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[xevis]

Honestly most games are exactly that. An impressive feat due to a huge effort with amazing elements that stand beside glaring flaws. I appreciate when both can be considered at once.

nobody cares how hard an artist (or anyone else) tries or how grand their intentions. we, as a society, for better or worse, reward results, not effort.

in the context of NMS i feel like if Kieghly wants to criticise the game for being misleading then he should do that without qualification. but he won't because he's not, seemingly, interested in that story at the expense of his relationship with Sean Murray. Ergo, Dorito Pope Journalism.

 

[Embearded]

Which I think it was a stupid mistake.

It might have been beneficial if they would have controlled a product more they heavily advertised.

Yeah it's pretty obvious that he should have got all the help he could from Sony. I respect his passion and his will to accomplish something on his own without any external help, but in the end he couldn't deliver what he promised and advertised.

 

[Cave Johnson]

Sony saying that they were treating NMS as a first party game is also a fact. Sony saying that Sean Murray didn't market the game correctly when Sony should have been in charge of that which they were due to them booking Murray and NMS on every single press conference for a whopping three minutes is also a fact. Murray went on talk shows and whatever else to promote the game. Hmmm, yeah, that's fucking Sony doing that shit. Not a 15 (I stand corrected according to Wikipedia) person independent studio. Anyone who believes that a small team like that deserves the blame more than the powerful multi-billion dollar company in Sony is dazed and confused.

As for Murray lying, that's EVERY fucking publisher, developer and studio. Give me a break. LOL. NMS had the marketing and huge brand power of Sony so sorry, to me, it's on them first and foremost. How about telling Murray to shutup? How about finding out how the progress was going? You know, things that you would assume a company as big as Sony would be doing considering the fact that they said numerous times that they were treating it as a first party game.

As usual, like with so many massive big publishers, why blame them? You know the ones with all the power and money when you can blame the little guys??? LOL.

Sony has to treat it as a First Party title as it is exclusve to the console platform. Do you know what else is going to be treated as a First Party title: Shenmue 3. Guess what? If that game failed to live up to the hype (I believe it won't) guess where the blame will lie?(**hint: not Sony). The idea that you will single out NMS for this scenario only tells us you're playing Devils advocate for the sake off and not backing up with substantial points.

It is quite clear that NMS is a partnership deal not a fully dependent one (see Order 1886, R&C) both of these games are not only marketed as a First Party title, they ARE First Party titles. Despite what you want to believe, these games are going to be different in terms of involvement from Sony. Case-in-point: The Order 1886 sequel will never see the light of day - NMS CAN, and now has new resources thanks to its massive sales success rate and Sony can't do a damn thing to stop that from happening false promises or not.

 

[Hibiki Kurosawa]

Extremely well said, Keighley. God I love this man. I felt smarter after watching that. I'm so glad he has this show on youtube.

Lmao. Sean is never coming back to that show.

Coming back?

 

[Elandyll]

I think the game being $60 was probably Sony's call since the game was exclusive and had retail presence. If it was a download, I don't think it'd cost more than $40.

Except that what Geof says in this very show contradicts that?
The idea "might" have come from Sony (we have no idea), but Sean M and HG embraced it altogether.

 

[Jebusman]

Sony saying that they were treating NMS as a first party game is also a fact. Sony saying that Sean Murray didn't market the game correctly when Sony should have been in charge of that which they were due to them booking Murray and NMS on every single press conference for a whopping three minutes is also a fact. Murray went on talk shows and whatever else to promote the game. Hmmm, yeah, that's fucking Sony doing that shit. Not a 15 (I stand corrected according to Wikipedia) person independent studio. Anyone who believes that a small team like that deserves the blame more than the powerful multi-billion dollar company in Sony is dazed and confused.

As for Murray lying, that's EVERY fucking publisher, developer and studio. Give me a break. LOL. NMS had the marketing and huge brand power of Sony so sorry, to me, it's on them first and foremost. How about telling Murray to shutup? How about finding out how the progress was going? You know, things that you would assume a company as big as Sony would be doing considering the fact that they said numerous times that they were treating it as a first party game.

