'm talking about).

Ignoring hit reactions and all that other garbage related to gun-feel that particular moment I saved/linked is why Uncharted is so good as a TPS. I felt ridiculously satisfied after surviving all of that the way I did. I didn't die once on one of the hardest combat arenas in UC3 -- I restarted to reset the guy who saw me but that was it! No deaths, first try on Crushing. Just so good.

The video above isn't the best example of using the entire arena because this was when I was playing on Crushing and plus I wasn't doing that expecting to show anyone -- I just did it and saved it because it was pretty good and I decided to upload it as it partially applies to this thread.

 

[Gbraga]

OK, so here's the video I made.

It's definitely not ideal but it was my first take, and I didn't want to lose the whole night doing another. I'm mainly stealthing a lot of the Train Wreck fight then gusto-ing the beginning of Siege in Tibet.

Hopefully this shows people, to some extent, how well movement works as a dynamic strategy in the games. You can lose enemies, be found again, pop shots, lose them, ambush them, etc. All while clambering/jumping about. It's what makes the games great imo - and is only truly realised in Uncharted 2.

Edit: pretty classic walk off cliff death 1/3rd in.



Haha, yeah, great to see someone actually taking shit on board! So many people are driving by and sticking to their behind-cover guns.

Not a super big stealth fan, so unfortunately it ended to me when it was getting really fun! But it was still very interesting to watch, it's always fun to see games being played in a way different than mine.

Thanks for the vid! And stop pressing square!

 

[Zxrophantom]

I agree with the OP never understood the hate uncharted gets when it comes to combat. Sure some enemies can takes some shots but I find few TPS offer the range of variety in movement and level traversal in combat. The bullet soaking enemies happen quite often in many TPS, so I don't know why uncharted get a bad rap for it. Uncharted one made the mistake of having shirtless enemies feel tanky when being shot but they corrected that in 2 and 3.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Couldn't disagree with the op more. The game seems to funnel you into these arenas where enemies start coming in outta nowhere endlessly like clowns out of a clown car. Plus the fact that they are all bullet sponges unless you are good enough to constantly get head shots. The enemies aim is too good too. They could land a grenade on top of a needle. And it also has one of my biggest pet peeves in gaming. Enemies that can kill you in one hit (the ones with rocket launchers).

 

[Fancy Clown]

you said 90% of shooters. that's just not true.

also pretty sure, I posted about that dude basically describing bullet sponges, then you responding to me like "OMG U CALL THIS BULLET SPONGE!?!"

&#128077;

 

[Mman235]

Stuff like this just happens constantly in these games and it leaves the combat segments feeling cheap and poorly done:

These gifs just remind of how much jank Uncharted 3 has. A base problem I have with threads like this is how they lump the games together. To me the difference between Uncharted 2 and the other Uncharteds is like what people seem to see with Dark Souls 2 vs the other Souls games (that I don't, which kind of fits with people who seemingly lump all the Uncharteds together), except the opposite direction in terms of quality. When it comes to the actual game design I find every single aspect (well okay, Uncharted 2 has the shittiest melee outside of steel fist) of Uncharted 2 on a whole other level compared to the rest of the series.

To the bold: Absolutely, which is why all the changes and steps back in UC3's design, which a lot of people somehow consider minor, have bothered me from day 1. UC2's not perfect- the gunplay needs more punch, combat in last 3 chapters is not great, the puzzles are pretty basic- but the pacing and design for those first 23 chapters outweighs a lot of its issues in ways that UC3 can't. Plus UC3 has way more combat related issues than just weak gunplay. Without TLOU I might consider UC2 a fluke, honestly (at least among ND's "realistic" game output).

So this basically. I'm still slightly reserved on Uncharted 4 even if they've said/shown all the right things so far. Because between the reversions in Uncharted 3 and destroying Uncharted 2's multiplayer I'm still not 100% convinced that they get what's so good about their own series when it's firing on all cylinders.

 

[Fancy Clown]

These gifs just remind of how much jank Uncharted 3 has. A base problem I have with threads like this is how they lump the games together. To me the difference between Uncharted 2 and the other Uncharteds is like what people seem to see with Dark Souls 2 vs the other Souls games (that I don't, which kind of fits with people who seemingly lump all the Uncharteds together), except the opposite direction in terms of quality. When it comes to the actual game design I find every single aspect (well okay, Uncharted 2 has the shittiest melee outside of steel fist) of Uncharted 2 on a whole other level compared to the rest of the series.


So this basically. I'm still slightly reserved on Uncharted 4 even if they've said/shown all the right things so far. Because between the reversions in Uncharted 3 and destroying Uncharted 2's multiplayer I'm still not 100% convinced that they get what's so good about their own series when it's firing on all cylinders.

I acknowledge the difference between 2&3 in the OP though, and Uncharted 2 is definitely better (although I do like 3 still, including some of the changes it makes). I just didn't want to make a thread about that, because then it would just revolve around comparing the two games.

I don't know that you should have reservations for Uncharted 4 based on 3. It had a different game director. Bruce Straley, who directed 2, is back for 4. I think they're probably aware of what people don't like about 3 by now as well.

No problem! I found it really in depth and interesting. Also, I didn't read much of the rest of the thread, but it seems like a lot of other people were having the same problem I did. I liked the explanation someone made of health just being another resource you have to manage. At first it seems like you should never be taking damage, but there is a real reason that health liberally regens.

Yeah it's one of few AAA games that has the mechanics and design to back up and really capitalize on the decision to use health regen.

 

[R_thanatos]

Couldn't disagree with the op more. The game seems to funnel you into these arenas where enemies start coming in outta nowhere endlessly like clowns out of a clown car. Plus the fact that they are all bullet sponges unless you are good enough to constantly get head shots. The enemies aim is too good too. They could land a grenade on top of a needle. And it also has one of my biggest pet peeves in gaming. Enemies that can kill you in one hit (the ones with rocket launchers).

"That" term again ..

it's like an urban rumor at this point lol

 

[Fancy Clown]

They could land a grenade on top of a needle. And it also has one of my biggest pet peeves in gaming. Enemies that can kill you in one hit (the ones with rocket launchers).

Not even gonna touch on the endless waves or bullet sponge comments since I've already done that countless times in this thread.

Grenades are meant to move you out of cover to force mobility, that wouldn't work if they land 15 feet to your left. They also make it easy for you to shoot them when they're throwing them, giving sound cues and a long wind up animation so you can get a lot of kills by making them drop their own grenades. A direct hit with a rocket launcher is a one hit kill, as it should be. They force threat prioritization adding tension to the combat zone, but they are obviously placed (never in cover) and because you're so mobile and the rockets are slow enough and easy enough to see you can get out of kill range pretty easily and take them down.

