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[JaggedSac]

Well the OneGuide does show whats trending or whats new for Apps like Hulu, YouTube, and Crunchyroll, so the name is kind of fitting since the OneGuide can do more then just show your Cable-box listings.

Edit: Looks like I was beaten to the punch.

It's also used for the app stuff for shows. I think labeling it a "Xbox stick" isn't good for the masses. Most people associate Xbox with gaming. If you are a business trying to have mass appeal, you don't label something that's a niche. OneGuide is associated with Xbox but it doesn't only mean gaming. I'm not saying it will be that but I don't think naming it a "Xbox Stick" or whatever is a good idea.

People could search for a show and it come up with different apps using the OneGuide app channel stuff. That would be it's benefit as that name.

Mainly I think the "guide" name is a bad idea because it is a reference to the cable channel guide one would find on a cable box or one would look at in the tv guide. I think that is a bit too outdated of a reference to build a device off of. If they announce at E3, it will almost assuredly have XBox branding and they will try to use whatever gaming capabilities as the spearhead to get consumer interest.

 

[c0de]

Do they need to get around that?

Esram is just memory. It just so happens to have lower latency and high speed compared to the main memory, but I don't see why it wouldn't just work, so there will be a performance degradation due the higher latency, but if everything else is faster it will likely end up being faster overall.

Shouldn't impact the game's code as well, because I doubt any game out there has hard coded the timing it takes from read from esram.

It would be similar to how xbone games perform against their Ps4 counterparts, the esram may even make some part of the process faster on xbone, but overall it's still faster on ps4. And regarding game support, AFAIK there's no specific code involving accessing esram, just "prepare things up" code, like managing what goes into esram and at what time, along with many ways to split that data to make more room, which wouldn't be a problem on a system that has a larger pool of faster ram.

Of course it is only memory but special memory that is on-die. It has very good speeds even with concurrent access patterns. Also it uses as a very fast scratch-pad for developers and has more use-cases than usual ram.

 

[richman555]

I think all of this has come about due to the Nintendo NX. Certainly, it makes sense for Nintendo, as they have had lackluster performance with the Wii U. Ending their console generation early makes sense. And its likely, the NX will approximate the power of both PS4 and XboxOne and level the field.

Sony and Microsoft would likely be happy with just a split of the pie, but the NX imminent launch has driven them to leak details of future consoles which do not exist yet. There are also no clear launch dates for these endeavors, so why is this information important? Why do Sony and MS need to do this now?

 

[Zedox]

Mainly I think the "guide" name is a bad idea because it is a reference to the cable channel guide one would find on a cable box or one would look at in the tv guide. I think that is a bit too outdated of a reference to build a device off of. If they announce at E3, it will almost assuredly have XBox branding and they will try to use whatever gaming capabilities as the spearhead to get consumer interest.

I think they can announce it at E3 and not have the Xbox branding...but what they will focus on is the game streaming capabilities of the device (which I think will have both Xbox Game Streaming and PC Game Streaming). Somebody said "OneStick"...that's fine with me. I just think having it branded Xbox isn't a smart move.

 

[Obscuritas]

I don't understand why people keep using 360 to PS4 as a example. Xbox One wasn't backwards compatible on launch. They also had a major fuck up with merketing and Kinect. I'm sure Sony won't end up doing that. People also went PS2 to 360 due to Sony's manor fuck up with PS3 launch. The fact we Andre getting upgrades from bow on its less likely for anyone to have huge fuck ups and shake ups. PS1 to PS2 wasn't much of a huge shake up or fuck up and Sony dominated. This is a the age of connectivity, digital content, online communities etc. Sony's timing of dominating with PS4 in this age will help them massively in the future. The fact that PS4 is the go to console will only make it more obvious that there upgrade systems will also continue to dominate.

Yup, pretty much. Online communities are a huge factor nowadays, and since neither Neo nor Scorpio would start from scratch that's gonna drastically help Sony in the long run. We'll see a lot of 3rd party games which will attract all kinds of customers in the next 15 months: for what we know, the fall 2017 release date can really damage the XB brand if the X1 sales will tank, because that would translate into even more PlayStation adopters, who will hardly leave Sony no matter how much powerful Scorpio is.

I agree. It's obvious that Microsoft isn't going for a simple console war "our console sales vs. your console sales" battle here. They want people to have access to the same Xbox services and games across various devices.

Also this.

Even if they won't compete for the first spot anymore, that doesn't mean they are quitting the gaming business all together.