As usual, like with so many massive big publishers, why blame them? You know the ones with all the power and money when you can blame the little guys??? LOL.

Can you point out to me on a doll where Sony touched you?

People have already told you (in previous threads) that Sony was only acting as the physical distributor for NMS (on PS4), and that Hello Games is officially both Developer and Publisher. Everything they have done is entirely on them.

All Sony did was make sure it didn't brick PS4s, and print physical disks.

 

[Jacksinthe]

Sony saying that they were treating NMS as a first party game is also a fact. Sony saying that Sean Murray didn't market the game correctly when Sony should have been in charge of that which they were due to them booking Murray and NMS on every single press conference for a whopping three minutes is also a fact. Murray went on talk shows and whatever else to promote the game. Hmmm, yeah, that's fucking Sony doing that shit. Not a 15 (I stand corrected according to Wikipedia) person independent studio. Anyone who believes that a small team like that deserves the blame more than the powerful multi-billion dollar company in Sony is dazed and confused.

As for Murray lying, that's EVERY fucking publisher, developer and studio. Give me a break. LOL. NMS had the marketing and huge brand power of Sony so sorry, to me, it's on them first and foremost. How about telling Murray to shutup? How about finding out how the progress was going? You know, things that you would assume a company as big as Sony would be doing considering the fact that they said numerous times that they were treating it as a first party game.

As usual, like with so many massive big publishers, why blame them? You know the ones with all the power and money when you can blame the little guys??? LOL.

Show me the proof where Sony dictated the terms of PR. Putting the weight of 1st party behind a team means giving them ACCESS to the help they need, not taking the wheel.

Putting support behind a game does not mean they are at the reigns. Don't be naive. *That's not how Sony works.

**No, every pub and developer does not lie. Again, naivety on display.

***Sony also didn't have "all the power" with this game.

I think there's a lot to read into the box art sticker red flag. Someone at Sony more than likely didn't know what was really going on at Hello Games because, again, ****Sony is very hands off. They help by offering assistance but at the same time, *****don't make any sudden moves without the developer requesting what they want.

*
**
***
****
*****:

Spoiler

using my own experiences with them as a platform partner and the experience of many of my friends in various studios and pubs.

So, again, post up those receipts and I'll make some popcorn, I can use a good laugh from coding through a headache this morning.

Note:

Spoiler

This isn't the first time Sony had a developer go south on them out of their control. This only makes it harder to form solid relationships for the rest of us partnered with them. I can assure you assessment and restructuring the "help" afforded 3rd party partners is almost a guarantee, to the detriment of honest developers.

 

[Seiniyta]

Except that what Geof says in this very show contradicts that?
The idea "might" have come from Sony (we have no idea), but Sean M and HG embraced it altogether.

One of the Sony cert requirements for retail is 60 dollars. It can be waived, but only if they feel like (like a lot with cert) or was it Microsoft >.>. Well, at least one of them have that.

 

[GoaThief]

Yeah, its okay to be let down by what the end product was and even be mad about it. However the manner in which some corners of the internet have expressed this are real fucking scummy.

Indeed, even on this very thread a few people are taking things too far.

The liklihood of perception change due to what Sean Murray does or doesn't say at any point down the line is very, very small.

No Man's Sky is an ambitious game made by an ambitious (and overreaching?) team initially as a pure passion project, and it's not bad. Maybe not great and definitely flawed at times but as Geoff says it's games and visionaries like this which drive the medium. We should be mindful as a community to not push too hard back when titles do not live up to our frequently unrealistic expectations and instead attempt to offer constructive critique and make more allowances for shortcomings which will inevitably happen when developers and artists set sights on the uncharted waters of progress.

I personally hope Murray does go on Geoff's show; it would be fitting on multiple levels and I believe the subject would be handled appropriately.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Goeff you get Sean in there and give a fantastic interview that isn't just PR questions and you've got yourself a subscriber. I want him to answer hard questions and not just try to charm himself out of it.

 

[sazzy]

The developers are from the same town as Molyneux?
...

Not only that, but half of the team at Hello Games have worked at Lionhead Studios.