 

[Synth]

Which one are we talking about here? TR2013 or TR2015?

Cause walking straight up to an enemy to engage in melee and getting pushed back =/ superior melee. You literally have to weaken normal grunts with bullets before you even attempt melee - now that's a joke. There is literally no freedom to engage in melee at free-will. A single button press (triangle PS3/4 if I recall) feels like a QTE to me (which is practically the only way to engage in melee in TR13). But before I elaborate even more a distinction is obviously important since I haven't played TR15, and I don't know if they have improved on such poor melee implementation.

Elaborate away, I'm referring to either (even tho RoTR is world better than TR2013 in this regards, for a multitude of reasons).

The melee in TR2013 isn't a very strong tool in and of itself (it's pretty powerful in the sequel), but it works well to get an enemy out of your face and stunned allowing you to follow up with gunfire... that's of course separate to the dodge countering which I also class as melee. I don't understand how you compare it to a QTE though (especially compared to Uncharted)... a standard strike simply swings the axe and immediately returns control to the player... unlike UC2 where landing a punch transitions you directly into some horrible "fight mode" like I'm back playing NHL '94. I should actually clarify that I'm speaking specifically about UC2 here. This is actually one (possibly the only) area that I felt UC1 was superior. Melee in that game was incredibly simple, and basically only ever amounted to hitting Triangle-Square-Triangle, but it was at least harmless and quickly over with... in UC2 your character and the enemy practically look like they're dancing with each other for what feels like an eternity, with you having no control over Drake until it's over. It's absolutely horrible, and I'm struggling to think of many games I'd rate as low as it in this area.

The bullet soaking enemies happen quite often in many TPS, so I don't know why uncharted get a bad rap for it.

Honestly, I think it's simply the quantity of them. Plenty of games have enemies that take a good few rounds to drop, but then the game lets them go off on their way... whilst Uncharted has a habit of simply filling the room back up with another (slightly more annoying) set. Someone in a different thread mentioned how Drake often voices exactly what they're thinking whilst playing... and in some cases this is definitely true.

"Where are they all coming from?"
"There's just no end to them!"

etc.

If there weren't so many wave based encounters, I doubt there'd be anywhere near the same number of complaints about the enemies themselves. But when you just want to get to the next actual exciting area of the game, and instead it drops a load more enemies, but this time a bunch of them have armor, and helmets, and riot shield, and fucking rocket launchers... you start to internally demand that everything just die immediately, and get annoyed when they don't.

 

[Ocarina_117]

Just watched your vids OP - they do help to better convey your points.

What's shown is possible in a lot of games however - turn down the difficulty and you're afforded the opportunity to be a lot more mobile and take risks in your play style as you can take more damage and in turn the enemies deal/take less. Thus allowing the level design to be appreciated more. When I played through the Uncharted series it was on the hard setting but I do see how the encounters can be more enjoyable by turning down the difficulty.

However I feel for it to be regarded as great mechanics, level design and encounters - what you've shown needs to also be possible on the higher difficulties of the game. Take vanquish for example, may be a bad example, but you'll be powersliding and making full use of the mechanics no matter what difficulty the game is played on. Resident Evil 4, the village segment in particular, you'll be making full use of the buildings, doors, ladders etc no matter the difficulty also. This is due to intentional design, where as I feel uncharted was designed to be a more standard third person shooter affair, imo.

I do look forward to replaying the series with your play style though; although I may give the final game a miss. I may need to replay it to fully appreciate your argument also.

Edit: By final game I mean Uncharted 3 (of the remaster on PS4) - Will definitely be checking out 4.

 

[Revven]

However I feel for it to be regarded as great mechanics, level design and encounters - what you've shown needs to also be possible on the higher difficulties of the game.

What he's shown does work on Hard, though. The highest difficulty, Crushing, it's also possible but it's incredibly risky and because Drake is essentially made of glass it's generally less of a good idea in arenas with tons of guys around to run around because stray bullets can easily clip you and kill you and it's completely out of your control because the amount of health you have doesn't give you enough time to react accordingly -- you just die.

I linked a Crushing video earlier showing that it's possible to stay out of cover and be mobile but it's ridiculously risky because you could die from people not even in your camera's peripheral vision and I almost did die from someone off-camera. So on something like Crushing it depends on how well you know the arena, knowing when to stay in cover and go out of cover, and weighing on whether it's worth it or not to do so. And often times, it can go either way or... it can be completely RNG because the AI can start shooting a full round into you relentlessly giving you no chance to roll away and thus you die.

Basically, it stops being the intended design at the Crushing difficulty. Hard the intent is still there. But Crushing curbs a lot of it just based on how the arenas are designed for Drake having more health than he has on Crushing but slightly less than Normal as well. In other words, Crushing is beatable but not 100% of the time using the intended mobile design Naughty Dog's arenas are designed around.

In addition, most of the people who complain about Uncharted's combat play the game once and it's on Normal so that's another reason why it's all focused on Normal difficulty (especially also because again Normal is the default intended way ND expects players to experience the game their first time through and how the combat arenas are primarily balanced and designed around that health range first and foremost with Hard as secondary and Crushing clearly as dead last).

 

[QaaQer]

RoTR is a different matter entirely. Combat is used more sparingly than before in general... but the game also offers so many legitimately effective options for dealing with almost every fight, that most my encounters seem to end without the enemy even exchanging fire. It almost feels more like a Metal Gear Solid game than Uncharted based on my current playthrough. Having come to straight off Uncharted 2, it's night and day... but also arguably as much a stealth game as it is a TPS.

Sounds fantastic. Still not buying an x1 for it.

 

[Synth]

Sounds fantastic. Still not buying an x1 for it.

Luckily, you won't need to. It'll still be fantastic when it hits other platforms.

 

[Game4life]

TR13 is one of the worst shooters on the planet. It is mechanically competent but its level and encounter design is so bad that it does not even deserve a mention. It is by far one of the worst games I had the misfortune of playing and showcases a developer not competent to develop a unique identity for themselves but rather make a third rate copy of a far better , more critically acclaimed and popular product.

I am not sure but if the sequel corrects it in any way but it from the preview videos it looks like the same generic crap and apparently with worse aiming.

 

[Synth]

"Critical acclaim" is an extremely lazy way to try and quantify the merits of two different games imo. It ignores the contexts that they're released under. Not only are reviews simply people's individual opinions (and metacritic an aggregate of them), but those opinions aren't even necessarily constant. You could argue that Sonic Adventure (Dreamcast release) is superior to Mario 3D Land, or Perfect Dark Zero is superior to Destiny and almost on par with Halo 5 in this fashion. Both Tomb Raiders for example have a metascore equivalent to all three Uncharted games packaged together now. Just state your own opinions and quantify them with your reasons, rather than attempt to fall back on other people's for validation.