 

[JaggedSac]

Personally, I think they have a tough sell for a stick device if Sams was correct with his $99 amount. That is a lot higher than other devices of that category. I really don't know how they are going to be successful coming in late and at that price point without a strong brand attached.

 

[MrGreencastle]

Personally, I think they have a tough sell for a stick device if Sams was correct with his $99 amount. That is a lot higher than other devices of that category. I really don't know how they are going to be successful coming in late and at that price point without a strong brand attached.

I mean... if it's a Windows 10 PC with access to the Xbox/Windows 10 app store, that's a pretty big deal as it is more positioned against the new Apple TV or Roku than the likes of Chromecast.

 

[DagnastyEp]

A console sized and priced box that can play Oculus Rift games would be a massive deal in itself. (Assuming that get a deal like that in place.)

Having a new generation console come out, being able to say things like "most powerful console ever" will attract people. A new console is always a chance at a fresh start.

I can understand why they would want to announce so early too. It would look very favorable for them if they're able to position their future box as being the "next gen" box vs their competitor (Neo) being just a half gen refresh.

A month ago, before Scorpio rumors, I was against the idea of a 2017 console, I thought it was too early. I'm totally indifferent toward Neo, and wasn't excited about a similar half step upgrade in the Xbox One. Now though, with the little unconfirmed info we have, I'm excited, it sounds like a bigger jump. It sounds like Phil's wanting to get started on a new foot. I'm ready to get my preorder in.

 

[JaggedSac]

I mean... if it's a Windows 10 PC with access to the Xbox/Windows 10 app store, that's a pretty big deal as it is more positioned against the new Apple TV or Roku than the likes of Chromecast.

Sure, that is a marketing problem. Especially since they also allegedly have a "puck" type device to compete with those as well at the $150 range. People at this point don't give two poops about the Win 10 store. You aren't selling a device based on that.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Bottom line is they need to be able to build the frame in the same or better time than the original hardware. Ram latency is only one element in the process. I dont see any real issues. HBM2 or even GDDR5X should easily cover it with maybe a thin emulation layer for the old RAM setup.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Latency is the issue, not bandwidth. ESRAM has ultra low latency because, by definition, it's on chip. I'm not sure what they can do to get around that.

Apparently they can:

From Yu Zheng;
Project ‘G’/Project ‘K’, Semi-Customer project with Game Console clients.

As customer driven projects, those has extremely tight schedule and tough signoff criteria. As deployment lead, leading a team of 4 and finished successful delivery of A0/A1 sample. Client projects specially requires binary back-compatibility with previous generation of game console which brings in 3 different operation mode for verification work load, we managed to leverage regression automation and using scripting to do pre-process and post-process of regression logs and debug by priority, we managed to meet every milestone on time and with quality.

I don't know how they manage it; Faster CPU (eExcavator 1.5 times IPC), better more efficient 2 meg L2 cache to HBM2 @ 1TB/sec memory controller which is overkill for a 130 watt TDP GPU? HBM is needed in Vega for two reasons, Network standby power levels and the power saved in not using GDDR5 can be used by the GPU to up it's size still at 130 watts for the package. This is how Vega can support 6TF and Polaris only 4TF at about the same TDP.

 

[Zedox]

Sure, that is a marketing problem. Especially since they also allegedly have a "puck" type device to compete with those as well at the $150 range. People at this point don't give two poops about the Win 10 store. You aren't selling a device based on that.

It would make sense if it came with a Xbox One controller though.

 

[longdi]

I think ms selected the more powerful little Vega for Scorpio, while Sony is going to use Polaris 10. Something of a switched from last time around. The critical part, will be whether ms can launch Scorpio within a quarter behind Neo, if they could, then they would win the specs waving and hardcore gamers hearts.

If they couldn't, Sony is free to sell their Neo as a ps4+, same $399 launch price, and continue to race away. Being a year late with Scorpio leaves it in a limbo spot IMO. The mid-upgrade cycle heat is over by then.

 

[Bgamer90]

I'm really surprised how so many Gaffers seem to forget that PS2 received major push with all the Singstar causal type of games. Sony was going for moms and dads and grannys before Wii was launched.

Yeah -- Singstar, Eye Toy, BUZZ!, etc.; And it made sense due to the PS2 selling so well. Sony had to branch out to other demographics since pretty much every regular gamer during the time owned a PS2. Xbox 360's casual push alongside Kinect was for similar reasons during its respective time.

