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Waypoint: I Hope ‘The Last of Us Part II’ is Super Gay (Spoilers)

I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Wedzi said:
I definitely picked on the queer lady feel the author had felt as well; the clothes, the guitar, even the tattoo. I feel like Naughty Dog has the writing chops to do it well without venturing into the realm of relying on stereotypes but still being able to invoke details that can flesh out her characters sexuality. Really looking forward to see how this shapes up, if not for just being a great game but also because I don't think any major games have really spear headed these kind of topics before.
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I hope the butch stereotype also dies eventually as well.

Girls can dress however they want without having to be labeled in a specific group just from their appearance.

Elie is a killer with tons of PTSD and mental issues, who much doesn't care about her appearance, and generally can wear whatever she wants as a woman surviving in a post apocalyptic world that has no mind for distinctions between male and female fashion.
 
M

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Being gay is pretty normalized; there is a ton of representation in the media these days in shows, movies, music, etc.
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And yet, I'm not seeing video games on that list.

Normalization isn't a simple checklist box you can use to say 'yep, we're done here'.

Boiling the character down to one aspect is the opposite of creating a good character with depth and would short change the character they've already established.
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There is absolutely a difference in 'having a character train be present and noted as part of that character's traits' and 'having that character literally only being about said one trait'.

If anyone seriously thinks that people are saying 'Ellie HAS to prove she's gay in the most biggest way possible to make it super clear', I can't tell if they're being deliberately obtuse, or just missing the point.
 
S

Steel

Banned
ultron87 said:
Please just don't make the story about the girlfriend she found in-between games getting killed in the first hour and then Ellie going on a revenge spree.
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Yeah, that'd be pretty bad. But we all know some major character is gonna die within the first hour or so. Wouldn't mind if it's Joel, personally.
 
M

Mr. Smiley

Member
would "Press Square to kiss your Wife" be considered super heterosexual? Cause if there's an equivalent for Ellie, I'm reinterested in the series right there.
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
synce said:
I see Ellie with Joel over another woman, she's bi at most. It's stupid to focus on that stuff in a game though, leave it to the players imagination.
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First off, what the fuck is wrong with you with that first part.

Second, they literally had an entire DLC showing Ellie is gay

Third, screw off with the bolded.
 
M

Mikeside

Member
as far as the story of TLOU and TLOU 2 are concerned I don't care if Ellie is gay, straight, asexual or whatever so long as her character stays three dimensional. If being a lesbian is one facet of that character, great (and I have no reason to think ND can't write that well enough). I don't care either way, though.

As far as making a game with a lead gay character is concerned, be it TLOU or any other game, that can only be a good thing. ESPECIALLY because it's Naughty Dog, who have the best chance to write it with tact and respect to the fact that sexuality is just a part of a person, not the defining characteristic (see: Bill, Joel, Nate, whatever - their sexualities are all known and affect the story but aren't THE THING ABOUT THAT CHARACTER)
 
A

Alienous

Member
I hope not.

The Last of Us was really good at being natural about gay characters. I think entertainment media can sometimes create caricatures in an attempt to highlight their progressiveness, instead of just having great characters who happen to be gay.
 
J

Joeku

Member
Sizzel said:
There will be idiot brain washed "you're a white male!" SJWs who are like it is "courageous" and "brave" and "finally!, YASS!" and idiot hateful homophobes with their " not in muh game", "slurs I won't go into"... but really it is a change of pace and just is part of the character. no need to judge it positively or negatively. More interested in the Joel and Ellie interplay personally. It can be as gay or a straight as they want.
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Is it really an "SJW" thing to represent people that actually exist and play these games too? Joel and Tess certainly had a thing and that thing absolutely mattered during the Boston part of that game (built during the years prior). No reason to believe Ellie couldn't have found someone and that they might matter to her story too.

Bitch Pudding said:
I love the idea; but I fear we'll see the same bullshit / homophobic reactions like back then after the Korrasami event.
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Yeah this was a fucking shitshow in the response to it, too. Ugh.
 
E

Emperor_Uriel

Member
HellforLeather said:
Also the strange thing with this article is it seems to lean on the lazy stereotype of a lesbian with the denim shirt and guitar line....so being "super gay" would just be Ellie becoming a stereotypical lesbian?
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This.

I mean, in a world where people are concerned with making assumptions about which pronouns to use when referring to a person, can any progressive really say: "Hey, let's reinforce the notion that certain styles are automatically synonymous with a certain sexuality! Fuck femme lesbians and butch straight women, I guess!"

It certainly wouldn't be acceptable to praise a gay male character for reinforcing gay stereotypes, so I have no idea why people look upon lesbian stereotypes so fondly. Have Princess Peach or another super-femme woman come out of the closet, then we can talk about how actually progressive it is.
 
