developers focus more on a steady 30fps and better IQ
30 to 60FPS Pro upgrades will be very rare
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FFXV might receive additional PS4 Pro support post launch
- Thread starter Exentryk
- Start date
30 to 60FPS Pro upgrades will be very rare
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Lmao this got a laugh outta me
I must be in crazy world where increasing resolution doesn't count as an "actual graphical improvement'. I still remember 600p video games from last gen.
No, because the game would be cpu bound, not gpu bound at anything above 30 frames.
Huh thats what everyone saying?
DangerMouse
Member
Alcahest
Member
You certainly got a point. And it sucks :S
OMG, I swear some in here are distorting what I say on purpose. XD
Some were claiming there will be additional graphical improvements to FFXV's 4K mode, like better lighting, textures, draw distance and stuff like that. This were the graphical improvements we were talking about.
No one said that 4K wasn't a considerable improvement over 1080p or actually sub 1080p in the case of FFXV on regular PS4.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Horizon does have better quality textures in the PS4 Pro version. It's not just higher resolution and HDR.
illmatic22
Banned
I AM OFFENDED! I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT I AM! SOMEONE GONNA PAY FOR WHATEVER THIS IS
I meant no disrespect. Your quote made it sound like you didn't count a bump in resolution as a real improvement based on your whole "moving goal posts" dialogue about "real graphical improvements". If that's not what you meant, then that's not what you meant, and I apologize.
LordKasual
Banned
Well, we can no longer really quip on the graphics since the game looks great now.
So i guess this is the new XV outrage until it releases.
I can live with that!
So i guess this is the new XV outrage until it releases.
I can live with that!
Alright.
Yes, it was about graphical improvements (lighting, textures, LOD) in addition to 4K resolution.Tabata clearly said it himself and we see it with other games on Pro too. Tomb Raider and Paragon will only get the mentioned graphical improvements in their 1080p Pro mode. 4K Pro mode will bump up the resolution but not have additional graphical improvements.
According to what Guerilla Games said, Horizon's 4K mode will also not include additional graphical improvements.
So, it's either 4K or all graphical bells and whistles. But you can't have both on PS4 Pro.
DangerMouse
Member
Seconding what jackdoe said I meant no disrespect, but c'mon man to be fair you practically called it a placebo that the game has any enhancement other than 4K HDR and said journos were just seeing what they wanted despite being the only ones to see it live in person that sounds like saying it's not a considerable improvement, pulled out your gif, and then saying 4K isn't graphical improvement in another post. And Kagari pointed out too that the enhancements will indeed enhance draw distance which is something more. Pretty easy to potentially read your multiple posts wrong just like he said. My issue from the start as I said was with how definitive you were being that there's absolutely nothing besides rendering and hdr when even Tabata is not that definitive when he says they can do more.
Meanwhile HDR will by definition potentially enhance lighting, and since their lighting is real-time HDR plus IQ improvement might make the lighting look better even if it's not "technically improved." And technically since it's real-time we don't really know that they can't have done some minor things.
Some people are going a bit crazy in this thread.
First of all why don't you wait until they announce a final list of the improvements like other developers are doing instead of prentending to know already everything based on a generic answer? Tabata is only saying that they don't have the time to fully retool the game for PS4 Pro specs as if they were developing the game for that console specifically and they'll look into that post launch. But he's not giving any detail at all, he's neither confirming nor denying any specific extra feature. So objectively at this point it's just a wait and see situation.
Second thing, the biggest issues that FFXV had anyway in Duscae and Platinum demo (before they downgraded the game in the Gamescom master version and re-upgraded it in the extra weeks they got with the delay) were the poor image quality and blurriness hiding the quality of the textures and assets plus some frame rate issues.
On the Pro they can make a 4K HDR mode and a locked 1080p mode with better frame rate (compared to the dynamic sub full HD res they got in the basic version) without touching anything else and that alone will fix the key issues and will make the rest shine.
So the point is not changing at all, best version of the game this year will be on the Pro, so why some are reacting as if they said that the game will just run in compatibility mode on the Pro when that is not the case?
First of all why don't you wait until they announce a final list of the improvements like other developers are doing instead of prentending to know already everything based on a generic answer? Tabata is only saying that they don't have the time to fully retool the game for PS4 Pro specs as if they were developing the game for that console specifically and they'll look into that post launch. But he's not giving any detail at all, he's neither confirming nor denying any specific extra feature. So objectively at this point it's just a wait and see situation.
Second thing, the biggest issues that FFXV had anyway in Duscae and Platinum demo (before they downgraded the game in the Gamescom master version and re-upgraded it in the extra weeks they got with the delay) were the poor image quality and blurriness hiding the quality of the textures and assets plus some frame rate issues.