 

[dragonelite]

I think ms selected the more powerful little Vega for Scorpio, while Sony is going to use Polaris 10. Something of a switched from last time around. The critical part, will be whether ms can launch Scorpio within a quarter behind Neo, if they could, then they would win the specs waving and hardcore gamers hearts.

If they couldn't, Sony is free to sell their Neo as a ps4+, same $399 launch price, and continue to race away. Being a year late with Scorpio leaves it in a limbo spot IMO. The mid-upgrade cycle heat is over by then.

If im not mistaken 2017 is also a halo/forza motorsport year. Their biggest IPs as launch title should help and make forza also a VR showcase game.

As a big halo fan it already warrants a scorpio preorder.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Sorry pal, but I feel completely different about this. We'll reach fanboy console warz climax in the next few years. There will be casualties - I'm not sure if Nintendo as a console manufacturer will survive all of this. We'll even have console civil warz where Playstation Neo users will bash the OG PS 4 peasants and so on.

Nintendo isn't soley a console manufacturer/dev house anymore. Amiibo is just the start. Movies, theme parks, mobile that's where they are moving towards. It's pretty clear they are going to expand into a entertainment brand whether the hardcore like it or not.

As for console civil wars, yeah maybe some idiots on forums might continue their nonsense. But it's pretty clear at this point that that audience is a niche within a niche. Places like this, and the online media that feeds us is pretty much dead. The future is YouTube influencers and whatnot, which by their very nature spilt even the most hardcore so far up that their voices become statistical noise. With Games as a service pretty much taking over, you are much more likely to find franchise or even title fanboys than hardware ones.

Second point: this isn't happy hippo land where MS, Sony and Nintendo will end up holding hands. There is absolutely no indication that the console market has grown overall or will grow because of incremental upgrades. Maybe people will buy a secondary console as consequence, but I can also see people staying in their ecosystem and committing fully to it. Meaning, if you have to buy a new upgrade every 2-3 years now, no way the majority will be able to afford a second console.

Nobody said it was happy hippo land. Everybody wants to be the one that's top of the class, if only for the simple reason of placating investors.

However, the big 3 are moving away from trying to compete at what someone else is the market leader at, because you just end up throwing good money and alienating the Fanbase that made you successful in the first place

Nintendo is not going to make a console for the AAA industry, which would mean their own titles have to jump up in dev time, budget and risk all the cookie cutter design shortcuts.

Microsoft is done trying to localise and push Xbox in markets that to be successful they need to invest far more money and time that is feasible. They are all about the market they do have now, the English speaking one.

Sony is done greenlighting AAA halo killer software, electing to use that money for partnerships with companies that already make that kind of stuff. I doubt we will see a AAA shooter especially from Sony ever again.


What that means in practical terms is people who would normally go to one console as their one stop shop for everything may have to consider a secondary one now. The big 3 are obviously OK with that and will have offerings at lower price points to support that. If people don't want to do that, it's totally fine as well. Options are there and that's the main thing.

Playstation 2 wants to have a word with you, sir. I'm really surprised how so many Gaffers seem to forget that PS2 received major push with all the Singstar causal type of games. Sony was going for moms and dads and grannys before Wii was launched.
There was a PS2 in nearly every household around me at that time. This was also a important reason why the PS2 sales didn't drop off as consoles normally do when a new model arrives.

The market conditions that made the PS2 a success will never be replicated, even with VR. It's a far different world and it's about time people just accepted that. There will never again be a console that ruled the roost both for the casual and hardcore ever again, even if the PS4 outsells it.

 

[Chris1]

If im not mistaken 2017 is also a halo/forza motorsport year. Their biggest IPs as launch title should help and make forza also a VR showcase game.

As a big halo fan it already warrants a scorpio preorder.

Halo is 2018, 2017 could be halo 3 anniversary but that doesn't really count

 

[Zedox]

What's going to be very interesting is what is said at E3. Sony has some to out and say stuff for the PS4K obviously but MS doesn't necessarily. MS is going first so it's going to be interesting what they say and what Sony says to basically "counter" it. Sony is in a good position for coming second but MS has the advantage of coming out later with Scorpio. That's why I don't think so much will be said for MS because E3 MS isn't in a great position (console comes out second and anything they say can be countered).

Exciting times ahead.

 

[GhostTrick]

What's going to be very interesting is what is said at E3. Sony has some to out and say stuff for the PS4K obviously but MS doesn't necessarily. MS is going first so it's going to be interesting what they say and what Sony says to basically "counter" it. Sony is in a good position for coming second but MS has the advantage of coming out later with Scorpio. That's why I don't think so much will be said for MS because E3 MS isn't in a great position (console comes out second and anything they say can be countered).