At least that's what they say on their Twitter profiles.

 

[lebowski4ever]

thankgod i rented nms and did not buy it. i would have been furious...happy murray is being investigated tho.

 

[Chabbles]

They should cash in and make it a pay-per-view interview. Set the date and the price and im in.

 

[UrbanRats]

Explains a lot. Instead of being open to constructive criticism, Murray chose to just marinate in his narcissistic megalomania.

That's a lot to extrapolate from one tiny quote.

 

[Jumeira]

Sean deserves all the flak he's getting, he was not under pressure to say the things he did, he lied with the full understanding that his game does not offer the things he agreed to. Traits of a weasel, the fact that he's in hiding is more proof of that fact.

 

[Balb]

I'd gain a lot of respect for Geoff if he could make this interview happen, and if he could conduct it in a way that's hard-hitting but not combative. Hope this happens.

 

[Alienous]

The developers are from the same town as Molyneux?
...

.

 

[JaseC]

One of the Sony cert requirements for retail is 60 dollars. It can be waived, but only if they feel like (like a lot with cert) or was it Microsoft >.>. Well, at least one of them have that.

Do you have a source? Sony wasn't the publisher here, only a distribution and marketing partner -- Hello Games owns the game itself and the NMS IP, and self-publishes across all digital services, PSN included. I find it hard to believe Sony had the final say vis-a-vis pricing given that it didn't fund development. Not to mention that there are many <$60 indie games on the PS4 with retail releases -- Aragami, for example. It seems to me that you're adding 2 and 2 but coming up with 5.

 

[Timedog]

Suddenly I want to buy joe danger 2 at full price for some reason.

I hope Sean disappears for 10 years and emerges with a new game better than super Metroid.

 

[Ceadeus]

First time I literally trew 90$CAN directly to the trash.

 

[Jacksinthe]

I'd gain a lot of respect for Geoff if he could make this interview happen, and if he could conduct it in a way that's hard-hitting but not combative. Hope this happens.

Guy deserves a lot of respect, as-is.

Nothing changes from me if he can't make this happen. Geoff is a solid guy that genuinely loves the industry.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

I would love to see Geoff wear a Fable t-shirt and Sean wearing a Mountain Dew hat during the interview.

 

[Balb]

Guy deserves a lot of respect, as-is.

Nothing changes from me if he can't make this happen. Geoff is a solid guy that genuinely loves the industry.

Yeah I wasn't slighting Geoff, I was just saying I'd gain a lot of respect for him if he could make it happen because candid interviews are pretty rare in games journalism.

 

[Alienous]

Can we get a poll thread?

"Next time we see Sean Murray will he have shaven his beard?".

These are the questions we should really be asking. Methinks he'll be humbly shaven.

 

[Elandyll]

One of the Sony cert requirements for retail is 60 dollars. It can be waived, but only if they feel like (like a lot with cert) or was it Microsoft >.>. Well, at least one of them have that.

There's been several PS4 indie retail titles, even published by Sony, under $60.
I doubt very much they can force a 3rd party publisher to set their price at $60, and here Keighley himself says that Sean M was pushing back at the idea the game shouldn't be $60.
And frankly, all being said, the price isn't the problem here. If the game had delivered 100% on its promises, be a 90%+ critical darling, and be mostly bug free, you would still have a fringe complaining about the price, "because it's an indie".

 

[SomTervo]

I remember in an interview near release, Sean said something along the lines of the title not being fully realized until after a few content updates. Maybe naively, I hope that this is true. As disappointed as I am with the game I think it does have promise.

I've never had such mixed feelings for a game before in my life. There's moments in NMS that I haven't experienced since SM64, but knowing there's hardly any depth despite that fact makes it that much more disappointing.

You got a source for your first paragraph statement? I'm sure if Murray is on record saying that the quote would have been trotted out a lot.

 

[TheGuardian]

One of the Sony cert requirements for retail is 60 dollars. It can be waived, but only if they feel like (like a lot with cert) or was it Microsoft >.>. Well, at least one of them have that.

That's absolutely not true, Sony does not meddle with the prices the publishers wish for their product. In fact, there's plenty of first and third party games below 60.