Tomb Raider obviously takes from Uncharted today, but let's not act like the reverse hasn't also been true. What Tomb Raider mostly draws from Uncharted is it's cinematic presentation (which is itself drawn from... you know... cinema). Most if it's gameplay systems where either created by them (Tomb Raider Legend for pretty much all of the traversal, and even much of the setpiece stuff like the vehicle sections) or are essentially just standard for the genre as a whole (with Gears popularising the majority of it). Uncharted didn't invent the third-person shooter.

Also, more popular is a weird one tbh. TR2013 has sold more than any individual Uncharted game. Sure, it was multiplatform... but that's kinda why it's not a comparison that should ever be brought up (much like Halo and Destiny for example).

 

[Game4life]

"Critical acclaim" is an extremely lazy way to try and quantify the merits of two different games imo. It ignores the contexts that they're released under. Not only are reviews simply people's individual opinions (and metacritic an aggregate of them), but those opinions aren't even necessarily constant. You could argue that Sonic Adventure (Dreamcast release) is superior to Mario 3D Land, or Perfect Dark Zero is superior to Destiny and almost on par with Halo 5 in this fashion. Both Tomb Raiders for example have a metascore equivalent to all three Uncharted games packaged together now. Just state your own opinions and quantify them with your reasons, rather than attempt to fall back on other people's for validation.

Tomb Raider obviously takes from Uncharted today, but let's not act like the reverse hasn't also been true. What Tomb Raider mostly draws from Uncharted is it's cinematic presentation (which is itself drawn from... you know... cinema). Most if it's gameplay systems where either created by them (Tomb Raider Legend for pretty much all of the traversal, and even much of the setpiece stuff like the vehicle sections) or are essentially just standard for the genre as a whole (with Gears popularising the majority of it). Uncharted didn't invent the third-person shooter.

Eh... first of all the reason I mention critical acclaim ( if you want my opinion I agree with UC2's acclaim because it is the best paced single player game after RE4 ) because it was very clearly what CD and SE looked at in coming up with their product. Every aspect of TR13 was derived from CD looking at UC and telling themselves - ' hey look UC is super popular and critically acclaimed so lets ape it without understanding why they are popular in the first place. The final product showcased a developer trying its level best to ape Uncharted by peppering the game with piss poor set pieces without having a basic understanding of the craftsmanship and thought that ND puts in them. Which is why UC2's train set peice will be a classic and TR13's .... Actually I cant remember a single set piece to critique even after having my intelligence insulted and my senses assaulted with tons of them throughout the game. I will not even get into the story telling.

I will not respond to your comments about Uncharted not inventing the third person shooter because that was not a claim I made in the first space. Plenty of developers get inspired by other games but always try to infuse it with their own ideas and try to give their own games some kind of unique personality. At least the best ones do. That is why Uncharted did not play like any other shooter inspite of sharing similarities with other shooters. I cannot say the same for CD unfortunately because their whole reason to make the game and their whole design philosophy seemed to be rooted in aping Uncharted. Again that is why you hear comparisons between the two and not between UC and Gears.

I suspect you will not see any shift in the difference between the two series when it comes to acclaim and popularity when UC4 releases for precisely the same reason but we shall see.

 

[Some Nobody]

If there weren't so many wave based encounters, I doubt there'd be anywhere near the same number of complaints about the enemies themselves. But when you just want to get to the next actual exciting area of the game, and instead it drops a load more enemies, but this time a bunch of them have armor, and helmets, and riot shield, and fucking rocket launchers... you start to internally demand that everything just die immediately, and get annoyed when they don't.

I think the problem here is that you refer to the non-shooting parts as the "actual exciting areas". I sigh in exasperation every time Drake has to do another ridiculous platforming section.

I've never found the same issues with UC that most people do, but as I'm replaying I'm attempting to do the "more mobile" deal that the OP is talking about--it's difficult to get used to, but it's interesting to play the game that way.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Elaborate away, I'm referring to either.

TR13 is the one I've played. On hard. Normal is a joke anyway, as it's on Uncharted.

The melee in TR2013 isn't a very strong tool in and of itself, but it works well to get an enemy out of your face and stunned allowing you to follow up with gunfire... that's of course separate to the dodge countering which I also class as melee.

Melee in TR13 is not a very strong tool due to restrictions in its design. It's practically a turn-based mechanic using the axe. Press triangle to pull your axe and hack. The animation itself leaves you extremely vulnerable to after-fail. There is no contextual animation lock.

I mean there isn't a better video to portray how much of a joke it's than this - its purest form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unnsWQkb4h0

The dodging part plays out like a QTE in the sense that button prompts time-sensitive are shown to you and you have to react to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBKdL9V23S0

Not to mention finishing melee attacks also give you button prompts - for everyone - not just a special NPC where you could give it a free pass. You have to react to them when the "system" allows/wants you to.

To approach an enemy straight up with melee without getting literally pushed back/hit (by said enemy) you have to dust the enemy to disorient them first and open them for melee. That in and on itself extremely limits the ability of a player to go straight up to any NPC in a crowd and melee with the axe alone (which is what's intuitive since that's the melee weapon - dedicated melee button). You can watch multiple full TR13 playthroughs on Youtube and you'll be surprised at how little melee is used. I mean you can grow old looking at close encounters where players continue to resort to shooting bullets when the enemies are at arm length of a melee attack. There is a reason for that. Hec to find a video of melee in TR13 SP in Youtube was a pain. Thank god for that second video.

I mean I came to the reality of how stupid it's by going towards an enemy in close encounters, pressing triangle and getting pushed back/hit again and again. If it was designed properly the player should be able to hack away with some sort of contextual melee animation without resorting to the pre-req of disorientation. There is sadly no contextual animation.

Every time I did this I had to instead remember that I forgot to either soften up the enemy with bullets for a finishing melee-move button prompt (in itself a guessing game) or the fact that to open them up (when fully healthy) you have to disorient them first (the dust gimmick) and quickly follow with triangle/axe hack. The whole ordeal takes up unnecessary steps because it's not a fully fledged out system with contextual animations. Simple as that.

In Uncharted you can approach any enemy (barring armored folks that will push you back if fully healthy and headbutt you) with melee, from any position and punch them (or straight up stealth kill them if approached from behind). There is no requisite for melee engagement in Uncharted.