Exciting times ahead.

To be fair, I don't really see what's exciting with MS and Sony releasing more powerful consoles. Especially on Microsoft's side, considering they keep heading into the wrong direction.

 

[krang]

If im not mistaken 2017 is also a halo/forza motorsport year. Their biggest IPs as launch title should help and make forza also a VR showcase game.

As a big halo fan it already warrants a scorpio preorder.

A good plan. The benchmark there isn't particularly high, apparently.

 

[Zedox]

To be fair, I don't really see what's exciting with MS and Sony releasing more powerful consoles. Especially on Microsoft's side, considering they keep heading into the wrong direction.

Uhm, more powerful consoles, prettier games, snappier consoles, more things that can be achieved on the consoles.

MS is heading in the wrong direction? Please explain...

 

[Markoman]

What's going to be very interesting is what is said at E3. Sony has some to out and say stuff for the PS4K obviously but MS doesn't necessarily. MS is going first so it's going to be interesting what they say and what Sony says to basically "counter" it. Sony is in a good position for coming second but MS has the advantage of coming out later with Scorpio. That's why I don't think so much will be said for MS because E3 MS isn't in a great position (console comes out second and anything they say can be countered).

Exciting times ahead.

Yeah, it's going to be crazy...

Btw: would it be technically possible for Sony to have like plan A/B conferences depending on what MS does? For example having a certain segment of the show (Neo) exchanged with another one hours before?

 

[GhostTrick]

Uhm, more powerful consoles, prettier games, snappier consoles, more things that can be achieved on the consoles.

MS is heading in the wrong direction? Please explain...

Sure thing. Basically, Microsoft believe W10 is going to be an appealing ecosystem with the wrong integration. They're 10 years too late. Their plan is to make Windows 10 the core of everything, revolving around UWP and W10 Store. The right direction would've been opening their devices more, not less. XB1 and Xbox devices would've been far more appealing devices if they were basically Home PCs, able to run any x86 programs. Instead, the point is to bring Xbox experience, aka a closed experience to PC and unify everything, which results in a late, barebone and unappealing experience.

So I don't really see what's exciting for something more powerful but still heading in the wrong direction. Basically reminds me of Surface 1 and 2, the RT models. There's a reason why Surface 3 was a far more popular product. Surface 1 and 2 are basically closed and unappealing Windows experiences while 3 basically made the cheaper model more open with a real Windows experience.

 

[Zedox]

Yeah, it's going to be crazy...

Btw: would it be technically possible for Sony to have like plan A/B conferences depending on what MS does? For example having a certain segment of the show (Neo) exchanged with another one hours before?

Yes. I think that's what they did when Microsoft announced their price for XBO. I think they cut the price (along with the camera) to be $100 cheaper. It would be the smartest thing to do. I think they probably learned from PS3 price and seeing where the competition was coming from.

 

[RowdyReverb]

This. Sony has a history of dealing with generations where stronger systems come out to compete with them.

This is true, but those generations weren't as focused on third party multiplatform titles. We have a generation now where both platforms play pretty much the same set of games but with different IQ

 

[...Scatter...]

This is why I think Xbox will never come back to the top spot. Sony got lucky that it's upgrades from now on which means, the ecosystem and userbase people are used to matters. People's games and online communities being intact.

For example as a PS4 owner someone may have a level 40 Destiny character and friends on Playstation. Or may have a hist if friends they play COD with on Playstation. To suddenly switch to Scorpio and buy Destiny again, start over leveling a character and find new friends or get all friends to migrate.

It's a impossible task for Microsoft. On top of this all MS doesn't have the huge exclusives to sway people.

As long as I get a powerful console and all the third party games I don't care if they're first or second place. Just give me my enthusiast box that focuses on games and the best experience. Just like OG XBOX and 360.

 

[gamz]

Sure thing. Basically, Microsoft believe W10 is going to be an appealing ecosystem with the wrong integration. They're 10 years too late. Their plan is to make Windows 10 the core of everything, revolving around UWP and W10 Store. The right direction would've been opening their devices more, not less. XB1 and Xbox devices would've been far more appealing devices if they were basically Home PCs, able to run any x86 programs. Instead, the point is to bring Xbox experience, aka a closed experience to PC and unify everything, which results in a late, barebone and unappealing experience.