M

messiaen

Member
Skilletor said:
Because it's awesome to have representation.
Why not both? This isn't asking to sacrifice gameplay for representation.

But the way that Naughty Dog handled the gay characters in the first one tells me it'll be subtle. They didn't treat their sexual preference as a defining characteristic. They wrote it naturally, the way it should be.
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For some people their sexuality is a very big part of who they are, it's not really a one size fits all characteristic. So I wouldn't say there's a set definition of how it should be.

You can look toward photographers, especially in the 80s and 90s, sexuality was a very large part of some very prominent photographer's work.
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
HellforLeather said:
Being gay is pretty normalized; there is a ton of representation in the media these days in shows, movies, music, etc.

They've already established that Ellie is gay or bi in the previous games and she is the focus of the sequel (and arguably the focus of the original as well). So I dont understand the calls for representation that is already there.

Boiling the character down to one aspect is the opposite of creating a good character with depth and would short change the character they've already established.

Also the strange thing with this article is it seems to lean on the lazy stereotype of a lesbian with the denim shirt and guitar line....so being "super gay" would just be Ellie becoming a stereotypical lesbian?
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Considering it was written by a gay women, no.
 
K

kswiston

Member
Emperor_Uriel said:
This.

I mean, in a world where people are concerned with making assumptions about which pronouns to use when referring to a person, can any progressive really say: "Hey, let's reinforce the notion that certain styles are automatically synonymous with a certain sexuality! Fuck femme lesbians and butch straight women, I guess!"

It certainly wouldn't be acceptable to praise a gay male character for reinforcing gay stereotypes, so I have no idea why people look upon lesbian stereotypes so fondly. Have Princess Peach or another super-femme woman come out of the closet, then we can talk about how actually progressive it is.
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Femme Lesbians is mostly what we get though. The "stereotypical" ones you mention dont play into male fantasies.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
This is a world where women didn't exist except to breed and be mothers and homemakers (no female hunters, ever!), so... yeah.
 
T

The Emperor

Member
synce said:
I see Ellie with Joel over another woman, she's bi at most. It's stupid to focus on that stuff in a game though, leave it to the players imagination.
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9Qa6VfN.gif


----

Now that that's out of the way...

This would be incredible! Hopefully the hate she feels is about her lover being taken or killed. It would be great to have a lesbian leading AAA game. How I long to see this done well!!

LOL @ people saying how her being lesbian should be a subtle thing. Why exactly and what do you even mean by that?

No one is saying this game is all about her being a lesbian and a coming out story. But how would her revenge being for her wife be bad? It feels very realistic and organic. Anyway hope Naughty Dog pull this off :)
 
B

bcLand3r

Neo Member
I just hope it's not too in your face, and the subtleties are what makes the character special. If they grow on the relationship Ellie had with Riley than that would be amazing.
I mean, I know Riley's dead
but a more mature relationship than that without it being to much. Just add a bit more depth to what you have now, and you have an EXTRA special character.
 
M

Mael

Member
I think about everything around TLOU entice me more than playing the game.
Like seriously I have TLOU twice, barely touched it but everything I read about it seems awesome.
Even the topic of this thread makes me more interested in the game than actually playing it!
I guess I support them enough to have enough content provided to me even if it's not the content made by ND...
 
M

Manu

Member
The Emperor said:
This would be incredible! Hopefully the hate she feels is about her lover being taken or killed. It would be great to have a lesbian leading AAA game. How I long to see this done well!!

LOL @ people saying how her being lesbian should be a subtle thing. Why exactly and what do you even mean by that?

No one is saying this game is all about her being a lesbian and a coming out story. But how would her revenge being for her wife be bad? It feels very realistic and organic. Anyway hope Naughty Dog pull this off :)
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No. Killing one half of a gay relationship is an overplayed trope at this point. It's like gay couples can never have happy endings in fiction.

Again, even The Last of Us did it TWICE in the first game.
 
H

Heckler456

Banned
Glass Rebel said:
Why?

Why can't she just have a relationship that is also gay?

Why does there need to be "more"?
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I don't think you're understanding me right. The relationship can be "just a relationship that is gay". But the point can't be that the relationship is gay. There's a distinction there that makes sense in my head, but maybe I'm failing at explaining.

First and before all, it's as if you're making a distinction between a relationship and a gay relationship, which isn't how it works in real life. Or at least, how it SHOULDN'T work.

Secondly, I'll explain with an example. That example actually being the story DLC for The Last of Us. The main point of the story wasn't "Ellie is gay". It was about the player getting to know Ellie's friend, and going on the journey that lead to Ellie losing her. Her being romantically interested in Riley was there to amplify that main thread of the story, not just for the sake of it. And it just so happens to be one of best moments for gay characters that I've seen in gaming, easily, and even one of the better in pop culture.