On the Pro they can make a 4K HDR mode and a locked 1080p mode with better frame rate (compared to the dynamic sub full HD res they got in the basic version) without touching anything else and that alone will fix the key issues and will make the rest shine.
So the point is not changing at all, best version of the game this year will be on the Pro, so why some are reacting as if they said that the game will just run in compatibility mode on the Pro when that is not the case?
LowParry
Member
Yo. That's crazy. Why would you even do that?
I know... I know. I have a problem... *bites knuckle..
I just hope they also tweak some pre-existing features.
Some examples of things that could be adjusted(obviously not all of these at once with the time constraints they have).
Things that would need a future patch and a lot more work:
Some examples of things that could be adjusted(obviously not all of these at once with the time constraints they have).
- Foliage draw distance and/or density.
- Shadow draw distance.
- The draw distances of different LOD levels.
- Shadow quality.
Things that would need a future patch and a lot more work:
- Better textures
- Better geometry(ie. improve the weird lumpy mountains in the starting location)
- Better lighting/post processing(requires both technical and artistic work)
- Better materials (I feel metal materials are kinda lacking right now compared to other PBR pipelines)
- Better water (they had some super amazing dynamic tessellating water tech that appears to have been mostly scrapped due to performance)
DangerMouse
Member
So you want a remaster...
Base PS4 version is fine for me, will get the definitive version for PC when it releases. I'm not surprised the game is getting boosts for the Pro, if there's a franchise that would sell the Pro to the jRPG crowd, FFXV is it.
It's mildly funny because many of us bought PS4s specifically for XV and the promise of, and now coincidentally a new and improved PS4 launches when the game is finally due for release. Lesson learned, Sony! Never again.
It's mildly funny because many of us bought PS4s specifically for XV and the promise of, and now coincidentally a new and improved PS4 launches when the game is finally due for release. Lesson learned, Sony! Never again.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
Do we know yet if the checkerboard 4K downsampling for 1080p users is automatic in titles or does the developer have to explicitly allow the user to enable it?
Also, I imagine since it is still technically sending 4K levels of detail, the downsampling itself would still theoretically require HDMI 2.0 cable and display?
In fact -- is downsampling just a theoretical application of PS4 Pro for 1080p users at this time? Did Sony officially announce that it could be done, or was that just enthusiast reactions speculating on various methods of the PS4 Pro's capabilities?
I'd love to have downsampling on day 1 on my 1080p display, but I feel like it will only be used for native 4K displays unless the developer offers a specific option to enable the downsample on 1080p displays.
Also, I imagine since it is still technically sending 4K levels of detail, the downsampling itself would still theoretically require HDMI 2.0 cable and display?
In fact -- is downsampling just a theoretical application of PS4 Pro for 1080p users at this time? Did Sony officially announce that it could be done, or was that just enthusiast reactions speculating on various methods of the PS4 Pro's capabilities?
I'd love to have downsampling on day 1 on my 1080p display, but I feel like it will only be used for native 4K displays unless the developer offers a specific option to enable the downsample on 1080p displays.
What would the game render at if not 'enabled' by the user?
There are obviously games that only have one pro mode in checkerboard rendering, they are not going to disable pro mode entirely just because you have a lower resolution TV.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
Maybe I phrased it poorly. Apologies if I'm seeming completely weird.
I do know that Sony assures devs that their checkboarding technique doesn't take up additional resources for rendering -- it has a custom hardware-based solution that handles it. Is it just enabled at ALL TIMES if you're using a PS4 Pro, no matter what display you're using?
I seem to be of the understanding that the checkerboard upscale will only be in effect if you're outputting to a 4K display by default, and if you're using a 1080p display, everything either renders at stock PS4 level unless the dev allows the checkerboard technique to be used as a downsample for 1080p output.
So, I'm just trying to clarify -- despite not requiring any additional rendering power according to Sony, is checkerboarding ALWAYS active when using a PS4 Pro, or does it have to be toggled on in the system menu by selecting your output to 4K (or perhaps Automatic, which will recognize 4K potential from the display)?
Just asking clarification here, not asserting anything in particular. I just can't recall Sony specifically saying that all content played on a 1080p display will automatically be checkerboard-rendered and then downsampled to 1080p output. I think I only heard Digital Foundry and a few other tech sources cite is as one possibly visual enhancement from the Pro spec outside of the 4K/HDR output when it comes to 1080p displays.
I was also curious of HDMI 1.4 can handle a downsampled checkerboarded 4K image or if HDMI 2.0 is required. I feel like the same amount of data is still being transferred, just displayed at a lower resolution, yes?
