WrenchNinja
Member
Man the story really sounds like shit. I don't remember Human Revolution's story that well but I don't feel it painted eveything as grey.
[HP];214720557 said:I'll die of old age before clicking that link.
[HP];214720557 said:I'll die of old age before clicking that link.
Like we do with Sterling and Joe's reviews?
OK
The Bechdel testAgreed, although it takes so long to make normal videos like this in my experience - why not focus it through feminism? Even simple tests like the... What's it called, the simple "do any women talk with other women about non-male main character plots" test.
The possibilities are right there!
[HP];214720557 said:I'll die of old age before clicking that link.
Alright saved a few minutes of my life, thanks. I'm fine with people having issues with a game, I just need explanation of why.
It shows some cutscenes and some characters you may or may not know about. If you don't wanna watch it, the reviewer doesn't like it because he has issues with how oppression is shown in the game and feels like the gameplay is a step back from HR. She goes in 0 depth on both issues.
Are you sure, sounded like a male reviewer to me, was wondering why a man was working for a feminist site.
You're telling me that someone had issues with how oppression is conveyed in a game where their marketing has bluntly used "Aug Lives Matter" and "Mechanical Apartheid"?
Color me shocked.
Trying to skate uphill, moths to a flame, lemmings attracted by cliffs...some people just can't help themselvesWonder how fast someone will get banned in this thread...
[HP];214720557 said:I'll die of old age before clicking that link.
Deus Ex MANkind Divided- Triggered
Are you sure, sounded like a male reviewer to me, was wondering why a man was working for a feminist site.
Great youtube channel. No ratings and comments. They sure encourage conversations between users.
Tell us how you really feel.
I think the issue is that by drawing a parallel to the BLM movement which is obviously focused on the treatment of people of colour but replacing PoCs with "augs" - some/many of whom form a terrorist group and main antagonist force in the game - it demonizes "augs"; and then when that parallel is drawn back to the real world it becomes an issue.While I think it's a well written review and I can understand her points, I don't agree with her stance on 'taking sides' as it were. Complaining about lack of moral certainty and calling it 'grey' is, for a lack of a better definition, realistic. You can claim that there are moral absolutes but time shows that there are not - and dealing with subjects such as the ones that Mankind Divided attempts, and apparently fails, to deal with - this should be taken into consideration.
Given her background and interests I can see where she's coming from and I agree that it needs more focus and better, and deeper, storytelling but moral absolutes are not what it needs.
*shrug*
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the review but that's what I took from it.
Actually the first review I've seen that goes over the whole Aug Live Matters thing going on in the game. And shits on it.
How did Aug Live Matters even make it into this game?
Completely disagree with the premise that the game fails to take a side as a negative. Giving you the option to be a rough and tumble law-abiding agent or one with sympathies is a bonus to me.
Also disagree with the idea that these parallels between Augmented lives and abuse of minorities in real life is unfounded. Bigots have always used an "incident" to justify their hatred, and it doesn't matter if it is on a municipal or global level. Bigotry is bigotry, and what is happening to the augmented in mankind divided is a great allegory (if a bit hamfisted I will admit).
I don't think the issue is about the factions themselves being "morally grey", or even Jensen being "morally grey". The issue is this:I actually prefer moral ambiguity in games more than clearly defined lines of good and bad.
In context of Mankind Divided's story line it makes sense for the non augmented humans to be suspicsous of augs because the augs killed 50 million people.
Would a story line that showed repression as clearly unjustified and wrong really be more interesting than the one in the game? I don't believe so.
They link the ARC which is a very "morally grey" organisation with a significant violent component to the BLM movement, which is based around social progress rather than brutal force. This might then lead some people to get this opinion about BLM, or at least shape their opinion even a little bit. It's just lazy and a little exploitative.Emblematic of the game’s unwillingness to take a stand is the way it positions a group called ARC, or the Augmented Rights Coalition. Posters in the game that include the words “Augmented Lives Matter” explicitly link ARC to the contemporary American civil rights movement, Black Lives Matter, which arose in response to the very real, widespread, systematic dehumanization and murder of black people by police. It is simply outrageous for Mankind Divided to appropriate the language of this vital and necessary social justice movement for its own narrative, which has no moral backbone whatsoever, and to apply that language to a fictional organization that, like everything else in the world of Deus Ex, is neither just nor unjust, but resides somewhere in between.
Wonder how fast someone will get banned in this thread...
