WrenchNinja
Member
Man the story really sounds like shit. I don't remember Human Revolution's story that well but I don't feel it painted eveything as grey.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Feminist Frequency: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Review
- Thread starter lightskintwin
- Start date
EVA UNIT 01
Member
[HP];214720557 said:
But what do you really think?
Snkfanatic
Banned
[HP];214720557 said:
Thanks for letting us know.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Shame they didn't like it too much. To play a mechanically sound game but be turned off by its tone and content must be frustrating.
People make threads for Jim Sterling reviews?
People make threads for Jim Sterling reviews?
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
This is what I feared from way back to when they started talking about the augmented apartheid thing. I don't think that repurposing the BLM narrative is particularly a bad idea since it keeps things relatable and in focus but you can't go around painting this shot in shades of grey if you're going to try and do social commentary.
Showing that the augs are a legitimate potential threat to non augs is definitely the part where's their narrative kinda falters.
You want to make augs sympathetic so rebelling against the establishment feels like a war worth waging. Having the ARC be kinda terrorists but kinda the good guys just feels like a weak attempt at writing depth but the end result feels like it might have just come off as shallow or non commital.
I will have to play it to completion to actually have a full take on this review though.
edit: wow I just skimmed through the thread and there are only like 4 posts above mine discussing the topics raised in the OPs video...
Showing that the augs are a legitimate potential threat to non augs is definitely the part where's their narrative kinda falters.
You want to make augs sympathetic so rebelling against the establishment feels like a war worth waging. Having the ARC be kinda terrorists but kinda the good guys just feels like a weak attempt at writing depth but the end result feels like it might have just come off as shallow or non commital.
I will have to play it to completion to actually have a full take on this review though.
edit: wow I just skimmed through the thread and there are only like 4 posts above mine discussing the topics raised in the OPs video...
Garrett Hawke
Member
The Bechdel test
it's useful for measuring the amount of female characters in a work but that's about it, as you can have very feminist films that don't pass it and very non-feminist films that do pass it. As an example, Transformers passes it yet there's the Megan Fox bike scene.
However from some impressions in this thread it does seem like the review focuses heavily on the social aspects of the game which is good, as that is probably going to be a relatively unique take on it.
bobbychalkers
Member
The story sounds incredibly clumsy in how it uses discrimination as a theme...even for a videogame.
[HP];214720557 said:
ViciousAnchovy
Member
The review doesn't delve deep into the gameplay, but it does in fact look at the social issues in as much detail as is appropriate for a review that's targeted toward an audience that hasn't played the game. The review sets out the issues present in the game and how they mirror real-world issues, and then explains how the game's setting and key players send conflicting messages.
As others have already said, men can be feminists too. Based on your comment, however, I feel like it may be worth mentioning that feminism is about equality among the sexes and even the races, even if there may radical feminists who might have given you the impression that this isn't the case.
Jacethemindtaker
Neo Member
While I think it's a well written review and I can understand her points, I don't agree with her stance on 'taking sides' as it were. Complaining about lack of moral certainty and calling it 'grey' is, for a lack of a better definition, realistic. You can claim that there are moral absolutes but time shows that there are not - and dealing with subjects such as the ones that Mankind Divided attempts, and apparently fails, to deal with - this should be taken into consideration.
Given her background and interests I can see where she's coming from and I agree that it needs more focus and better, and deeper, storytelling but moral absolutes are not what it needs.
*shrug*
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the review but that's what I took from it.
Given her background and interests I can see where she's coming from and I agree that it needs more focus and better, and deeper, storytelling but moral absolutes are not what it needs.
*shrug*
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the review but that's what I took from it.
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah the marketing was really stupid and shot the game in the foot and yeah "ALM" was not the way to go. I haven't played the game so I can't comment on the supposedly shades of grey that the issues are portrayed in the game, but I don't really doubt it's not the best approach possible. She doesn't go in depth in this discussion though, she doesn't mention other examples of fictional work that talk about a similar issue, or bring anything from the dev team explaining their choices, or tell you anything you didn't know previously. Which is not exclusive to her, a lot of reviewers do this, but I think this is just the thing that could lead to deeper discussions than just someone being outraged by a somewhat insensitive narrative choice.
In case you wondered why and not just concerntrolling like it always happens in these threads.