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

he uploaded just that part of the livestream

https://youtu.be/6O3NyNHpMx0

 

[legacyzero]

Explains a lot. Instead of being open to constructive criticism, Murray chose to just marinate in his narcissistic megalomania.

This has been my complaint with Sean Murray since the game's reveal. He kept simultaneously pitching the universe, but rather than tell us what it is, he spent more time telling us what it isn't. He kept living in his own cage, refusing to let the game have potential in all it's aspects, so much so that it couldn't have potential in ANY of it's aspects.

I followed the game since day one, even creating a YouTube channel with NMS as it's focus, and got pretty hyperbolic over it, but even still, I couldn't help but feel a bit of contempt for Sean's bullish insistence on limiting the game in almost every way.

I still enjoy the game, however. I have well into 130 hours play time, and can fully agree that Early Access would have been a better framing. NMS is the foundation. Not the house.

I can only hope they keep their promises, win back loyalty through some kind of effort, though with each passing day, the community is becoming more and more over it.

They really did fuck this all up pretty damn bad.

 

[Piers]

Confirmed: Everyone from Guildford, England lie

 

[esmith08734]

So what do you all think this means for Sean and Hello Games, ultimately? Where does their career(s) go from here?

 

[Angry Fork]

> NMS is a stunning achievement and tireless sacrifice was made to bring it to life
...
> NMS is unfinished and repetitive and I told you so Sean Murray

Dorito Pope Journalism.

nobody cares how hard an artist (or anyone else) tries or how grand their intentions. we, as a society, for better or worse, reward results, not effort.

in the context of NMS i feel like if Kieghly wants to criticise the game for being misleading then he should do that without qualification. but he won't because he's not, seemingly, interested in that story at the expense of his relationship with Sean Murray. Ergo, Dorito Pope Journalism.

It's called not being an asshole to people who spent 2-3 years of their lives, and many 12-14+ hour days, on something they thought would be great. It's just a game it's not that big of a deal you act like these people are bankers.

Keighley simultaneously criticizing the game while recognizing their effort is respectful and reasonable to anyone who has a heart and see's real people behind games instead of machines making a product.

 

[Jacksinthe]

It's called not being an asshole to people who spent 2-3 years of their lives, and many 12-14+ hour days, on something they thought would be great. It's just a game it's not that big of a deal you act like these people are bankers.

Keighley simultaneously criticizing the game while recognizing their effort is respectful and reasonable to anyone who has a heart and see's real people behind games instead of machines making a product.

A) You are on a gaming forum. This is where games are discussed.

B) Right? The game was free, why complain? It's not like the folks that lied ran away with bags of cash. How silly of everyone to get down on such a small team for their good hearts. Intentions are greater than results, always!

Spoiler

/s

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

Not only that, but half of the team at Hello Games have worked at Lionhead Studios.

At least that's what they say on their Twitter profiles.

'Its happening again'

 

[PdotMichael]

It's called not being an asshole to people who spent 2-3 years of their lives, and many 12-14+ hour days, on something they thought would be great. It's just a game it's not that big of a deal you act like these people are bankers.

Keighley simultaneously criticizing the game while recognizing their effort is respectful and reasonable to anyone who has a heart and see's real people behind games instead of machines making a product.

So people worked hard on something meaningless. And suddenly other people aren't allowed to be critical about it?

 

[shintoki]

Not only that, but half of the team at Hello Games have worked at Lionhead Studios.

At least that's what they say on their Twitter profiles.

That is actually pretty funny.

 

[chubigans]

nobody cares how hard an artist (or anyone else) tries or how grand their intentions. we, as a society, for better or worse, reward results, not effort.

in the context of NMS i feel like if Kieghly wants to criticise the game for being misleading then he should do that without qualification. but he won't because he's not, seemingly, interested in that story at the expense of his relationship with Sean Murray. Ergo, Dorito Pope Journalism.

Man, this is the stupidest thing I've read this week. You can be critical of something without resorting to angry internet memes. That's, like, normal.