The issue is less moral ambiguity and more moral ambiguity while drawing parallels to real situations that are less ambiguous.I actually prefer moral ambiguity in games more than clearly defined lines of good and bad.
In context of Mankind Divided's story line it makes sense for the non augmented humans to be suspicsous of augs because the augs killed 50 million people.
Would a story line that showed repression as clearly unjustified and wrong really be more interesting than the one in the game? I don't believe so.
Completely disagree with the premise that the game fails to take a side as a negative. Giving you the option to be a rough and tumble law-abiding agent or one with sympathies is a bonus to me.
Also disagree with the idea that these parallels between Augmented lives and abuse of minorities in real life is unfounded. Bigots have always used an "incident" to justify their hatred, and it doesn't matter if it is on a municipal or global level. Bigotry is bigotry, and what is happening to the augmented in mankind divided is a great allegory (if a bit hamfisted I will admit). Her answer boils down to 'They deserve it, look at the incident so don't compare it to real life'. That may be her opinion, but it says more about her starting point in seeing minority groups that have a crime contingent.
There is a level of privilege to her tone and argument, and I'm not saying this ironically or sarcastically. It's the same kind that will look at a crime infested area like chicago inner-city and justify their views of black people everywhere accordingly.
Can't say I agree with this at all. No fictional group with a similar mantra is going to make me apply my thoughts on their actions to the real life parallel. Honestly not sure who would.I don't think the issue is about the factions themselves being "morally grey", or even Jensen being "morally grey". The issue is this:
They link the ARC which is a very "morally grey" organisation with a significant violent component to the BLM movement, which is based around social progress rather than brutal force. This might then lead some people to get this opinion about BLM, or at least shape their opinion even a little bit. It's just lazy and a little exploitative.
no, but good post.Haven't watched the review yet but did the words "white", "male", "privilege(d)" and "patriarchy" pop up? That's usually the case with 3rd wave feminism.
Haven't watched the review yet but did the words "white", "male", "privilege(d)" and "patriarchy" pop up? That's usually the case with 3rd wave feminism.
Can't say I agree with this at all. No fictional group with a similar mantra is going to make me apply my thoughts on their actions to the real life parallel. Honestly not sure who would.
A+. Well done.Haven't watched the review yet but did the words "white", "male", "privilege(d)" and "patriarchy" pop up? That's usually the case with 3rd wave feminism.
Okay. It's not the representation of the group in media. It's a completely different group with a similar mantra.Representation of people and groups in media affect the perception of said people and groups in the public all the time.
Haven't watched the review yet but did the words "white", "male", "privilege(d)" and "patriarchy" pop up? That's usually the case with 3rd wave feminism.
Okay. It's not the representation of the group in media. It's a completely different group with a similar mantra.
It's kind of up in the air at the moment. As an example, I can think of two studies specifically about how playing as PoC impacted people's thoughts on PoCs.Can't say I agree with this at all. No fictional group with a similar mantra is going to make me apply my thoughts on their actions to the real life parallel. Honestly not sure who would.
Okay. It's not the representation of the group in media. It's a completely different group with a similar mantra.
They link the ARC which is a very "morally grey" organisation with a significant violent component to the BLM movement, which is based around social progress rather than brutal force. This might then lead some people to get this opinion about BLM, or at least shape their opinion even a little bit. It's just lazy and a little exploitative.
Okay. It's not the representation of the group in media. It's a completely different group with a similar mantra.
It's a misappropriated mantra that's poorly handled in game.
I'm not disagreeing with this, not sure why you're responding to me with that.It's not even a similar mantra. It's the same one. And it doesn't really fit the world of Deus Ex on anything more than an absolute surface cosmetic level. The lives of Augs aren't being thrown aside due to latent prejudice and systemic biases, but because they are viewed as accomplices to the murders of many millions of people.
Using the same language for what is a very different situation just comes off as lazy and hamfisted.
What is it with Feminist Frequency that triggers people and causes them to act like complete asses?
What is it with Feminist Frequency that triggers people and causes them to act like complete asses?
And they're banking on people making the connection to BLM. The game is clearly trying to draw really shitty parallels.When you consider the fact that a frightening amount of people actually consider BLM to be a terrorist group then things start to get messy.
Even if there were no biases that the game was unintentionally reinforcing, it's still really shitty to compare a group of oppressed people saying that their live matter just as much as white people to terrorists.
Haven't watched the review yet but did the words "white", "male", "privilege(d)" and "patriarchy" pop up? That's usually the case with 3rd wave feminism.