No, it's entirely up to the devs whether to implement it. There may end up being some Pro games that render at 1080p, and are upscaled (normally) to 4k.
Lol, i don't know what you are saying with all of that, but basically checkerboard rendering is a choice by developer, it has to be implemented just like any other viable pro mode.
But if there is only one pro mode, there is no 'defaulting to base PS4 game level' because of what TV you have. That only applies if there is no pro patch.
You will get the benefits of the pro mode regardless of what TV you've got at all times.
Damerman
Member
this. exactly this.
the only reason why i was jumping ship to ps4 pro was because of FFXV.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
Ok, that's what I thought and basically the definitive answer I was trying to clarify, which means unless Square-Enix enables it as a downsample technique in FFXV (not likely, I think it will be a normal-upscale title as you mentioned), my Pro does nothing for me in terms of additional gain for FFXV image quality and performance.
Gotcha.
I believe it was Digital Foundry's PlayStation Meeting vlog that kind of suggested one theoretical IQ gain for 1080p users would be to checkerboard-upscale and then downsample that image output to a 1080p space for additional IQ (basically, "fake" the 4K output and then space it back down to 1080p -- like a rendering "inception" of sorts), particular when it came to addressing aliasing. I was more or less wondering if FFXV might do this, but I would guess not considering how little they've considered the Pro spec according to these interview bits. I may have also just completely misunderstood what they were getting at, but that was my interpretation.
None of these are that tall of an order. Much of the technical aspects are just effects/features they were forced to scale back on or cut. So it would largely be just reincorporating old cut features and cranking up existing features.
Whether it comes with the Pro or with the PC version, I effectively want what Rockstar did with their PC release of GTAV. Much like GTAV on PS3/360, FFXV is a marvel of optimization and approximation. It's impressive what they managed, but it's clear that they both wanted to do more and that they HAVE more just sitting on the cutting room floor. One need not look further than any of the 2014 footage to see examples.
And even if Square did elect to actually put in some R&D time and create special new features for PS4Pro/Scorpio/PC, it actually would be pretty valuable as they would typically do these things for throwaway tech demos like Agni's Philosophy as opposed to shipping products that actively bring in revenue.
We don't really know what Square is or is not doing for the Pro at the moment.
The key here is that the comments that have come out are talking about taking full advantage of the hardware, which is vague actually. They could be implementing checkerboard rendering (and hence possibly downsampling from that for 1080p TVs), have a smoother framerate, and have better AA etc, and could still consider that not taking full advantage of the pro hardware because the hardware is capable of so much more if they properly developed for it.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Dont know why anyone is expecting 60fps for the pro version
So is it confirmed that downscaling from checkerboard 4K mode to lower resolutions (1080P) have to be enabled by the developer first?
I was unsure of that point but if true then that's really unfortunate. The pro should be able to do that automatically without developer input.
That's too simplified an outlook. A lot of that stuff are things like UE4's voxel cone tracing lighting tech. THey arent just going to bring it back exactly how it was, that implementation is gone and never coming back, even if they were to come out with another more refined iteration of the technology.
A lot of things like Watch Dogs, for example, show up in beta and are scrapped and relegated to the garbage heap, and it takes a lot of effort to bring that back and work it into a game, let alone an already established game with the system they replaced it with already fully optimized.
Damerman
Member
this is massively disappointing.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
This section is what I was talking about.
Theoretically, even on a 1080p display, the PS4 Pro can use the checkerboard technique to produce that 4K upscaled image, but then downsample it back down to 1080p to perhaps take advantage of the usual downsampling perks, like increased anti-aliasing.
This is more or less what I was trying to reference in theoretical application with FFXV. It sounds like the game is going to upscale to 4K -- whether or not it uses the onboard checkerboard technique is another question, I suppose -- but for 1080p users, I was wondering if the downsample might be available automatically or if Square-Enix would have to allow users to toggle it on.
In any case, I feel I've actually gotten my answer -- we don't know.
Theoretically, even on a 1080p display, the PS4 Pro can use the checkerboard technique to produce that 4K upscaled image, but then downsample it back down to 1080p to perhaps take advantage of the usual downsampling perks, like increased anti-aliasing.
This is more or less what I was trying to reference in theoretical application with FFXV. It sounds like the game is going to upscale to 4K -- whether or not it uses the onboard checkerboard technique is another question, I suppose -- but for 1080p users, I was wondering if the downsample might be available automatically or if Square-Enix would have to allow users to toggle it on.
In any case, I feel I've actually gotten my answer -- we don't know.