To perform a "finishing move" on an enemy, there is no flashing button prompt to speak of, just press the same melee button as if you were to approach melee in any circumstance (provided the enemy is in low enough health or at a disadvantageous position). To dodge there is no button prompt (just roll). If you soften up an enemy in Uncharted with bullets, and you want to go for the finishing move, there is no button prompt, just a contextual melee animation with the melee button as you would approach any melee encounter. You can melee from ledges, both while hanging or kicking from above etc etc etc...

It's simple, smooth, it's effective, it makes sense.

That's a big difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8WKWZMrSBg

of many...

==============================================

.. unlike UC2 where landing a punch transitions you directly into some horrible "fight mode"

What's horrible about actually engaging in hand-to-hand, fist to fist combat? Like wtf? In a real life fight if you punch someone, your enemy reacts to the punch and responds in kind. I mean what's wrong with that?

It's supposed to behave that way - that's what a player expects. You approach an NPC, land a punch and you're positioned to land another one. The enemy also positions itself to respond in kind with their own melee moves. You can chose to continue in the engagement after your first punch by continuing to press buttons OR not press any button and flee the fight. What's so great about the animation and stance is that the player intuitively knows when to continue punching given the NPC reaction to the initial punch and players usually do so because they're in an advantageous position after landing the first punch. It's a great feedback mechanism helped by top notch animations. You can approach an enemy with melee from any position and there are contextual animations for practically every approach.

That's the genius of it. It's designed in a way to induce the player to press the melee button again which ends up in the smooth and continuous flow of the fight (interlinking animations/punches). That's smart design, not poor.

It's the same in TLOU but TLOU has added weapons, which actually behave like you would expect compared to TR2013.

The initial weapon hack animations in TLOU hold up just enough that any other animation (button press) following the initial button press feels natural and linked (it never "feels" out of the initial animation even if there are two or three animations linked together in the process). You can quit at any time barring finishing move animations which are sensitive to enemy health.

I should actually clarify that I'm speaking specifically about UC2 here. This is actually one (possibly the only) area that I felt UC1 was superior. Melee in that game was incredibly simple, and basically only ever amounted to hitting Triangle-Square-Triangle, but it was at least harmless and quickly over with... in UC2 your character and the enemy practically look like they're dancing with each other for what feels like an eternity

In U2 it's the same simple system of UC1, but with more and better contextual animations (both for NPCs and for the player obviously) and better visual feedback. It's an improved system, not a set back. Same thing for Uncharted 3. Uncharted melee is also the exoskeleton of melee in the TLOU. You can't have one without the other basically. It's a blueprint improved after each iteration with better, more animations, better timings etc...etc...

with you having no control over Drake until it's over.

Absolutely incorrect. You have control of Drake. The animations are so good that your subconscious reaction after landing the initial punch is to continue to press buttons resulting in a fully fledged melee fight until the enemy dies or you fail to dodge and/or die. That's how good it's. You can drop it at any time. Being trigger happy is the player just reacting to animations that encourage being trigger happy - since well, the enemy is usually at a disadvantage after you land the initial punch (not just in terms of health, but the visual reaction to the initial punch tells you clearly).

It's absolutely horrible, and I'm struggling to think of many games I'd rate as low as it in this area.

I figure if Crystal Dynamics hasn't already taken cues for TR2015 from TLOU in how to handle weapon-based melee which is the same way ND handles fist-based melee (same basic concept - just different animations and damage values), they'll do it sooner or later. I say this since well, it's superior to their solution (in TR13) in practically every way and it's clear they took some cues with their stealth, and crafting already. It would be interesting to hear opinions on that in the future, although sometimes the absence of criticism, and instead praise says more.

The hyperbole falls flat.

 

[nib95]

OK, so here's the video I made.

It's definitely not ideal but it was my first take, and I didn't want to lose the whole night doing another. I'm mainly stealthing a lot of the Train Wreck fight then gusto-ing the beginning of Siege in Tibet.

Hopefully this shows people, to some extent, how well movement works as a dynamic strategy in the games. You can lose enemies, be found again, pop shots, lose them, ambush them, etc. All while clambering/jumping about. It's what makes the games great imo - and is only truly realised in Uncharted 2.

Edit: pretty classic walk off cliff death 1/3rd in.



Haha, yeah, great to see someone actually taking shit on board! So many people are driving by and sticking to their behind-cover guns.

Great video. I was going to upload some myself to show just how varied and competent some of the arena design is, and how quickly and easily the enemies actually go down with good aim, but just haven't had the time.

TR13 is the one I've played. On hard. Normal is a joke anyway, as it's on Uncharted.



Melee in TR13 is not a very strong tool due to restrictions in its design. It's practically a turn-based mechanic using the axe. Press triangle to pull your axe and hack. The animation itself leaves you extremely vulnerable to after-fail. There is no contextual animation lock.

I mean there isn't a better video to portray how much of a joke it's than this - its purest form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unnsWQkb4h0

The dodging part plays out like a QTE in the sense that button prompts time-sensitive are shown to you and you have to react to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBKdL9V23S0

Not to mention finishing melee attacks also give you button prompts - for everyone - not just a special NPC where you could give it a free pass. You have to react to them when the "system" allows/wants you to.

To approach an enemy straight up with melee without getting literally pushed back (by said enemy) you have dust the enemy to disorient them first and open them for melee. That in and on itself extremely limits the ability of a player to go straight up to any NPC in a crowd and melee with the axe alone (which is what's intuitive since that's the melee weapon - dedicated melee button).

I mean I came to the reality of how stupid it's by going towards an enemy in close encounters, pressing triangle and getting pushed back and back again. If it was designed properly the player should be able to hack away with some sort of contextual melee animation without resorting to the pre-req of disorientation. There is sadly no contextual animation.

Every time I did this I had to instead remember that I forgot to either soften up the enemy with bullets for a finishing melee-move button prompt or the fact that to open them up (when fully healthy) you have to disorient them first (the dust gimmick) and quickly follow with triangle/axe hack. The whole ordeal takes up unnecessary steps because it's not a fully fledged out system with contextual animations. Simple as that.

In Uncharted you can approach any enemy (barring armored folks that will push you back if fully healthy and headbutt you) with melee, from any position and punch them (or straight up stealth kill them if approached from behind). There is no requisite for melee engagement in Uncharted.

To finish an enemy, there is no button prompt to speak of, it's the same melee button as if you were to approach melee in any circumstance. To dodge there is no button prompt (just roll). If you soften up an enemy in Uncharted with bullets, and you want to go for the finishing move, there is no button prompt, just a contextual melee animation with the melee buttom. It's simple, smooth, it's effective, it makes sense.