So I don't really see what's exciting for something more powerful but still heading in the wrong direction. Basically reminds me of Surface 1 and 2, the RT models. There's a reason why Surface 3 was a far more popular product. Surface 1 and 2 are basically closed and unappealing Windows experiences while 3 basically made the cheaper model more open with a real Windows experience.

Huh? Surface 1 and 2 were just as open as 3. I think you are thinking the Surface RT which was released along side of Surface 1.

 

[JaggedSac]

What's going to be very interesting is what is said at E3. Sony has some to out and say stuff for the PS4K obviously but MS doesn't necessarily. MS is going first so it's going to be interesting what they say and what Sony says to basically "counter" it. Sony is in a good position for coming second but MS has the advantage of coming out later with Scorpio. That's why I don't think so much will be said for MS because E3 MS isn't in a great position (console comes out second and anything they say can be countered).

Exciting times ahead.

Yeah, super exciting. Seems like the wild west out there right now, lol.

It would make sense if it came with a Xbox One controller though.

Yep, that would be a great value add to that thing.

 

[GhostTrick]

Huh? Surface 1 and 2 were just as open as 3. I think you are thinking the Surface RT which was released along side of Surface 1.

No. You're the one who's thinking Surface Pro 1 and Surface Pro 2
Surface 1 and 2 were the RT models. Pro were the x86 Windows model. Surface 3 though killed the RT models and shifted to Atom instead of ARM while Pro 3 kept the i3/i5/i7 ones.

 

[gamz]

No. You're the one who's thinking Surface Pro 1 and Surface Pro 2
Surface 1 and 2 were the RT models. Pro were the x86 Windows model. Surface 3 though killed the RT models and shifted to Atom instead of ARM while Pro 3 kept the i3/i5/i7 ones.

Yeah, yeah I was just in the process of changing my post. I forgot they released RT on Surface 2. I thought they killed it after 1.

 

[heidern]

Sony and Microsoft would likely be happy with just a split of the pie, but the NX imminent launch has driven them to leak details of future consoles which do not exist yet. There are also no clear launch dates for these endeavors, so why is this information important? Why do Sony and MS need to do this now?

MS are doing it because Sony are doing it. Sony are doing it because they don't want to risk losing their dominance in a transition to a new generation. A proper new generation offers a large change in hardware capability which offers a impactful difference to the gamer and can generate lots of hype. New generations also mean you start from zero userbase and typically around 15 games.

Sony don't want that because MS instantly catch up in userbase and library and might be the ones to benefit from the hype. So instead they go for modest updates that are an expansion on the existing userbase/library due to backwards and forwards compatibility. Because they're modest they don't make much impact, because they don't make much impact things stay similar to how they already are i.e Sony dominant.

 

[geordiemp]

I think all of this has come about due to the Nintendo NX. Certainly, it makes sense for Nintendo, as they have had lackluster performance with the Wii U. Ending their console generation early makes sense. And its likely, the NX will approximate the power of both PS4 and XboxOne and level the field.

Sony and Microsoft would likely be happy with just a split of the pie, but the NX imminent launch has driven them to leak details of future consoles which do not exist yet. There are also no clear launch dates for these endeavors, so why is this information important? Why do Sony and MS need to do this now?

You really are in cookoo land lol. Do you really think that ?

Nintendo has 10 million console users, Sony and MS are at 60 million already. Nintendo are not in the race, at all and Sony / MS dont really care what Nintendo do as Nintendo are almost in a different market. Nintendo will double down on mobile and handheld and dabble in console, but cant see them being a player in the console race.

Sony and MS have said nothing, these are leaks. The reason there are leaks is that Sony and MS tend to be very open with 3rd parties...and why Nintendo will be in their own world.

Nintendo wont compete in the console power race, remember Nintendo like profits, they will build cheap and sell high, or so they always keep saying.

 

[Zedox]

Sure thing. Basically, Microsoft believe W10 is going to be an appealing ecosystem with the wrong integration. They're 10 years too late. Their plan is to make Windows 10 the core of everything, revolving around UWP and W10 Store. The right direction would've been opening their devices more, not less. XB1 and Xbox devices would've been far more appealing devices if they were basically Home PCs, able to run any x86 programs. Instead, the point is to bring Xbox experience, aka a closed experience to PC and unify everything, which results in a late, barebone and unappealing experience.

So I don't really see what's exciting for something more powerful but still heading in the wrong direction. Basically reminds me of Surface 1 and 2, the RT models. There's a reason why Surface 3 was a far more popular product. Surface 1 and 2 are basically closed and unappealing Windows experiences while 3 basically made the cheaper model more open with a real Windows experience.