So, I mean, can the plot point of "Ellie is gay" be the main crux of the story, or a major part of the narrative? Yeah, it can, but to state it simplistically, they need to make it work within the logic of the world and narrative. They need to tackle it from the starting point of Ellie as a character.

Kai Dracon said:
Nobody questions the relationship between two straight characters being important to a story, even in a video game. Even simple relationships. When Peach gives Mario a peck on the cheek, people don't say "ugh, sexuality has no place in video games unless there's a Very Good Reason For It."

The moment representation for anyone who isn't straight is mentioned, we immediately see it questioned. If Peach gave another female character a peck on the check as an affectionate reward, past experience suggests people would asking why a character's sex life matters, games are for fun, it wasn't like this in my day.

No relationships, outside casual hook-ups, are just about sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is what leads to people having personal relationships. It should be assumed that a character's sexual orientation will of course be about more than just the bald fact that they're gay, straight, bi, etc. Even if the story is simple such as "Jack rescued his girlfriend Jill, and they went home." People can be expected to assume they're off to do all the stuff people do when they're in a relationship besides just standing around telling everyone "Hello, we're heterosexuals."

When the characters are heterosexual, this assumption is usually granted. We life in a heteronormative society, so people don't even think about it. They've been taught to proceed with such an assumption. It's normal.
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I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who think like that, but I genuinely don't.

The reason for a relationship between Ellie and another person to be gay is because Ellie is gay. That's fine, that's enough of a reason. But the crux is that there has to be a reason for the relationship! You understand? It can't just be "because gay". The reason for the relationship between Bill and Frank was to show the player something more about Bill and what kind of character he is, and as a contrast to the facade he seemingly puts up for Joel. The reason for the relationship between Riley and Ellie was to amplify Ellie's loss. Hell, the reason for the relationship between Tommy and Maria was to give Tommy a reason to not take up Joel's offer, and to amplify his eventual acceptance of his offer, which in turn served to amplify the significance of Joel asking if Ellie was OK in that shoot-out.

Point being (and I know how negatively this can be construed, but I'm going to say it anyway) you don't need to go out of your way to make a statement. Like Bill and Ellie showed us, you can be subtle about it, and make it ring even truer and louder (in my opinion).

Thankfully though, given the examples I've been summing up, I don't think I'll have that much to worry about. Unless they take a 180 degree turn, they really know how to handle this kind of stuff.
 
G

GravityInsanity

Member
QuantumBro said:
He endangers the lives of innocent people in Madagascar, I guess that's better.

And yeah the epilogue showed all that treasure hidden away in his house, not in a museum.
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Actually, Rafe is responsible for endangering the people of Madagascar. As for the treasure he barely even got any from the past 3 games. If he took all the treasure as you say wouldn't he be super rich? He didn't even have enough money to get into the auction house.
 
E

Emperor_Uriel

Member
kswiston said:
Femme Lesbians is mostly what we get though. The "stereotypical" ones you mention dont play into male fantasies.
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The first part just isn't the case, in both real life and fiction. I've had plenty of queer female clients who feel they need to "code" themselves as lesbians to avoid everyone automatically assuming they're straight. "I always imagined myself wearing dresses and having long hair, but nope, not allowed to" one young woman told me.

Men can dress however they want, whether they're gay or straight, but there are few examples of lesbians who are stylistically indistinguishable from straight women and vice-versa. That limitation needs to change, not be encouraged.

To the second point, they absolutely do in video games. Devs and publishers alike have noted that nothing is more uncomfortable for male gamers than playing as a heterosexual woman who desires a man romantically. A butch lesbian is about as ideal as a playable female lead can get for them.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Emperor_Uriel said:
The first part just isn't the case, in both real life and fiction. I've had plenty of queer female clients who feel they need to "code" themselves as lesbians to avoid everyone automatically assuming they're straight. "I always imagined myself wearing dresses and having long hair, but nope, not allowed to" one young woman told me.

To the second point, they absolutely do in video games. Devs and publishers alike have noted that nothing is more uncomfortable for male gamers than playing as a heterosexual woman who desires a man romantically. A butch lesbian is about as ideal as a playable female lead can get for them.
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Deliberate coding to stick out definitely a thing for gay guys as well.
 
A

Alienous

Member
I do think there's a weird 'observer effect' with gay characters in games (and other media).

Characters are assumed straight unless they are revealed to be otherwise. So to present a gay character you have to reveal that they're gay - but this often feels unnatural because non-gay characters in the same game won't often signal their sexuality.