That's a big difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8WKWZMrSBg

==============================================


What's horrible about actually engaging in hand-to-hand, fist to fist combat? Like wtf? In a real life fight you punch someone and folks respond in kind. I mean what's wrong with that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8WKWZMrSBg

It's supposed to behave that way - that's what a player expects. You approach an NPC, land a punch and you're positioned to land another one. The enemy also positions itself to respond in kind with their own melee moves. You can chose to continue in the engagement after your first punch by continuing to press buttons OR not press any button and flee the fight. What's so great about the animation and stance is that the player intuitively knows when to continue punching given NPC reaction to the initial punch and players usually do so because they're in an advantageous position after landing the punch. It's a great feedback mechanism helped by top notch animations. You can approach an enemy with melee from any position and there are contextual animations for practically every approach.

That's the genius of it. It's designed in a way to induce the player to press the button again which ends up in the smooth and continuous flow of the fight. That's smart design, not poor.

It's the same in TLOU but with the addition of weapons, which actually behave like you would expect compared to TR2013.

The initial weapon hack animations in TLOU hold up just enough that contextual animations following the initial button press feel natural and never out of the initial animation even if there are two or three animations linked together in the process. You can quit at any time barring finishing move animations.



In U2 it's the same simple system of UC1, but with more and better contextual animations (both for NPCs and for the player obviously) and better visual feedback. Same thing for Uncharted 3. Uncharted melee is also the exoskeleton of melee in the TLOU. You can't have one without the other basically.




Absolutely incorrect. You have control of Drake. The animations are so good that your subconscious reaction is to continue to press buttons resulting in a fully fledged melee fight until the enemy dies or you fail to dodge. That's how good it's. You can drop it at any time. Being trigger happy is the player just reacting to animations that encourage being trigger happy - since well, the enemy is usually at a disadvantage after you land the initial punch (not just in terms of health, but the visual reaction to the punch).



It figure if Crystal Dynamics hasn't already taken cues for TR2015 from TLOU in how to handle weapon-based melee which is the same way ND handles fist-based melee (same basic concept - just different animations and damage values), they'll do it sooner or later. I say this since well, it's superior to their solution in practically every way and it's clear they took some cues with their stealth, and crafting. It would be interesting to hear opinions on that in the future, although sometimes the absence of criticism, and instead the praise says more.

The hyperbole falls flat.

Damn, a seriously comprehensive rebuttal and breakdown of the reasons why.

 

[TaterTots]

Personally, I disagree. UC3 was bundled with my PS3 and I thought it was boring. Obviously, that isn't the popular opinion, but it is mine. I really wanted to love UC after all the hype. I may give 4 a chance. Hopefully, it changes my opinion.

 

[Synth]

Eh... first of all the reason I mention critical acclaim ( if you want my opinion I agree with UC2's acclaim because it is the best paced single player game after RE4 ) because it was very clearly what CD and SE looked at in coming up with their product. Every aspect of TR13 was derived from CD looking at UC and telling themselves - ' hey look UC is super popular and critically acclaimed so lets ape it without understanding why they are popular in the first place. The final product showcased a developer trying its level best to ape Uncharted by peppering the game with piss poor set pieces without having a basic understanding of the craftsmanship and thought that ND puts in them. Which is why UC2's train set peice will be a classic and TR13's .... Actually I cant remember a single set piece to critique even after having my intelligence insulted and my senses assaulted with tons of them throughout the game. I will not even get into the story telling.

I will not respond to your comments about Uncharted not inventing the third person shooter because that was not a claim I made in the first space. Plenty of developers get inspired by other games but always try to infuse it with their own ideas and try to give their own games some kind of unique personality. At least the best ones do. That is why Uncharted did not play like any other shooter inspite of sharing similarities with other shooters. I cannot say the same for CD unfortunately because their whole reason to make the game and their whole design philosophy seemed to be rooted in aping Uncharted. Again that is why you hear comparisons between the two and not between UC and Gears.

I suspect you will not see any shift in the difference between the two series when it comes to acclaim and popularity when UC4 releases for precisely the same reason but we shall see.

Yea, I know you didn't claim Uncharted invented the TPS, I just threw that in, because honestly... outside of the whole "run! everything going to shit around you", that's basically all there is separating the reboot from the previous three Tomb Raider games. The traversal is something that Uncharted lifted directly from Tomb Raider, only simplified, and nearly everything else from the general story progression (look for treasure, find out treasure is magic/cursed/whatever), to the environments, to the types of enemies are all pretty standard fare, and things that prior Tomb Raiders have already well covered. It's like people think we went from Core's Tomb Raider games straight to the reboot, without any clear logical progression along the way. Tomb Raider Legend is basically an Uncharted 0.5. Bolt Gears' TPS mechanics onto Tomb Raider Legend, and you pretty much have Drake's Fortune. Tomb Raider Legend itself was already very much a TPS, the reboot's just adjusting to the TPS standards of today, rather than those that were prevalent pre-Gears.

It doesn't even mimic Uncharted very closely in combat either (outside of the aspect common to basically every game in the subgenre since Gears came along).. you don't hip-fire or blind-fire, you don't have a dedicated cover button, it doesn't have a QTE like melee sequence, there's far more of a focus on dodging (or scrambling) and performing counter attacks etc.

You seem to look at the area of the game that bares the most resemblance (the setpieces), and attribute that to the game being a direct copy... ignoring all the ways they're different (and why so many people that like one, aren't enjoying that other). Tomb Raider is a significantly more open game, with far more of a focus on exploration. It's like comparing Mario 64 to Crash Bandicoot in the way Uncharted funnels you from one encounter to another, with zero possibility to deviate from its singular path. Tomb Raider by comparison allows you to freely roam the environment, looking for ways to upgrade your character, of uncover more of the backstory, of discover challenge tombs etc... to act like Uncharted brings a unique personality over simply being Tomb Raider Legend + Gears, but Tomb Raider 2013 doesn't over Uncharted is some seriously selective reasoning tbh.

I will agree that the train section was great. That was actually the point where I was thinking to myself "hmmm, yea I can see the series' appeal right now" (until I got to that boss, holy shit). The thing is though, that thought came to me halfway into the second game in the series, and wasn't matched at any other point. The tank battle was cool too... but after that the game dropped off entirely and my memory of it simply blurs together with my memories of UC1. Tons of waves of enemies for eternity. UC2 has the highest high out of the games, but the series also easily has the lowest lows. There's not a single moment of any Tomb Raider game I've played that's even close to approaching the suckitude of those jetski sections in UC1. Nothing. The train, tank and jumping between cars are the only set-pieces I recall from Uncharted either though tbh. I can't even think of one from the first game.

I think the problem here is that you refer to the non-shooting parts as the "actual exciting areas". I sigh in exasperation every time Drake has to do another ridiculous platforming section.