What you are saying is just to make an Xbox a gaming PC. We do already have that market and OEMs are making those PCs, and bringing the Xbox games through UWP gets the users the "xbox games". So what would be the point of having an Xbox at that point if you think it is more appealing to "regular" users to just have a gaming PC running Windows 10?

What I do think is possible is the Xbox turning into a Surface RT type of device. Meaning it would have "continuum" mode for only apps on the Windows Store that require a keyboard and mouse and be a "PC". I don't think that they would do it but I wouldn't put it past them (especially with the Stick device).

I just don't think running x86 apps on the XBO would make sense to a general consumer, especially when they are trying to get away from x86 apps and trying to get apps on the Windows Store.

But that is your opinion and I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't see the appeal of it to general consumers. I mean, I could see "be productive and play" on the same box, but I don't know how they would market that.

 

[Evazan]

I really don't see a scenario where MS isn't kind of hosed because of X1. If they release in 2017 with Scorpio what exclusive game is going to drive that adoption especially with them embracing PC now as well. They don't have a catalog of IP that is that strong anymore and will be further diminished by it being available on PC. If they are hoping Occulus Support will save them they will be over a year late to the party. X1 sales will continue to diminish and with the announcement of Scorpio will fall off a cliff. Because the online communities are carrying over from this Gen people are staying where their friends are. Yeah I think MS is really in a bad spot

 

[gamz]

What you are saying is just to make an Xbox a gaming PC. We do already have that market and OEMs are making those PCs, and bringing the Xbox games through UWP gets the users the "xbox games". So what would be the point of having an Xbox at that point if you think it is more appealing to "regular" users to just have a gaming PC running Windows 10?

What I do think is possible is the Xbox turning into a Surface RT type of device. Meaning it would have "continuum" mode for only apps on the Windows Store that require a keyboard and mouse and be a "PC". I don't think that they would do it but I wouldn't put it past them (especially with the Stick device).

I just don't think running x86 apps on the XBO would make sense to a general consumer, especially when they are trying to get away from x86 apps and trying to get apps on the Windows Store.

But that is your opinion and I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't see the appeal of it to general consumers. I mean, I could see "be productive and play" on the same box, but I don't know how they would market that.

Malware and Virus on a Xbox Console sounds all kinds of awful. Which is what would happened with a open system.

 

[GhostTrick]

What you are saying is just to make an Xbox a gaming PC. We do already have that market and OEMs are making those PCs, and bringing the Xbox games through UWP gets the users the "xbox games". So what would be the point of having an Xbox at that point if you think it is more appealing to "regular" users to just have a gaming PC running Windows 10?

What I do think is possible is the Xbox turning into a Surface RT type of device. Meaning it would have "continuum" mode for only apps on the Windows Store that require a keyboard and mouse and be a "PC". I don't think that they would do it but I wouldn't put it past them (especially with the Stick device).

I just don't think running x86 apps on the XBO would make sense to a general consumer, especially when they are trying to get away from x86 apps and trying to get apps on the Windows Store.



But that is your opinion and I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't see the appeal of it to general consumers. I mean, I could see "be productive and play" on the same box, but I don't know how they would market that.

Because these OEM represent really niche and expensive brands. There's a reason why the only popular attempt at that was Alienware with the Alpha and before the X51. The appeal for Microsoft is to bring Windows under TVs, with a cheap and decent specced off the shelve PC. It's basically keeping the console experience but with the PC openess. The appeal is about form factor this is we're moving into an ecosystem logic: Form factors. Think of it: Why Surface 3 is popular while 1 and 2 failed ? Because Surface 3 is a successful way of making an ecosystem working: It's offering the same experience as Pro 3, but in a smaller size and a less powerful specs, but it's still offering it.

Surface 1 and 2 offered a lesser experience. And this is what Xbox is about to be: A Windows RT gaming PC. Less appealing with a lesser experience. And yes, to general consumers, there's an appeal to be able to run all your PC programs. Because x86 represents the Windows ecosystem: Millions of programs.

Malware and Virus on a Xbox Console sounds all kinds of awful. Which is what would happened with a open system.

Malware and virus is an old, tired argument. It all comes down to how you used your device. If people are doing a fair use of their device, they're not exposed to risks.