I think The Last of Us handled it really well. It does just enough to undermine your assumptions about a character's sexuality, but it doesn't venture into heavy-handed 'reveals' or stereotypes. I hope they maintain that in TLOU 2.
 
U

Unaha-Closp

Member
Unless its integral to the story I don't really see why it matters what anyone's sexuality is. Even then if the story was 'Elli's girlfriend was killed by some bad guys and she goes out for revenge' I still don't see it as super important that she is lesbian. By that I mean I don't care one way or the other what her sexuality is. She can be whatever she wants to be. I am cool with it. The wanting to exact revenge for pain and anguish caused on a loved one is the important part - not what gender the person is.

To be clear she can be lesbian, bisexual, straight, asexual and any other that I may not even know exist - I am cool with it. If its integral to the story - cool. If its not then that's fine but I am more interested in what is integral to the story.
 
T

The Emperor

Member
Manu said:
No. Killing one half of a gay relationship is an overplayed trope at this point. It's like gay couples can never have happy endings in fiction.

Again, even The Last of Us did it TWICE in the first game.
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I totally agree in terms of that trope. Maybe it will be Ellie and her wife's child was killed?

I hope to see a happy gay relationship at least in Uncharted : Lost Legacy maybe. I thought Chloe was bi?
 
E

Emperor_Uriel

Member
kirblar said:
Deliberate coding to stick out definitely a thing for gay guys as well.
Click to expand...

Far less though. Your average gay guy is indistinguishable from straight guys, especially after the "metrosexuality" wave that hit straight men in the 2000s.

No such "butch wave" or "androgynous wave" ever became acceptable for women. Being able to wear pants without men looking at you cockeyed was the last big breakthrough there.
 
T

Trigonometrize.

Member
I can't help but admit that I have zero interest in a love interest for Ellie as a focus. It was a cute little side story in Left Behind, but given the way the characters are going and the setting for the game, romance would be an annoying distraction to me at best.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Going off of my previous point, the more i read the article of the OP, the more i am confused.

I'm not sure i even like what the author is portraying honestly. TLOU was not about Ellie being bisexual or lesbian or whatever. It was about her relationship with Joel, which was familial.

So why should this game be about her being 'super gay'? What does that even mean? Having a female love interest as a female is not gay, dressing a certain way does not make you gay, overblown stereotypes like "butch" are old fashioned and probably should die in the new age normalized culture of progressive acceptance we are striving towards.

I may be speaking from a different place being a straight black male(and any gay or bi folk please chime in to denounce me or back me up), but would it not be more of a symbol for Ellie to be treated as a character first and a sexual orientation later?

We already have a significant issue we are already fighting with male to female preset gender roles.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
pswii60 said:
Every time this gets posted I don't understand the link between Status Quo and "it's just the way it is"??
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People who support an unfair status quo will say "that's just how things are" because to them the status quo, even a massively unfair one, is better to maintain than upset even if it would do wonders for marginalized groups and minorities. An extreme parallal would be something like going,"Boys will be boys" after a man does something horrible like sexual assault
 
O

Orayn

Member
pswii60 said:
Every time this gets posted I don't understand the link between Status Quo and "it's just the way it is"??
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The phrase Status quo literally means "in the state which," AKA "the way it is."

It's included because of how frequently people bring up arguments purely based on the current state of representation in the industry, suggesting it's completely static, got that way for a good reason and shouldn't be disturbed, etc.
 
K

kswiston

Member
Emperor_Uriel said:
The first part just isn't the case, in both real life and fiction. I've had plenty of queer female clients who feel they need to "code" themselves as lesbians to avoid everyone automatically assuming they're straight. "I always imagined myself wearing dresses and having long hair, but nope, not allowed to" one young woman told me.

Men can dress however they want, whether they're gay or straight, but there are few examples of lesbians who are stylistically indistinguishable from straight women and vice-versa. That limitation needs to change, not be encouraged.

To the second point, they absolutely do in video games. Devs and publishers alike have noted that nothing is more uncomfortable for male gamers than playing as a heterosexual woman who desires a man romantically. A butch lesbian is about as ideal as a playable female lead can get for them.
Click to expand...

I'm just talking about videogames. I admit my videogame memory isnt amazing, but the lesbian relationships that immediately come to mind (other than the topic of this thread) is the one from the Fear Effect sequel and Vanille/Fang in FF13. A lot of Bioware female characters are gay/bisexual if the player wants to take things that way, but they tend to be traditionally attractive women. Then there are the 5 billion JRPG female characters with crushes/interest in girls. Every Fire Emblem has at least one. I dont remember too many that fit a butch stereotype.

Feminine video game women in lesbian relationships is not an unexplored venue.

Edit: excuse my typos. I'm not the best at phone posting.
 
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