I've never found the same issues with UC that most people do, but as I'm replaying I'm attempting to do the "more mobile" deal that the OP is talking about--it's difficult to get used to, but it's interesting to play the game that way.

Oh, believe me, I'm not impressed by the by-the-numbers Tomb Raider-lite traversal either... by exciting bits, I mean set pieces. The parts of the game that showcase its cinematic aspirations, rather than all the other stuff that feels like it's just there to avoid the game being the same length as a typical Hollywood blockbuster. If Uncharted were a 3 hour game where there were no enemy waves beyond those you first encounter in an area, and the only standard traversal there was, was key to moving between locations... I'd probably like it a lot better (wouldn't buy it for $60 though... which is why all this padding is in these games)

 

[Game4life]

Yea, I know you didn't claim Uncharted invented the TPS, I just threw that in, because honestly... outside of the whole "run! everything going to shit around you", that's basically all there is separating the reboot from the previous three Tomb Raider games. The traversal is something that Uncharted lifted directly from Tomb Raider, only simplified, and nearly everything else from the general story progression (look for treasure, find out treasure is magic/cursed/whatever), to the environments, to the types of enemies are all pretty standard fare, and things that prior Tomb Raiders have already well covered. It's like people think we went from Core's Tomb Raider games straight to the reboot, without any clear logical progression along the way. Tomb Raider Legend is basically an Uncharted 0.5. Bolt Gears' TPS mechanics onto Tomb Raider Legend, and you pretty much have Drake Fortune. Tomb Raider Legend itself was already very much a TPS, the reboot's just adjusting to the TPS standards of today, rather than those that were prevalent pre-Gears.

It doesn't even mimic Uncharted very closely in combat either (outside of the aspect common to basically every game in the subgenre since Gears came along).. you don't hip-fire or blind-fire, you don't have a dedicated cover button, it doesn't have a QTE like melee sequence, there's far more of a focus on dodging (or scrambling) and performing counter attacks etc.

You seem to look at the area of the game that bares the most resemblance (the setpieces), and attribute that to the game being a direct copy... ignoring all the ways they're different (and why so many people that like one, aren't enjoying that other). Tomb Raider is a significantly more open game, with far more of a focus on exploration. It's like comparing Mario 64 to Crash Bandicoot in the way Uncharted funnels you from one encounter to another, with zero possibility to deviate from its singular path. Tomb Raider by comparison allows you to freely roam the environment, looking for ways to upgrade your character, of uncover more of the backstory, of discover challenge tombs etc... to act like Uncharted brings a unique personality over simply being Tomb Raider Legend + Gears, but Tomb Raider 2013 doesn't over Uncharted is some seriously selective reasoning tbh.

I will agree that the train section was great. That was actually the point where I was thinking to myself "hmmm, yea I can see the series' appeal right now" (until I got to that boss, holy shit). The thing is though, that thought came to me halfway into the second game in the series, and wasn't matched at any other point. The tank battle was cool too... but after that the game dropped off entirely and my memory of it simply blurs together with my memories of UC1. Tons of waves of enemies for eternity. UC2 has the highest high out of the games, but the series also easily has the lowest lows. There's not a single moment of any Tomb Raider game I've played that's even close to approaching the suckitude of those jetski sections in UC1. Nothing. The train, tank and jumping between cars are the only set-pieces I recall from Uncharted either though tbh. I can't even think of one from the first game.

You dont get it. When I look at UC, the original TR and Gears they dont appear alike nor play alike. They play completely differently. Their design philosophies are completely different. TR2013 on the other hand looks like a straight up poor rip off. When a newcomer plays the Original TR games it is highly unlikely he/she is going to say hey this feels like Uncharted from an encounter design and presentation perspective. When they play Gears they are not going to think it looks similar to Uncharted from a level design, encounter design perspective. When someone new plays TR13 after having played Uncharted the similarities will be god damn obvious and the poor implementation of metroidvania ( thrown around like a buzz word by devs these days without understanding how that term used to be synonymous with meaningful exploration which TR13 wishes it had instead of joke tombs and retrofitting piss poor RPG mechanics that add zero value to the game ) will not change that. The metroidvania elements do not add anything to the game that changes how encounters play out or traversal feels.

I am not going to talk about UC1 and 3 considering I dont consider both those games great. UC2 is the only masterpiece in the series and in contention for one of the greatest paced single player games of all time ( From Nepal it has absolutely flawless pacing moving like liquid from chapter to chapter ).

UC3 is an average game with average encounter and level design and probably at the same level as the likes of Gears and Max Payne but still above TR13. UC1 is straight up worse mechanically than all of them.

 

[Synth]

@GnawtyDog - Your post is loooong. I'll get back to you a bit later when I have more time.

You dont get it. When I look at UC, the original TR and Gears they dont appear alike nor play alike. They play completely differently. Their design philosophies are completely different. TR2013 on the other hand looks like a straight up poor rip off. When a newcomer plays the Original TR games it is highly unlikely he/she is going to say hey this feels like Uncharted from an encounter design and presentation perspective. When they play Gears they are not going to think it looks similar to Uncharted from a level design, encounter design perspective. When someone new plays TR13 after having played Uncharted the similarities will be god damn obvious and the poor implementation of metroidvania ( thrown around like a buzz word by devs these days without understanding how that term used to be synonymous with meaningful exploration which TR13 wishes it had instead of joke tombs and retrofitting piss poor RPG mechanics that add zero value to the game ) will not change that.

I am not going to talk about UC1 and 3 considering I dont consider both those games great. UC2 is the only masterpiece in the series and in contention for one of the greatest paced single player games of all time ( From Nepal it has absolutely flawless pacing moving like liquid from chapter to chapter ).

UC3 is an average game with average encounter and level and encounter design and probably at the same level as the likes of Gears and Max Payne but still above TR13. UC1 is straight up worse mechanically than all of them.

You're right. I don't get it. When I look at all three games (Gears, Tomb Raider, Uncharted) I see very clear parallels between all of them, especially Gears and Uncharted with their cover button doubling up as a dive, and either being able to transition from one cover to another at the touch of a button, or instead vault over it. The comparison does come up all them time and has done since Drake's Fortune first arrived on the scene. Hell, you yourself brought Gears up in response to a post where I hadn't even mentioned it. The settings and stories, along with the traversal stuff and light puzzles make Tomb Raider and Uncharted a closer comparison, but those are things that Tomb Raider had first before Uncharted even existed... it was never going to change those in order to not be compared. All these games come from the school of Gears (which itself evolved from kill.swicth and Winback). Uncharted put its own spin on the mechanics, but pretty much all of them don't apply to Tomb Raider (and vice versa). The games are more superficially similar, because Uncharted sets itself in places, and contains events similar to what Tomb Raider did... the Nepal stage in Tomb Raider Legend looks strikingly similar to the Nepal stage in UC2 for example, and even has Lara escaping a place about to fall off the face of a cliff.. it uses QTE prompts instead (because that's how these cinematic scenes were done back then.. but if you replace that with holding forwards and jumping at the right time, you have the same action template as current day Tomb Raider. The reboot is simply a natural extension of what Crystal Dynamics' (not Core's) Tomb Raider has always been.