He can't.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I think the issue is that by drawing a parallel to the BLM movement which is obviously focused on the treatment of people of colour but replacing PoCs with "augs" - some/many of whom form a terrorist group and main antagonist force in the game - it demonizes "augs"; and then when that parallel is drawn back to the real world it becomes an issue.
There aren't really shades of grey when it comes to the real life treatment of PoCs so using that imagery comes across as a "both sides" kind of viewpoint which is very dismissive of people's suffering, particularly when there will be a minority on one side and a majority on the other side that is doing harm but they are treated as equivalents.
Alpha Centauri
Member
Completely disagree with the premise that the game fails to take a side as a negative. Giving you the option to be a rough and tumble law-abiding agent or one with sympathies is a bonus to me.
Also disagree with the idea that these parallels between Augmented lives and abuse of minorities in real life is unfounded. Bigots have always used an "incident" to justify their hatred, and it doesn't matter if it is on a municipal or global level. Bigotry is bigotry, and what is happening to the augmented in mankind divided is a great allegory (if a bit hamfisted I will admit). Her answer boils down to 'They deserve it, look at the incident so don't compare it to real life'. That may be her opinion, but it says more about her starting point in seeing minority groups that have a crime contingent.
There is a level of privilege to her tone and argument, and I'm not saying this ironically or sarcastically. It's the same kind that will look at a crime infested area like chicago inner-city and justify their views of black people everywhere accordingly.
Also disagree with the idea that these parallels between Augmented lives and abuse of minorities in real life is unfounded. Bigots have always used an "incident" to justify their hatred, and it doesn't matter if it is on a municipal or global level. Bigotry is bigotry, and what is happening to the augmented in mankind divided is a great allegory (if a bit hamfisted I will admit). Her answer boils down to 'They deserve it, look at the incident so don't compare it to real life'. That may be her opinion, but it says more about her starting point in seeing minority groups that have a crime contingent.
There is a level of privilege to her tone and argument, and I'm not saying this ironically or sarcastically. It's the same kind that will look at a crime infested area like chicago inner-city and justify their views of black people everywhere accordingly.
Poohblaster
Member
I actually prefer moral ambiguity in games more than clearly defined lines of good and bad.
In context of Mankind Divided's story line it makes sense for the non augmented humans to be suspicsous of augs because the augs killed 50 million people.
Would a story line that showed repression as clearly unjustified and wrong really be more interesting than the one in the game? I don't believe so.
In context of Mankind Divided's story line it makes sense for the non augmented humans to be suspicsous of augs because the augs killed 50 million people.
Would a story line that showed repression as clearly unjustified and wrong really be more interesting than the one in the game? I don't believe so.
How did Aug Live Matters even make it into this game?
I don't fully understand their criticism (haven't played the game). But what is wrong in using real world elements in a fictional piece? Fictional works often don't represent the real world 1:1.
While they put in a disclaimer at the end of their review, they fail to actually elaborate on their criticism and properly explain it. Just based on their review and without having played the game, it seems like they are overanalysing a fictional story, and are than angry that it does not represent real-life issues properly.
They might be right with their criticism, but for such a review, they did not explain it well enough.
While they put in a disclaimer at the end of their review, they fail to actually elaborate on their criticism and properly explain it. Just based on their review and without having played the game, it seems like they are overanalysing a fictional story, and are than angry that it does not represent real-life issues properly.
They might be right with their criticism, but for such a review, they did not explain it well enough.
Coffee Dog
Banned
from what i can tell, it's on posters and stuff. background details.
Possible dumb-guy question: Is the "Aug Lives Matter" mantra in the game itself, or was it just used in marketing?
I have mixed feelings about it, and I have a general unease with a real-world social issue being used for a launch-board for flawed/lazy/poor writing in mass media. I don't know if that even applies here (I've read few reviews and haven't played the game yet).
Edit: Ah, background use. Gotcha.
I have mixed feelings about it, and I have a general unease with a real-world social issue being used for a launch-board for flawed/lazy/poor writing in mass media. I don't know if that even applies here (I've read few reviews and haven't played the game yet).