 

[seanoff]

i know its probably been answered but isnt a 6TF SOC going to be expensive even in 2017?

i mean its a 980 they arent cheap and still wont be next year

 

[LukasTaves]

Of course it is only memory but special memory that is on-die. It has very good speeds even with concurrent access patterns. Also it uses as a very fast scratch-pad for developers and has more use-cases than usual ram.

By only memory I mean, it's equally accessible by the gpu just like the rest of the memory. It definitely makes everything faster when the gpu is accessing it, but from a development point of view it requires no special code to use it. All the esram related code is prepping up data so you can fit as much as possible on the esram.

If they have a large pool of faster memory there are many things they can do at a system level to keep compatibility with old titles, and any performance degradation due latency can be make up by everything else being faster.

 

[gamz]

Because these OEM represent really niche and expensive brands. There's a reason why the only popular attempt at that was Alienware with the Alpha and before the X51. The appeal for Microsoft is to bring Windows under TVs, with a cheap and decent specced off the shelve PC. It's basically keeping the console experience but with the PC openess. The appeal is about form factor this is we're moving into an ecosystem logic: Form factors. Think of it: Why Surface 3 is popular while 1 and 2 failed ? Because Surface 3 is a successful way of making an ecosystem working: It's offering the same experience as Pro 3, but in a smaller size and a less powerful specs, but it's still offering it.

Surface 1 and 2 offered a lesser experience. And this is what Xbox is about to be: A Windows RT gaming PC. Less appealing with a lesser experience. And yes, to general consumers, there's an appeal to be able to run all your PC programs. Because x86 represents the Windows ecosystem: Millions of programs.







Malware and virus is an old, tired argument. It all comes down to how you used your device. If people are doing a fair use of their device, they're not exposed to risks.

Right. Easy for you and I to say that but you are talking kids on these things. That would be a disaster.

 

[GhostTrick]

i know its probably been answered but isnt a 6TF SOC going to be expensive even in 2017?

i mean its a 980 they arent cheap and still wont be next year

It's because you're making the wrong comparison. I don't know why the heck when people hear Tflops from console, they instantly want to compare to Nvidia's offering on PC. Compare AMD with AMD, especially when it's the same architecture. 6TF is roughly an R9 290x/390x clocked at 1075 Mhz.

Right. Easy for you and I to say that but you are talking kids on these things. That would be a disaster.

Kids use computers. Kids use Android tablets which are as exposed to malware and virus. If kids stick to just play video games and browse the internet casually, I don't see where the risk lies. That's the point of the Metro UI after all. Pop in the disk, or just use the Metro programs. Now if kids browse on the internet for illegal downloads or porn... the issue is somewhere else.

 

[gus-gus]

Sure thing. Basically, Microsoft believe W10 is going to be an appealing ecosystem with the wrong integration. They're 10 years too late. Their plan is to make Windows 10 the core of everything, revolving around UWP and W10 Store. The right direction would've been opening their devices more, not less. XB1 and Xbox devices would've been far more appealing devices if they were basically Home PCs, able to run any x86 programs. Instead, the point is to bring Xbox experience, aka a closed experience to PC and unify everything, which results in a late, barebone and unappealing experience.

So I don't really see what's exciting for something more powerful but still heading in the wrong direction. Basically reminds me of Surface 1 and 2, the RT models. There's a reason why Surface 3 was a far more popular product. Surface 1 and 2 are basically closed and unappealing Windows experiences while 3 basically made the cheaper model more open with a real Windows experience.

I don't get it though, isn't your basis off of what happened in the past. This console or it's vision (or specs) are not even known yet. We have an idea, but still don't know what they have up their sleeve. As a fan of gaming in general, there's plenty to be excited about. I'm sure you don't mean harm, I just feel like there's always a negative sentiment about anything Microsoft or Nintendo these days.

 

[Bgamer90]

I really don't see a scenario where MS isn't kind of hosed because of X1. If they release in 2017 with Scorpio what exclusive game is going to drive that adoption especially with them embracing PC now as well.

What exclusive game has greatly driven the sales of current gen consoles this gen so far? The top selling true exclusives have been on the Wii U but that system has sold terribly.

 

[GhostTrick]

I don't get it though, isn't your basis off of what happened in the past. This console or it's vision (or specs) are not even known yet. We have an idea, but still don't know what they have up their sleeve. As a fan of gaming in general, there's plenty to be excited about. I'm sure you don't mean harm, I just feel like there's always a negative sentiment about anything Microsoft or Nintendo these days.