Honestly, your post terrifies me if you think this kind of journalism is irregular. It sounds like you feed off of YouTube drama kids, and that's a dangerous road to go down.

 

[Panajev2001a]

That is actually pretty funny.

Well Guildford is home to both studios so that is normal I'd guess.

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

Not only that, but half of the team at Hello Games have worked at Lionhead Studios.

At least that's what they say on their Twitter profiles.

lol wow

 

[eyeball_kid]

Can you point out to me on a doll where Sony touched you?

People have already told you (in previous threads) that Sony was only acting as the physical distributor for NMS (on PS4), and that Hello Games is officially both Developer and Publisher. Everything they have done is entirely on them.

All Sony did was make sure it didn't brick PS4s, and print physical disks.

No, Sony wasn't just a distributor. Sony required Sean to do press events (I remember Sean complaining about this) and marketed the hell out of the game. You think an indie developer would've ever been on Colbert without Sony's marketing machine? Not a chance.

Sony was also directly involved with NMS development in that Sony staff handled the QA. It was only post-release that Hello hired their own QA team.

 

[xevis]

It's called not being an asshole to people who spent 2-3 years of their lives, and many 12-14+ hour days, on something they thought would be great. It's just a game it's not that big of a deal you act like these people are bankers.

Keighley simultaneously criticizing the game while recognizing their effort is respectful and reasonable to anyone who has a heart and see's real people behind games instead of machines making a product.

If he wants to claim the game is incomplete and misleading and that Sean Murray is responsible serious ethical breaches then he should do that. If he wants to stay in bed with his mates then it's best he not touch the topic at all. You can't half-ass criticism and not look like a hack.

Man, this is the stupidest thing I've read this week. You can be critical of something without resorting to angry internet memes. That's, like, normal.

Honestly, your post terrifies me if you think this kind of journalism is irregular. It sounds like you feed off of YouTube drama kids, and that's a dangerous road to go down.

Who said anything about angry memes? All I'm saying is that if there's a public interest story here about potential misconduct then the topic should be addressed seriously and critically. Softball Q&A between mates isn't that. You can be respectful and professional without sucking up to the person you're supposedly criticising.

There's an interesting analogue to this from the world of cycling at the moment. Reporter David Walsh spent lots of time with Team Sky in 2013 but when recently leaked documents showed their riders may have been abusing Therapeutic Use Exemptions to legally dope, he didn't pull any punches (since there's a paywall, here's another site summarising that article)

 

[rubes7844]

I hope Sean gets ran out of the industry after letting fans out to dry.

 

[PtM]

Sure (although between saying he is a megalomaniac narcissist and con artist), I think we are still exaggerating , but if Geoff can only speak up months after the product went on sale... it also tells you something about the state of games journalism too and its independence from the game publishers.

No, it tells you that Keighley values people more than stories.

It's called not being an asshole to people who spent 2-3 years of their lives, and many 12-14+ hour days, on something they thought would be great. It's just a game it's not that big of a deal you act like these people are bankers.

Keighley simultaneously criticizing the game while recognizing their effort is respectful and reasonable to anyone who has a heart and see's real people behind games instead of machines making a product.

So people worked hard on something meaningless. And suddenly other people aren't allowed to be critical about it?

Go back to school.

 

[Deadbeat]

Not only that, but half of the team at Hello Games have worked at Lionhead Studios.

At least that's what they say on their Twitter profiles.

Layers of an onion.

 

[eyeball_kid]

There's an interesting analogue to this from the world of cycling at the moment. Reporter David Walsh spent lots of time with Team Sky in 2013 but when recently leaked documents showed their riders may have been abusing Therapeutic Use Exemptions to legally dope, he didn't pull any punches (since there's a paywall, here's another site summarising that article)

Not really. Walsh is a reporter; being embedded doesn't change his neutrality of his subject matter. Keighley is a promoter and advocate more than he is a journalist. He invited Sean to show a NMS trailer at VGX. That moment started the hype machine for the game. So Keighley is intrinsically linked with the game's journey and is a big reason why we are even talking about it now. It's impossible for him to be an unbiased journalist on this matter because he's part of the story.