[
It is not confirmed, and generally speaking, people are just speculating about things they don't know about.
Nobody said anything definitively on these subjects.
"Properly developed for it" in what way? They are under no obligation to make an entire nother sku's worth of optimization for Pro just to sell Sony's iterative hardware.
Cerny said in his interview a few days ago that they wanted to make sure with Pro that it only took a small fraction of the effort of optimizing for the base PS4 game to optimize for Pro, and they knew going in that devs would want minimal effort in optimizing for the pro.
What your asking for is a remaster of the entire game when that likely isn't even in the budget after they ship the main one.
What FF game has ever been 60fps? And what open world game has ever been 60fps on PS4 to begin with? MGS5? That's it?
We've had the pro specs for more than 8 months at this point. We should be understanding how things work by now.
It is not confirmed, and generally speaking, people are just speculating about things they don't know about.
Nobody said anything definitively on these subjects.
"Properly developed for it" in what way? They are under no obligation to make an entire nother sku's worth of optimization for Pro just to sell Sony's iterative hardware.
Cerny said in his interview a few days ago that they wanted to make sure with Pro that it only took a small fraction of the effort of optimizing for the base PS4 game to optimize for Pro, and they knew going in that devs would want minimal effort in optimizing for the pro.
What your asking for is a remaster of the entire game when that likely isn't even in the budget after they ship the main one.
What FF game has ever been 60fps? And what open world game has ever been 60fps on PS4 to begin with? MGS5? That's it?
We've had the pro specs for more than 8 months at this point. We should be understanding how things work by now.
Wasn't going to happen with the current CPU.
You were never, ever going to get that. In this thread people are on both sides of the spectrum. Expecting too much and at times, too little.
Yeah, don't put words in my mouth. I'm not asking for anything here.
"Properly developed" as in taking full advantage of as in fully optimized, exactly what I said in my post. I never said they were obligated and that they need to do that. I was just explaining that the pro patch could have 4k checkerboard rendering (and downsampling for 1080p TVs) and a smoother framerate, but could still be considered not taking full advantage of the Pro's power because it's capable of much more than that if fully optimized for. That's it. Nothing more.
R3birthFl4me
Neo Member
The only thing Pro of FFXV on the new PS4 is me in Frog Status kicking everyone's ass from the beginning of the game until the end.
Damerman
Member
how is 1080p 60fps not manageable, if it can do 4k at 30?
It can't do native 4K at that fidelity.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
It can't do 4K/30. The 4K is not a truly native render. The checkerboard technique is a hardware upscale that takes a lower-res image and, in very simple terms, replicates some pixels out to fill a 4K space. The Pro is nowhere near powerful enough to do full 4K resolution in the majority of triple A titles, but it can handle native 4K on smaller, less-demanding titles.
Mediking
Member
YOU?!?!?!?! Whoa, whoa. I might be wrong... but arent you... a insider????
It depends on the reason the technology was cut.
UE4's SVOGI got cut because it wasn't viable for games this generation(barring edge cases like Tomorrow Children).
In the case of FFXV's Light Propagation Volumes(dynamic GI) was cut because it wouldn't be viable for their game. LPV is a very memory intensive technique, and probably wouldn't be worth another attempt because the scale of the world would make it insanely difficult. New R&D for GI techniques would be better, but way out of the scope of a Pro patch. MIGHT be okay for PC as it's a separate source of revenue, but new GI techniques are probably better suited for a full game's budget(or middleware licensing).
But there are other features that did work well for their game that was cut because of optimization reasons (ie. the better water). FFXV's water used a really standard technique Fast Fourier Transforms to create it's 3D water. Many shipped titles have similar implementations. In that case its at least viable to reintroduce that type of feature as the PS4Pro/Scorpio/PC have a much better chance at running them.
To be fair, yes, reintroducing features into a codebase isn't trivial. But at the end of the day, for features like the water. They have a working version of that feature. So whether they reintegrate the original codebase, or reimplement the same technique from the ground up with their fancy new task scheduler in mind, the R&D side is done.
That's what I meant by "not that tall an order". That being said, the ultimate constraint is time and money, which is what I meant by:
I'm of the opinion that this effort is valuable if they intend to continue using the engine. Which I'd personally like to see. If FFXV is the "FF7" of Luminous, I want to see the "FF8 and FF9". Clearly FFXV, much like FF7, couldn't maximize the potential of its technology as it's the first time Square is making a game in this style, so it'd be nice to see some games made that refine the tech FFXV brought to the table.
I highly doubt they'd continue using Luminous and given all the issues they've had with it I don't know why you'd like to see them use it again when far superior engines exist out there that they're already using on other projects.