Past and present. I'm analysing Microsoft's current trajectory or moves. Of course I'm not saying they can't change that or that they won't. I'm just saying I fail to see what's exciting considering the direction they're taking. Unrelated exemple but to express it: Driving toward a wall will end in disaster. If you keep driving this way you'll crash. It doesn't mean you can't turn right or left, but if you keep heading this way, it'll happen.

What exclusive game has greatly driven the sales of current gen consoles this gen so far? The top selling true exclusives have been on the Wii U but that system has sold terribly.

Exclusives drive sales though. They're not the biggest sellers, but they generate hype and helps you differentiate with your competitor. Because if you don't differentiate, it'll all comes down to hardware and price.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

It's because you're making the wrong comparison. I don't know why the heck when people hear Tflops from console, they instantly want to compare to Nvidia's offering on PC. Compare AMD with AMD, especially when it's the same architecture. 6TF is roughly an R9 290x/390x clocked at 1075 Mhz.

Even comparing with current AMD is wrong until we know what these chips are based on. I'm almost 100% sure they will be Polaris (or tiny possibility Scorpio is Vega) based.

We have no idea how much these new chips have improved in perf/watt and more importantly general architecture, barring leaks, until the NDA/embargo lifts in a month or if AMD start talking at Computex in the next week.

 

[GhostTrick]

Even comparing with current AMD is wrong until we know what these chips are based on. I'm almost 100% sure they will be Polaris (or tiny possibility Scorpio is Vega) based.

We have no idea how much these new chips have improved in perf/watt and more importantly general architecture, barring leaks, until the NDA/embargo lifts in a month or if AMD start talking at Computex in the next week.

Likely around x2 perf/watt.

 

[Bgamer90]

Exclusives drive sales though. They're not the biggest sellers, but they generate hype and helps you differentiate with your competitor. Because if you don't differentiate, it'll all comes down to hardware and price.

They definitely help sales, no doubt about that -- but this gen has shown that they are greatly going down in importance outside of exclusive titles that are from already well established franchises.

 

[GhostTrick]

They definitely help sales, no doubt about that -- but this gen has shown that they are greatly going down in importance outside of exclusive titles that are from already well established franchises.

Truth is, this gen has shown a clearly step down in term of exclusives. Less sales but also far less exclusives.

 

[gus-gus]

Past and present. I'm analysing Microsoft's current trajectory or moves. Of course I'm not saying they can't change that or that they won't. I'm just saying I fail to see what's exciting considering the direction they're taking. Unrelated exemple but to express it: Driving toward a wall will end in disaster. If you keep driving this way you'll crash. It doesn't mean you can't turn right or left, but if you keep heading this way, it'll happen.





Exclusives drive sales though. They're not the biggest sellers, but they generate hype and helps you differentiate with your competitor. Because if you don't differentiate, it'll all comes down to hardware and price.

I'm sorry I don't agree with that, xbox one has done things right. If they unify and clean things up like the windows store, it'll be the better of the 3 ecosystems. However saying that I don't know the direction of the other companies so it would be difficult to claim this. Just doing things now with the xbox I can see so much potential.

Using the time warner app allowed me to get rid of cable boxes in my house and just have an xbox one instead of renting a device every month from time warner. That's a huge savings for me.

I rented a movie the other day watched the first half on my xbox, switched to a different room and finished watching on my pc. The little things like that make life easier.

Yeah I know they lack in the exclusive and more developed first party, but I'm ok with that.

I use each system to their strengths, but a more powerful complete xbox is far more useful to me the other consoles. Most of the first party exclusive stuff this gen has really done it for me. That goes for all 3 companies, the third party stuff has been more enticing.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Likely around x2 perf/watt.

That is the claim, yes. It is the architecture improvements I'm more interested in.

 

[GhostTrick]

I'm sorry I don't agree with that, xbox one has done things right. If they unify and clean things up like the windows store, it'll be the better of the 3 ecosystems. However saying that I don't know the direction of the other companies so it would be difficult to claim this. Just doing things now with the xbox I can see so much potential.

Using the time warner app allowed me to get rid of cable boxes in my house and just have an xbox one instead of renting a device every month from time warner. That's a huge savings for me.

I rented a movie the other day watched the first half on my xbox, switched to a different room and finished watching on my pc. The little things like that make life easier.

Yeah I know they lack in the exclusive and more developed first party, but I'm ok with that.

I use each system to their strengths, but a more powerful complete xbox is far more useful to me the other consoles. Most of the first party exclusive stuff this gen has really done it for me. That goes for all 3 companies, the third party stuff has been more enticing.

Guenine and honest question: In which country do you live ?