You're right though, that nobody would look at the original Tomb Raider games that Core made and register significant similarities to Uncharted or TR2013, but that's besides the point. Those games were puzzle-platformers, they weren't action games first and you went very long periods of time on those without firing a single bullet. This all changed when the IP was moved from Core to Crystal Dynamics, and they created Tomb Raider Legend. This entry was completely different from the original games, placed a heavy focus on combat, was as flashy as could be, had cinematic set pieces (car chases, shooting from a bike etc), added the free roaming traversal that both Uncharted and Tomb Raider still employ to this day, etc... The link between Uncharted and Tomb Raider Legend is very easy to see for those that played both, and clearly demonstrates where Crystal Dynamics were going with the series, from the first moment they gained control of it. Uncharted just taught them how to make the crumbling platforming traps (which already existed in Tomb Raider games) look real nice.

 

[Rembrandt]

Ugh, I'm writing on mobile and it keeps refreshing causing me to lose my post when I switch tabs, but no, it's not a great TPS. I wouldn't heavily argue with it being a great series but as a culmination of its parts and definitely not because of the shooting especially which is the biggest factor of a great TPS. Max Payne 3 is GOAT because of its shooting mechanics/gameplay. I could do a round of survival or some shit that only involved shooting in that game for a long time. Same for Gears or TLoU. I would get bored extremely fast playing an arena mode in UC. I prefer tomb raiders gameplay more and I wouldn't call that a great TPS, same for something like GTA V and I've put an obscene amount of hours into it but the game is designed around that gunplay which makes it good but still needs noticeable improvements for me to see it as a great TPS.

TLoU combat probably wouldnt work in Uncharted but as a direct comparison, TLoU plays so much better. Uncharted 4 seems to be adding more mobility, open spaces and other cool shit to its combat but that alone won't matter much to me if the combat still feels off the way it does.

Uncharted has some of the most satisfying headshots out there I will say, because they instant kill.

Hate to single you out but this is also why I avoid getting in debates about anything ND related because I really don't fucking know how UC has some of the most satisfying headshots just because they instant kill like literally every other game that involves shooting at something with a head. I get they're called Naughty Gods but they didn't invent headshots or even come close to having the most satisfying ones.

 

[SomTervo]

I'll be the first to admit I'm bad at games, especially with shooters since I only started playing them about a year ago, haha!

I feel like this is something that applies to a lot of other games with emergent gameplay. It's easy to stick with the same tactic over and over when it seems to work, but in the end the fun comes from trying something new. Boy did Far Cry 3 get boring once I realized the dominant strategy is to just snipe everyone. I'll start trying this sort of dynamic thinking with every game now.

You're very much on the mark with the bolded.

I think this is a big reason for the vocal minority who dislike MGSV. They simply play the game with tried and true stealth tactics which become repetitive after 20 hours (when a normal MGS game would have finished). The reason MGSV is a masterpiece is that you can play it however you want, and you can have fun trying different things. Any tactic is 100% viable.

Really like this video tbh as that arena itself is extremely good as you demonstrated. Even if you died a few times it was on Crushing so every small mistake matters but it shows moving around is rewarded and is definitely a better way to play the game when you can "lose" the enemies like you did there. Now of course, that isn't the case all the time in UC2 -- there are times where when you get caught everyone knows your exact location but it depends on the arena, how much room you have to lose them and so on.

I really liked how you demonstrated that on the armored guys as well. All around a good showcase even if a good chunk of it is stealth kills but they're not the typical kind like the first part of that particular arena (where the enemies have a patrol route and haven't found you yet).

As I said the other day I'd upload another thing from UC3 since it was during my Crushing playthrough -- it's all freeform for the most part, only the first bit is planned but if you skip to about... 6:27 in the video down below (where the infamous ballroom of the cruise ship begins) you'll see how much I'm moving around in an enclosed space in one part of that arena to take out the armored guys and a bunch of the weaker goons with close-ranged weapons. I could've gone past the area I put myself in but that would have been extremely risky on Crushing so I stayed where I was and moved around in that vicinity but not sitting behind cover. Just watch how much I move and how it could have gone south if I stayed behind cover for too long.

Here (I don't know how to link timestamps specifically because youtube changed the code for it recently... if anyone can tell me I can edit the link so it skips to the portion I'm talking about).

Word - and thanks for the feedback!

Great video. I was going to upload some myself to show just how varied and competent some of the arena design is, and how quickly and easily the enemies actually go down with good aim, but just haven't had the time.

Thanks!

I need to do a better example, showing actual mobile combat. Might try it out with the later Shambala fights.

Not a super big stealth fan, so unfortunately it ended to me when it was getting really fun! But it was still very interesting to watch, it's always fun to see games being played in a way different than mine.

Thanks for the vid! And stop pressing square!

Ah, sorry mate. I'm a huge stealth guy so when they built 'action stealth' into Uncharted 2 I was insanely happy and played countless times to try and master it as a stealth game. Same with The Last of Us (seriously 85% of that game can be totally stealthed, it's insanely variable). Stealth is one of the most satisfying things to nail in a game, imo.

As said above, I think I'll make another video showcasing a more "traditional" fight, so you're action-oriented ways will be catered to

Did you play the Order? Also has some amazing, amazing gunplay. I have vids of that, too.

 

[Gbraga]

Oh, I'll check your videos then. Didn't play The Order since it really doesn't seem to be a game I'll enjoy, but I heard some good things about its gunplay, and everything I've seen seems to confirm it.

EDIT: No I won't, they're not uploaded.

 

[SomTervo]

Oh, I'll check your videos then. Didn't play The Order since it really doesn't seem to be a game I'll enjoy, but I heard some good things about its gunplay, and everything I've seen seems to confirm it.

EDIT: No I won't, they're not uploaded.

Haha, yeah, they're on my hard drive. Won't take long to upload, though. No commentary as they were made in the moment.

I'm actually about to make an LTTP about The Order. It's an infuriating game, because the gameplay is actually 85% fantastic and it has possibly the best cover gunfighting mechanics I've ever used. It's set in a great universe (brilliant concept) with solid characters and the graphics are mind-blowing.