Sean is not going to come on the show if Keighley plays attack dog. And that's not Keighley's style anyway. He tells it like it is on occasion, but he's not the kind of guy to go into full YouTube outrage mode, especially not when he shares some blame for the expectations and hype surrounding NMS. I believe that since Keighley mentioned October, Sean has already agreed to come on prior to Keighley's speech. Geoff probably told him he'd be tough but fair, and is giving him an opportunity to tell his side of the story without Keighley participating in damage control. Keighley has his own rep and brand to protect.

 

[Pestilence11]

The end of October so he can finish counting his units received first.

 

[newtypepilot]

Sean to appear on Geoff's show after being completely radio silent since the game's launch? yeah right....

The guy's a liar, a con artist. He has ruined not only his reputation, but also the image of Hello Games.

 

[xevis]

Not really. Walsh is a reporter; being embedded doesn't change his neutrality of his subject matter.

I'd say being embedded has the potential to affect a reporter's neutrality and even if doesn't it can certainly raises questions about potential conflicts of interest. One of the first criticisms when the Team Sky TUE scandal broke was aimed at David Walsh who assured everyone how clean they were. He even wrote a book about it. In some sense he was also part of the story. Which is why his article in the Sunday Times is so good. He pulls no punches, regardless of his past history with the team.

Keighley is a promoter and advocate more than he is a journalist. He invited Sean to show a NMS trailer at VGX. That moment started the hype machine for the game. So Keighley is intrinsically linked with the game's journey and is a big reason why we are even talking about it now. It's impossible for him to be an unbiased journalist on this matter because he's part of the story.

Sean is not going to come on the show if Keighley plays attack dog. And that's not Keighley's style anyway. He tells it like it is on occasion, but he's not the kind of guy to go into full YouTube outrage mode, especially not when he shares some blame for the expectations and hype surrounding NMS. I believe that since Keighley mentioned October, Sean has already agreed to come on prior to Keighley's speech. Geoff probably told him he'd be tough but fair, and is giving him an opportunity to tell his side of the story without Keighley participating in damage control. Keighley has his own rep and brand to protect.

Super interesting context. If your reading is right it seems unlikely anything eye-opening will come out of this. Just two mates doing damage control, right? We need a bingo card for this interview. Here's a few squares to get us going:

 

[eyeball_kid]

I'd say being embedded has the potential to affect a reporter's neutrality and even if doesn't it can certainly raises questions about potential conflicts of interest. One of the first criticisms when the Team Sky TUE scandal broke was aimed at David Walsh who assured everyone how clean they were. He even wrote a book about it. In some sense he was also part of the story. Which is why his article in the Sunday Times is so good. He pulls no punches, regardless of his past history with the team.

Fair enough. I should have said that being embedded doesn't automatically affect a reporter's neutrality. But it certainly has the potential, as was the case with the Iraq war reporters.

Super interesting context. If your reading is right it seems unlikely anything eye-opening will come out of this. Just two mates doing damage control, right? We need a bingo card for this interview. Here's a few squares to get us going:

I think how wide the eyes open depends upon Sean's willingness to repair the damage done by being honest and forthcoming. I don't think any of us can know. I remain open-minded. I'm not sure Keighley and Sean are exactly mates; it sounds like there was a lot of friction between them as time went on. What I meant by "tough but fair" is that I think Keighley will probably be direct in his questions to Sean, but he's not going to set the tone of the interview as a public trial. Keighley seems like a classy guy and will treat Sean with respect, but won't throw him softball questions, either.

 

[Quote]

These are my feelings on the segment that are cross-posted from the episode launch thread:


The No Man's Sky segment really rubbed me the wrong way but it's hard to put my finger on why. I guess I don't know if this is the right way to distance yourself, throwing others under the bus when you have a hand in issue (regardless of the transparency) and obtaining street cred at the cost of others.

I also think if Sean wants to say something, he should use any of the other avenues available to him and not schedule around someone else's show. Is this an advertisement to tuuuuuune in next time, or an genuine attempt to mend?

The whole thing seemed exploitative and opportunistic. It sounds like everyone else loved it though, so ¯|_(&#12484_/¯