Edit: Ah, background use. Gotcha.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I don't think the issue is about the factions themselves being "morally grey", or even Jensen being "morally grey". The issue is this:
They link the ARC which is a very "morally grey" organisation with a significant violent component to the BLM movement, which is based around social progress rather than brutal force. This might then lead some people to get this opinion about BLM, or at least shape their opinion even a little bit. It's just lazy and a little exploitative.
The issue is less moral ambiguity and more moral ambiguity while drawing parallels to real situations that are less ambiguous.
Like let's say they had a game with a story that has a blatant 9-11 allegory with terrorists crashing a spaceship into a space station. The attackers' motives are portrayed as sympathetic and understandable so the situation is more morally ambiguous. Would that be a good decision, because it makes the situation more interesting? Or would it be a bad decision because the parallels to real life become dishonest?
Ulysses 31
Member
Haven't watched the review yet but did the words "white", "male", "privilege(d)" and "patriarchy" pop up? That's usually the case with 3rd wave feminism.
Can't say I agree with this at all. No fictional group with a similar mantra is going to make me apply my thoughts on their actions to the real life parallel. Honestly not sure who would.
Garrett Hawke
Member
no, but good post.
lightskintwin
Banned
How 'bout you watch the review?
Representation of people and groups in media affect the perception of said people and groups in the public all the time.
SomedayTheFire
Member
A+. Well done.
Okay. It's not the representation of the group in media. It's a completely different group with a similar mantra.
BRocknRolla
Member
There's an easy way to rectify your ignorance. If you want that of course.
lightskintwin
Banned
It's a misappropriated mantra that's poorly handled in game.
Garrett Hawke
Member
It's kind of up in the air at the moment. As an example, I can think of two studies specifically about how playing as PoC impacted people's thoughts on PoCs.
One found that playing as a black character and doing violent or negative things led people to think more negatively of PoCs, while another found that playing as PoCs actually "reduced implicit racial bias".
It's a complicated issue for sure but there is much more evidence to suggest that social o pinons can bleed through games far easier than something like violence.
Coffee Dog
Banned
It's not even a similar mantra. It's the same one. And it doesn't really fit the world of Deus Ex on anything more than an absolute surface cosmetic level. The lives of Augs aren't being thrown aside due to latent prejudice and systemic biases, but because they are viewed as accomplices to the murders of many millions of people.
Using the same language for what is a very different situation just comes off as lazy and hamfisted.
Supermanisdead
Member
i think exploring a morally ambiguous rights group is a fine theme, but when you start linking it to morally unambiguous real life groups, it rings as hamfisted and out-of-touch. reminds me a lot of that old xmen theme of using the word "mutie" as a slur for mutants. it was fine until they actually said "mutie = nigger" in the comics - just eyeroll inducing.
Poohblaster
Member
Agreed. A smarter move is to let the audience draw it's own parallels and not spell them out explicitly.
And they're banking on people making the connection to BLM. The game is clearly trying to draw really shitty parallels.When you consider the fact that a frightening amount of people actually consider BLM to be a terrorist group then things start to get messy.
Even if there were no biases that the game was unintentionally reinforcing, it's still really shitty to compare a group of oppressed people saying that their live matter just as much as white people to terrorists.
I'm not disagreeing with this, not sure why you're responding to me with that.
I'm disagreeing that seeing the ARC in this game might impact opinions or alter the way someone might view BLM.
Really good review. I admit that I began watching it with a preconceived notion of what I thought would be said but the points she brings up are different than what I expected and, whether or not you agree with them, are very interesting to think about.
On one hand I can totally see the thought process of the writer taking a lot of inspiration (to say the least) from things like BLM and using that as the backdrop for what's going on in the game. But I can totally see the reviewers point about how she is disappointed that the topics are presented but not really addressed in any deeper way.
On one hand I can totally see the thought process of the writer taking a lot of inspiration (to say the least) from things like BLM and using that as the backdrop for what's going on in the game. But I can totally see the reviewers point about how she is disappointed that the topics are presented but not really addressed in any deeper way.
Supermanisdead
Member
probably the name
They're part of the evil SJW cabal that are plotting to get video games outlawed worldwide. Duh.
Coffee Dog
Banned
ARC are very clearly not just terrorists. They have members both nonviolent and violent.
Dastardly Jerks
Banned
Haven't read your post, but did it use a bunch of cliche generic terms used to criticise feminism? That's usually the case whenever someone goes to critique it as a movement.