But it's like only act 1 and 2. It just ends. Plot twists don't go anywhere, character development is snipped off. You can tell just by the tone/pace of the last hour or so that they were running out of time/resources and just rushed scenes out to try and finish it. People complain about MGSV being unfinished, but they clearly haven't played The Order.

Up until that last hour I would have easily rated it up there with Uncharted 1 or 3.

Anyway, on-topic. How great is Uncharted.

 

[IvorB]

The actual level design was pretty damn good, but the lesser hit feedback and enemy AI, as well as the long-winded melee combat that was pretty useless during firefights held it back compared to 2.

Still a fun game though, but then again, UC combat is some of my favorite TPS combat. I just love Drake's toolset, his mobility and the verticality.

I really can't wait for 4, it looks bananas.

I remember the AI being being very good in U3. They were really aggressive. But the melee combat was poor. The worst was getting locking into melee and being unable to break away when other people started shooting at you.

Yeah - there were good highlights in Uncharted 3, and it's still a great adventure.

But it was still mainly far-worse scenarios. Syria is OK but flawed (some confusing directions, some areas that were too open with badly designed cover-routes). London was OK. The ship graveyard is very good, but the cruise ship is almost all very flawed (phenomenal set piece, terrible for combat). The horseback/jeep chase was great, but the airport was pretty flawed (still decent but there was no freedom in approach, which UC2 always ensures you have). The demon-fights later on were super-flawed, really terrible, especially in comparison with Uncharted 2's smurfs. The later combat segments were sort of OK but still badly paced with not very interesting situations. Almost like half-Halo half-Uncharted. The levels got big but relatively empty with badly placed enemies/cover/weapons.

I struggle to think of a single bad combat scenario from Uncharted 2. It's better designed consistently, wall-to-wall.

I thought the cruise ship level was ace. *shrugs*

How are those gifs unrepresentative, Max Payne 3 has much better weapon feedback and mechanics (bullet time/diving) than Uncharted's gameplay and scoring a headshot in Gears is more satisfying than anything in Uncharted. Level design is also tighter in those than Uncharted plus MP3 does cinematic pacing much better than any of the Uncharted games.

It's a matter of personal preference. I really don't want any of that slow-mo, "bullet time" crap in my TPS games. I just want good honest shooting. Those .gifs didn't really sell it to me that well to be honest. Would I like it if Uncharted goons' heads exploded with blood and gore? Of course. But it's not really that important to the overall shooting experience or me.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I remember the AI being being very good in U3. They were really aggressive. But the melee combat was poor. The worst was getting locking into melee and being unable to break away when other people started shooting at you.

Actually I'm pretty sure U3 is the only one that lets you break out of melee. In 3 you at least have the O button to throw the enemy off you and you can back away, in 1 & 2 I'm pretty sure that you're locked in and if you stop hitting the melee button the enemy is just gonna start wailing on you.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Where is this bullet sponge nonsense coming from? Is it because you cannot sneeze, accidently press the trigger and kill 3 dudes like you can in CoD?

 

[SomTervo]

I thought the cruise ship level was ace. *shrugs*

As I said in the quote - it's a phenomenal set-piece, but the combat leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, the shoot-out in the dining/theatre room, where your only safe/reliable cover is three crap, arbitrary boxes on the hall floor. Or the bit just beyond the containers where you have 1-2 bits of rubbish cover and loads of guys are dropping down off the ledge. The bit in the rapidly-filling cargo hold is OK, but the placement of the cover and the enemy spawns still makes it frustrating sometimes, esp. on harder difficulties - eg when guys come from up high behind you and then to the side. Rather than making enemy placement consistent and letting them flood into ambush you, they actively spawn the enemies so that they ambush you by design. So weak.

All the 1v1 fights and the general platforming/movement are fucking brilliant in that level, though. It's a fantastic environment.

I think the ship graveyard immediately before is a bit better combat design wise. Has some strong moments. Look forward to replaying in the ND Collection.

Where is this bullet sponge nonsense coming from? Is it because you cannot sneeze, accidently press the trigger and kill 3 dudes like you can in CoD?

Yeah, it's really annoying.

In classic GAF fashion, though, 99% of the haters showed up for the first two pages to fire shots then disappeared once the discussion/polemics actually started.

 

[IvorB]

Actually I'm pretty sure U3 is the only one that lets you break out of melee. In 3 you at least have the O button to throw the enemy off you and you can back away, in 1 & 2 I'm pretty sure that you're locked in and if you stop hitting the melee button the enemy is just gonna start wailing on you.

I don't remember the issue specifically but I think it was, even if you throw him off, you are not free to roll away immediately. So if you are locked in melee and you start taking fire you may throw them off but you would not snap back into the evasive roll options that you had before you initiated melee. It was way too fiddly to just cancel the whole melee thing and go back to freely diving and running around which is what I needed.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Where is this bullet sponge nonsense coming from? Is it because you cannot sneeze, accidently press the trigger and kill 3 dudes like you can in CoD?

I honestly don't know where it comes from tbh. I mean the armored enemies are, but they are infrequent and their design is to get you to move from cover if you don't take them out before they reach you, which is a good thing. I think it's a hold over from Uncharted 1 where enemies could take a few more hits and because they were wearing t-shirts people got all wanked because it wasn't realistic and then it just became a thing you said about Uncharted. "It's just endless waves of bullet sponges". Count the times that's said in this thread alone and you'll run out of fingers.

I don't remember the issue specifically but I think it was, even if you throw him off, you are not free to roll away immediately. So if you are locked in melee and you start taking fire you may throw them off but you would not snap back into the evasive roll options that you had before you initiated melee. It was way too fiddly to just cancel the whole melee thing and go back to freely diving and running around which is what I needed.

I agree it's not where it should have been, but as far as I know it's still an improvement over not being able to cancel out of melee at all like 1&2. Unless I'm wrong on that, but pretty sure you can't.

 

[IvorB]

As I said in the quote - it's a phenomenal set-piece, but the combat leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, the shoot-out in the dining/theatre room, where your only safe/reliable cover is three crap, arbitrary boxes on the hall floor. Or the bit just beyond the containers where your cover is totally crap and all the guys are dropping down off the ledge. The bit in the rapidly-filling cargo hold is OK, but the placement of the cover and the enemy spawns still makes it frustrating sometimes, esp. on harder difficulties.

Hmmm... I really don't want it to look like a nicely laid out combat area with waist high walls everywhere. I just want to it look like a convincing, realistic space and then just work with what's there. It's one of the things I really appreciated about the game actually: that it didn't suffer from waist-high wall syndrome.